How will Perez perform against Max?

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Predict Perez's record against Max

Poll runs till Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:06 pm

Perez out qualifies 18-23 events, Perez finishes ahead in 18-23 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 18-23 events, Perez finishes ahead in 12-17 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 18-23 events, Perez finishes ahead in 6-11 races
1
3%
Perez out qualifies 18-23 events, Perez finishes ahead in 0-5 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 12-17 events, Perez finishes ahead in 18-23 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 12-17 events, Perez finishes ahead in 12-17 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 12-17 events, Perez finishes ahead in 6-11 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 12-17 events, Perez finishes ahead in 0-5 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 6-11 events, Perez finishes ahead in 18-23 races
1
3%
Perez out qualifies 6-11 events, Perez finishes ahead in 12-17 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 6-11 events, Perez finishes ahead in 6-11 races
7
20%
Perez out qualifies 6-11 events, Perez finishes ahead in 0-5 races
1
3%
Perez out qualifies 0-5 events, Perez finishes ahead in 18-23 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 0-5 events, Perez finishes ahead in 12-17 races
0
No votes
Perez out qualifies 0-5 events, Perez finishes ahead in 6-11 races
13
37%
Perez out qualifies 0-5 events, Perez finishes ahead in 0-5 races
12
34%
 
Total votes: 35

j man
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by j man »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 pm
I don't know... Whatever is noted on his contract, I just hope he will not be considered as the "second" driver, which is a curse in any team and quite a punishment at RBR.
That said, if he doesn't take too long to adapt to the car and if RBR listen to him and treat his side of the garage as Verstappen's, my opinion is that we may be surprised.
Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
I think this has been true in the past, I was never convinced that Vettel was getting massively preferential treatment over Webber for instance, but I think this current setup revolves more heavily around the lead driver (i.e. Verstappen) than they have done in the past. Whilst Albon is no superstar I don't think he is anywhere near as bad as this season's evidence would suggest, though I still think the team have made the right choice in replacing him. The gap between Albon/Gasly and Verstappen is surely one of the biggest gaps between team mates in recent years, and the narrative that it's because Albon and Gasly are terrible and Verstappen has god-like driving abilities doesn't wash for me, particularly given Gasly's form since his "demotion". I think Ricciardo saw that this was where the team was going when he decided to swap a race-winning car for a midfield one.

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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by Harpo »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 pm
I don't know... Whatever is noted on his contract, I just hope he will not be considered as the "second" driver, which is a curse in any team and quite a punishment at RBR.
That said, if he doesn't take too long to adapt to the car and if RBR listen to him and treat his side of the garage as Verstappen's, my opinion is that we may be surprised.
Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
Quite by chance, Vettel, who had been favoured during the Webber years, got beat by Ricciardo the year he had signed to join Ferrari...
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by Jezza13 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 pm
I don't know... Whatever is noted on his contract, I just hope he will not be considered as the "second" driver, which is a curse in any team and quite a punishment at RBR.
That said, if he doesn't take too long to adapt to the car and if RBR listen to him and treat his side of the garage as Verstappen's, my opinion is that we may be surprised.
Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
I don't think RB favoured Webber when he was beating Vettel nor did they favour Ricciardo when he was beating Verstappen though. In fact the evidence would suggest the opposite.

If you think back to Turkey 2010. Webber was leading Vettel in the WC standings yet the team clearly, & quite falsely, laid the blame for the crash in Turkey solely at Webbers feet. That day they pretty much said to Webber "Even though you're in front, Seb's our boy".

The exact same thing happened to Ricciardo in Baku after his crash with Verstappen. Cut & dry Verstappens fault yet RB, maybe learning from Turkey 2010, was smart enough to lay the blame this time on both drivers.

Think Spain 2016 & the controversial change to Ricciardo's tyre strategy which ultimately favoured Verstappen & allowed him to win his 1st GP on debut for RB and in the process becoming the youngest GP winner ever & vindicating Marko's decision to torpedo Kvyat in favour of his younger charge.

Think the 1st series of Drive to Survive when Geri Horner asked Christian who he wanted to see win the upcoming Monaco race, he replied that he'd like to see Max win, even though the team robbed Ricciardo of a win there 2 yrs earlier by not having the tyres ready & probably owed him a Monaco win.

There are a few other examples I could mention but I think i've made my point.

I won't go so far as to say RB favour one driver over another with things like parts or upgrades or things like that, because i've no evidence to say otherwise, but there's no doubt in my mind that RB do have designated "chosen ones" (Vettel & Verstappen), the ones who can set the records, & thus tend to favour those drivers over the other but in a more psychological way.

Both drivers might get a cuddle off Marko & Christian at bed time, but only one will get told "I love you".
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:30 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 pm
I don't know... Whatever is noted on his contract, I just hope he will not be considered as the "second" driver, which is a curse in any team and quite a punishment at RBR.
That said, if he doesn't take too long to adapt to the car and if RBR listen to him and treat his side of the garage as Verstappen's, my opinion is that we may be surprised.
Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
I don't think RB favoured Webber when he was beating Vettel nor did they favour Ricciardo when he was beating Verstappen though. In fact the evidence would suggest the opposite.

If you think back to Turkey 2010. Webber was leading Vettel in the WC standings yet the team clearly, & quite falsely, laid the blame for the crash in Turkey solely at Webbers feet. That day they pretty much said to Webber "Even though you're in front, Seb's our boy".

The exact same thing happened to Ricciardo in Baku after his crash with Verstappen. Cut & dry Verstappens fault yet RB, maybe learning from Turkey 2010, was smart enough to lay the blame this time on both drivers.

Think Spain 2016 & the controversial change to Ricciardo's tyre strategy which ultimately favoured Verstappen & allowed him to win his 1st GP on debut for RB and in the process becoming the youngest GP winner ever & vindicating Marko's decision to torpedo Kvyat in favour of his younger charge.

Think the 1st series of Drive to Survive when Geri Horner asked Christian who he wanted to see win the upcoming Monaco race, he replied that he'd like to see Max win, even though the team robbed Ricciardo of a win there 2 yrs earlier by not having the tyres ready & probably owed him a Monaco win.

There are a few other examples I could mention but I think i've made my point.

I won't go so far as to say RB favour one driver over another with things like parts or upgrades or things like that, because i've no evidence to say otherwise, but there's no doubt in my mind that RB do have designated "chosen ones" (Vettel & Verstappen), the ones who can set the records, & thus tend to favour those drivers over the other but in a more psychological way.

Both drivers might get a cuddle off Marko & Christian at bed time, but only one will get told "I love you".
But with those examples with the crashes it was already clear who the better driver was even if the points told a different story at the time. I'm not saying Red Bull will favour Perez if Verstappen has mechanical issues in the first three races and ends up trailing him on points. Webber was ahead in the championship on countback only. They both had 78 points after 6 races and Vettel had already lost two wins to bad luck in those 6 races. Red Bull backed Vettel because he was the better driver.

Why would Red Bull try and elevate the inferior driver? What's in it for them?

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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by pokerman »

j man wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:44 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 pm
I don't know... Whatever is noted on his contract, I just hope he will not be considered as the "second" driver, which is a curse in any team and quite a punishment at RBR.
That said, if he doesn't take too long to adapt to the car and if RBR listen to him and treat his side of the garage as Verstappen's, my opinion is that we may be surprised.
Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
I think this has been true in the past, I was never convinced that Vettel was getting massively preferential treatment over Webber for instance, but I think this current setup revolves more heavily around the lead driver (i.e. Verstappen) than they have done in the past. Whilst Albon is no superstar I don't think he is anywhere near as bad as this season's evidence would suggest, though I still think the team have made the right choice in replacing him. The gap between Albon/Gasly and Verstappen is surely one of the biggest gaps between team mates in recent years, and the narrative that it's because Albon and Gasly are terrible and Verstappen has god-like driving abilities doesn't wash for me, particularly given Gasly's form since his "demotion". I think Ricciardo saw that this was where the team was going when he decided to swap a race-winning car for a midfield one.
I remember at the start of the 2012 season Red Bull were struggling, Vettel more so than Webber, Vettel at times couldn't get into Q3 and more often than not was being out qualified by Webber.

The problem I believe was with rear end stability with the car not producing enough downforce I believe, as Red Bull managed to improve these issues they started to win races but also Vettel started to beat Webber, the car became more competitive but also started to suit Vettel more, it was a win win for both Red Bull and Vettel. I also think that Red Bull knew that if they took the car in the best direction for Vettel then he would deliver and it always seemed to be Vettel that pushed the car in the direction he wanted it to go.

Today at Ferrari it's curious how we see the opposite situation, the car has rear end instability, a product of having to strip the car of downforce because of a weak engine, they gain more on the straight then what they lose in the corners by doing this especially with Leclerc while Vettel struggles. Putting more downforce on the car gives Vettel a more comfortable car but ultimately a slower car than what Leclerc can live with in its stripped downforce set up.

The Ferrari situation is one of compromise but with drivers having opposite needs are they able to facilitate one over the other, nominally who they may consider to be the faster driver?

At Mercedes despite Schumacher being the slower driver in the first 2 years, because of his standing he was able to influence the design direction of the car as in he requested a shorter wheel base car which he believed would suit him better. I'm not sure of the timeline of this event but certainly in his final season at Mercedes he was easily able to match Rosberg.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by pokerman »

Harpo wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:53 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 pm
I don't know... Whatever is noted on his contract, I just hope he will not be considered as the "second" driver, which is a curse in any team and quite a punishment at RBR.
That said, if he doesn't take too long to adapt to the car and if RBR listen to him and treat his side of the garage as Verstappen's, my opinion is that we may be surprised.
Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
Quite by chance, Vettel, who had been favoured during the Webber years, got beat by Ricciardo the year he had signed to join Ferrari...
He was getting beat by Ricciardo long before the decision was made to join Ferrari, also any illusion to Ricciardo being favoured by Red Bull doesn't really play out with the amount of times they changed Vettel's car because they couldn't understand why he was getting beat.
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Johnson
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by Johnson »

He will be in the middle of Ricciardo and Gasly/Albon. Exactly where Red Bull need him.

Due to luck, SC’s and Max’s occasional hot headed ness (paired with Perez’ consistency) I can see him finishing ahead of Max 5-6 times. Qualifying will likely be a near whitewash.

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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Is it easy for everyone or convenient even to disregard Checo's experience in F1? 10 years is a good amount of time. This is the biggest difference between Albon/Gasly & Perez.

I read in just today in an interview of Dr. Marko, there was a time when Ricciardo & Perez had tested for RB. He said in terms of race lap times, they both were equal. Perez was just a little slower in 1 lap pace.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:55 pm
Harpo wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:53 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 pm
I don't know... Whatever is noted on his contract, I just hope he will not be considered as the "second" driver, which is a curse in any team and quite a punishment at RBR.
That said, if he doesn't take too long to adapt to the car and if RBR listen to him and treat his side of the garage as Verstappen's, my opinion is that we may be surprised.
Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
Quite by chance, Vettel, who had been favoured during the Webber years, got beat by Ricciardo the year he had signed to join Ferrari...
He was getting beat by Ricciardo long before the decision was made to join Ferrari, also any illusion to Ricciardo being favoured by Red Bull doesn't really play out with the amount of times they changed Vettel's car because they couldn't understand why he was getting beat.
I only remember them changing his chassis twice, and one was found to be faulty as Vettel speculated. You make it seem like he got one every few races.

As for Red Bull playing favorites… ABSO-FREAKEN-LUTELY!
And if you believe any different you’re not paying attention or you don’t retain information and factual events. It is a FACT, rather than opinion that Marko who has the most influence over who the team puts in their cars, has always had CLEAR favorites. The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere. Before that it was definitely Ricciardo over Vettel once they saw Seb struggling without the DD he’d become so accustomed to. Since Ricciardo never had a very good DD to begin with, he didn’t miss or rely on it as much as Seb had come to. It was then that Horner, Marko and co started concentrating on Ricciardo considerably more, and Seb being a keen and extremely outgoing person knew it was happening, hence the tough luck radio message.

I predict Max will be their clear #1 at the season opener, but if Perez can match him in Qualy and in the races, and even beat him, Red Bull will concentrate more on Perez. If Verstappen were to experience a slump you’ll see Marko change his current tune of nothing but praise for Max to ripping him publicly.

That old buzzard has zero loyalty and won’t hesitate to stick a knife upwards between the 8th and 9th rib, ensuring you can’t even make a peep about the knife he’ll stick in your back.

That’s why I don’t agree with drivers having to stay loyal to teams when teams will show zero loyalty towards them, just like RP didn’t show to Perez, how a Ferrari didn’t show Vettel, or Schumacher or Raikkonen.

If I were Checo I would be out there trying to rip Max’s still beating heart from his chest and shoot for the fences, forcing the team to advise Max to support his teammate’s efforts.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:26 pm
Is it easy for everyone or convenient even to disregard Checo's experience in F1? 10 years is a good amount of time. This is the biggest difference between Albon/Gasly & Perez.

I read in just today in an interview of Dr. Marko, there was a time when Ricciardo & Perez had tested for RB. He said in terms of race lap times, they both were equal. Perez was just a little slower in 1 lap pace.
That doesn't really surprise me.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:55 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:55 pm
Harpo wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:53 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:31 pm


Its inevitable that he will be driver No2 isn't it. Red Bull have always had favourites and MV is one of their biggest.
People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
Quite by chance, Vettel, who had been favoured during the Webber years, got beat by Ricciardo the year he had signed to join Ferrari...
He was getting beat by Ricciardo long before the decision was made to join Ferrari, also any illusion to Ricciardo being favoured by Red Bull doesn't really play out with the amount of times they changed Vettel's car because they couldn't understand why he was getting beat.
I only remember them changing his chassis twice, and one was found to be faulty as Vettel speculated. You make it seem like he got one every few races.

As for Red Bull playing favorites… ABSO-FREAKEN-LUTELY!
And if you believe any different you’re not paying attention or you don’t retain information and factual events. It is a FACT, rather than opinion that Marko who has the most influence over who the team puts in their cars, has always had CLEAR favorites. The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere. Before that it was definitely Ricciardo over Vettel once they saw Seb struggling without the DD he’d become so accustomed to. Since Ricciardo never had a very good DD to begin with, he didn’t miss or rely on it as much as Seb had come to. It was then that Horner, Marko and co started concentrating on Ricciardo considerably more, and Seb being a keen and extremely outgoing person knew it was happening, hence the tough luck radio message.

I predict Max will be their clear #1 at the season opener, but if Perez can match him in Qualy and in the races, and even beat him, Red Bull will concentrate more on Perez. If Verstappen were to experience a slump you’ll see Marko change his current tune of nothing but praise for Max to ripping him publicly.

That old buzzard has zero loyalty and won’t hesitate to stick a knife upwards between the 8th and 9th rib, ensuring you can’t even make a peep about the knife he’ll stick in your back.

That’s why I don’t agree with drivers having to stay loyal to teams when teams will show zero loyalty towards them, just like RP didn’t show to Perez, how a Ferrari didn’t show Vettel, or Schumacher or Raikkonen.

If I were Checo I would be out there trying to rip Max’s still beating heart from his chest and shoot for the fences, forcing the team to advise Max to support his teammate’s efforts.
Having your car changed twice in a season is a lot especially when it's for performance reasons and not related to being crashed.

I believe they found a small crack in his first chassis and although they believed it made no difference they pandered to Vettel and it made no difference, I'm glad you conferred that they actually did this twice.

I wasn't arguing about Red Bull showing favouritism to one driver over the other, just saying that the pandering to Vettel in 2014 is a strange way to be showing favouritism to Ricciardo.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by StanB123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:55 am
The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere.
Fact: Max Verstappen at that time had already signed a Red Bull contract for the following year.
Source: Max Verstappen in "Whatever it takes" TV documentary

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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by mikeyg123 »

StanB123 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:36 am
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:55 am
The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere.
Fact: Max Verstappen at that time had already signed a Red Bull contract for the following year.
Source: Max Verstappen in "Whatever it takes" TV documentary
It's nuts to say it wasn't warranted tbh. Verstappen immediately proved to be the better driver. It was harsh on Kvyat. In normal circumstances he didn't deserve to get demoted but it seems pointless to hold back a driver with so much potential just to be nice to a guy you already know isn't quite good enough.

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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:56 am
StanB123 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:36 am
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:55 am
The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere.
Fact: Max Verstappen at that time had already signed a Red Bull contract for the following year.
Source: Max Verstappen in "Whatever it takes" TV documentary
It's nuts to say it wasn't warranted tbh. Verstappen immediately proved to be the better driver. It was harsh on Kvyat. In normal circumstances he didn't deserve to get demoted but it seems pointless to hold back a driver with so much potential just to be nice to a guy you already know isn't quite good enough.
I think the way they did it was unwarranted, no matter how much better Verstappen was than Kvyat (which is a lot). I didn't see any justification for the mid-season swap then, and I still don't see any today. Did they urgently need to get Max into the car so they could win the WCC? No, they had no chance of winning it. Did they need to make the move in-season to prevent Max from leaving the Red Bull program? No, we know that wasn't going to happen.

There was good reason to replace Kvyat with Verstappen, and I would have agreed with doing it at the end of the season (or at the start of the season, when they already knew Verstappen was better). But I think replacing him mid-season was indeed very much unwarranted. IMO, they did it for publicity reasons, nothing to do with any desire against holding Max back.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by Jezza13 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:48 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:55 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:55 pm
Harpo wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:53 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:20 pm


People always like to claim Red Bull have favourites.

In reality if they favour anyone it's just the guy winning. They favoured Vettel until he got beat by Ricciardo, they favoured Ricciardo until he got beat by Verstappen and if Perez performs better than Verstappen then they will favour him.
Quite by chance, Vettel, who had been favoured during the Webber years, got beat by Ricciardo the year he had signed to join Ferrari...
He was getting beat by Ricciardo long before the decision was made to join Ferrari, also any illusion to Ricciardo being favoured by Red Bull doesn't really play out with the amount of times they changed Vettel's car because they couldn't understand why he was getting beat.
I only remember them changing his chassis twice, and one was found to be faulty as Vettel speculated. You make it seem like he got one every few races.

As for Red Bull playing favorites… ABSO-FREAKEN-LUTELY!
And if you believe any different you’re not paying attention or you don’t retain information and factual events. It is a FACT, rather than opinion that Marko who has the most influence over who the team puts in their cars, has always had CLEAR favorites. The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere. Before that it was definitely Ricciardo over Vettel once they saw Seb struggling without the DD he’d become so accustomed to. Since Ricciardo never had a very good DD to begin with, he didn’t miss or rely on it as much as Seb had come to. It was then that Horner, Marko and co started concentrating on Ricciardo considerably more, and Seb being a keen and extremely outgoing person knew it was happening, hence the tough luck radio message.

I predict Max will be their clear #1 at the season opener, but if Perez can match him in Qualy and in the races, and even beat him, Red Bull will concentrate more on Perez. If Verstappen were to experience a slump you’ll see Marko change his current tune of nothing but praise for Max to ripping him publicly.

That old buzzard has zero loyalty and won’t hesitate to stick a knife upwards between the 8th and 9th rib, ensuring you can’t even make a peep about the knife he’ll stick in your back.

That’s why I don’t agree with drivers having to stay loyal to teams when teams will show zero loyalty towards them, just like RP didn’t show to Perez, how a Ferrari didn’t show Vettel, or Schumacher or Raikkonen.

If I were Checo I would be out there trying to rip Max’s still beating heart from his chest and shoot for the fences, forcing the team to advise Max to support his teammate’s efforts.
Having your car changed twice in a season is a lot especially when it's for performance reasons and not related to being crashed.

I believe they found a small crack in his first chassis and although they believed it made no difference they pandered to Vettel and it made no difference, I'm glad you conferred that they actually did this twice.

I wasn't arguing about Red Bull showing favouritism to one driver over the other, just saying that the pandering to Vettel in 2014 is a strange way to be showing favouritism to Ricciardo.
RB did the same chassis excuse thing for Vettel when he was beaten by Webber back to back in Spain & Monaco in 2010.

From Webbers book:

"Somewhere in the post-race [Monaco] mix, there was talk that Sebastian wanted my chassis. In the end, Christian Horner took me aside and told me that he had given Marko the opportunity to tell Sebastian that he had a cracked chassis -- which he didn't -- to help him rationalise the fact that he had just been well and truly beaten, for the second race in a row, by the old Aussie in the other car. It seems it had been affecting his confidence, and to Seb that's everything. It seemed beyond his comprehension that I could beat him fair and square; for him there had to be another reason why."
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:31 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:56 am
StanB123 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:36 am
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:55 am
The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere.
Fact: Max Verstappen at that time had already signed a Red Bull contract for the following year.
Source: Max Verstappen in "Whatever it takes" TV documentary
It's nuts to say it wasn't warranted tbh. Verstappen immediately proved to be the better driver. It was harsh on Kvyat. In normal circumstances he didn't deserve to get demoted but it seems pointless to hold back a driver with so much potential just to be nice to a guy you already know isn't quite good enough.
I think the way they did it was unwarranted, no matter how much better Verstappen was than Kvyat (which is a lot). I didn't see any justification for the mid-season swap then, and I still don't see any today. Did they urgently need to get Max into the car so they could win the WCC? No, they had no chance of winning it. Did they need to make the move in-season to prevent Max from leaving the Red Bull program? No, we know that wasn't going to happen.

There was good reason to replace Kvyat with Verstappen, and I would have agreed with doing it at the end of the season (or at the start of the season, when they already knew Verstappen was better). But I think replacing him mid-season was indeed very much unwarranted. IMO, they did it for publicity reasons, nothing to do with any desire against holding Max back.
The reality is though at the time of Kyvat's demotion he was getting crushed by Ricciardo, it's not too dissimilar to what happened to Gasly.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by pokerman »

Jezza13 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:48 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:55 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:55 pm
Harpo wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:53 am

Quite by chance, Vettel, who had been favoured during the Webber years, got beat by Ricciardo the year he had signed to join Ferrari...
He was getting beat by Ricciardo long before the decision was made to join Ferrari, also any illusion to Ricciardo being favoured by Red Bull doesn't really play out with the amount of times they changed Vettel's car because they couldn't understand why he was getting beat.
I only remember them changing his chassis twice, and one was found to be faulty as Vettel speculated. You make it seem like he got one every few races.

As for Red Bull playing favorites… ABSO-FREAKEN-LUTELY!
And if you believe any different you’re not paying attention or you don’t retain information and factual events. It is a FACT, rather than opinion that Marko who has the most influence over who the team puts in their cars, has always had CLEAR favorites. The most recent obvious was Kvyat’s unwarranted and unjustified demotion for Verstappen, only to ensure another team didn’t snap him up and to keep the snotty kid happy so that he wouldn’t want to go elsewhere. Before that it was definitely Ricciardo over Vettel once they saw Seb struggling without the DD he’d become so accustomed to. Since Ricciardo never had a very good DD to begin with, he didn’t miss or rely on it as much as Seb had come to. It was then that Horner, Marko and co started concentrating on Ricciardo considerably more, and Seb being a keen and extremely outgoing person knew it was happening, hence the tough luck radio message.

I predict Max will be their clear #1 at the season opener, but if Perez can match him in Qualy and in the races, and even beat him, Red Bull will concentrate more on Perez. If Verstappen were to experience a slump you’ll see Marko change his current tune of nothing but praise for Max to ripping him publicly.

That old buzzard has zero loyalty and won’t hesitate to stick a knife upwards between the 8th and 9th rib, ensuring you can’t even make a peep about the knife he’ll stick in your back.

That’s why I don’t agree with drivers having to stay loyal to teams when teams will show zero loyalty towards them, just like RP didn’t show to Perez, how a Ferrari didn’t show Vettel, or Schumacher or Raikkonen.

If I were Checo I would be out there trying to rip Max’s still beating heart from his chest and shoot for the fences, forcing the team to advise Max to support his teammate’s efforts.
Having your car changed twice in a season is a lot especially when it's for performance reasons and not related to being crashed.

I believe they found a small crack in his first chassis and although they believed it made no difference they pandered to Vettel and it made no difference, I'm glad you conferred that they actually did this twice.

I wasn't arguing about Red Bull showing favouritism to one driver over the other, just saying that the pandering to Vettel in 2014 is a strange way to be showing favouritism to Ricciardo.
RB did the same chassis excuse thing for Vettel when he was beaten by Webber back to back in Spain & Monaco in 2010.

From Webbers book:

"Somewhere in the post-race [Monaco] mix, there was talk that Sebastian wanted my chassis. In the end, Christian Horner took me aside and told me that he had given Marko the opportunity to tell Sebastian that he had a cracked chassis -- which he didn't -- to help him rationalise the fact that he had just been well and truly beaten, for the second race in a row, by the old Aussie in the other car. It seems it had been affecting his confidence, and to Seb that's everything. It seemed beyond his comprehension that I could beat him fair and square; for him there had to be another reason why."
He has form for this, in his German BMW year he was getting beat by his British teammate and he claimed he had a better engine and demanded his engine which he received. On this occasion he was right because Vettel then went on to win every race thereafter I believe.

What stands out is Vettel's level of entitlement that his is better and can demand the equipment of his teammates, this year he nearly went there with Leclerc's car was better than his but then seemingly pulled back from that and acknowledged what a great driver Leclerc is.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Looks like Red Bull will be stronger with the raft of good changes coming up for '21. Hope all this makes Checo exploit his skills to be close o the performance level of Max.
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Re: How will Perez perform against Max?

Post by Mort Canard »

I am going to predict that Checo will be a much stronger team mate to Max than Alex or Pierre ever were. I am not sure that Checo will beat Max on merit but he should be close enough to take full advantage of any missteps by Max.
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