2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

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jeffw
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by jeffw »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:47 pm
Maybe it would have been better if Russell had been in the Merc, Hamilton's not looked on it at in the race, he did admit today that he felt better, I would question if he's fully fit.
What more could Hamilton do?
Not race... I think the only reason he was back in the car is he did not like someone stepping in his car an having such a good result (least GR nearly did). If he was not 100% he should not be racing.. after all what was to be gained ( WDC & CC already locked up).

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

jeffw wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:03 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:47 pm
Maybe it would have been better if Russell had been in the Merc, Hamilton's not looked on it at in the race, he did admit today that he felt better, I would question if he's fully fit.
What more could Hamilton do?
Not race... I think the only reason he was back in the car is he did not like someone stepping in his car an having such a good result (least GR nearly did). If he was not 100% he should not be racing.. after all what was to be gained ( WDC & CC already locked up).
I think like most racers he just wanted to get back in the car, it's a long time now before he gets in the car again.
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F1_Ernie
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

jeffw wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:03 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:47 pm
Maybe it would have been better if Russell had been in the Merc, Hamilton's not looked on it at in the race, he did admit today that he felt better, I would question if he's fully fit.
What more could Hamilton do?
Not race... I think the only reason he was back in the car is he did not like someone stepping in his car an having such a good result (least GR nearly did). If he was not 100% he should not be racing.. after all what was to be gained ( WDC & CC already locked up).
I meant race result, after the first corner the race result was always going to be the same however fit Hamilton was.
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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:57 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:45 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:34 pm
UnlikeUday wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:44 pm
Stroll is pathetic.
I will admit he's been disappointing lately, but I still have to point out that he was either very solid in the first half, or if he was also "pathetic" then, then Perez was pretty much as bad. I don't think it can be both ways. If Stroll has been bad all season, then Perez has had a very lopsided season. But my personal view on it was that Stroll was just marginally better than Perez (i know others will disagree) up until italy. If Perez was considered to have a solid first half of the season, the same has to be said about Stroll too.


I would say that both had a decent start, with Stroll being better than many give him credit for and Perez being a bit below his usual standards. But later on, Stroll did seem to drop a fair bit and the complete opposite for Perez. But I don't think Stroll has had a pathetic season and I also don't think Perez's season as a whole has been quite as good as many say - simply because he didn't really look better than Stroll over all in the first half.

The time that they announced Vettel that many are now criticising more than ever at the time honestly didn't look that stupid as performance and results wise, Stroll was pretty even with Perez. Things have admittedly swung and it obviously is the case that over the whole season, Perez has been far better.

Thing is until Italy is only 5 races given that Perez missed two of them. Perez was far better than Stroll in both Austrian races, far worse in Hungary, about even in Spain and better in Spa. Only someone with an extremely generous view of Stroll (I.E you) would conclude Stroll was the better driver over that period but even if you do it's not a huge period of time.

Stroll has cost his team 3rd in the WCC this season. He's both been too slow and got involved in too many incidents.
I'm not the only one. I totally disagree about Spa. Stroll did what he needed to and as often is the case got a better launch off the line. Spain, I'm purely going on an avoidable Mistake from Perez costing him position. Yea, ok performance wise we can say even, but due to Perez's mistake, it cost him and Stroll got the better result.

It wasn't even hard to find many driver rankings from the mid season with just one simple search. Honestly, i didn't even spend more than a couple of minutes finding this.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/formula-one/f ... ell-652268

https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2020 ... ne-so-far/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2 ... pped-half/

https://the-race.com/formula-1/edd-stra ... r-ratings/



Stroll rated ahead in 3 of them and they are not even all mid season. The telegraph admittedly is absolutely ridiculous with Stroll up in 4th and Perez 15th though.

I think Edd Straws view is probably the most realistic with Perez having a marginally better ranking 9 races into the season.

Still, I'm not going to change my mind that throughout a good chunk of this season, (in my opinion, Stroll looked slightly better than perez) Not by much at all, but enough to make me view it that way. And I'll admit Perez has really outperformed him more recently. Though Stroll sometimes does still show some flashes of brilliance at least. I don't think the decision at the time to keep Stroll looked as unfair as it does now.
Did you watch Spa? Perez gained an entire pitstop on Stroll on tyres just a few racing laps newer.

I think a lot of things happened that made Stroll look like he was doing better than Perez than he actually was.

Austria Perez should have won or at worst 2nd but Racing Point messed up on strategy. Stroll was nowhere

Styria Perez was way ahead but made a mistake in passing Albon for 4th and ended up just ahead of Stroll who inexplicably wasn't penalised for a late overtake off track on Ricciardo

Then Hungary where Stroll was far better.

Unfortunately for Perez this is when he got Covid. He missed two races and that poor Hungary performance stuck in peoples minds for much longer than it would normally have done.

Especially as he put in a fairly subdued performance in Spain he came back. Him and Stroll were evenly matched. Perez got a penalty which put him behind Stroll. His fault but important to note that Stroll beating Perez here had nothing to do with Stroll.

Then Spa where Perez was bizarrely not pitted behind the safety car but came in just two laps after it the safety car period ended. He made back that entire pitstop and finished just behind Stroll.

Then Monza where a quirk of luck took Perez from 4th to 10th and Stroll from 10th to a winning position.

Then of course you had Mugello and Sochi where Stroll had the upgrades and Perez didn't.

In terms of the decision to keep Stroll...Have you forgotten they were team mates the season prior as well. We didn't have to go on the first few races of this season in isolation. But lets not kid ourselves. Stroll being retained over Perez never had anything to do with performance.

Basically lots went wrong for Perez this season. He's had some rotten luck and some terrible strategies. Had he been pitted under the SC in Austria he would have likely gone on to win and I doubt anyone would be even considering Stroll being better.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:15 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:57 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:45 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:34 pm
UnlikeUday wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:44 pm
Stroll is pathetic.
I will admit he's been disappointing lately, but I still have to point out that he was either very solid in the first half, or if he was also "pathetic" then, then Perez was pretty much as bad. I don't think it can be both ways. If Stroll has been bad all season, then Perez has had a very lopsided season. But my personal view on it was that Stroll was just marginally better than Perez (i know others will disagree) up until italy. If Perez was considered to have a solid first half of the season, the same has to be said about Stroll too.


I would say that both had a decent start, with Stroll being better than many give him credit for and Perez being a bit below his usual standards. But later on, Stroll did seem to drop a fair bit and the complete opposite for Perez. But I don't think Stroll has had a pathetic season and I also don't think Perez's season as a whole has been quite as good as many say - simply because he didn't really look better than Stroll over all in the first half.

The time that they announced Vettel that many are now criticising more than ever at the time honestly didn't look that stupid as performance and results wise, Stroll was pretty even with Perez. Things have admittedly swung and it obviously is the case that over the whole season, Perez has been far better.

Thing is until Italy is only 5 races given that Perez missed two of them. Perez was far better than Stroll in both Austrian races, far worse in Hungary, about even in Spain and better in Spa. Only someone with an extremely generous view of Stroll (I.E you) would conclude Stroll was the better driver over that period but even if you do it's not a huge period of time.

Stroll has cost his team 3rd in the WCC this season. He's both been too slow and got involved in too many incidents.
I'm not the only one. I totally disagree about Spa. Stroll did what he needed to and as often is the case got a better launch off the line. Spain, I'm purely going on an avoidable Mistake from Perez costing him position. Yea, ok performance wise we can say even, but due to Perez's mistake, it cost him and Stroll got the better result.

It wasn't even hard to find many driver rankings from the mid season with just one simple search. Honestly, i didn't even spend more than a couple of minutes finding this.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/formula-one/f ... ell-652268

https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2020 ... ne-so-far/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2 ... pped-half/

https://the-race.com/formula-1/edd-stra ... r-ratings/



Stroll rated ahead in 3 of them and they are not even all mid season. The telegraph admittedly is absolutely ridiculous with Stroll up in 4th and Perez 15th though.

I think Edd Straws view is probably the most realistic with Perez having a marginally better ranking 9 races into the season.

Still, I'm not going to change my mind that throughout a good chunk of this season, (in my opinion, Stroll looked slightly better than perez) Not by much at all, but enough to make me view it that way. And I'll admit Perez has really outperformed him more recently. Though Stroll sometimes does still show some flashes of brilliance at least. I don't think the decision at the time to keep Stroll looked as unfair as it does now.
Did you watch Spa? Perez gained an entire pitstop on Stroll on tyres just a few racing laps newer.

I think a lot of things happened that made Stroll look like he was doing better than Perez than he actually was.

Austria Perez should have won or at worst 2nd but Racing Point messed up on strategy. Stroll was nowhere

Styria Perez was way ahead but made a mistake in passing Albon for 4th and ended up just ahead of Stroll who inexplicably wasn't penalised for a late overtake off track on Ricciardo

Then Hungary where Stroll was far better.

Unfortunately for Perez this is when he got Covid. He missed two races and that poor Hungary performance stuck in peoples minds for much longer than it would normally have done.

Especially as he put in a fairly subdued performance in Spain he came back. Him and Stroll were evenly matched. Perez got a penalty which put him behind Stroll. His fault but important to note that Stroll beating Perez here had nothing to do with Stroll.

Then Spa where Perez was bizarrely not pitted behind the safety car but came in just two laps after it the safety car period ended. He made back that entire pitstop and finished just behind Stroll.

Then Monza where a quirk of luck took Perez from 4th to 10th and Stroll from 10th to a winning position.

Then of course you had Mugello and Sochi where Stroll had the upgrades and Perez didn't.

In terms of the decision to keep Stroll...Have you forgotten they were team mates the season prior as well. We didn't have to go on the first few races of this season in isolation. But lets not kid ourselves. Stroll being retained over Perez never had anything to do with performance.

Basically lots went wrong for Perez this season. He's had some rotten luck and some terrible strategies. Had he been pitted under the SC in Austria he would have likely gone on to win and I doubt anyone would be even considering Stroll being better.
Me personally I wouldn't want to go much deeper in my reply to the poster that in the 3rd best car Stroll finished 11th in the WDC.
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tootsie323
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:03 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:31 pm
Well deserved win for Verstappen, just reward for a strong season.
I reckon he was the most metronomic qualifier for the season. Not once did I score him any lower than 6 out of 8 on a Saturday.

Still ended up with Hamilton having the highest score for the season in overall race weekend ratings, with Verstappen 2nd and Ricciardo 3rd.
Sounds about right, I guess Leclerc had too many incidents to get 3rd?
I'd agree about Leclerc. Some sensational drives spoiled by a small number of numbskull moments. If he irons those out, and Ferrari improves its car, he is a genuine challenger.
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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:03 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:31 pm
Well deserved win for Verstappen, just reward for a strong season.
I reckon he was the most metronomic qualifier for the season. Not once did I score him any lower than 6 out of 8 on a Saturday.

Still ended up with Hamilton having the highest score for the season in overall race weekend ratings, with Verstappen 2nd and Ricciardo 3rd.
Sounds about right, I guess Leclerc had too many incidents to get 3rd?
I'd agree about Leclerc. Some sensational drives spoiled by a small number of numbskull moments. If he irons those out, and Ferrari improves its car, he is a genuine challenger.
Without doubt.
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Schumacher forever#1
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:03 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:31 pm
Well deserved win for Verstappen, just reward for a strong season.
I reckon he was the most metronomic qualifier for the season. Not once did I score him any lower than 6 out of 8 on a Saturday.

Still ended up with Hamilton having the highest score for the season in overall race weekend ratings, with Verstappen 2nd and Ricciardo 3rd.
Sounds about right, I guess Leclerc had too many incidents to get 3rd?
That's the thing about averages I suppose. You can be phenomenal for five races, and then f**k up one and your race average suddenly looks mediocre. Whether that's warranted or not is up to opinion I guess.

I do agree Ricciardo did enough to get third though. A very impressive season long performance once again from him. Ocon is no slouch.
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by DFWdude »

Today's race was the most boring of the entire season. If it's true that Mercedes "turned-down" the performance of their cars due to MGU fatigue, then they surrendered the race to Red Bull for no reason.

So what if one (or both) Mercedes break down. It's not like Merc couldn't afford to lose the points as WCC and WDC were already determined. At least they would have tried to run down Verstappen.

I dozed-off through the middle section of the race, and found that more productive than watching.

wolfticket
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by wolfticket »

DFWdude wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:43 pm
Today's race was the most boring of the entire season. If it's true that Mercedes "turned-down" the performance of their cars due to MGU fatigue, then they surrendered the race to Red Bull for no reason.

So what if one (or both) Mercedes break down. It's not like Merc couldn't afford to lose the points as WCC and WDC were already determined. At least they would have tried to run down Verstappen.

I dozed-off through the middle section of the race, and found that more productive than watching.
Not disagreeing with the entertainment factor, but Bottas did need 4th to guarantee a Mercedes 1-2 in the WDC if Verstappen won. 1-2 is probably quite important to Mercedes.
===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶===

JN23
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

wolfticket wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:50 pm
DFWdude wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:43 pm
Today's race was the most boring of the entire season. If it's true that Mercedes "turned-down" the performance of their cars due to MGU fatigue, then they surrendered the race to Red Bull for no reason.

So what if one (or both) Mercedes break down. It's not like Merc couldn't afford to lose the points as WCC and WDC were already determined. At least they would have tried to run down Verstappen.

I dozed-off through the middle section of the race, and found that more productive than watching.
Not disagreeing with the entertainment factor, but Bottas did need 4th to guarantee a Mercedes 1-2 in the WDC if Verstappen won. 1-2 is probably quite important to Mercedes.
In which case they could have played it safe with Bottas and he'd have come third easily anyway and let Hamilton have a go at Verstappen, no?

wolfticket
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by wolfticket »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:55 pm
wolfticket wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:50 pm
DFWdude wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:43 pm
Today's race was the most boring of the entire season. If it's true that Mercedes "turned-down" the performance of their cars due to MGU fatigue, then they surrendered the race to Red Bull for no reason.

So what if one (or both) Mercedes break down. It's not like Merc couldn't afford to lose the points as WCC and WDC were already determined. At least they would have tried to run down Verstappen.

I dozed-off through the middle section of the race, and found that more productive than watching.
Not disagreeing with the entertainment factor, but Bottas did need 4th to guarantee a Mercedes 1-2 in the WDC if Verstappen won. 1-2 is probably quite important to Mercedes.
In which case they could have played it safe with Bottas and he'd have come third easily anyway and let Hamilton have a go at Verstappen, no?
As we saw last week, pitting isn't necessarily playing it safe, especially when it's not necessary. Also there was no real suggestion that an under the weather Hamilton was really pushing Bottas. Letting Hamilton pass Bottas with all the fallout that would generate on the very slim chance that in clean air he'd be able to close on Max, let alone get past, just to offer a potential grain of entertainment in a dull race probably didn't even cross Mercedes' mind.
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Schumacher forever#1
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

I tell you what, if Mercedes continue to handicap themselves by giving their drivers equal strategy and engine performance, it could play nicely into Verstappen's hands if RB get things right over winter.
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Option or Prime
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Option or Prime »

Letting Bottas finish in front of Hamilton in the meaningless last race was the least Mercedes could do to recognise his contribution to Hamilton 7th WDC.
Its a big if for RB to get it right over the winter though isn't it. I wouldn't count on beating McLaren every week next year with the Mercedes PU in the back of it and with Ricciardo and Norris up front.

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:02 am
Letting Bottas finish in front of Hamilton in the meaningless last race was the least Mercedes could do to recognise his contribution to Hamilton 7th WDC.
Its a big if for RB to get it right over the winter though isn't it. I wouldn't count on beating McLaren every week next year with the Mercedes PU in the back of it and with Ricciardo and Norris up front.
True. Wishful thinking on my part. Red Bull have gotten better recently, but I do still expect a dominant Merc 1-2 when Melbourne comes around.
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Invade
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:02 am
Letting Bottas finish in front of Hamilton in the meaningless last race was the least Mercedes could do to recognise his contribution to Hamilton 7th WDC.
Its a big if for RB to get it right over the winter though isn't it. I wouldn't count on beating McLaren every week next year with the Mercedes PU in the back of it and with Ricciardo and Norris up front.
True. Wishful thinking on my part. Red Bull have gotten better recently, but I do still expect a dominant Merc 1-2 when Melbourne comes around.
The moment push comes to shove, Merc will bank on Lewis.

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

I know Albon's pace gives the impression that Red Bull were definitely faster in the race, but I do think he had his best weekend in the season for pace and that Hamilton was below his usual par, never mind being behind the sort of pace he produces when he's "at one" with the car. I think race pace was close to equal with Max making the difference, Albon having a good weekend, Bottas being ordinary and Hamilton not able to extract his usual performance.

Ultimately, for whatever reason beyond turning the PUs down, Mercedes didn't extract the best balance out of their cars and underperformed a bit, all across the board, in terms of setup, qualifying, pace, form of both drivers...

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Herb »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:52 am
I tell you what, if Mercedes continue to handicap themselves by giving their drivers equal strategy and engine performance, it could play nicely into Verstappen's hands if RB get things right over winter.
They've shown before that when the don't have the clear best car, they will get behind their lead driver. There was no real reason to do so this year.

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

The early VSC completely ruined this race as it was too predictable But still Mercedes and Hamilton especially were very dominant on this track for many many years. So RBR being so good here is a good sign. Very surprising race IMO. Hopefully RBR can be good for once from the start next year.
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

One of the unseen events of Abu Dhabi race weekend:

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Exediron »

An interesting bit of data I happened to come across while I was calculating the Verstappen / Ricciardo comparison for the A > B > C thread...

There's strong reason to believe that Abu Dhabi is one of Max's weakest tracks, if not his outright weakest. When compared to Ricciardo, he was out-qualified all three times they went to Abu Dhabi:

2016: Ricciardo -0.327%
2017: Ricciardo -0.379%
2018: Ricciardo -0.196%

Along with the US GP, it is the only circuit where Max went 0-3 against Ricciardo in qualifying -- and unlike COTA, where the the results fall broadly between the bottom 40% to the bottom 20% of Max's comparative results, all three of Max's numbers from Abu Dhabi fall below the 20% margin, with two of them being among his five worst non-wet results.

In conclusion: Max is quite possibly bad at Abu Dhabi, and so -- taken together with Albon being unusually close to the Mercedes pair -- there is a strong suggestion that the Red Bull was the clear best car in Abu Dhabi, and Max would have won easily even if Hamilton had been on form.
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Invade
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:20 pm
An interesting bit of data I happened to come across while I was calculating the Verstappen / Ricciardo comparison for the A > B > C thread...

There's strong reason to believe that Abu Dhabi is one of Max's weakest tracks, if not his outright weakest. When compared to Ricciardo, he was out-qualified all three times they went to Abu Dhabi:

2016: Ricciardo -0.327%
2017: Ricciardo -0.379%
2018: Ricciardo -0.196%

Along with the US GP, it is the only circuit where Max went 0-3 against Ricciardo in qualifying -- and unlike COTA, where the the results fall broadly between the bottom 40% to the bottom 20% of Max's comparative results, all three of Max's numbers from Abu Dhabi fall below the 20% margin, with two of them being among his five worst non-wet results.

In conclusion: Max is quite possibly bad at Abu Dhabi, and so -- taken together with Albon being unusually close to the Mercedes pair -- there is a strong suggestion that the Red Bull was the clear best car in Abu Dhabi, and Max would have won easily even if Hamilton had been on form.

That's a compelling argument.

The only thing I'd say is that I doubt Max would have won easily. Even if this is a rare instance of Verstappen's typical level coming down rather than Albon's going up (the assumption I made based on Max's general consistency) I doubt the car was much better. Or in other words, if we suppose this is a weak Max track, then an on song Lewis in a slightly worse car could make the difference and possibly win, especially with pole position, outclassing Max on that track so to speak.

Other than that conclusion, that's some lovely investigative work. Whadaya say? It also coincides with a weekend where Lewis had to bust his sphericals just to stay with Bottas.

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