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DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:57 am

These guys are facing the inevitable criticism from some that they simply bought their way into F1. But they're a mixed bunch and I don't think it's quite that clear cut but just as a discussion point who do you think is there on merit and whose wallet is bigger than their talent.

I only really saw Norris coming through so can't really comment on their Pre-F1 careers, but a quick bit of Googling and something does jump out to me.

Norris and Stroll
They generally moved up each year in terms of the categories they raced in
The won races and titles

Latifi and Mazepin
They jumped between categories
They didn't actually win much but still got drives

So I think there's a split but I admit I don't actually know much about how their careers have actually been funded and what that signifies.

Thoughts then? Is it just accepted as part of the game? Should the FIA mandate minimum championship positions in feeder series as part of the super-license? Is it OK to buy your way in but then it's sink or swim?

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:57 am

These guys are facing the inevitable criticism from some that they simply bought their way into F1. But they're a mixed bunch and I don't think it's quite that clear cut but just as a discussion point who do you think is there on merit and whose wallet is bigger than their talent.

I only really saw Norris coming through so can't really comment on their Pre-F1 careers, but a quick bit of Googling and something does jump out to me.

Norris and Stroll
They generally moved up each year in terms of the categories they raced in
The won races and titles

Latifi and Mazepin
They jumped between categories
They didn't actually win much but still got drives

So I think there's a split but I admit I don't actually know much about how their careers have actually been funded and what that signifies.

Thoughts then? Is it just accepted as part of the game? Should the FIA mandate minimum championship positions in feeder series as part of the super-license? Is it OK to buy your way in but then it's sink or swim?

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:52 am

You would have to be incredibly blessed as a person to be born into a super wealthy family and also be world class in your chosen sport so it is pretty exceptional that 20% of the current grid were born into super wealth and have managed to reach the pinnacle of their sport....... it's almost as if there might be a link to money and motorsport sporting performance.

Next year almost half the grid, whether through dad having extremely good motorsport connections or through sheer wealth, have had doors opened to them that simply remain shut for 99.99% of people - no matter how loudly you bang them.

It's ironic that the only two ATG's from this era (Hamilton and Alonso) have arguably came from the most modest backgrounds.

The reality with motorsport is that unlike most sports, talent and hard work doesn't necessarily go a long way to getting you a chance. As a % of what is needed to 'make it' in motorsport, talent and hard work make up a far smaller % in getting given opportunity, than say a sport like football or rugby (where talent and hard work should nearly always see you get given a chance). Sure you need it - but there are plenty of obstacles that talent and hard work alone can't remove.

To be modern F1 driver you need the stars to align for you -

1) You need to show an interest in motorsport from a young age,
2) You need a family member to show an interest in developing that interest,
3) You need to able to secure funding to grow that interest (better funding = better equipment = better coaching = getting faster),
4) You need to be good enough to be competing at the front of championships and series,
5) You need to make connections to open doors,
6) Your body needs to naturally be slim - a growth spurt at the wrong time can ruin you,
7) You need serious money as you go up the series - be that wealth or sponsorship - you need to have that money.

I compete in motorsport, and I was in my 30's before it was even an option to me as I've had to fund myself and had no family interest in the sport. For 95% of people, that is how it is. Starting at that age and without serious backing, you're never going to be anything more than making up the numbers on regional and national level club championships, with a few really talented drivers being the exceptions. No matter how good you are, it is a big ask to compete against guys that have 20+ years of seat time on you.

But motorsport is all about money. The British Touring Cars for example, quite a high level of motorsport, but every single one of those drivers is paying for their seat. I've competed against 2 of them currently running in the series, and whilst undoubtedly very good drivers - there were other guys just as good but didn't have the resources or connections to get a drive at a higher level - even though if they were given the opportunity, I'm pretty sure they'd do well.

That is just the reality of it - race cars are fuelled on money, and if you have the option of bringing a driver who is 95/100 with limited funding, or a driver who is 92/100 with plenty funding...... you'll bring in the 92/100 driver.

There are surprisingly few drivers who are getting paid directly to compete in professional motorsport.

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:10 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:52 am

You would have to be incredibly blessed as a person to be born into a super wealthy family and also be world class in your chosen sport so it is pretty exceptional that 20% of the current grid were born into super wealth and have managed to reach the pinnacle of their sport....... it's almost as if there might be a link to money and motorsport sporting performance.

Next year almost half the grid, whether through dad having extremely good motorsport connections or through sheer wealth, have had doors opened to them that simply remain shut for 99.99% of people - no matter how loudly you bang them.

It's ironic that the only two ATG's from this era (Hamilton and Alonso) have arguably came from the most modest backgrounds.

The reality with motorsport is that unlike most sports, talent and hard work doesn't necessarily go a long way to getting you a chance. As a % of what is needed to 'make it' in motorsport, talent and hard work make up a far smaller % in getting given opportunity, than say a sport like football or rugby (where talent and hard work should nearly always see you get given a chance). Sure you need it - but there are plenty of obstacles that talent and hard work alone can't remove.

To be modern F1 driver you need the stars to align for you -

1) You need to show an interest in motorsport from a young age,
2) You need a family member to show an interest in developing that interest,
3) You need to able to secure funding to grow that interest (better funding = better equipment = better coaching = getting faster),
4) You need to be good enough to be competing at the front of championships and series,
5) You need to make connections to open doors,
6) Your body needs to naturally be slim - a growth spurt at the wrong time can ruin you,
7) You need serious money as you go up the series - be that wealth or sponsorship - you need to have that money.

I compete in motorsport, and I was in my 30's before it was even an option to me as I've had to fund myself and had no family interest in the sport. For 95% of people, that is how it is. Starting at that age and without serious backing, you're never going to be anything more than making up the numbers on regional and national level club championships, with a few really talented drivers being the exceptions. No matter how good you are, it is a big ask to compete against guys that have 20+ years of seat time on you.

But motorsport is all about money. The British Touring Cars for example, quite a high level of motorsport, but every single one of those drivers is paying for their seat. I've competed against 2 of them currently running in the series, and whilst undoubtedly very good drivers - there were other guys just as good but didn't have the resources or connections to get a drive at a higher level - even though if they were given the opportunity, I'm pretty sure they'd do well.

That is just the reality of it - race cars are fuelled on money, and if you have the option of bringing a driver who is 95/100 with limited funding, or a driver who is 92/100 with plenty funding...... you'll bring in the 92/100 driver.

There are surprisingly few drivers who are getting paid directly to compete in professional motorsport.

I agree with all that. I competed myself at club level karting self funded. I think money is just as critical at karting level as you have to be in and win a national karting championship to have any chance of being picked up by a sponsor and to achieve that you probably need a budget around 30k and prove your worth against very talented competition.

Battle Far wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:05 pm

This thread is beyond daft, life isn't fair, grow up & grow some round sperical objects.

Why isn't Verstappen on the list? , you think anybody but his Dad paid for his Karting career and oh, BTW, helped him with an F1 drivers experience on the way

What about Mick Schumacher? Does he come from a poor background?

F1 in the 50s & 60s was a playboys playground hence von Tripps

Piers Courage, Peter Revson, Niki Lauda the list is endless of drivers who paid their way to the top level. What matters is what they do when they get there not the route they took.

Talk about sour grapes...

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:53 pm

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:10 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:52 am

You would have to be incredibly blessed as a person to be born into a super wealthy family and also be world class in your chosen sport so it is pretty exceptional that 20% of the current grid were born into super wealth and have managed to reach the pinnacle of their sport....... it's almost as if there might be a link to money and motorsport sporting performance.

Next year almost half the grid, whether through dad having extremely good motorsport connections or through sheer wealth, have had doors opened to them that simply remain shut for 99.99% of people - no matter how loudly you bang them.

It's ironic that the only two ATG's from this era (Hamilton and Alonso) have arguably came from the most modest backgrounds.

The reality with motorsport is that unlike most sports, talent and hard work doesn't necessarily go a long way to getting you a chance. As a % of what is needed to 'make it' in motorsport, talent and hard work make up a far smaller % in getting given opportunity, than say a sport like football or rugby (where talent and hard work should nearly always see you get given a chance). Sure you need it - but there are plenty of obstacles that talent and hard work alone can't remove.

To be modern F1 driver you need the stars to align for you -

1) You need to show an interest in motorsport from a young age,
2) You need a family member to show an interest in developing that interest,
3) You need to able to secure funding to grow that interest (better funding = better equipment = better coaching = getting faster),
4) You need to be good enough to be competing at the front of championships and series,
5) You need to make connections to open doors,
6) Your body needs to naturally be slim - a growth spurt at the wrong time can ruin you,
7) You need serious money as you go up the series - be that wealth or sponsorship - you need to have that money.

I compete in motorsport, and I was in my 30's before it was even an option to me as I've had to fund myself and had no family interest in the sport. For 95% of people, that is how it is. Starting at that age and without serious backing, you're never going to be anything more than making up the numbers on regional and national level club championships, with a few really talented drivers being the exceptions. No matter how good you are, it is a big ask to compete against guys that have 20+ years of seat time on you.

But motorsport is all about money. The British Touring Cars for example, quite a high level of motorsport, but every single one of those drivers is paying for their seat. I've competed against 2 of them currently running in the series, and whilst undoubtedly very good drivers - there were other guys just as good but didn't have the resources or connections to get a drive at a higher level - even though if they were given the opportunity, I'm pretty sure they'd do well.

That is just the reality of it - race cars are fuelled on money, and if you have the option of bringing a driver who is 95/100 with limited funding, or a driver who is 92/100 with plenty funding...... you'll bring in the 92/100 driver.

There are surprisingly few drivers who are getting paid directly to compete in professional motorsport.

I agree with all that. I competed myself at club level karting self funded. I think money is just as critical at karting level as you have to be in and win a national karting championship to have any chance of being picked up by a sponsor and to achieve that you probably need a budget around 30k and prove your worth against very talented competition.

But then funding that and doing well..... it's no guarantee that you pick up a sponsor and are able to develop yourself. From my own experience picking up a sponsor is more to do with the circles around you, than it is your ability on the track. I dare say that echoes at junior kart levels.

I mean moving onto the next level from karts, not everyone will find a sponsor(s) that are able and willing to stump the £100k needed - which is where having wealth comes in - you don't need to focus on sponsorship to progress.

Even in spec series, some spec is better than others. Throwing money at getting the best people to build the best cars using parts that are within the best tolerances - in a tight field that can be the difference between middle of the pack and front row. You can also afford more seat time, more coaching, more testing - huge advantages. (I know for my racing testing typically costs about £150, which isn't that much but.... factor in a set of tyres (£500), fuel (£80), oil (£50), travel (£100) - and a test session is costing the guts of a grand.

There are plenty of guys who had the talent to make it, that simply never got dealt a hand in life that enabled them to make it. Do you think Max Verstappen would have made it to F1 by 17 if in a hypothetical universe he had exactly the same talent but his dad was nothing more than a successful small business owner, that whilst had the funds to get his kid started.......

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:41 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:57 am

These guys are facing the inevitable criticism from some that they simply bought their way into F1. But they're a mixed bunch and I don't think it's quite that clear cut but just as a discussion point who do you think is there on merit and whose wallet is bigger than their talent.

I only really saw Norris coming through so can't really comment on their Pre-F1 careers, but a quick bit of Googling and something does jump out to me.

Norris and Stroll
They generally moved up each year in terms of the categories they raced in
The won races and titles

Latifi and Mazepin
They jumped between categories
They didn't actually win much but still got drives

So I think there's a split but I admit I don't actually know much about how their careers have actually been funded and what that signifies.

Thoughts then? Is it just accepted as part of the game? Should the FIA mandate minimum championship positions in feeder series as part of the super-license? Is it OK to buy your way in but then it's sink or swim?

I don't think you can group Stroll and Norris together. Stroll basically bought the F3 championship. Mazepin and Latifi could have won in those circumstances. Another name you have to throw in their is Schumacher who comes from a wealthier background than Norris.

It's no coincidence that five years ago Norris would have come from by far the wealthiest background in F1 whilst in 2021 he will be 5th. That is a huge change. The FIA superlicence points system killed off the cheaper series and killed off the chances of progressing for most young boys and girls in the process. It also made the already expensive series even more expensive as now they don't have the competition. This thinning out of the talent pool obviously reduces the competition for the sons of billionaires and very wealthy who can also buy plenty of advantages anyway.

Next season looks set to make things far worse unless the FIA do anything to prevent wealthy drivers running an F2 and F3 season simultaneously.

DFWdude wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:31 pm

"Show me the Money! Stroll, Latifi, Mazepin and Norris..."

Aren't we forgetting Perez, too?

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:24 pm

DFWdude wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:31 pm

"Show me the Money! Stroll, Latifi, Mazepin and Norris..."

Aren't we forgetting Perez, too?

Perez has a sponsor. He doesn't come from massive money.

DFWdude wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:52 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:24 pm

DFWdude wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:31 pm

"Show me the Money! Stroll, Latifi, Mazepin and Norris..."

Aren't we forgetting Perez, too?

Perez has a sponsor. He doesn't come from massive money.

There's a difference?

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:59 pm

Just to be clear this is a discussion about drivers routes into F1 and at what point as fans you feel it becomes clear that the driver has literally bought his way in and doesn't have a CV that would suggest they would otherwise get anywhere near it.

The 4 names I picked are only because they are the ones that currently come up most frequently in this context. Yes I'm well aware Perez benefited from enormous backing and that Norris's family although wealthy haven't gone as far as buying drives in the same way Stroll has for example. And that's kind of the point, there are different levels. Drivers like Hamilton get decent funding because they are great prospects, Perez presumably because he was the best prospect and right nationality for his backer etc.

I think Stroll is an interesting one, clearly the family are beyond wealthy and Snr has bought opportunities for Jnr but fair play to Stroll he's made the most of them and is doing the job.

Is the super license system doing enough to weed out drivers that really "shouldn't" be there? My understanding is you require 40 pts from your last 3 years results so I thought I'd see how Mazepin got his and please correct these if they're wrong but I got

2018: GP3, P2 (20)
2019: F3 Asia, P3 (12)
2020: F2, P5 (20)
=52 pts

DFWdude wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:52 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:24 pm

DFWdude wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:31 pm

"Show me the Money! Stroll, Latifi, Mazepin and Norris..."

Aren't we forgetting Perez, too?

Perez has a sponsor. He doesn't come from massive money.

There's a difference?