planetf1.com

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:51 am

Lots of examples like this. Particularly in academia.

Sadly, Colin Wright isn't some innocent researcher purged from campus for wrong think. The research he produces is predicated on his ideological beliefs rather than looking at what the biology and social science say.

Wright is the Charles Murray of sex.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:48 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:51 am

Lots of examples like this. Particularly in academia.

Sadly, Colin Wright isn't some innocent researcher purged from campus for wrong think. The research he produces is predicated on his ideological beliefs rather than looking at what the biology and social science say.

Wright is the Charles Murray of sex.

So he thinks the wrong thing?

Isn't that kind of the point.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:09 am

So he thinks the wrong thing?

Isn't that kind of the point.

Science with an ideological premise isn't science. It's where both Wright and the Critical Theorists go awry.

Wright is a flat Earth scientist who thinks he's Galileo.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:09 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:48 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:51 am

Lots of examples like this. Particularly in academia.

Sadly, Colin Wright isn't some innocent researcher purged from campus for wrong think. The research he produces is predicated on his ideological beliefs rather than looking at what the biology and social science say.

Wright is the Charles Murray of sex.

So he thinks the wrong thing?

Isn't that kind of the point.

Having a different opinion or thinking differently is not the same as denying facts. If one goes around claiming the earth is flat nobody has an obligation to give them a platform or treat them with any seriousness.

A.J. wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:36 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:09 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:48 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:51 am

Lots of examples like this. Particularly in academia.

Sadly, Colin Wright isn't some innocent researcher purged from campus for wrong think. The research he produces is predicated on his ideological beliefs rather than looking at what the biology and social science say.

Wright is the Charles Murray of sex.

So he thinks the wrong thing?

Isn't that kind of the point.

Having a different opinion or thinking differently is not the same as denying facts. If one goes around claiming the earth is flat nobody has an obligation to give them a platform or treat them with any seriousness.

This I am in agreement with of course.

I'll respect your right to have an opinion and express it, as long as you respect my right to ignore or disagree with it.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:36 pm

I'm not quite sure I can quite grasp what I am reading in this thread.

4 years ago a video was released of Donald Trump saying that because he was so powerful he could grab women by their sexual organs and they could do nothing about it.

At the time this was defended as 'locker room talk' and that he clearly didn't mean it, or that he would actually do it. And that actually doing it would be clearly abhorrent. Because grabbing someone by their sexual organs without consent is sexual assault.

Weirdly, I think it was also presumed Trump meant he could do that without evidence, because it would just be their word against his. I think everyone assumed that if there was video evidence of him doing that then he wouldn't get away with it.

If we fast forward to what has just happened, not only did Mazepin grab a woman by a sexual part of her anatomy without consent - he filmed himself doing it and posted it on social media.

Suggesting that there are meaningful consequences for those actions is not cancel culture, it's not political correctness gone mad, it's not woke politics obsessing with virtue signalling.

Cancel culture is when people get fired for things they have said - for example when James Gunn got fired from Disney for jokes he had made on Twitter 10 years ago - not for when people get fired for criminal or unethical actions they have done.

As for arguments that go along the lines of 'she knew the risks when she got in the car' - this is a complete nonsense argument. Just because there was a chance she might get sexually assaulted by a guy she gets in a car with doesn't mean the guy gets away with it if he assaults her.

If someone hitchhikes there is a danger the truck driver is a murderer or a rapist, and you are taking the risk that they will murder or assault you. However, if the truck driver murder or assaults the hitchhiker that does not mean they get away with it because 'the hitchhiker knew the risks'

There's a massive difference between Trump's statement and the Mazepin video, which you've completely missed. Trump was talking about WOMEN; he is under the belief that he can walk up to any woman he chooses and sexually assault her. The Dubai video was A (singular) woman the details of who's personal relationship with Maz we do not know, other than a 5s video and a couple of dubious tweet from both of them.

If Mazepin had walked up to a random girl in the paddock and groped her, there would be no debate about it; abhorrent. That's not the case here.

I've been to Dubai a few times, nearly emigrated for work and know a lot of long term friends out there. This kind of thing would not shock them in the slightest. The reason for that is it's a whole industry out there. Attractive, young wannabe model's a.k.a. 'influencers' who's career, if you can call it that, is hanging around with rich guys on yachts, corporate jets, private gigs, VIP lounges etc.

These women aren't stupid, they know the deal and what they're supposed to offer in return. There is a city full of women who will happily perform oral sex on a guy in the back of his Lamborghini, if she can then be photographed getting out of it in front of a super yacht on the marina. The idea that they're all bashful, Victorian damsels, who would be ashamed of showing their ankles in public is laughable. Yes, it's vulgar in the extreme. Do I like it? No. Would I wish that kind of lifestyle for my sister or daughter? Absolutely not but it exists whether you want it to or not.

Now.... I want to stress, I DON'T KNOW the relationship between these two. Nobody know how long they've known each other and in what context. However, if they were willingly engaged in consensual intercourse 20 minutes before or after that video, saying, "OMG he touched her boob," suddenly looks a bit trivial.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:09 pm

There's a massive difference between Trump's statement and the Mazepin video, which you've completely missed.

I don't see a massive difference, two wealthy men with massive egos getting what they want.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:09 pm

These women aren't stupid, they know the deal and what they're supposed to offer in return.

Don't you see the inherent problem in this kind of unofficial sex work in a country where sex work is illegal and the women involved are heavily fined, imprisoned or deported? If there was an arrangement between the two, Mazepin could still have violated the terms of their agreement and taken liberties that she couldn't turn to the authorities to report.

Yeah just to clarify, though I'm not sure it should need clarification to be honest, sexual assault is a horrible thing and a very serious matter.

That's not what's being debated here. I apologise for derailing this slightly by using the term cancel culture, it is a buzz term as people have rightly pointed out and I generally try to avoid them as they have a habit of derailing a conversation and leading to people inferring a meaning to your words which was not there, this thread being case in point. So my bad, I got lazy and used a buzz term to condense my post.

The point in this case though is that we dont have all the information to determine if a crime has taken place here. We have a 10 second video clip, a statement from the woman in the video clip saying that he didn't do anything to make her feel uncomfortable and some further statements which could indicate that the first was coerced but are too vague to say so with any confidence. That's it, that's all we have.

Now, im in total agreement with pushes for sexual assault victims to feel more comfortable speaking out and I think it's completely reasonable for people to want the matter investigated by the relevant authorities. In domestic violence cases where a neighbor calls the police it's common practice for the potential victim to be separated from the potential suspect and asked to give a statement, I see no reason why that practice couldn't be applied here too.

What I take issue with are the attempts to circumvent due process and completely do away with the right to be treated innocent until proven guilty in light of all the facts. Here there has been a rush to condemm and issue punishment since day 1, based on incredibly scant information, some of it even indicating no punishment is due.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:28 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:09 pm

There's a massive difference between Trump's statement and the Mazepin video, which you've completely missed.

I don't see a massive difference, two wealthy men with massive egos getting what they want.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:09 pm

These women aren't stupid, they know the deal and what they're supposed to offer in return.

Don't you see the inherent problem in this kind of unofficial sex work in a country where sex work is illegal and the women involved are heavily fined, imprisoned or deported? If there was an arrangement between the two, Mazepin could still have violated the terms of their agreement and taken liberties that she couldn't turn to the authorities to report.

First point; I've explained it as clearly as I can. I'm sorry I can't be any more coherent than that. The difference is in the attitudes of the women involved.

Second point; what I think doesn't matter, the key to this is THEY don't see a problem with it. Both the men and women involved are, by and large, getting what they want for the transaction. These women don't tend to get arrested, deported or whatever for two reasons. Firstly, it's not a direct sex for money transaction and therefore not officially prostitution. Secondly, the local Arabs - with the power and money - are more than happy with the situation and there's no pressure from them on the leaders to change anything.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:09 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:36 pm

I'm not quite sure I can quite grasp what I am reading in this thread.

4 years ago a video was released of Donald Trump saying that because he was so powerful he could grab women by their sexual organs and they could do nothing about it.

At the time this was defended as 'locker room talk' and that he clearly didn't mean it, or that he would actually do it. And that actually doing it would be clearly abhorrent. Because grabbing someone by their sexual organs without consent is sexual assault.

Weirdly, I think it was also presumed Trump meant he could do that without evidence, because it would just be their word against his. I think everyone assumed that if there was video evidence of him doing that then he wouldn't get away with it.

If we fast forward to what has just happened, not only did Mazepin grab a woman by a sexual part of her anatomy without consent - he filmed himself doing it and posted it on social media.

Suggesting that there are meaningful consequences for those actions is not cancel culture, it's not political correctness gone mad, it's not woke politics obsessing with virtue signalling.

Cancel culture is when people get fired for things they have said - for example when James Gunn got fired from Disney for jokes he had made on Twitter 10 years ago - not for when people get fired for criminal or unethical actions they have done.

As for arguments that go along the lines of 'she knew the risks when she got in the car' - this is a complete nonsense argument. Just because there was a chance she might get sexually assaulted by a guy she gets in a car with doesn't mean the guy gets away with it if he assaults her.

If someone hitchhikes there is a danger the truck driver is a murderer or a rapist, and you are taking the risk that they will murder or assault you. However, if the truck driver murder or assaults the hitchhiker that does not mean they get away with it because 'the hitchhiker knew the risks'

There's a massive difference between Trump's statement and the Mazepin video, which you've completely missed. Trump was talking about WOMEN; he is under the belief that he can walk up to any woman he chooses and sexually assault her. The Dubai video was A (singular) woman the details of who's personal relationship with Maz we do not know, other than a 5s video and a couple of dubious tweet from both of them.

If Mazepin had walked up to a random girl in the paddock and groped her, there would be no debate about it; abhorrent. That's not the case here.

I've been to Dubai a few times, nearly emigrated for work and know a lot of long term friends out there. This kind of thing would not shock them in the slightest. The reason for that is it's a whole industry out there. Attractive, young wannabe model's a.k.a. 'influencers' who's career, if you can call it that, is hanging around with rich guys on yachts, corporate jets, private gigs, VIP lounges etc.

These women aren't stupid, they know the deal and what they're supposed to offer in return. There is a city full of women who will happily perform oral sex on a guy in the back of his Lamborghini, if she can then be photographed getting out of it in front of a super yacht on the marina. The idea that they're all bashful, Victorian damsels, who would be ashamed of showing their ankles in public is laughable. Yes, it's vulgar in the extreme. Do I like it? No. Would I wish that kind of lifestyle for my sister or daughter? Absolutely not but it exists whether you want it to or not.

Now.... I want to stress, I DON'T KNOW the relationship between these two. Nobody know how long they've known each other and in what context. However, if they were willingly engaged in consensual intercourse 20 minutes before or after that video, saying, "OMG he touched her boob," suddenly looks a bit trivial.

It doesn't shock me either that it happened. Even in the UK - a country which is at the safer end of the spectrum for woman's safety and legal protections - has a woeful record at prosecuting rapists, let alone more minor sexual assault. F1 journalist Hazel Southwell shared her experience of the British criminal justice system when she got raped:

https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article/d3n ... y-trial-uk

Your trivilisation of the incident as "OMG he touched her boob' speaks volumes for where countries that see themselves as advanced are actually at. Of course it's not the same as being violently raped, but - at the moment it happened, alone in a moving car with two men - she was not to know that would be the end of it.

You are correct in what you say that the state of their relationship is uncertain. And, for sure, if there were engaged in consensual sex just before the incident then it would completely change the narrative of the video. But if they were engaged in consensual sex before going on the car trip - and then he suddenly grabs her boob - while filming and in front of a third person... consent isn't someone you grant once and lasts forever. Of course, if it's a genuine misunderstanding - especially given the levels of intoxication - then it's a forgivable misunderstanding. But you don't post genuine misunderstandings on Instagram.

Even at the time that she posted her "we're good friends and I posted this as a joke" story made no sense at the time. It meant she had to get hold of his phone, unlock it and then make the decision to post a video that was ultimately going to trash her reputation (if that was the reality)

Her and Mazepin only started following each other after people pointed out that if they were good friends it was weird they didn't follow each other. Once the F1 season was over she posted all of the not-very-subtle stuff about not letting a-holes touch you and they stopped following each other and Mazepin later deleted all of his social media stuff.

Of course, non of this proves beyond doubt that it was not consensual - but constructing a narrative that makes sense of it with them as friends becomes harder and harder and Occam's razor applies.

As for social media influencers that hang out in Dubai, to hang around rich guys and live a privileged lifestyle - in exchange for favours - for sure this exists, and her instagram feed certainly suggests she is living some degree of influencer lifestyle out there rather than being an investor in the oil industry. But that still means squat, it doesn't matter if she is an escort or even a prostitute - people still can refuse consent.

And before the issue of the laws in the UAE are brought up, I'm referring from a moral standpoint. There are countries where it is legal to have sexual intercourse with 12 year olds. If an adult did that while in one of those countries - they would still be considered a paedophile, and immoral, by people outside that country.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

Your trivilisation of the incident as "OMG he touched her boob' speaks volumes for where countries that see themselves as advanced are actually at. Of course it's not the same as being violently raped, but - at the moment it happened, alone in a moving car with two men - she was not to know that would be the end of it.

No, it speaks volumes of the fact that you're trying to fit the lifestyles of social media influencer girls into your paradigm of modern feminism.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

Even at the time that she posted her "we're good friends and I posted this as a joke" story made no sense at the time. It meant she had to get hold of his phone, unlock it and then make the decision to post a video that was ultimately going to trash her reputation (if that was the reality)

And again, you're talking as if every woman out there is a respectable, career driven western woman, in which case you're right, this would indeed be hugely embarassing. For a social media influencer however, this is solid gold. There are a million pretty girls posting bikini pics on Instagram, you need an edge. A unique selling point. If you're the girl in the news being groped by someone rich and famous, it makes PERFECT sense to get hold of his phone and upload it. I'm not saying she did but it's 100% plausible.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

Her and Mazepin only started following each other after people pointed out that if they were good friends it was weird they didn't follow each other. Once the F1 season was over she posted all of the not-very-subtle stuff about not letting a-holes touch you and they stopped following each other and Mazepin later deleted all of his social media stuff.

Of course, non of this proves beyond doubt that it was not consensual - but constructing a narrative that makes sense of it with them as friends becomes harder and harder and Occam's razor applies.

'Friend' is open to interpretation. If Mazepin is her f**k buddy or sugar daddy, she's hardly going to say that out loud.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

As for social media influencers that hang out in Dubai, to hang around rich guys and live a privileged lifestyle - in exchange for favours - for sure this exists, and her instagram feed certainly suggests she is living some degree of influencer lifestyle out there rather than being an investor in the oil industry. But that still means squat, it doesn't matter if she is an escort or even a prostitute - people still can refuse consent.

And before the issue of the laws in the UAE are brought up, I'm referring from a moral standpoint. There are countries where it is legal to have sexual intercourse with 12 year olds. If an adult did that while in one of those countries - they would still be considered a paedophile, and immoral, by people outside that country.

Dubai really has little to do with this, other than being a congregation for the super wealthy and their clingers on. There's no country in the world where it's illegal for pretty girls to hang around rich guys.

I don't place much if any importance on her subsequent posts about hanging around with donkey orifices either. I've seen that plenty of times on my own Facebook page from girls who picked up some d*ck head on Tinder and after they've slept together, suddenly he's stopped texting her and "men are such a*se holes who only want one thing!"

I don't like this side of society, I'm not defending it but it's there and there are women who are more than complicit. You cannot make any judgments on 5 second videos, the fact is neither of us know.

As for the whole consent issue. Supposing you come home one evening, grab your partners bum and she says, "f**k off, I'm not in the mood!" Have you just sexually assaulted her? Even though you've been in a relationship for 5 years, she has now refused consent when you sexually touched her.

The not Instagram friends thing is a bit silly. I have good friends I don't follow on Instagram and besides that most people in the public eye have a private Instagram as well where they have their actual friends and share more personal stuff. They may well have been friends on their personal Insta. Of course they may not but my point is the fact they weren't friends on their public Instagram accounts means nothing.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:15 pm

The not Instagram friends thing is a bit silly. I have good friends I don't follow on Instagram and besides that most people in the public eye have a private Instagram as well where they have their actual friends and share more personal stuff. They may well have been friends on their personal Insta. Of course they may not but my point is the fact they weren't friends on their public Instagram accounts means nothing.

For crying out loud that's entirely true, and I 100% agree with exactly what you have just written there, except that isn't what I wrote, or said. You have deliberately taken one element of a chain of events and placed in it isolation.

They were called out for not being friends, which I agree it's not evidence of anything. They then followed each other - which still isn't evidence of anything and makes sense of they were friends and wanted to dispel any doubt.

It's the subsequent unfollow when she started posting the series of coded references to the events that makes no sense if they were friends.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

Your trivilisation of the incident as "OMG he touched her boob' speaks volumes for where countries that see themselves as advanced are actually at. Of course it's not the same as being violently raped, but - at the moment it happened, alone in a moving car with two men - she was not to know that would be the end of it.

No, it speaks volumes of the fact that you're trying to fit the lifestyles of social media influencer girls into your paradigm of modern feminism.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

Even at the time that she posted her "we're good friends and I posted this as a joke" story made no sense at the time. It meant she had to get hold of his phone, unlock it and then make the decision to post a video that was ultimately going to trash her reputation (if that was the reality)

And again, you're talking as if every woman out there is a respectable, career driven western woman, in which case you're right, this would indeed be hugely embarassing. For a social media influencer however, this is solid gold. There are a million pretty girls posting bikini pics on Instagram, you need an edge. A unique selling point. If you're the girl in the news being groped by someone rich and famous, it makes PERFECT sense to get hold of his phone and upload it. I'm not saying she did but it's 100% plausible.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

Her and Mazepin only started following each other after people pointed out that if they were good friends it was weird they didn't follow each other. Once the F1 season was over she posted all of the not-very-subtle stuff about not letting a-holes touch you and they stopped following each other and Mazepin later deleted all of his social media stuff.

Of course, non of this proves beyond doubt that it was not consensual - but constructing a narrative that makes sense of it with them as friends becomes harder and harder and Occam's razor applies.

'Friend' is open to interpretation. If Mazepin is her f**k buddy or sugar daddy, she's hardly going to say that out loud.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 pm

As for social media influencers that hang out in Dubai, to hang around rich guys and live a privileged lifestyle - in exchange for favours - for sure this exists, and her instagram feed certainly suggests she is living some degree of influencer lifestyle out there rather than being an investor in the oil industry. But that still means squat, it doesn't matter if she is an escort or even a prostitute - people still can refuse consent.

And before the issue of the laws in the UAE are brought up, I'm referring from a moral standpoint. There are countries where it is legal to have sexual intercourse with 12 year olds. If an adult did that while in one of those countries - they would still be considered a paedophile, and immoral, by people outside that country.

Dubai really has little to do with this, other than being a congregation for the super wealthy and their clingers on. There's no country in the world where it's illegal for pretty girls to hang around rich guys.

I don't place much if any importance on her subsequent posts about hanging around with donkey orifices either. I've seen that plenty of times on my own Facebook page from girls who picked up some d*ck head on Tinder and after they've slept together, suddenly he's stopped texting her and "men are such a*se holes who only want one thing!"

I don't like this side of society, I'm not defending it but it's there and there are women who are more than complicit. You cannot make any judgments on 5 second videos, the fact is neither of us know.

As for the whole consent issue. Supposing you come home one evening, grab your partners bum and she says, "f**k off, I'm not in the mood!" Have you just sexually assaulted her? Even though you've been in a relationship for 5 years, she has now refused consent when you sexually touched her.

If she is a sugar daughter, and Mazepin did nothing wrong, then she is going to tank her business by feeding a fuel of allegations against him, not to mention probably put her personal safety in jeopardy.

The situation about grabbing a partner's backside and her not being in the mood is completely different in several levels and you know that, and I really shouldn't need to have to spell it out to you.

Neither of us know anything more than he touched her boob and she made a rude gesture. What’s happened on social media since is tit for tat.

The difference here is I don’t claim to know their relationship, I’m not taking sides. You seem to assume that the man must be the guilty party based on scenarios you’ve constructed in your mind based around a feminist paradigm you seem everyone should live under.

I’m going with Occam’s Razor. An Instagram model is hanging around with a Russian billionaire. I’m pretty sure I know what the deal is there but I can’t be certain. It’s going to take more than a 5 second video of a boob being grabbed to convince me that there was a sexual assault here.

From being in Dubai and seeing these ‘relationships’ being played out, the idea that the women don’t know what’s going on is laughable.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:04 pm

I’m going with Occam’s Razor. An Instagram model is hanging around with a Russian billionaire. I’m pretty sure I know what the deal is there but I can’t be certain.

I wish I could live in your world where vulnerable women are casually exploited by rich men and that's not something deeply concerning. Mazepin had a disproportionate amount of power in that situation and he knew it. Whether it was consensual or not isn't really the point, it's his power over her sexuality, pawing her like she's his pet.

No matter how much of daddy's money Mazepin pay her, she not a doll to be played with whenever he desires. Some men really do confuse consensual sex work with ownership.

There are rumours that Mazepin might lose his seat but I can't really imagine Haas giving up that money. I dunno how much they're getting but I can't imagine that whatever is reasonably required is beyond the budget of papa.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:28 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:04 pm

I’m going with Occam’s Razor. An Instagram model is hanging around with a Russian billionaire. I’m pretty sure I know what the deal is there but I can’t be certain.

I wish I could live in your world where vulnerable women are casually exploited by rich men and that's not something deeply concerning. Mazepin had a disproportionate amount of power in that situation and he knew it. Whether it was consensual or not isn't really the point, it's his power over her sexuality, pawing her like she's his pet.

No matter how much of daddy's money Mazepin pay her, she not a doll to be played with whenever he desires. Some men really do confuse consensual sex work with ownership.

Yeah, sure it's a one way thing. These women definitely aren't picking out rich guys deliberately for the free drinks, parties, yachts, villas and private jets.

You seem to assume these women are all the naive embodiment of Victorian innocence and chastity. As if she was bought and sold at a slave auction and has no say in this whatsoever.

Honestly, go to Dubai. Try and save some of these 'poor vulnerable women', hanging out with rich guys, drinking free champagne in VIP lounges. Run up to a girl boarding a yacht with a man, twice her age, and say, "don't do it, you're being exploited, he might try to touch your boobs! Come and have a cup of tea with me instead, it'll clear your mind and you'll be safe." She will likely burst out laughing.

This isn't my world. This isn't what I want but it's there and men and women are both willing participants. Frankly, your belief that these women are so naive and out dated in their attitudes towards sex that they don't realise what's going on and the men are controlling everything, is in itself a little sexist.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 pm

This isn't my world. This isn't what I want but it's there and men and women are both willing participants. Frankly, your belief that these women are so naive and out dated in their attitudes towards sex that they don't realise what's going on and the men are controlling everything, is in itself a little sexist.

I'm not quite sure why you seem to be focusing so much on the (straw-man) point that the women have no idea what's going on, or are naive or innocent. I don't think anyone made that claim.

Meanwhile, you seem to be dismissing the idea that people who willingly got themselves into a situation can still be exploited and taken advantage of in that situation -- which they willingly got themselves into, but which changed in ways they didn't have control over.

I think it says a lot, to the guys that think this behaviour was perfectly fine and consentual. The weird response of her explaining why it is her fault and not Mazapins should ring alarm bells. Many women have come out and had said how they have been victims of such harrassment but have had to work up the courage to laugh it off or pretend nothing of it, to protect themselves socially and physically, but the mental and emotional damage is still there.

So before we draw on our chauvinistic powers and simplify it down to "looks just fine to me", let's take the time to understand in many cases that's just not true and the impact of promoting our allowing such behaviour onto victims.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 pm

These women definitely aren't picking out rich guys deliberately for the free drinks, parties, yachts, villas and private jets.

Of course, it's impossible for women to be vulnerable in private in the company of rich men who they barely know! They knew the risks, amirite?

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 pm

You seem to assume these women are all the naive embodiment of Victorian innocence and chastity. As if she was bought and sold at a slave auction and has no say in this whatsoever.

I hate to just repeat what Exediron has said, but you are clearly projecting this strawman. In contrast, you assume hyperagency for these women where they never ever do anything that makes them uncomfortable alone in the company of rich men.

Ultimately, this is daringly close to victim blaming for my liking.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 pm

Frankly, your belief that these women are so naive and out dated in their attitudes towards sex that they don't realise what's going on and the men are controlling everything, is in itself a little sexist.

You are doing that projecting thing again. If you don't think a rich man on his yacht/at his party with a sex worker has disproportionately massive power in that situation, I can't imagine we'll see eye to eye on this issue.

Clearly we wont see eye to eye. I can only assume some of you have never been to Dubai and seen the stuff goes on. If you tell anyone out there, "hey I heard about this girl who was in the back of a Porsche with this billionaire and he grabbed her boob," nobody will bat an eyelid, whether you're talking to a man or a woman.

Saying it's victim blaming, that the man has all the authority etc. is completely wide of the mark. Women fly across the world (or across the Caucasus at least) to willingly put themselves in this situation. These men aren't kidnappers, they don't travel around rounding up all the pretty women in cages and flying them back to the UAE. Yes, they have all the authority on their yacht or villa but who chooses to enter that environment in the first place?

If what you're saying is true, this incident is clearly a massive warning to all the women out there thinking of becoming involved. I'm sure seeing this will make them think twice about who they're hanging out with and we'll see a massive decrease in gold diggers hanging out with millionaires.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:02 am

Saying it's victim blaming, that the man has all the authority etc. is completely wide of the mark. Women fly across the world (or across the Caucasus at least) to willingly put themselves in this situation. These men aren't kidnappers, they don't travel around rounding up all the pretty women in cages and flying them back to the UAE. Yes, they have all the authority on their yacht or villa but who chooses to enter that environment in the first place?

That is the definition of victim blaming! Yes, she was assaulted, but look at the choices she made that led her to be assaulted!

Exediron wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:10 am

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:02 am

Saying it's victim blaming, that the man has all the authority etc. is completely wide of the mark. Women fly across the world (or across the Caucasus at least) to willingly put themselves in this situation. These men aren't kidnappers, they don't travel around rounding up all the pretty women in cages and flying them back to the UAE. Yes, they have all the authority on their yacht or villa but who chooses to enter that environment in the first place?

That is the definition of victim blaming! Yes, she was assaulted, but look at the choices she made that led her to be assaulted!

Victim blaming is saying stuff like, "she shouldn't have gone out wearing such a short skirt," or, "well it was her own fault, she was drunk."

If you're entering into an environment where there is a long established transaction of sex for an easy, glamourous, billionaire lifestyle, it's different. You've chosen to enter into a different social construct. Not one I like and never one I'd chose for myself but it is a choice. She went into that with her eyes open.

Anyway, I've explained my view as best I can. I'm afraid my view of feminism doesn't stretch as far as, "women should be able to hang out with billionaires in Dubai without fear of sexual harassment." If you do, then clearly we've reached a fundamental difference in our outlook on life.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:41 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:10 am

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:02 am

Saying it's victim blaming, that the man has all the authority etc. is completely wide of the mark. Women fly across the world (or across the Caucasus at least) to willingly put themselves in this situation. These men aren't kidnappers, they don't travel around rounding up all the pretty women in cages and flying them back to the UAE. Yes, they have all the authority on their yacht or villa but who chooses to enter that environment in the first place?

That is the definition of victim blaming! Yes, she was assaulted, but look at the choices she made that led her to be assaulted!

Victim blaming is saying stuff like, "she shouldn't have gone out wearing such a short skirt," or, "well it was her own fault, she was drunk."

If you're entering into an environment where there is a long established transaction of sex for an easy, glamourous, billionaire lifestyle, it's different. You've chosen to enter into a different social construct. Not one I like and never one I'd chose for myself but it is a choice. She went into that with her eyes open.

Anyway, I've explained my view as best I can. I'm afraid my view of feminism doesn't stretch as far as, "women should be able to hang out with billionaires in Dubai without fear of sexual harassment." If you do, then clearly we've reached a fundamental difference in our outlook on life.

Are you saying if women choose to hang out with billionaires in Dubai then sexual harassment is part of that?

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:41 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:10 am

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:02 am

Saying it's victim blaming, that the man has all the authority etc. is completely wide of the mark. Women fly across the world (or across the Caucasus at least) to willingly put themselves in this situation. These men aren't kidnappers, they don't travel around rounding up all the pretty women in cages and flying them back to the UAE. Yes, they have all the authority on their yacht or villa but who chooses to enter that environment in the first place?

That is the definition of victim blaming! Yes, she was assaulted, but look at the choices she made that led her to be assaulted!

Victim blaming is saying stuff like, "she shouldn't have gone out wearing such a short skirt," or, "well it was her own fault, she was drunk."

If you're entering into an environment where there is a long established transaction of sex for an easy, glamourous, billionaire lifestyle, it's different. You've chosen to enter into a different social construct. Not one I like and never one I'd chose for myself but it is a choice. She went into that with her eyes open.

Anyway, I've explained my view as best I can. I'm afraid my view of feminism doesn't stretch as far as, "women should be able to hang out with billionaires in Dubai without fear of sexual harassment." If you do, then clearly we've reached a fundamental difference in our outlook on life.

Could you please explain the bit in bold? I'm not sure if I should be feeling shocked or not.

JN23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:05 pm

#WeRaceForMoney

JN23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:05 pm

Surprised, with the silence from Haas & various bio changes etc I expected a different announcement.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:04 pm

Neither of us know anything more than he touched her boob and she made a rude gesture. What’s happened on social media since is tit for tat.

The difference here is I don’t claim to know their relationship, I’m not taking sides. You seem to assume that the man must be the guilty party based on scenarios you’ve constructed in your mind based around a feminist paradigm you seem everyone should live under.

I’m going with Occam’s Razor. An Instagram model is hanging around with a Russian billionaire. I’m pretty sure I know what the deal is there but I can’t be certain. It’s going to take more than a 5 second video of a boob being grabbed to convince me that there was a sexual assault here.

From being in Dubai and seeing these ‘relationships’ being played out, the idea that the women don’t know what’s going on is laughable.

I never claimed to know their relationship, I said if he got fired it wouldn't be cancel culture. I agree with you entirely - nobody knows what went on in the car for certain except those involved, or if anyone who has viewed any more video evidence beyond what the world has seen. That's a huge part of the problem when prosecuting rape or sexual assault cases.

I also agree with you that grabbing a boob is not on the same level as a violent rape, and if it was the only non consensual action that happened it would probably be going too extreme to be pursuing any serious criminal charges beyond public disclosure and a restraining order. I do feel that when people hear the words 'sexual assault' it's binary label and is inferred people are accusing someone as being as horrific as a gang raper. That is ridiculous too.

I also agree that what the video shows is not enough to start basing a full opinion on, what is shown in the video is a brief snapshot. If it was consensual then as far as I am concerned then there is no issue with it. People can get drunk and have whatever consensual sexual encounters with other consenting adults they wish.

I agree with you that women who go to Dubai to hang out with rich guys know the risks that they are taking - however that doesn't mean if they end up assaulted, or harmed, that the person who harmed them should escape prosecution. They are still committing a crime. A security guard for a bank truck knows there is a high risk they may get shot. It doesn't mean the bank robbers should not be charged with a crime if they shoot the security guard.

But if the chain of events. Mazepin posts the video to his social media, a hastily posted explanation follows, a week later insinuations drop that the earlier explanation was a front, the woman throws fuel on the fire with her social media and Mazepin withdraws all apologies and deletes his social media, and this leads to his dismissal from the team.

There is no explanation for this that makes sense other than him acting inappropriately and nonconsensually. It's one thing to expose a member of the Russian elite when the accusations are true. But to fabricate claims that led to Mazepin losing his F1 career? That isn't going to end well for her. And even if she wasn't targeted by the Mazepin's for doing that, it would ruin the 'career' she had as an influencer/escort. No one would trust her, you don't blackmail these sorts of people.

But even more significant than that - let's assume she's stupid and naive and decided blackmailing the Mazepins on a lie is a big brain move - Haas isn't going to tear up Mazepin's contract unless they have no other option. Haas need that money, that's what made this whole incident so difficult for them. The Mazepins bring more money to the table than all of these sponsorship deals combined - Haas sure as hell are not going to let go their driver just because of an ambiguous video on Instragram.

As it turns out, Haas now have confirmed the driver line up, so he's not been fired, so hasn't been cancelled! So all these moaning about cancel culture was literally over nothing. But if they do fire him over it, then it's incredibly unlikely he was innocent.

Signing this lad seems like a case of Haas really shooting themselves in the foot. They have signed Mick Schumacher, the son of a driver a lot of people consider to be the best ever, that's an absolute PR gift. After a miserable couple of seasons on and off track and the Rich Energy humiliation, it's exactly what the team needed.

That's all been thrown out the window now and all anyone is talking about is the brat in the other car who is a liability on and off the track. If he was any good then I might be able to understand it somewhat. Money talks I guess.

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:33 pm

Signing this lad seems like a case of Haas really shooting themselves in the foot. They have signed Mick Schumacher, the son of a driver a lot of people consider to be the best ever, that's an absolute PR gift. After a miserable couple of seasons on and off track and the Rich Energy humiliation, it's exactly what the team needed.

That's all been thrown out the window now and all anyone is talking about is the brat in the other car who is a liability on and off the track. If he was any good then I might be able to understand it somewhat. Money talks I guess.

Slightly off topic from the incident itself but there is the old saying that there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Just think of how much attention Haas are going to be getting next year with the son of Michael Schumacher paired with someone who is considered the villain of F1 before he has even set foot in a car. Maybe I'm cynical but they will be getting much more attention next year than if they went with another pay driver.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:41 am

Anyway, I've explained my view as best I can. I'm afraid my view of feminism doesn't stretch as far as, "women should be able to hang out with billionaires in Dubai without fear of sexual harassment." If you do, then clearly we've reached a fundamental difference in our outlook on life.

Wow...

I'm really not sure what to say to that. I suppose fair props for making your position clear, but you're definitely right that we have a fundamental difference. Because I have to say, the idea that women should be able to go about their lives -- including around billionaires -- without fear of sexual harassment seems awfully basic to me.

You can all be shocked if you like, my conscience is clear. I work with and respect a lot of very high achieving women and I’d be disgusted if they received this kind of treatment. I was chatting to a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago. She’s cabin crew for a Middle Eastern airline. Having her backside pinched at work is a regular occurrence, she even caught a guy masturbating sat right there in his chair in economy class. HER I feel genuinely sorry for, she’s just there trying to do a job and ensure people’s safety and she gets treated like that. I tell her how awful it sounds, she laughs and rolls her eyes (in emoji speak anyway) and said, yeah that’s -anonymous airline- for you.

Now, I wonder where those kinds of attitudes towards women come from... It could be all men’s fault. People like Mazepin are just sexual predators who think they’re invincible because of there wealth. Or maybe it’s more nuanced. Maybe men like him have had negative attitudes towards women reinforced their whole lives by women who’s self respect seems to be based largely on the number of likes their photos get on Instagram.

I can’t stress enough that I don’t want this sub-genre of our world to exist. I haven’t posted all this with any sense of pride or wishful thinking. It’s vulgar, it’s dangerous and it completely reinforces the idea that all women, including my friend (‘s I know a lot of cabin crew, all with similar stories) are fair game. So no, when a woman enters that world, eyes wide open with a completely free and fair choice (something which is appallingly rare for women in the Middle East) I don’t have much empathy for her.

Anyway, don’t take my world for it. Go to Dubai for yourselves and check out all the yachts. If you see nobody on them but one lone billionaire, stood sobbing and lonely into his champagne, then you will have been proven right. Now that the danger of having your boobs groped is out there, they can’t fail to be disgusted and won’t go near those guys with a 20ft pole. I suspect not.

I don't think I need to explain why this topic has been locked. I am dealing with reports now.