Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules

Whose announcement race was the most impressive?

Hamilton - Australia 2007
13
35%
Vettel - Monza 2008
13
35%
Verstappen - Spain 2016
4
11%
Russell - Sakhir 2020
7
19%
 
Total votes: 37

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 4040
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

After Russell's impressive debut with Mercedes in Sakhir, the overwhelming consensus is that despite not winning the race, that Russell had pretty much the perfect job interview for the 2022 Mercedes seat. While it wasn't his first race in F1, it was the race that confirmed his potential as a potential WDC challenger of the future.

But he's not the only driver to have done this in recent years. How does Russell stack up against the drivers that confirmed Hamilton, Vettel and Verstappen as future greats of the sport?

Hamilton, Australia 2007
He didn't win the race, he didn't beat his team mate. But he was never meant to. He was a rookie lining up next to the man who had dethroned the great Michael Schumacher, the reigning WDC and (at that point in the season) team leader. But he went around him at turn 1, and led him until Alonso passed him in the pits. It was the first of 9 consecutive podiums and redeemed the faith Ron Dennis had placed in him, proving all the doubters - including Fernando - wrong.


Vettel, Monza 2008
With Hamilton putting himself out of contention for Q3 with a poor tyre decision in Q2, Vettel was able to take pole in what everyone assumed would be the upset for that weekend. Little did they know the next day he would run off into the distance, with McLaren number 2, Kovalainen unable to get near him. All this driving the car formerly known as Minardi.

Verstappen, Spain 2016
When Hamilton and Rosberg took each other out on lap 1, it left an open goal for Ferrari and Red Bull. With team veteran Ricciardo shadowing the lead Ferrari of Vettel, Red Bull went counteron strategy with Verstappen, who despite it being his first race with the car was able to make the high risk strategy pay off, becoming the youngest winner in the sport, and winning in his first race with the parent team.


Russell, Sakhir 2020
Given 4 days notice to step into the car of Hamilton, Russell had never even driven the car in the simulator. He was too big, he had to wear shoes a size too small just to be able to use the pedals. He was too tall for the optimal position in the car. After qualifying second he was on the dirty side of the grid, the side that Bottas had lost three places on at he previous weekend. He had no experience doing a racing start in this car, or at this end of the grid in a Formula 1 race.

But he led into lap 1 and was so far ahead he was cropped out of camera before getting into turn 5. He had to deal with safety cars as a lead driver for the first time in F1, in his first race in the team. He never made an error. But his team did. The pit error dropped him to 5th. A daring overtake on his team mate put him 4th, two more placed him on the heels of the race leader Perez. And then the puncture happened dropping him 4 places out of the points with only a handful of laps left to go. He recovered to 9th place, scoring his first WDC points, but everyone knowing that without the cruel twists of fate he had suffered, he would have just become F1's newest winner.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18470
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Definitely Russell's IMO but all of them have their merits.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8495
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Exediron »

Hamilton, without question for me. The others aren't even close.

Russell was impressive, but let's not forget he has almost two full seasons of F1 knowledge and has been working with the Mercedes team that whole time, driving their car in the simulator and hanging around their garage. He's driven the real thing in tests. As well, matching Bottas on a weekend when the Finn looked anything but his best isn't as impressive for me as immediately matching the best driver in F1 on your debut.

Vettel in Monza would be next for me, but circumstance played an inarguable part. I don't buy the argument that supposedly Toro Rosso was the best car on the day, but we've seen fluke winners in a car that wasn't the best before, and that's ultimately all Vettel's win was.

Verstappen in Spain would rank last for me, because I don't think there was anything special about it. He was out-qualified by 4 tenths by his teammate, and lucked into a win when both drivers ahead of him screwed up their strategy. At least Vettel put it on pole and led the whole race.

I actually thought when I first read it that you'd put Verstappen in Brazil 2016, which I would probably have ranked higher. His win in Spain was pure luck, combined with Kimi's passive racecraft to not make even one true attempt to overtake him down into turn one.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3420
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Invade »

One word: Hamilton.

j man
Posts: 3569
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by j man »

Hamilton on the basis that unlike the others, it was actually his F1 debut. I would say though that Hamilton's "announcement" race was actually at Silverstone in 2008; at least that was the race that for me demonstrated we had a Schumacher or Senna level talent on our hands. Everything he did up until that point could have been attributed to a merely very good driver who took advantage of an unsettled Alonso.

Another "announcement" race from the current grid of drivers that I feel was even more impressive than most of these was Perez at Sepang in 2012. He absolutely aced the wet conditions in a midfield car and should have passed Alonso to win the race if not for a small error in the closing laps. You could also pick out Monza that year, where his tyre management skills really came to the fore and with a few extra laps could have won that one as well.

schumilegend
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by schumilegend »

Let's not forget Hamilton was a historic rookie in the sense he debuted with the most preparation any rookie has gotten before and after

User avatar
F1Tyrant
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:27 pm
Location: UK

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by F1Tyrant »

Of the choices available, I think Hamilton takes it very narrowly from Vettel. Few people can put a midfield car on pole and drive away but Hamilton did everything he had to making Alonso uncomfortable and bringing the car home right behind him.
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:03 pm
Let's not forget Hamilton was a historic rookie in the sense he debuted with the most preparation any rookie has gotten before and after
Usual suspect turns up to take a cheap shot. Even when you are right, you can't help it.

I acknowledge your favourite driver as an all time great, why not return the gesture even if you feel he's overrated.

schumilegend
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by schumilegend »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:39 pm
Of the choices available, I think Hamilton takes it very narrowly from Vettel. Few people can put a midfield car on pole and drive away but Hamilton did everything he had to making Alonso uncomfortable and bringing the car home right behind him.
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:03 pm
Let's not forget Hamilton was a historic rookie in the sense he debuted with the most preparation any rookie has gotten before and after
Usual suspect turns up to take a cheap shot. Even when you are right, you can't help it.

I acknowledge your favourite driver as an all time great, why not return the gesture even if you feel he's overrated.
I understand this is a British forum with mostly Brits posting but let’s be realistic here .. You really think having 4 hrs to prepare for a car and race compares to months of testing the car? I think Lewis is an all time great driver for sure but no way his 7 titles commensurate for his talent

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8495
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Exediron »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:52 pm
I understand this is a British forum with mostly Brits posting but let’s be realistic here .. You really think having 4 hrs to prepare for a car and race compares to months of testing the car? I think Lewis is an all time great driver for sure but no way his 7 titles commensurate for his talent
a) I'm not British, and don't support drivers of any particular nationality anyway.

b) As I mentioned in my post, Russell has worked closely with Mercedes for two years, and has driven the car in the simulator and worked with all the engineers. It was definitely not a straight drop-in like when Hulk substituted for Perez at Silverstone (the first one).

c) You're right. Seven titles is not actually commensurate with the talent of any driver. It's a team achievement that people misread as a driver achievement.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
F1Tyrant
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:27 pm
Location: UK

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by F1Tyrant »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:52 pm
I understand this is a British forum with mostly Brits posting but let’s be realistic here .. You really think having 4 hrs to prepare for a car and race compares to months of testing the car? I think Lewis is an all time great driver for sure but no way his 7 titles commensurate for his talent
Russell's breakout race was excellent but I think Hamilton had him beaten. Firstly, his teammate was reigning champion and was behind him for much of the race. Secondly, it was his first time driving an F1 car in anger. Finally, it was a more challenging formula with less tyre management and constantly pushing throughout stints.

How many titles does any driver deserve? Of the drivers I've watched I'd say Alonso is worthy of at least five titles, Vettel maybe two titles, Button maybe two. Hamilton is worthy of at least four IMO.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3420
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Invade »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:31 am
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:52 pm
I understand this is a British forum with mostly Brits posting but let’s be realistic here .. You really think having 4 hrs to prepare for a car and race compares to months of testing the car? I think Lewis is an all time great driver for sure but no way his 7 titles commensurate for his talent
Russell's breakout race was excellent but I think Hamilton had him beaten. Firstly, his teammate was reigning champion and was behind him for much of the race. Secondly, it was his first time driving an F1 car in anger. Finally, it was a more challenging formula with less tyre management and constantly pushing throughout stints.

How many titles does any driver deserve? Of the drivers I've watched I'd say Alonso is worthy of at least five titles, Vettel maybe two titles, Button maybe two. Hamilton is worthy of at least four IMO.
Not sure about Alonso. On driving talent he's top echelon, but clearly more goes into the whole process than pure ability to demonstrate speed and racecraft.

I will be rooting for him when he returns next year. Two of my main wishes for F1 is that Alonso gets another shot at the WDC and that Ricciardo gets at least one shot in a Championship calibre car.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8495
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Exediron »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:31 am
Finally, it was a more challenging formula with less tyre management and constantly pushing throughout stints.
I don't think that makes it more challenging, to be honest. As a driver (both sim racing and karts, though of course not nearly at the level of F1) the easiest thing to do is push flat out. Managing tyres, keeping track of fuel and ERS, etc. is all much more challenging than just driving the best lap you can every lap.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

FrogInARaceCar
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:18 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by FrogInARaceCar »

Vettel. He took pole and beat the field, on pace, in a weak car.

Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 3095
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

j man wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:55 pm
Hamilton on the basis that unlike the others, it was actually his F1 debut. I would say though that Hamilton's "announcement" race was actually at Silverstone in 2008; at least that was the race that for me demonstrated we had a Schumacher or Senna level talent on our hands. Everything he did up until that point could have been attributed to a merely very good driver who took advantage of an unsettled Alonso.

Another "announcement" race from the current grid of drivers that I feel was even more impressive than most of these was Perez at Sepang in 2012. He absolutely aced the wet conditions in a midfield car and should have passed Alonso to win the race if not for a small error in the closing laps. You could also pick out Monza that year, where his tyre management skills really came to the fore and with a few extra laps could have won that one as well.
Very true.

Maldonado Spain 2012 anyone?
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

User avatar
F1Tyrant
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:27 pm
Location: UK

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by F1Tyrant »

Invade wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:05 am
Not sure about Alonso. On driving talent he's top echelon, but clearly more goes into the whole process than pure ability to demonstrate speed and racecraft.
It's hard to deny Alonso was incredible between 2009-2013, very late 90s Schumacher. The way I look at it is Hamilton's best season until 2017 was 2007 which was Alonso's worst year ever in F1 (2004 may have possibly been worse) where they tied on points and missed the title by one point.

However, Alonso was very arrogant and turned down his own "Mercedes-esque" move to Red Bull multiple times so his relative lack of silverware is his own fault.
Invade wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:05 am
Two of my main wishes for F1 is that Alonso gets another shot at the WDC and that Ricciardo gets at least one shot in a Championship calibre car.
It's interesting. I'm not sure Alonso will be the same driver after 2 years out but who knows! As for Ricciardo, I think he was destined for a number 2 driver or a nearly-man. He made his breakthrough in a frontrunner and left. Now he's switched to McLaren which has been a place driving careers go to die for over a decade.
Exediron wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:11 am
Managing tyres, keeping track of fuel and ERS, etc. is all much more challenging than just driving the best lap you can every lap.
I'll have to take your word for it! I've only ever done karting four times, beached a Formula Silverstone in the gravel on my second lap of the Stowe Circuit and driven a Formula Renault around Thruxton for 30 minutes (worth every penny). Driving flat out was bloody hard!

mikeyg123
Posts: 18470
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by mikeyg123 »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:03 pm
Let's not forget Hamilton was a historic rookie in the sense he debuted with the most preparation any rookie has gotten before and after
This is not true by any measure.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18470
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:31 am
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:52 pm
I understand this is a British forum with mostly Brits posting but let’s be realistic here .. You really think having 4 hrs to prepare for a car and race compares to months of testing the car? I think Lewis is an all time great driver for sure but no way his 7 titles commensurate for his talent
Russell's breakout race was excellent but I think Hamilton had him beaten. Firstly, his teammate was reigning champion and was behind him for much of the race. Secondly, it was his first time driving an F1 car in anger. Finally, it was a more challenging formula with less tyre management and constantly pushing throughout stints.

How many titles does any driver deserve? Of the drivers I've watched I'd say Alonso is worthy of at least five titles, Vettel maybe two titles, Button maybe two. Hamilton is worthy of at least four IMO.
I think it's completely fair to vote for Hamilton but I am going to counter some of your points slightly.

Yes it was Hamilton's first time racing in F1 but this was pre testing ban so he had done a huge amount of mileage and Alonso was new to the team as well so both had put in a similar distance in the car they would actually be racing. Russell meanwhile came in after Bottas had gained loads of experience in driving the car was fully accustomed to it's quirks.

I disagree it was a more challenging formula back then in this context. Provided you have the speed it's simpler to be able to push flat out for the whole race rather than have to manage the car. Look at how many changes the drivers make on the wheel every lap now. It's much harder to adapt to cars quickly for that reason.

User avatar
Jezza13
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Location: Far side of Koozebane

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Jezza13 »

I'll go Hamilton on this one but i'd like to throw in one that isn't on the list but I feel might just trump all of them.

Jacques Villeneuve, Australia, 1996.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,

Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Siao7
Posts: 8970
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Siao7 »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:16 am
j man wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:55 pm
Hamilton on the basis that unlike the others, it was actually his F1 debut. I would say though that Hamilton's "announcement" race was actually at Silverstone in 2008; at least that was the race that for me demonstrated we had a Schumacher or Senna level talent on our hands. Everything he did up until that point could have been attributed to a merely very good driver who took advantage of an unsettled Alonso.

Another "announcement" race from the current grid of drivers that I feel was even more impressive than most of these was Perez at Sepang in 2012. He absolutely aced the wet conditions in a midfield car and should have passed Alonso to win the race if not for a small error in the closing laps. You could also pick out Monza that year, where his tyre management skills really came to the fore and with a few extra laps could have won that one as well.
Very true.

Maldonado Spain 2012 anyone?
No, just no. He announced himself to plenty sidepods and walls prior to that...

schumilegend
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by schumilegend »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:31 am
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:52 pm
I understand this is a British forum with mostly Brits posting but let’s be realistic here .. You really think having 4 hrs to prepare for a car and race compares to months of testing the car? I think Lewis is an all time great driver for sure but no way his 7 titles commensurate for his talent
Russell's breakout race was excellent but I think Hamilton had him beaten. Firstly, his teammate was reigning champion and was behind him for much of the race. Secondly, it was his first time driving an F1 car in anger. Finally, it was a more challenging formula with less tyre management and constantly pushing throughout stints.

How many titles does any driver deserve? Of the drivers I've watched I'd say Alonso is worthy of at least five titles, Vettel maybe two titles, Button maybe two. Hamilton is worthy of at least four IMO.
I think Hamilton is superior to Alonso .. I have Hamilton as # 3 in the greatest drivers the sport has seen behind MS and Senna

pokerman
Posts: 36363
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by pokerman »

schumilegend wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:16 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:31 am
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:52 pm
I understand this is a British forum with mostly Brits posting but let’s be realistic here .. You really think having 4 hrs to prepare for a car and race compares to months of testing the car? I think Lewis is an all time great driver for sure but no way his 7 titles commensurate for his talent
Russell's breakout race was excellent but I think Hamilton had him beaten. Firstly, his teammate was reigning champion and was behind him for much of the race. Secondly, it was his first time driving an F1 car in anger. Finally, it was a more challenging formula with less tyre management and constantly pushing throughout stints.

How many titles does any driver deserve? Of the drivers I've watched I'd say Alonso is worthy of at least five titles, Vettel maybe two titles, Button maybe two. Hamilton is worthy of at least four IMO.
I think Hamilton is superior to Alonso .. I have Hamilton as # 3 in the greatest drivers the sport has seen behind MS and Senna
That being the case why do you keep criticising him?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Banana Man
Posts: 2585
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Banana Man »

In order:

1. Vettel - He was best in qualy and the race, in challenging wet conditions, without the best car or even one of the top three that season.

2. Lewis - Pretty impressive debut but behind Vettel because he was in a McLaren on a dry track.

3. Russel - Did everything right but was already well up to speed with the Merc from testing and had by far the best car, in dry conditions, with two of his main challengers out on lap 1.

4. Max - Yes it was good but he benefitted massively from the Merc collision and the better strategy. On actual pace he was probably just holding off Kimi for 5th place, all things being equal.
I remember when this website was all fields.

Rockie
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Rockie »

1 Vettel the weekend was just sublime and was done on pure pace, mastery of the conditions.

2 Hamilton ignoring the spygate saga looked a good drive considering they had info on the fuel loads of Ferrari and their strategy so could react accordingly.

3 Verstappen took advantage of the luck that came his way as was always going to win a better car.

4 Russell never had a doubt about him in the Mercedes and he proved me right.

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by DOLOMITE »

Nice thread. I saw all these and for me it's between Hamilton and Russel. Hamilton had by far the better teammate to go up against, but I think Russell had to deal with a lot more in the race. And that pass on Bottas was absolutely stunning.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8495
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Exediron »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 pm
Nice thread. I saw all these and for me it's between Hamilton and Russel. Hamilton had by far the better teammate to go up against, but I think Russell had to deal with a lot more in the race. And that pass on Bottas was absolutely stunning.
How was it different from what Sainz did in a weaker car?
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18470
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:10 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 pm
Nice thread. I saw all these and for me it's between Hamilton and Russel. Hamilton had by far the better teammate to go up against, but I think Russell had to deal with a lot more in the race. And that pass on Bottas was absolutely stunning.
How was it different from what Sainz did in a weaker car?
The stakes are higher for Russell. The consequences of crashing into Bottas are far worse. It takes that much more bravery. It was also before Bottas' tyres were totally shot.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18470
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:10 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 pm
Nice thread. I saw all these and for me it's between Hamilton and Russel. Hamilton had by far the better teammate to go up against, but I think Russell had to deal with a lot more in the race. And that pass on Bottas was absolutely stunning.
How was it different from what Sainz did in a weaker car?
The stakes are higher for Russell. The consequences of crashing into Bottas are far worse. It takes that much more bravery. It was also before Bottas' tyres were totally shot.

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by DOLOMITE »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:43 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:10 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 pm
Nice thread. I saw all these and for me it's between Hamilton and Russel. Hamilton had by far the better teammate to go up against, but I think Russell had to deal with a lot more in the race. And that pass on Bottas was absolutely stunning.
How was it different from what Sainz did in a weaker car?
The stakes are higher for Russell. The consequences of crashing into Bottas are far worse. It takes that much more bravery. It was also before Bottas' tyres were totally shot.
Yep, this. You could see it as he had nothing to lose but I think the opposite.

He had already done more than enough with his drive at that stage to make his point and leave a massive impression. If he had taken the approach of diligently following his teammate home no one would have thought less of him, in fact he would have probably added "team player" to his list of merits. But if Russell had stuffed it up and potentially taken Bottas out in the process he would have undone all that hard work and gone hero to zero. So imo there was actually quite a lot of stake so to go for and make the pass in such a committed way was I think hugely impressive.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

JN23
Posts: 2885
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:43 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:10 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 pm
Nice thread. I saw all these and for me it's between Hamilton and Russel. Hamilton had by far the better teammate to go up against, but I think Russell had to deal with a lot more in the race. And that pass on Bottas was absolutely stunning.
How was it different from what Sainz did in a weaker car?
The stakes are higher for Russell. The consequences of crashing into Bottas are far worse. It takes that much more bravery. It was also before Bottas' tyres were totally shot.
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 4040
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

The reason for selecting Spain 2016 rather than Brazil 2016 for Max is that I felt that Verstappen had already established himself by this point - it's more similar to Hamilton's Fuji drive.

These 4 drives I wanted to compaire were the first time that the driver had an opportunity to fight at the front in F1 on equal terms and all also demonstrated they had talent. They are all impressive outings, but all have very different ingredients, and that's why there is a thread.

I feel Max's drive in Spain is more impressive than people are giving credit for. Remember, he was still very young at that point. He was under pressure the whole race and while Ricciardo was probably faster that weekend, so was Alonso in Hamilton's first weekend. There is also a case to suggest Bottas was faster than Russell in raw pace at Sakhir. However all three drivers demonstrated their teeth, tenacity and ability to deal with pressure.

A.J.
Posts: 429
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by A.J. »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:20 am
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.
2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.

JN23
Posts: 2885
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by JN23 »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:20 am
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.
2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.
What do you mean by an additional heat cycle? The tyres weren’t put back in warmers or anything in the 27 seconds.

Siao7
Posts: 8970
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:20 am
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.
2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.
What do you mean by an additional heat cycle? The tyres weren’t put back in warmers or anything in the 27 seconds.
Exactly that (my guess). They probably cooled down and then they'd have to be brought up to temperature again.

JN23
Posts: 2885
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by JN23 »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:20 am
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.
2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.
What do you mean by an additional heat cycle? The tyres weren’t put back in warmers or anything in the 27 seconds.
Exactly that (my guess). They probably cooled down and then they'd have to be brought up to temperature again.
Ah so the issue might have been that they didn’t get through an additional heat cycle? Bottas pit stop was 27 seconds from memory so that probably wasn’t enough time for them to be bought up to temperature after taking them off and before putting them back on.

A.J.
Posts: 429
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by A.J. »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:20 am
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.
2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.
What do you mean by an additional heat cycle? The tyres weren’t put back in warmers or anything in the 27 seconds.
I mean exactly that they went through an extra heat cycle, in the sense that they cooled down in the 25-30 seconds he was stopped for, and then had to be brought back up to temperature again by Bottas. If they were (hypothetically) put in warmers, they wouldn't go through the cycle of cooling down and needing to be heated up again.

As we know, this cycle has an impact on the chemical characteristics of the tyre compound itself, making it less grippy - by how much is something I can't tell, but it definitely would have had an impact. Though the main reason in my opinion is still that Bottas on raceday is a terrible driver anyway.

JN23
Posts: 2885
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by JN23 »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:24 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:20 am
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.
2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.
What do you mean by an additional heat cycle? The tyres weren’t put back in warmers or anything in the 27 seconds.
I mean exactly that they went through an extra heat cycle, in the sense that they cooled down in the 25-30 seconds he was stopped for, and then had to be brought back up to temperature again by Bottas. If they were (hypothetically) put in warmers, they wouldn't go through the cycle of cooling down and needing to be heated up again.

As we know, this cycle has an impact on the chemical characteristics of the tyre compound itself, making it less grippy - by how much is something I can't tell, but it definitely would have had an impact. Though the main reason in my opinion is still that Bottas on raceday is a terrible driver anyway.
Thank you, I understand now.

A.J.
Posts: 429
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by A.J. »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:36 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:20 am
Possibly the wrong thread but how were Bottas’ tyres in such bad condition? They were younger than Perez, Stroll and Ocon’s I think.
2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.
What do you mean by an additional heat cycle? The tyres weren’t put back in warmers or anything in the 27 seconds.
Exactly that (my guess). They probably cooled down and then they'd have to be brought up to temperature again.
Ah so the issue might have been that they didn’t get through an additional heat cycle? Bottas pit stop was 27 seconds from memory so that probably wasn’t enough time for them to be bought up to temperature after taking them off and before putting them back on.
No, that's not the issue - the tyres would have come back to temperature within a lap or two once they started racing again (probably sooner thanks to DAS). The problem was that the additional heat cycle (hot-cool-hot) changes the compound characteristics in a negative way.

Siao7
Posts: 8970
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:26 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:36 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm


2 reasons:

1. They went through an additional heat cycle during the pits, and the Pirellis are notoriously fickle.
2. Well, Bottas.
What do you mean by an additional heat cycle? The tyres weren’t put back in warmers or anything in the 27 seconds.
Exactly that (my guess). They probably cooled down and then they'd have to be brought up to temperature again.
Ah so the issue might have been that they didn’t get through an additional heat cycle? Bottas pit stop was 27 seconds from memory so that probably wasn’t enough time for them to be bought up to temperature after taking them off and before putting them back on.
No, that's not the issue - the tyres would have come back to temperature within a lap or two once they started racing again (probably sooner thanks to DAS). The problem was that the additional heat cycle (hot-cool-hot) changes the compound characteristics in a negative way.
Thank you, I had part of it right then!

KingVoid
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by KingVoid »

Out of that list, the most impressive drive is clearly Monza 2008, despite the fact that Vettel is not as good as Hamilton or Verstappen (Russell is too early to call).

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8495
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Whose 'announcement' race was the most impressive.

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:43 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:10 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 pm
Nice thread. I saw all these and for me it's between Hamilton and Russel. Hamilton had by far the better teammate to go up against, but I think Russell had to deal with a lot more in the race. And that pass on Bottas was absolutely stunning.
How was it different from what Sainz did in a weaker car?
The stakes are higher for Russell. The consequences of crashing into Bottas are far worse. It takes that much more bravery. It was also before Bottas' tyres were totally shot.
I can see that argument, to a certain extent, but I still think it doesn't make a lot of sense to gush over an overtake that one driver makes in the best car when another driver is able to do the same thing in a much weaker car not too long after (7 laps later).
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

Post Reply