Grosjean's Horrific Crash (Bahrain 2020) [Merged]

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TheGiantHogweed
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Grosjean's Horrific Crash (Bahrain 2020) [Merged]

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

This thread can get renamed to something more appropriate if needed, but I feel this will be discussed for a long long time, well past the next two races.

I'm thinking any updates could get posted and shared here. The thread can indeed be removed it is is thought to be inappropriate.

We don't seem to have heard that much news yet so lets hope we get an update soon.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Mort Canard »

The FIA may have to reconsider the use of unprotected Armco barrier at race tracks. Both with the death of Francois Cervert and today it was a hazard to the driver. There have also been quite a number of similar incidents in both pro and club racing where it allowed a race car to become wedged between the rails.

Certainly the break up of the car into two parts is due to the front half of the car punching through the Armco and the back half of the car still having enough energy to tear itself away. That is undoubtedly what caused the fire when the fuel cell ruptured.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Best of luck to Romain. I hope his injuries aren't too severe, and we see him back at a race track soon.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

If Grosjean races just in the final race this year, I would find that amazing. That incident barely looked survivable. From the first pictures we saw (which they rightly didn't instantly show), just seeing the back of the car with the cockpit missing and a heap of flames in a broken barrier make me think the outcome was the worst possible. It sounds like his injuries are minor though, but that is amazing given how awful it looked.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by pokerman »

Seeing him immersed in the flames, that's an image I'll never forget.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:00 pm
If Grosjean races just in the final race this year, I would find that amazing. That incident barely looked survivable. From the first pictures we saw (which they rightly didn't instantly show), just seeing the back of the car with the cockpit missing and a heap of flames in a broken barrier make me think the outcome was the worst possible. It sounds like his injuries are minor though, but that is amazing given how awful it looked.
I'd be so pleased to see him in Abu Dhabi.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Mort Canard »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:35 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:00 pm
If Grosjean races just in the final race this year, I would find that amazing. That incident barely looked survivable. From the first pictures we saw (which they rightly didn't instantly show), just seeing the back of the car with the cockpit missing and a heap of flames in a broken barrier make me think the outcome was the worst possible. It sounds like his injuries are minor though, but that is amazing given how awful it looked.
I'd be so pleased to see him in Abu Dhabi.
Whether he races or not!!! :nod:
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:35 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:00 pm
If Grosjean races just in the final race this year, I would find that amazing. That incident barely looked survivable. From the first pictures we saw (which they rightly didn't instantly show), just seeing the back of the car with the cockpit missing and a heap of flames in a broken barrier make me think the outcome was the worst possible. It sounds like his injuries are minor though, but that is amazing given how awful it looked.
I'd be so pleased to see him in Abu Dhabi.
It's only 2 weeks away, if he has broken ribs they don't heal that quick.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by JN23 »

Update from Haas: https://twitter.com/thomasmaheronf1/sta ... 78625?s=21

Staying in hospital overnight for treatment for burns but no fractures.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Invade »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:41 pm
Update from Haas: https://twitter.com/thomasmaheronf1/sta ... 78625?s=21

Staying in hospital overnight for treatment for burns but no fractures.
Kinda funny to put that into context of Drew Brees (Saints quarterback in NFL) recently getting poleaxed and suffering 11+ rib fractures and a collapsed lung. Two 'high impact accidents' with two quite different outcomes. Maybe Grosjean could even return for the next race?!

Absolute scenes earlier tonight, and Grosjean is, in some ways, a very lucky chap. Hopefully we'll see him back soon.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by JN23 »


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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Invade »

So no fractures, but LOOK AT THOSE HANDS.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Badgeronimous »

The fact the car submarines under the barrier. He is an incredibly lucky guy, and the halo save his life there. Testiment to how strong that structure is, it survived an impact that tore a car in half.

It looked like a fairly innocuous crash - seen cars glance barriers plenty of times - up until the moment of impact.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by DFWdude »

Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:40 pm
The FIA may have to reconsider the use of unprotected Armco barrier at race tracks. Both with the death of Francois Cervert and today it was a hazard to the driver. There have also been quite a number of similar incidents in both pro and club racing where it allowed a race car to become wedged between the rails.

Certainly the break up of the car into two parts is due to the front half of the car punching through the Armco and the back half of the car still having enough energy to tear itself away. That is undoubtedly what caused the fire when the fuel cell ruptured.
Agreed 100%. Do away with the Armco. But if that is not practical, at least require that Armco only be used when parallel to the track contour, and that access points be defined BEHIND the parallel contour, not protruding into and toward the track. This would decrease the impact angle.

Too bad this website doesn't allow me to directly upload this illustration. Here is a link instead...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbworl ... 409a86.jpg

EDIT: In viewing a rerun of this race, I see that there are several access points around the track, and at least half of them are versions of the design I recommend in the illustration. Ths barrier in question is an exception. BUT it is a failure of imagination to think that it could not come into play.
Last edited by DFWdude on Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:22 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by BMWSauber84 »

It looks like it's going to be a sad end to his Formula One career. It could have been a heck of a lot sadder though and thank goodness it wasn't.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by wolfticket »

The question of Armco is interesting one. Without the Halo he's dead irrespective, and the fire/destruction was heightened by it. Armco is terrible from that point of view.

However ultimately the devastation and penetration caused to the barrier my also have been what ultimately saved him from being killed or seriously injured by the deceleration. Hitting a concrete wall like they replaced it with might be less spectacular but more deadly.

While obviously the sort of accident today on a straight is rare, a car spearing across the track into the wall at an acute angle is always possible at any point on the circuit.

I think this accident might (and probably should) result in the gradual adoption of barriers along the lines of the SAFER barriers they use in oval racing on parts of tracks away from corners where Tecpro isn't appropriate or practical. They absorb energy from near head on impacts but also stay intact and allow the car to slide along them.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Horrific crash. Pictures reminded me of the 70s/80s. The safety standards of modern cars are fantastic!

I am not impressed by the rescue efforts, though. It took much too long to fight the fire. If Grosjean had been unconcious or unable to climb out of the car, he would have been dead.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Johnson »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:00 pm
If Grosjean races just in the final race this year, I would find that amazing. That incident barely looked survivable. From the first pictures we saw (which they rightly didn't instantly show), just seeing the back of the car with the cockpit missing and a heap of flames in a broken barrier make me think the outcome was the worst possible. It sounds like his injuries are minor though, but that is amazing given how awful it looked.
They didn’t show it until he was confirmed out the car and ok though.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by DOLOMITE »

Sickening. Watching it back I think he was in the flames for approaching 30 seconds. If he'd been knocked unconscious at the impact I hate to think....
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Banana Man »

Just a word on halo, which everyone has rightly pointed out saved his life today. It is worth pointing out that had the barriers around him bent slightly differently, the halo COULD have hindered his egress. I’m not advocating against the halo, far from it; I am however a bit more cautious of the ‘halo is a no brainier, anyone who criticised it before was stupid’ line of thinking.

Quite simply, there are no 100% safe solutions to cars moving around t 200mph in close proximity. If I was going so say anything, the track shouldn’t have been designed with a barrier coming out at such an acute angle to the racing line on a straight.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Mort Canard »

Drivers who were likely saved by the FIA mandated halo since it's introduction:

F2 - Tadasuke Makino – 2018 - Circuit de Catalunya

F1 – Charles Leclerc – 2018 - Spa-Francorchamps

F2 – Sean Galeal – 2019 Spa-Francorchamps (same incident that killed Anthoine Hubert)

F3 - Alex Peroni - 2019 Monza

F1 – Romain Grosjean – 2020 Bahrain GP

...and that's in just under three years since it's introduction.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Mort Canard »

I have to wonder about the fire marshal hosing down the pavement before turning the hose on Grosjean's car.

It occurs to me that Romain was on the same side of the barrier that the fire marshal was on. He may not have wanted to turn the force of the hose on Romain as he was getting out of the cockpit.

The second thing is that there is about a 600 Volt DC battery in the bottom of that car. I am sure that the FIA has procedures for dousing flames in the vicinity of those batteries. It may not look right but I am betting that there was a reason for doing it that way.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by wolfticket »

Mort Canard wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:52 am
I have to wonder about the fire marshal hosing down the pavement before turning the hose on Grosjean's car.

It occurs to me that Romain was on the same side of the barrier that the fire marshal was on. He may not have wanted to turn the force of the hose on Romain as he was getting out of the cockpit.

The second thing is that there is about a 600 Volt DC battery in the bottom of that car. I am sure that the FIA has procedures for dousing flames in the vicinity of those batteries. It may not look right but I am betting that there was a reason for doing it that way.
I figure from the side they were on at ground level it may well be the case that all you could see was the rear half of the car and a huge fireball. Grosjean was on that side of the barrier but the underside of the safety cell was facing the marshal along with a wall of fire that seemed to be burning most ferociously on the side facing them where car had been ripped in half and most of the fuel had been deposited.

It may not even have been clear exactly where the front half of the car was, let alone in where the driver was. Additionally the heat may have made it impossible to attempt to fight from that angle with a handheld extinguisher (even for some keyboard heroes on twitter...).

Just as an afterthought, you mentioned how they appeared to be hosing down the pavement. Maybe there was a substantial quantity of unburned fuel around, and preventing the fire from spreading to that by spraying in down the surface was perhaps a useful thing to do in the situation? And also that approaching a fire across unburnt fuel may be a terrible plan...

...Actually having said all that, even if it turn out they actually just froze a bit I don't think it's at all fair to single them out for criticism. Who could possibly know how they'd react when confronted with such a situation when you only have a matter of seconds to take in what is happening?
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Covalent »

Regarding the barriers themselves, if it had been a tyre wall and if the car had exploded like it did, Grosjean would probably not have been able to exit the car as it would have been under the tyres (which might also have caught on fire, making matters even worse). Of course it's less likely to burst open the fuel tank than the armco. In that sense the concrete barrier might actually have been the safest in that spot, nothing to be submerged in, but on the other hand it would more likely result in unconsciousness.
Thank god he stayed conscious and that he was able to climb out by himself, without either one he wouldn't be alive IMO.

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Grosjean - Battery fire?

Post by greatestF1mindever »

Not seeing this much in the news, but the driver sits on a huge battery pack. Everyone is suggesting that it is the fuel that kept the inferno going, but what about that battery pack? Could it have added fuel to the fire? Or could it have ruptured and caused the start of a chemical fire (well petrol is a chemical fire, but you know what I mean)? I just wondering if this could have been a possibility.

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Re: Grosjean - Battery fire?

Post by Badgeronimous »

greatestF1mindever wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:50 am
Not seeing this much in the news, but the driver sits on a huge battery pack. Everyone is suggesting that it is the fuel that kept the inferno going, but what about that battery pack? Could it have added fuel to the fire? Or could it have ruptured and caused the start of a chemical fire (well petrol is a chemical fire, but you know what I mean)? I just wondering if this could have been a possibility.
Chemical reaction from a battery wouldn't have been a fire ball like that. Lithium also burns with a deep red flame.

Almost certainly a petrol fire.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Badgeronimous »

Simple solution, uncovered barriers should be X amount of distance from the track - barriers that are closer must have a rubber conveyor style covering. If Grosjean had even another 20m or so, he recovers that some more, and slows another 40mph.

Proper covering on that barrier and that accident cannot happen - but it was a freak accident. It's impossible to cover every eventuality in motorsport.

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Re: Grosjean - Battery fire?

Post by Siao7 »

I thought that nothing can penetrate the bladders they use as fuel tanks, this was very disturbing to see. Thank god Romain is ok, albeit a bit crispy.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Mort Canard wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:22 am
Drivers who were likely saved by the FIA mandated halo since it's introduction:

F2 - Tadasuke Makino – 2018 - Circuit de Catalunya

F1 – Charles Leclerc – 2018 - Spa-Francorchamps

F2 – Sean Galeal – 2019 Spa-Francorchamps (same incident that killed Anthoine Hubert)

F3 - Alex Peroni - 2019 Monza

F1 – Romain Grosjean – 2020 Bahrain GP

...and that's in just under three years since it's introduction.
If this is true, the halo saved us from the deadliest period in motor racing since the early 1970s.

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Re: Grosjean - Battery fire?

Post by Herb »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:21 am
I thought that nothing can penetrate the bladders they use as fuel tanks, this was very disturbing to see. Thank god Romain is ok, albeit a bit crispy.
The suspicion is this wasn't the fuel tank - Ross Braun thinks if it had been, the fireball would have been much bigger.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Mort Canard wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:52 am
I have to wonder about the fire marshal hosing down the pavement before turning the hose on Grosjean's car.

It occurs to me that Romain was on the same side of the barrier that the fire marshal was on. He may not have wanted to turn the force of the hose on Romain as he was getting out of the cockpit.

The second thing is that there is about a 600 Volt DC battery in the bottom of that car. I am sure that the FIA has procedures for dousing flames in the vicinity of those batteries. It may not look right but I am betting that there was a reason for doing it that way.
Yea I have to agree they had to treat it with caution as the cause of the fire was unknown and Grosjean was still in it. With certain electrical fires, dry powder or CO2 should be used as any other could be a make it far worse. Until more is heard, I don't think anyone should be implying they did a poor job. Though some should have been wearing more protective gear.


These are the sort of incidents that seem so unlikely that you would think they could never happen. They happen and they take action and will change the barrier and side road layout.

This thing that I keep bringing up about the teams leaning through the gap in the fence as the drivers almost drive directly under them (sometimes in a fight) should be changed before something happens. Leaning out a little is fine, but seen plenty holding on by one hand and foot. The amount of times teams that don't get podiums as often have one or two members get a bit over excited and nearly lose grip is quite common now. If someone did, it would quite possibly result in dragging more than one and falling onto the track. This is another unlikely thing to happen, but more likely than a similar incident with the same outcome as what happened with Grosjean.

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Re: Grosjean - Battery fire?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Mods, could this thread and the other thread named "Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)" be merged? They are talking about the same incident.

The name of the one I created can get changed to something more appropriate if needed. But I don't think we need two as well as the race thread.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Banana Man »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:59 am
Mort Canard wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:22 am
Drivers who were likely saved by the FIA mandated halo since it's introduction:

F2 - Tadasuke Makino – 2018 - Circuit de Catalunya

F1 – Charles Leclerc – 2018 - Spa-Francorchamps

F2 – Sean Galeal – 2019 Spa-Francorchamps (same incident that killed Anthoine Hubert)

F3 - Alex Peroni - 2019 Monza

F1 – Romain Grosjean – 2020 Bahrain GP

...and that's in just under three years since it's introduction.
If this is true, the halo saved us from the deadliest period in motor racing since the early 1970s.
I think a couple of those are slightly dubious. The halo does stick upwards and forwards a long way in front of the drivers head, so it’s far more likely to take some sort of impact. I remember Brundle doing a feature on safety and saying the top of the drivers head must be below a straight line from the top of the airbox to the top of the nose cone, by the front suspension. That design is what saved the likes of Diniz at Nurburgring, Webber in Valencia and a few others.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by inky38 »

All hail the Halo

And of course I'm sure that the HANS device played a significant role in the massive deceleration

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Banana Man wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:49 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:59 am
Mort Canard wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:22 am
Drivers who were likely saved by the FIA mandated halo since it's introduction:

F2 - Tadasuke Makino – 2018 - Circuit de Catalunya

F1 – Charles Leclerc – 2018 - Spa-Francorchamps

F2 – Sean Galeal – 2019 Spa-Francorchamps (same incident that killed Anthoine Hubert)

F3 - Alex Peroni - 2019 Monza

F1 – Romain Grosjean – 2020 Bahrain GP

...and that's in just under three years since it's introduction.
If this is true, the halo saved us from the deadliest period in motor racing since the early 1970s.
I think a couple of those are slightly dubious. The halo does stick upwards and forwards a long way in front of the drivers head, so it’s far more likely to take some sort of impact. I remember Brundle doing a feature on safety and saying the top of the drivers head must be below a straight line from the top of the airbox to the top of the nose cone, by the front suspension. That design is what saved the likes of Diniz at Nurburgring, Webber in Valencia and a few others.
Yes, the cockpit has been designed to guide things away from the driver before the halo. It wasn't just pure luck the things that are hitting the halo now weren't hitting the halo before it. Also worth noting that just because a driver gets hit on the head it doesn't mean it's fatal. Remember Martin Brundle's head moving like speed bag after being hit by Verstappen's rear wheel in Brazil 94?

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/30/pie ... rand-prix/

I think this is sensible. It would be too rushed even if Grosjena was ok to get him ready this quick. I just hope he makes it to the final race.

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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by UnlikeUday »

When he realised he had to escape from the cockpit, he had to even detach the HANS which I don't know if its easy to do so in quick response. But thank God, everything played to Grosjean's hands (keeping the crash aside)!
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by Harpo »

To the encyclopedists : When was the last time a F1 car took fire because of a crash or a collision (so not the Benetton pit stop) ? I can't remember.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:43 am
https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/30/pie ... rand-prix/

I think this is sensible. It would be too rushed even if Grosjena was ok to get him ready this quick. I just hope he makes it to the final race.
Fittipaldi's not that good, he took advantage of a series in decline that was still receiving top level super license points.
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Re: Gorsjean's Horriffic Crash (Bahrain 2020)

Post by pokerman »

Harpo wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:00 pm
To the encyclopedists : When was the last time a F1 car took fire because of a crash or a collision (so not the Benetton pit stop) ? I can't remember.
Gerhard Berger's Ferrari in Italy late 90's perhaps, Berger received some nasty burns.
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