2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

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Asphalt_World
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Unless I am mistaken, the medics in the medical car have open-faced helmets. Had Romain not been able to get himself out, they would have been completely unable to assist until the fire was fully out. Now, I'm not saying the medics should simply walk straight into a raging fire, but I would think full-faced helmets and balaclavas should be a must.
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Schumacher forever#1
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

You'd wonder what this crash might mean for the future of the Monaco GP, and the introduction of many street circuits of recent years.
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:32 pm
You'd wonder what this crash might mean for the future of the Monaco GP, and the introduction of many street circuits of recent years.
I think the biggest thing to come from it could well be no more barriers like the ones that Romain went through today. Halo or not, for a car to split through a barrier like that is just wrong.
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BMWSauber84
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Daniel Ricciardo sounded very angry about the amount of replays shown of the crash.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:39 pm
Daniel Ricciardo sounded very angry about the amount of replays shown of the crash.
Not sure about on-screen at the circuit, but there were no replays of the crash on TV until well after Romain was out and had been reported as being fundamentally fine.
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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:43 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:33 pm
As a Hamilton fan it's manna from heaven if Red Bull want to retain an underperforming driver.
To be fair, we can't talk given Valterri was retained after his poor season in 2018. Hamilton is kinda protected at Mercedes.
To make comparison with Bottas then I think perhaps you don't realise how bad Albon has been, yesterday he was outqualified by 6 tenths, today on pure pace he would have finished 5th.
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Well, people say Stroll's engineer needs a better driver, but I think Stroll needs a beter or at least nicer engineer. At least he asks if he's ok, but the fact that Stroll has made it clear he's hanging upside down. Fair enough also on asking Strol to switch off, but he also says he can get out if he can. But then asks "were you hit Lance? Were you hit from behind?"

Is the way it happened really the think an engineer should be asking when Stroll is struggling to get out the car when hanging there?

I really think Stroll would feel more motivated if he had a happy sounding engineer with far more enthusiasm. Stroll had to really persuade his engineer to sound more excited when he got pole. He must be pretty depressing to hear some of the time.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:54 pm
Well, people say Stroll's engineer needs a better driver, but I think Stroll needs a beter or at least nicer engineer. At least he asks if he's ok, but the fact that Stroll has made it clear he's hanging upside down. Fair enough also on asking Strol to switch off, but he also says he can get out if he can. But then asks "were you hit Lance? Were you hit from behind?"

Is the way it happened really the think an engineer should be asking when Stroll is struggling to get out the car when hanging there?

I really think Stroll would feel more motivated if he had a happy sounding engineer with far more enthusiasm. Stroll had to really persuade his engineer to sound more excited when he got pole. He must be pretty depressing to hear some of the time.
His engineer does sound very dour and in Portugal seemed to get quite passive aggressive.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Mercedes apparently only changed three tyres at one of Bottas' stops. Curious.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:57 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:54 pm
Well, people say Stroll's engineer needs a better driver, but I think Stroll needs a beter or at least nicer engineer. At least he asks if he's ok, but the fact that Stroll has made it clear he's hanging upside down. Fair enough also on asking Strol to switch off, but he also says he can get out if he can. But then asks "were you hit Lance? Were you hit from behind?"

Is the way it happened really the think an engineer should be asking when Stroll is struggling to get out the car when hanging there?

I really think Stroll would feel more motivated if he had a happy sounding engineer with far more enthusiasm. Stroll had to really persuade his engineer to sound more excited when he got pole. He must be pretty depressing to hear some of the time.
His engineer does sound very dour and in Portugal seemed to get quite passive aggressive.

Yep. Couldn't agree more. He sounds dour, and sour, every waking hour of his time as Stroll's race engineer. At this point we have to question his desire. Even when Stroll was on fire all he could muster was a whimper, and at the worst of times all Stroll gets is an earful of ire, either that or a suddenly punctured tyre. Today Stroll was upside down and all he was met with was a frown. His engineer's renown as a miserable clown is now beyond dispute.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:59 pm
Mercedes apparently only changed three tyres at one of Bottas' stops. Curious.
How did they manage that? Would that be penalty worthy?

Edit: no, I don’t think it is. You can mix sets after qualifying providing they’re the same compound. Someone on Reddit saying the three tyres that were put on were actually from the set he started the race on, one of which punctured.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:59 pm
Mercedes apparently only changed three tyres at one of Bottas' stops. Curious.
I questioned at the time why Bottas pitted for the 4th time. This was when he'd barely done even 10 laps on them. If they were the set with one far older than the rest (21 laps older if I'm talking about the correct stint).

If that is the case, maybe some of Bottas's pace loss can be forgiven. And maybe his lack of pace in the final stint was also related to that slow puncture as it was confirmed he had one then too. He does seem a bit of a bad luck magnet at the moment.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

Invade wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:03 pm
He sounds dour, and sour, every waking hour of his time as Stroll's race engineer.
Unfortunately, due to the stench of nepotism, if Lawrence was to intervene it wouldn't be recieved well. The PR mess would be worth the trouble though. Although I'd rather it continue as my uncle bet Stroll to beat Vettel and for once I feel like I have the better odds.
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

.

Is it too early to ask who will replace Grosjean at the next GP ?

.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:06 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:59 pm
Mercedes apparently only changed three tyres at one of Bottas' stops. Curious.
How did they manage that? Would that be penalty worthy?

Edit: no, I don’t think it is. You can mix sets after qualifying providing they’re the same compound. Someone on Reddit saying the three tyres that were put on were actually from the set he started the race on, one of which punctured.

Yea that confused me. I took it as leaving one tyre on and not touching it which would both be dumb thinking by me and shocking from the team. But even so, if they discovered a puncture instantly at the start and he had to pit and lose 4th position, how can he have done so many laps on this if it was that much of a concern? Anyway, it possibly explains why he wasn't catching ricciardo. He did seem to lack a bit of pace and had another bad start though, but certainly lost a likely podium out of his control.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:18 pm
.

Is it too early to ask who will replace Grosjean at the next GP ?

.
Kubica?
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/29/kvy ... ed-stroll/

The more I watch this incident, the more I do think Kvyat was to blame. He sort of did an incredibly slow divebomb and didn't seem at all committed, so I can understand why Kvyat holds most of the blame.

However, as palmer mentined after the chinese grand prix last year in an incident with Norris, the stewards seem to give Kyvay far harsher penalties than they should, possibly based on his past? 10 seconds and 2 penalty points is ridiculous for this. I think it was a racing incident but wouldn't argue if Kvyat got 5 seconds and just that.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:01 pm
https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/29/kvy ... ed-stroll/

The more I watch this incident, the more I do think Kvyat was to blame. He sort of did an incredibly slow divebomb and didn't seem at all committed, so I can understand why Kvyat holds most of the blame.

However, as palmer mentined after the chinese grand prix last year in an incident with Norris, the stewards seem to give Kyvay far harsher penalties than they should, possibly based on his past? 10 seconds and 2 penalty points is ridiculous for this. I think it was a racing incident but wouldn't argue if Kvyat got 5 seconds and just that.
How can it be a divebomb? He was alongside Stroll on the preceding straight as well. Stroll turned in, I imagine expecting Kvyat to... Evaporate? He did the same thing to Norris in Portugal as well.

Kvyat has never been crash happy. The moniker "torpedo" is so unwarranted and comes from two incidents, one of which he did nothing wrong. Just Vettel moaning and getting animated like he does when the red carpet isn't rolled out for him. See his reaction to Leclerc daring to overtake him today for another example of that.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:08 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:01 pm
https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/29/kvy ... ed-stroll/

The more I watch this incident, the more I do think Kvyat was to blame. He sort of did an incredibly slow divebomb and didn't seem at all committed, so I can understand why Kvyat holds most of the blame.

However, as palmer mentined after the chinese grand prix last year in an incident with Norris, the stewards seem to give Kyvay far harsher penalties than they should, possibly based on his past? 10 seconds and 2 penalty points is ridiculous for this. I think it was a racing incident but wouldn't argue if Kvyat got 5 seconds and just that.
How can it be a divebomb? He was alongside Stroll on the preceding straight as well. Stroll turned in, I imagine expecting Kvyat to... Evaporate? He did the same thing to Norris in Portugal as well.

Kvyat has never been crash happy. The moniker "torpedo" is so unwarranted and comes from two incidents, one of which he did nothing wrong. Just Vettel moaning and getting animated like he does when the red carpet isn't rolled out for him. See his reaction to Leclerc daring to overtake him today for another example of that.
BIB: Absolutely classic.

And as for Stroll expecting his competitors to evaporate, he's starting to make that par for the course.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:08 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:01 pm
https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/29/kvy ... ed-stroll/

The more I watch this incident, the more I do think Kvyat was to blame. He sort of did an incredibly slow divebomb and didn't seem at all committed, so I can understand why Kvyat holds most of the blame.

However, as palmer mentined after the chinese grand prix last year in an incident with Norris, the stewards seem to give Kyvay far harsher penalties than they should, possibly based on his past? 10 seconds and 2 penalty points is ridiculous for this. I think it was a racing incident but wouldn't argue if Kvyat got 5 seconds and just that.
How can it be a divebomb? He was alongside Stroll on the preceding straight as well. Stroll turned in, I imagine expecting Kvyat to... Evaporate? He did the same thing to Norris in Portugal as well.

Kvyat has never been crash happy. The moniker "torpedo" is so unwarranted and comes from two incidents, one of which he did nothing wrong. Just Vettel moaning and getting animated like he does when the red carpet isn't rolled out for him. See his reaction to Leclerc daring to overtake him today for another example of that.
I often disagree with the degree of the penalties given by stewards, but if it is so one sided to them by this much, I virtually never end up thinking the penalty should have gone to the other driver.

I disagree with the extent of this penalty, but surely there is a good reason why they concider one driver to be specifically to blame? Kvyat approached so cautiously that he had more than enough time to back off. It was becoming obvious what Stroll was doing. I just don't think he was committed enough.

We will see what the stewards say. I'm not normally against Kvyat and he often gets way too much criticism, but I do think he was mostly to blame here.

Edit:
Looking back at what Brundel said too:
"touch ambitious from Kvyat. Infact he didn't really commit to it"

He considered it a racing incident, which I did at the time. But from seeing more replays, I honestly think Kvyat should have either tried harder or backed off.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:08 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:01 pm
https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/29/kvy ... ed-stroll/

The more I watch this incident, the more I do think Kvyat was to blame. He sort of did an incredibly slow divebomb and didn't seem at all committed, so I can understand why Kvyat holds most of the blame.

However, as palmer mentined after the chinese grand prix last year in an incident with Norris, the stewards seem to give Kyvay far harsher penalties than they should, possibly based on his past? 10 seconds and 2 penalty points is ridiculous for this. I think it was a racing incident but wouldn't argue if Kvyat got 5 seconds and just that.
How can it be a divebomb? He was alongside Stroll on the preceding straight as well. Stroll turned in, I imagine expecting Kvyat to... Evaporate? He did the same thing to Norris in Portugal as well.

Kvyat has never been crash happy. The moniker "torpedo" is so unwarranted and comes from two incidents, one of which he did nothing wrong. Just Vettel moaning and getting animated like he does when the red carpet isn't rolled out for him. See his reaction to Leclerc daring to overtake him today for another example of that.
I often disagree with the degree of the penalties given by stewards, but if it is so one sided to them by this much, I virtually never end up thinking the penalty should have gone to the other driver.

I disagree with the extent of this penalty, but surely there is a good reason why they concider one driver to be specifically to blame? Kvyat approached so cautiously that he had more than enough time to back off. It was becoming obvious what Stroll was doing. I just don't think he was committed enough.

We will see what the stewards say. I'm not normally against Kvyat and he often gets way too much criticism, but I do think he was mostly to blame here.
I'm not much interested what the stewards say. They regularly make mistakes. Your argument seems to be Kvyat could have decided not to try and overtake and thus is at fault? Well yes, he could. So does that mean when cars collide the overtaking driver is always to blame?

When it became clear Stroll was going to ignore the presence of another car Kvyat tried desperately to get out of the way. Even climbing over the curb.

Why do you thin Stroll is allowed to use whatever part of the track he wants, even if another car is already on it?

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Kvyat's move on Stroll reminded me a little of Hamilton's on Albon at Brazil last year. Went for the gap then tried to back out. As Brundle said, either go full in or don't go at all. If you go full in at least the other driver sees you.
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:24 pm
Your argument seems to be Kvyat could have decided not to try and overtake and thus is at fault? Well yes, he could. So does that mean when cars collide the overtaking driver is always to blame?

When it became clear Stroll was going to ignore the presence of another car Kvyat tried desperately to get out of the way. Even climbing over the curb.

Why do you thin Stroll is allowed to use whatever part of the track he wants, even if another car is already on it?
Basic driving etiquette dictates that the onus is on the attacking car to overtake safely.

I think it's a racing incident, after re-watching several angles. I don't think the move by Kvyat was really on, but I also think Stroll should have left him room to avoid a collision. Kvyat wouldn't have got past anyway, since he wasn't ever alongside.


19 seconds in for Vettel's POV is the best angle I think
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by LBET »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:46 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:44 pm
Not great great from Kvyat that.
Why? He couldn't get any further to the left. Stroll turned in on him.
You guys really gotta get over your Stroll bias. Really...

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Perez's radio talk with engineer when his engine started to smoke:

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:21 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:24 pm
Your argument seems to be Kvyat could have decided not to try and overtake and thus is at fault? Well yes, he could. So does that mean when cars collide the overtaking driver is always to blame?

When it became clear Stroll was going to ignore the presence of another car Kvyat tried desperately to get out of the way. Even climbing over the curb.

Why do you thin Stroll is allowed to use whatever part of the track he wants, even if another car is already on it?
Basic driving etiquette dictates that the onus is on the attacking car to overtake safely.

I think it's a racing incident, after re-watching several angles. I don't think the move by Kvyat was really on, but I also think Stroll should have left him room to avoid a collision. Kvyat wouldn't have got past anyway, since he wasn't ever alongside.


19 seconds in for Vettel's POV is the best angle I think
Just about every out braking manoeuvre we have ever seen requires the car in front to give room at some point. Stroll didn't do that. Kvyat was alongside all the way through the braking phase of the corner. If he isn't alongside they don't touch and there is no accident.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

OK, Bottas literally did only get 3 tyres changed in his final stop - as the team were aware that one of the 4 they were about to put on had a puncture. So he did 19 laps on 3 of them, and 32 on the other! The question is, why did he pit when he'd only done 13 laps only to change to 3 new tyres? If he got to the end with an uneven set of tyres, surely he could have managed a better result on equally worn tyres without the extra pit stop time?

I think that is another race that is a bit hard to judge Bottas. A puncture in the 2nd stint, an uneven set of tyres in the final stint as well as picking up yet another puncture here too. It isn't all that surprising that he couldn't catch Ricciardo now.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/30/202 ... and-tyres/

"Valtteri Bottas endured another luckless race, picking up a pair of punctures on his way to eighth place. At his final pit stop Mercedes switched him back to his original set of medium tyres, but as he’d punctured the front-right on this set, they did not re-fit that tyre. He therefore took just three tyres at his final pit stop."



I think they only receive a penalty if they mix the compounds. I think it was spa 2015 or 2016 that Williams once put on 3 hards and a medium (or the other way round) on Bottas's car and he got a drive through.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think i mostly agree with this too. I do think Stroll has a lack of spacial awareness but only when drivers are approaching him. In terms of his skill when he does his overtakes, I would say he is excellent. Some of his moved in Italy were brilliant, even if they were on drivers in slow cars such as kimi. And the way several times this year, the way he's started the races and opportunities taken, he's normally judged them incredibly well. He looked to have more grip than almost every other driver in the first few corners in Russia. I think there could be something special Stroll does in terms of formation lap preparation.

But I will admit that he often does seem a little oblivious as to what is behind him. Though this was only his 2nd race and it was Sainz's fault Stroll did seem to turn in even though it looked quite obvious that Sainz was carrying too much speed. Some drivers allow drivers room if they come up the inside (which I don't always think should be the case)

Verstappen's pass on Ericsson in China 2015 had heaps of praise, but if Ericsson didn't do a massive open of the steering, he could have been flipped upside down like Stroll was by Sainz. IMO, in this sort of scenaria, I almost always would blame the driver on the inside, unless they get fully or more than fully along side and making it clear that they are there.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.

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Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18366
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.
Stroll is fully obliged to leave space for a driver who is alongside him. Essentially he tried to get to a piece of race track Kvyat was already on. My opinion on this is always the same. I believe drivers need to leave space for those alongside them and being on the racing line gives them no entitlement to simply crash into a driver who got to the piece of track they want to be on before them.

Siao7
Posts: 8889
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.
Stroll is fully obliged to leave space for a driver who is alongside him. Essentially he tried to get to a piece of race track Kvyat was already on. My opinion on this is always the same. I believe drivers need to leave space for those alongside them and being on the racing line gives them no entitlement to simply crash into a driver who got to the piece of track they want to be on before them.
Brundle called it a race incident, but I am of two minds; from one point of view Kvyat wasn't fully alongside and he was quite ambitious, but I also can't stop thinking how much more sharply Stroll seems to turn into the corner compared to the cars ahead of him. It is not illegal obviously to do that, just shows a lack of awareness when he knows that another driver is trying to get inside.

Rockie
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.
Stroll is fully obliged to leave space for a driver who is alongside him. Essentially he tried to get to a piece of race track Kvyat was already on. My opinion on this is always the same. I believe drivers need to leave space for those alongside them and being on the racing line gives them no entitlement to simply crash into a driver who got to the piece of track they want to be on before them.
Kyvat was not along side him when he was turning in, he arrived there late, no sensible driver attempted that line into the corner majority of the support for Kyvat is because of the apathy and dislike of Stroll nothing else.

Rockie
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm


Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.
Stroll is fully obliged to leave space for a driver who is alongside him. Essentially he tried to get to a piece of race track Kvyat was already on. My opinion on this is always the same. I believe drivers need to leave space for those alongside them and being on the racing line gives them no entitlement to simply crash into a driver who got to the piece of track they want to be on before them.
Brundle called it a race incident, but I am of two minds; from one point of view Kvyat wasn't fully alongside and he was quite ambitious, but I also can't stop thinking how much more sharply Stroll seems to turn into the corner compared to the cars ahead of him. It is not illegal obviously to do that, just shows a lack of awareness when he knows that another driver is trying to get inside.
Like I always say Sky commentators particularly Brundle corrupt the mind of viewers as whatever he says people view incidents through that prism.

Siao7
Posts: 8889
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:56 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm


I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.
Stroll is fully obliged to leave space for a driver who is alongside him. Essentially he tried to get to a piece of race track Kvyat was already on. My opinion on this is always the same. I believe drivers need to leave space for those alongside them and being on the racing line gives them no entitlement to simply crash into a driver who got to the piece of track they want to be on before them.
Brundle called it a race incident, but I am of two minds; from one point of view Kvyat wasn't fully alongside and he was quite ambitious, but I also can't stop thinking how much more sharply Stroll seems to turn into the corner compared to the cars ahead of him. It is not illegal obviously to do that, just shows a lack of awareness when he knows that another driver is trying to get inside.
Like I always say Sky commentators particularly Brundle corrupt the mind of viewers as whatever he says people view incidents through that prism.
Brundle is not just another run-of-the-mill commentator though, he was also a driver and knows his stuff. I do not always agree with him by the way (you'll notice that I am in two minds about that incident above), but he generally is one of the better commentators. I can't remember him making many mistakes throughout the years

j man
Posts: 3559
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:02 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:56 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm


Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.
Stroll is fully obliged to leave space for a driver who is alongside him. Essentially he tried to get to a piece of race track Kvyat was already on. My opinion on this is always the same. I believe drivers need to leave space for those alongside them and being on the racing line gives them no entitlement to simply crash into a driver who got to the piece of track they want to be on before them.
Brundle called it a race incident, but I am of two minds; from one point of view Kvyat wasn't fully alongside and he was quite ambitious, but I also can't stop thinking how much more sharply Stroll seems to turn into the corner compared to the cars ahead of him. It is not illegal obviously to do that, just shows a lack of awareness when he knows that another driver is trying to get inside.
Like I always say Sky commentators particularly Brundle corrupt the mind of viewers as whatever he says people view incidents through that prism.
Brundle is not just another run-of-the-mill commentator though, he was also a driver and knows his stuff. I do not always agree with him by the way (you'll notice that I am in two minds about that incident above), but he generally is one of the better commentators. I can't remember him making many mistakes throughout the years
:thumbup:

He has commentated on the sport for nearly 25 years and made 158 F1 starts before that. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but his opinion is definitely worth listening to.

On the Kvyat/Stroll incident, I do agree with what Brundle said here. Kvyat seemed to be in two minds about whether to go for the pass or back off, and ended up doing something halfway between the two. Racing incident, but more Kvyat's fault than Stroll's I think.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18366
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:54 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm


Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Kyvat was not making that corner without taking someone out, all you need to look at is every other drivers trajectory through the corner, Stroll was not obliged to bailout Kyvat.

Hence why the stewards deemed it causing a collision, this is similar to Bottas v Hamilton in 2016, I'm sure if it was Kyvat v race leader your opinion would change.
Stroll is fully obliged to leave space for a driver who is alongside him. Essentially he tried to get to a piece of race track Kvyat was already on. My opinion on this is always the same. I believe drivers need to leave space for those alongside them and being on the racing line gives them no entitlement to simply crash into a driver who got to the piece of track they want to be on before them.
Kyvat was not along side him when he was turning in, he arrived there late, no sensible driver attempted that line into the corner majority of the support for Kyvat is because of the apathy and dislike of Stroll nothing else.
How can you say he was late? He got there before Stroll. That was the problem.

User avatar
tootsie323
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am

Re: 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:47 am
My view is that, as Kvyat was at no point fully alongside Stroll giong into that corner, he had not 'earned the right to claim it.' I also think that a driver with more experience - and, as a result, awareness - than Stroll may well have avoided contact (ironically, Vettel, who was right behind that incident, had backed out of probable contact in turn 1 on the same restart).
I'd have most likely shrugged off a racing incident decision but, if blame had to be apportioned I'd balance it towards Kvyat. 10 seconds seems a bit harsh though - Hamilton had a 5-sec penalty for a similar move on Albon in Brazil last year.
Exactly, I wonder how people watched that and have come to the conclusion they have, it was obvious that gap was going to close from everyone going through that corner. Stroll was on the racing line no way Kyvat was making that corner at the angle he was going in.
I think the where the blame lies it's debatable. It depends if you think being on the racing line means you can ignore another driver alongside you and turn into him basically.

What is not debatable though is whether or not Kvyat could have made the corner. He ended up at the apex at a very slow speed and was always going to be able to keep a tight inside line.
Debatable, absolutely. One case in point is how one interprets 'alongside.' I don't see that Kvyat was fully alongside Stroll at anypoint going into that corner. Another point is whether he needs to be 'fully' alongside before Stroll should concede the inside (or racing) line .
I agree that Kvyat was making that corner. He all but had the car totally stopped at the point of contact.
I actually think that he'd have been better off overshooting, putting himself directly into Stroll's vision, forcing Stroll to take evasive action and effectively completing a block-pass.There's a small chance that he may have been asked to give the position back, depending on whether Stroll would have had to go off-circuit, but that's all ifs and whats.
I don't believe that Stroll deliberately ignored Kvyat, more that he simply did not expect Kvyat to be there. That could be interpreted as lack of awareness / experience but I fall on the side of if you make a dive for a corner, it should be on you to ensure it's completed without incident.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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