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Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:09 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:01 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:49 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm

Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.

He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.

I guess we have different views of what constitutes a title fight. If you’re able to win a title going into the final race I’d say that counts.

On a side note, still waiting for you to tell me where I called the Red Bull’s ‘Newey Rocketships’. Didn’t expect you to reply somehow.

It was a common trope of the period saying you didn't call it that does not detract from it as all we kept hearing was it was all Newey.

Also I wont call needing all the contenders not to score as being in the title fight.

I look forward to your apology for saying I said something which I didn’t then. Newey was important to the success of Vettel/Red Bull but the same applies for literally any world champions ever.

Hamilton didn’t need all the contenders not to score. He needed one not to score and the other two to score less than expected, which one of them actually did (Webber).

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:31 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:09 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:01 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:49 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm

Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.

He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.

I guess we have different views of what constitutes a title fight. If you’re able to win a title going into the final race I’d say that counts.

On a side note, still waiting for you to tell me where I called the Red Bull’s ‘Newey Rocketships’. Didn’t expect you to reply somehow.

It was a common trope of the period saying you didn't call it that does not detract from it as all we kept hearing was it was all Newey.

Also I wont call needing all the contenders not to score as being in the title fight.

I look forward to your apology for saying I said something which I didn’t then. Newey was important to the success of Vettel/Red Bull but the same applies for literally any world champions ever.

Hamilton didn’t need all the contenders not to score. He needed one not to score and the other two to score less than expected, which one of them actually did (Webber).

Agreeing with posts like that is same thing anyway.

Also he was mathematically in it like Bottas was this year.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:48 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:31 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:09 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:01 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:49 pm

He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.

I guess we have different views of what constitutes a title fight. If you’re able to win a title going into the final race I’d say that counts.

On a side note, still waiting for you to tell me where I called the Red Bull’s ‘Newey Rocketships’. Didn’t expect you to reply somehow.

It was a common trope of the period saying you didn't call it that does not detract from it as all we kept hearing was it was all Newey.

Also I wont call needing all the contenders not to score as being in the title fight.

I look forward to your apology for saying I said something which I didn’t then. Newey was important to the success of Vettel/Red Bull but the same applies for literally any world champions ever.

Hamilton didn’t need all the contenders not to score. He needed one not to score and the other two to score less than expected, which one of them actually did (Webber).

Agreeing with posts like that is same thing anyway.

Also he was mathematically in it like Bottas was this year.

No, you said I’d used the words ‘Newey Rocketships’ on this forum which I never have.

I’d say ‘Newey Rocketships’ suggest that Red Bull’s cars were the sole reason for Vettel winning 4x WDC, which clearly isn’t the case.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:28 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

This is the problem with some Hamilton fans you explain your position but they read something else and come to a conclusion in their head, I said Bottas is no competition to Hamilton but somehow it means I'm denigrating Bottas.

'No competition' can rarely be construed as anything but a dismissal.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

...not to reply as I see you deliberately avoided '09-'13.

What did I not reply to? Button was much more consistent in 2011 but that doesn't exclude the fact that Hamilton haemorraged a huge amount of points from reliability while leading or running strongly relative to Button who was rarely in the podium places when his car failed.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

Second best driver since '07 how exactly? by being in the title fight just twice till '14?

Hamilton has been consistently there or there abouts and has outperformed extremely fast teammates in the long run in an extremely competitive field where his car was only the best very, very infrequently before 2014. In the timespan I've mentioned, nobody has been as remotely consistent as Hamilton, not Vettel, not Ricciardo, only Alonso has a very good claim for superiority.

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

He wasn't the only one who suffered from reliability in this period.

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:56 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:48 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:31 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:09 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:01 pm

I guess we have different views of what constitutes a title fight. If you’re able to win a title going into the final race I’d say that counts.

On a side note, still waiting for you to tell me where I called the Red Bull’s ‘Newey Rocketships’. Didn’t expect you to reply somehow.

It was a common trope of the period saying you didn't call it that does not detract from it as all we kept hearing was it was all Newey.

Also I wont call needing all the contenders not to score as being in the title fight.

I look forward to your apology for saying I said something which I didn’t then. Newey was important to the success of Vettel/Red Bull but the same applies for literally any world champions ever.

Hamilton didn’t need all the contenders not to score. He needed one not to score and the other two to score less than expected, which one of them actually did (Webber).

Agreeing with posts like that is same thing anyway.

Also he was mathematically in it like Bottas was this year.

No, you said I’d used the words ‘Newey Rocketships’ on this forum which I never have.

I’d say ‘Newey Rocketships’ suggest that Red Bull’s cars were the sole reason for Vettel winning 4x WDC, which clearly isn’t the case.

Unfortunately I don't have tie to go searching so will have to take you at your word for what you are saying.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:28 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

This is the problem with some Hamilton fans you explain your position but they read something else and come to a conclusion in their head, I said Bottas is no competition to Hamilton but somehow it means I'm denigrating Bottas.

'No competition' can rarely be construed as anything but a dismissal.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

...not to reply as I see you deliberately avoided '09-'13.

What did I not reply to? Button was much more consistent in 2011 but that doesn't exclude the fact that Hamilton haemorraged a huge amount of points from reliability while leading or running strongly relative to Button who was rarely in the podium places when his car failed.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

Second best driver since '07 how exactly? by being in the title fight just twice till '14?

Hamilton has been consistently there or there abouts and has outperformed extremely fast teammates in the long run in an extremely competitive field where his car was only the best very, very infrequently before 2014. In the timespan I've mentioned, nobody has been as remotely consistent as Hamilton, not Vettel, not Ricciardo, only Alonso has a very good claim for superiority.

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

He wasn't the only one who suffered from reliability in this period.

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

He won the WDC in 2014.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:28 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

This is the problem with some Hamilton fans you explain your position but they read something else and come to a conclusion in their head, I said Bottas is no competition to Hamilton but somehow it means I'm denigrating Bottas.

'No competition' can rarely be construed as anything but a dismissal.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

...not to reply as I see you deliberately avoided '09-'13.

What did I not reply to? Button was much more consistent in 2011 but that doesn't exclude the fact that Hamilton haemorraged a huge amount of points from reliability while leading or running strongly relative to Button who was rarely in the podium places when his car failed.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

Second best driver since '07 how exactly? by being in the title fight just twice till '14?

Hamilton has been consistently there or there abouts and has outperformed extremely fast teammates in the long run in an extremely competitive field where his car was only the best very, very infrequently before 2014. In the timespan I've mentioned, nobody has been as remotely consistent as Hamilton, not Vettel, not Ricciardo, only Alonso has a very good claim for superiority.

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

He wasn't the only one who suffered from reliability in this period.

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

By Vettel in red bull kind of season, I assume you’re referring to 2011 and 2013?

Hamilton this season is on track for something similar. 10 from 14 wins so far so compared to 11/19 and 13/19. That’s pretty similar.

I’d say Hamilton’s 2015 meets that criteria as well.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:28 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

This is the problem with some Hamilton fans you explain your position but they read something else and come to a conclusion in their head, I said Bottas is no competition to Hamilton but somehow it means I'm denigrating Bottas.

'No competition' can rarely be construed as anything but a dismissal.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

...not to reply as I see you deliberately avoided '09-'13.

What did I not reply to? Button was much more consistent in 2011 but that doesn't exclude the fact that Hamilton haemorraged a huge amount of points from reliability while leading or running strongly relative to Button who was rarely in the podium places when his car failed.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

Second best driver since '07 how exactly? by being in the title fight just twice till '14?

Hamilton has been consistently there or there abouts and has outperformed extremely fast teammates in the long run in an extremely competitive field where his car was only the best very, very infrequently before 2014. In the timespan I've mentioned, nobody has been as remotely consistent as Hamilton, not Vettel, not Ricciardo, only Alonso has a very good claim for superiority.

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

He wasn't the only one who suffered from reliability in this period.

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

He won the WDC in 2014.

Oh really, I didn't realise that might need to go check the results again.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:10 am

Rockie wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm

This is just ridiculous, Bottas beats everyone else but assume Hamilton in the Ferrari would have done better in the way he could not do vs Vettel at Redbull.

Of course, Hamilton hasn't matured as a driver at all since joining Mercedes! His performance level has risen steadily to meet his 2007 potential, particularly from 2016 onwards.

Hamilton was in title contention in 2010 and 2012 both time hampered by unreliability and being crashed into by Maldonado, Grosjean and Hulkenberg while in strong positions.

Not to mention that Hamilton had Button in his prime as a teammate rather than a declining Webber. Add in the fact, Alonso was also challenging strongly each year and it makes Hamilton's 4th and 5th places look better.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm

Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.

What sort of nonsense point is this? The point is that once the race came to him, he sprinted away with it. Hamilton kept himself in contention, looked after his tyres and unlocked the performance of the car. A hallmark of an all time great driver.

The number of people still clinging on to Hamilton being flattered by his cars as if he's a gourmet Damon Hill is hilarious. I for one still think Vettel is a great driver despite his struggles over the last 2 years.

Hamilton crashed himself out of 2010 title race, also in '12 he had his howlers as well but people focus on the reliability and ignore the fact he's not just consistent.

How does Hamilton being beaten by Alonso make him look better when he was in a better car, Button beat Alonso in the same car.

The improvement since '17 is because he now has Bottas as a team mate who is no competition, had Rosberg stayed that improvement will look different and a quick look at stats would show you that.

Rosberg retired citing himself as being burnt out after being Hamilton's teammate, another what if scenario.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:49 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm

Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.

He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.

Going into the last race of 2010 it was still mathematically possible for Hamilton to be WDC, not bad in the 3rd best car.

For 2012 you list all of Vettel's misfortunes then I will list Hamiltons.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

No. Point taken.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Again, you've taken what I said out of context. In the 12 years since Hamilton's debut he has been at worst the 2nd best driver over those 12 years.

To remind you, Vettel has had awful seasons in 2014, 2019 and 2020 in a way that Hamilton has never had. 2011 can be at worst described as inconsistent and contained some of Hamilton's best perfomances and worst.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

I think that has a lot to do with a washed up Mark Webber driving the other car and a team built around Vettel to the detriment of Webber. Only Vettel's 2010 is remotely comparable to Hamilton's run between 2010-2016.

Neither McLaren or Mercedes built the team around him and measures were taken to ensure a level playing field. Hard to string together a 13 win streak when the team gives 700 page dossiers to your teammate and shuffles your garage crew to help them be faster.

I believe to this day that had Alonso been a Red Bull driver with Vettel from 2009-2013 that we would have seen 2011-style dominance every year and the cars didn't reach close to their theoretical potential in the hands of Vettel and Webber.

Hamilton's made very promising drivers like Kovalainen (who comfortably beat Fisichella in 2007 in his own team) and Bottas (undefeated before partnering Hamilton) and made them look ordinary.

Just gonna quickly pop this in here.

At this stage, I don't think Vettel is in Hamilton's bracket, whether right now or in the context of their whole careers to date.

Different classes of driver.

Aight ciao.

Actually I best remedy this post by making it appear as if it's on topic.... so...

I came across this article the other day:

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/f3-max- ... ull/18344/


What if the Verstappens had followed through with Mercedes at that very early stage?

Was this the beginning of the end?

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:09 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:01 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:49 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm

Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.

He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.

I guess we have different views of what constitutes a title fight. If you’re able to win a title going into the final race I’d say that counts.

On a side note, still waiting for you to tell me where I called the Red Bull’s ‘Newey Rocketships’. Didn’t expect you to reply somehow.

It was a common trope of the period saying you didn't call it that does not detract from it as all we kept hearing was it was all Newey.

Also I wont call needing all the contenders not to score as being in the title fight.

False

Drivers' Championship standings

1 Fernando Alonso 246
2 Mark Webber 238
3 Sebastian Vettel 231
4 Lewis Hamilton 222

He was only 9 points behind Vettel who won the WDC, in a much better car I might add.

Invade wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:20 pm

What if the Verstappens had followed through with Mercedes at that very early stage?

All I can say is that a Hamilton vs Verstappen titanic battle may have cost Mercedes the titles in 2018, I feel Hamilton would have had the edge if he'd been promoted in 2017 but a year later would have been a different story.

We missed out...

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:15 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

No. Point taken.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Again, you've taken what I said out of context. In the 12 years since Hamilton's debut he has been at worst the 2nd best driver over those 12 years.

To remind you, Vettel has had awful seasons in 2014, 2019 and 2020 in a way that Hamilton has never had. 2011 can be at worst described as inconsistent and contained some of Hamilton's best perfomances and worst.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

I think that has a lot to do with a washed up Mark Webber driving the other car and a team built around Vettel to the detriment of Webber. Only Vettel's 2010 is remotely comparable to Hamilton's run between 2010-2016.

Neither McLaren or Mercedes built the team around him and measures were taken to ensure a level playing field. Hard to string together a 13 win streak when the team gives 700 page dossiers to your teammate and shuffles your garage crew to help them be faster.

I believe to this day that had Alonso been a Red Bull driver with Vettel from 2009-2013 that we would have seen 2011-style dominance every year and the cars didn't reach close to their theoretical potential in the hands of Vettel and Webber.

Hamilton's made very promising drivers like Kovalainen (who comfortably beat Fisichella in 2007 in his own team) and Bottas (undefeated before partnering Hamilton) and made them look ordinary.

the same Alonso that had to have Massa's gearbox seal broken so as to be moved to a cleaner side of the grid.

Please let me not laugh maybe a re watch of the '12 season will refresh your memory.

Also maybe re watch '09 and the reliability problems Redbull had with Vettel short on engines and had to do just one lap in qualifying compared to others.

Kovalainen finished just ahead of Vettel in the championship and Vettel was in a TR.

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:03 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:28 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

This is the problem with some Hamilton fans you explain your position but they read something else and come to a conclusion in their head, I said Bottas is no competition to Hamilton but somehow it means I'm denigrating Bottas.

'No competition' can rarely be construed as anything but a dismissal.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

...not to reply as I see you deliberately avoided '09-'13.

What did I not reply to? Button was much more consistent in 2011 but that doesn't exclude the fact that Hamilton haemorraged a huge amount of points from reliability while leading or running strongly relative to Button who was rarely in the podium places when his car failed.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm

Second best driver since '07 how exactly? by being in the title fight just twice till '14?

Hamilton has been consistently there or there abouts and has outperformed extremely fast teammates in the long run in an extremely competitive field where his car was only the best very, very infrequently before 2014. In the timespan I've mentioned, nobody has been as remotely consistent as Hamilton, not Vettel, not Ricciardo, only Alonso has a very good claim for superiority.

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

He wasn't the only one who suffered from reliability in this period.

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

By Vettel in red bull kind of season, I assume you’re referring to 2011 and 2013?

Hamilton this season is on track for something similar. 10 from 14 wins so far so compared to 11/19 and 13/19. That’s pretty similar.

I’d say Hamilton’s 2015 meets that criteria as well.

Nope only one other constructor has won in the years you mention, in the Redbull period we are talking about where a Ferrari could win also Mclaren and Mercedes as well

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:39 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:15 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?

No. Point taken.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.

Again, you've taken what I said out of context. In the 12 years since Hamilton's debut he has been at worst the 2nd best driver over those 12 years.

To remind you, Vettel has had awful seasons in 2014, 2019 and 2020 in a way that Hamilton has never had. 2011 can be at worst described as inconsistent and contained some of Hamilton's best perfomances and worst.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm

Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.

I think that has a lot to do with a washed up Mark Webber driving the other car and a team built around Vettel to the detriment of Webber. Only Vettel's 2010 is remotely comparable to Hamilton's run between 2010-2016.

Neither McLaren or Mercedes built the team around him and measures were taken to ensure a level playing field. Hard to string together a 13 win streak when the team gives 700 page dossiers to your teammate and shuffles your garage crew to help them be faster.

I believe to this day that had Alonso been a Red Bull driver with Vettel from 2009-2013 that we would have seen 2011-style dominance every year and the cars didn't reach close to their theoretical potential in the hands of Vettel and Webber.

Hamilton's made very promising drivers like Kovalainen (who comfortably beat Fisichella in 2007 in his own team) and Bottas (undefeated before partnering Hamilton) and made them look ordinary.

the same Alonso that had to have Massa's gearbox seal broken so as to be moved to a cleaner side of the grid.

Please let me not laugh maybe a re watch of the '12 season will refresh your memory.

Also maybe re watch '09 and the reliability problems Redbull had with Vettel short on engines and had to do just one lap in qualifying compared to others.

Kovalainen finished just ahead of Vettel in the championship and Vettel was in a TR.

What happened to Vettel in 2014, 2019 and 2020?

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:27 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:20 pm

What if the Verstappens had followed through with Mercedes at that very early stage?

All I can say is that a Hamilton vs Verstappen titanic battle may have cost Mercedes the titles in 2018, I feel Hamilton would have had the edge if he'd been promoted in 2017 but a year later would have been a different story.

We missed out...

I think Verstappen only reached Hamilton's level over the course of a season from 2019 onwards, but maybe Vettel would've sneaked through in 2018. I'm guessing Verstappen's development would have been slower though in being brought into F1 later, so perhaps he'd have needed until 2020 to really be equal to Hamilton, maybe better. Of course we're just mucking about with fantasy here but it's fun anyway.

We did miss out - I agree. I feel that way rather often about the ongoing era.

I'm very much enjoying F1 anyway.

Invade wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:32 pm

I think Verstappen only reached Hamilton's level over the course of a season from 2019 onwards, but maybe Vettel would've sneaked through in 2018. I'm guessing Verstappen's development would have been slower though in being brought into F1 later, so perhaps he'd have needed until 2020 to really be equal to Hamilton, maybe better. Of course we're just mucking about with fantasy here but it's fun anyway.

I'd like to think he'd got a seat at Williams in 2015 or 2016 and had a couple of years as a backmarker to humble him. Yeah, I agree perhaps the shorter 2020 season would have presented a bigger opportunity to Max given Hamilton's form in 2018 and 2019.

Invade wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:32 pm

We did miss out - I agree. I feel that way rather often about the ongoing era.

For what it's worth I thought 2017, 2018 and 2019 were highly entertaining seasons with an all too predictable ending.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:57 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:32 pm

I think Verstappen only reached Hamilton's level over the course of a season from 2019 onwards, but maybe Vettel would've sneaked through in 2018. I'm guessing Verstappen's development would have been slower though in being brought into F1 later, so perhaps he'd have needed until 2020 to really be equal to Hamilton, maybe better. Of course we're just mucking about with fantasy here but it's fun anyway.

I'd like to think he'd got a seat at Williams in 2015 or 2016 and had a couple of years as a backmarker to humble him. Yeah, I agree perhaps the shorter 2020 season would have presented a bigger opportunity to Max given Hamilton's form in 2018 and 2019.

Invade wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:32 pm

We did miss out - I agree. I feel that way rather often about the ongoing era.

For what it's worth I thought 2017, 2018 and 2019 were highly entertaining seasons with an all too predictable ending.

No Mercedes wanted to place Verstappen into GP2 for 2015, that's the reason why they signed for Red Bull, straight to F1 rather than the minefield of GP2.

Hamilton is not ruining Verstappen 's legacy.

However, if it is true that the Verstappens are blocking a remotely competitive teammate for Max, then this will taint his legacy for sure.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:00 pm

Hamilton is not ruining Verstappen 's legacy.

However, if it is true that the Verstappens are blocking a remotely competitive teammate for Max, then this will taint his legacy for sure.

Verstappen beat Ricciardo fairly clearly on qualifying pace in 2017 and 2018.

The same Ricciardo who has smashed every other teammate he’s ever had on Saturday - Vergne, Vettel, Kvyat, Hulkenberg, and now Ocon

While Ricciardo is the only established benchmark Verstappen has competed against, Ricciardo’s record against his teammates is so impressive that it leaves zero doubt in my mind about the speed of Verstappen.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:24 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:00 pm

Hamilton is not ruining Verstappen 's legacy.

However, if it is true that the Verstappens are blocking a remotely competitive teammate for Max, then this will taint his legacy for sure.

Verstappen beat Ricciardo fairly clearly on qualifying pace in 2017 and 2018.

The same Ricciardo who has smashed every other teammate he’s ever had on Saturday - Vergne, Vettel, Kvyat, Hulkenberg, and now Ocon

While Ricciardo is the only established benchmark Verstappen has competed against, Ricciardo’s record against his teammates is so impressive that it leaves zero doubt in my mind about the speed of Verstappen.

These are two different things though. Verstappen's speed isn't in question, I don't think it ever was in reality (for the reasons you very well explained above).

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:19 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:24 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:00 pm

Hamilton is not ruining Verstappen 's legacy.

However, if it is true that the Verstappens are blocking a remotely competitive teammate for Max, then this will taint his legacy for sure.

Verstappen beat Ricciardo fairly clearly on qualifying pace in 2017 and 2018.

The same Ricciardo who has smashed every other teammate he’s ever had on Saturday - Vergne, Vettel, Kvyat, Hulkenberg, and now Ocon

While Ricciardo is the only established benchmark Verstappen has competed against, Ricciardo’s record against his teammates is so impressive that it leaves zero doubt in my mind about the speed of Verstappen.

These are two different things though. Verstappen's speed isn't in question, I don't think it ever was in reality (for the reasons you very well explained above).

I don't know. If in 15 years, people complain that Verstappen isn't the GOAT because he had easy teammates, then I think that argument is flawed. His time with Ricciardo as teammate would be solid proof against that.

Whether the Verstappens are blocking a move or not is not an important factor imo. Especially since it's likely a decision made primarily by his father, not him. And also since there's zero proof of Verstappen attempting to block a drive - he was fairly critical of Albon and sung praises of Checo after the race.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:00 pm

Hamilton is not ruining Verstappen 's legacy.

However, if it is true that the Verstappens are blocking a remotely competitive teammate for Max, then this will taint his legacy for sure.

Remember there is no proof they are and no proof they even could.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:30 pm

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:00 pm

Hamilton is not ruining Verstappen 's legacy.

However, if it is true that the Verstappens are blocking a remotely competitive teammate for Max, then this will taint his legacy for sure.

Remember there is no proof they are and no proof they even could.

Hence, the if-part.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:39 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:19 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:24 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:00 pm

Hamilton is not ruining Verstappen 's legacy.

However, if it is true that the Verstappens are blocking a remotely competitive teammate for Max, then this will taint his legacy for sure.

Verstappen beat Ricciardo fairly clearly on qualifying pace in 2017 and 2018.

The same Ricciardo who has smashed every other teammate he’s ever had on Saturday - Vergne, Vettel, Kvyat, Hulkenberg, and now Ocon

While Ricciardo is the only established benchmark Verstappen has competed against, Ricciardo’s record against his teammates is so impressive that it leaves zero doubt in my mind about the speed of Verstappen.

These are two different things though. Verstappen's speed isn't in question, I don't think it ever was in reality (for the reasons you very well explained above).

I don't know. If in 15 years, people complain that Verstappen isn't the GOAT because he had easy teammates, then I think that argument is flawed. His time with Ricciardo as teammate would be solid proof against that.

Whether the Verstappens are blocking a move or not is not an important factor imo. Especially since it's likely a decision made primarily by his father, not him. And also since there's zero proof of Verstappen attempting to block a drive - he was fairly critical of Albon and sung praises of Checo after the race.

For me Max needs to get away from the current Redbull umbrella in order for me to accurately assess his speed. Ricciardo was handling him rather easily at first and then it started turning the other way. No one can prove to me that it wasn’t due to the team favoring him. Maybe it is not but maybe it is. I need to see that. I need to see max perform in a neutral environment.

Russell just outqualified Verstappen in his first weekend driving this Mercedes car, 16 rounds into the season, while driving in shoes that are too small for him and a seat that doesn’t fully fit.

A more accurate statements would be:

Mercedes dominance is ruining Verstappen’s statistics, and therefore his legacy

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:57 am

Russell just outqualified Verstappen in his first weekend driving the Mercedes car, in round 16, while driving in shoes that are too small for him and a seat that doesn’t fully fit.

A more accurate statements would be:

Mercedes dominance is ruining Verstappen’s statistics, and therefore his legacy

There's also this possibility:

Mercedes domination is made to look more severe than it is due to overrating of Verstappen.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:58 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:57 am

Russell just outqualified Verstappen in his first weekend driving the Mercedes car, in round 16, while driving in shoes that are too small for him and a seat that doesn’t fully fit.

A more accurate statements would be:

Mercedes dominance is ruining Verstappen’s statistics, and therefore his legacy

There's also this possibility:

Mercedes domination is made to look more severe than it is due to overrating of Verstappen.

Should Verstappen outqualify Albon by an average of 8 tenths instead of just 5 tenths? Then maybe he could mix it up with Mercedes every other weekend.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:59 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:58 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:57 am

Russell just outqualified Verstappen in his first weekend driving the Mercedes car, in round 16, while driving in shoes that are too small for him and a seat that doesn’t fully fit.

A more accurate statements would be:

Mercedes dominance is ruining Verstappen’s statistics, and therefore his legacy

There's also this possibility:

Mercedes domination is made to look more severe than it is due to overrating of Verstappen.

Should Verstappen outqualify Albon by an average of 8 tenths instead of just 5 tenths? Then maybe he could mix it up with Mercedes every other weekend.

The amount by which Verstappen out-qualifies Albon is pretty meaningless. That's a reflection of Albon doing a poor job, not that Max is driving at some godlike level.

I don't think Verstappen is overrated. It's also obvious that Mercedes is by far the best car over a number of seasons. However, Hamilton has made it look more so than others might have - he has demonstrated, on numerous occasions through his career, that a driver can make a difference.
Had Verstappen followed the same career path as Hamilton, I suspect we'd see a similar picture. To me, the big difference between the two, is experience.Verstappen is not yet the complete package and I'd use this year's Turkey GP as an apt demonstration of that.
I sincerely hope that the 2022 regulations bring the cars closer together and we can see these two (and I'll add Leclerc, as he is no slouch either) in a genuine contest.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

That's a reflection of Albon doing a poor job, not that Max is driving at some godlike level.

I'm willing to give Max the benefit of the doubt that he's extracting most of the potential from the Red Bull. However, given Vettel's very inconsistent post-Red Bull performances it's legitimate to ask if Red Bull driver have consistently extracted the most out of their cars.

Dominant machinery can merely look like the best car in the hands of good rather than great drivers. Hill in 1995 and Hakkinen in 1998 spring to mind. I have my suspicions about Vettel in 2010 making a dominant car look worse but I'd claim he couldn't have done much better in 2011 2013. However, Webber simply wasn't at the level of either Rosberg or Bottas between 2011-2013 and really should have finished runner up.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:04 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

That's a reflection of Albon doing a poor job, not that Max is driving at some godlike level.

I'm willing to give Max the benefit of the doubt that he's extracting most of the potential from the Red Bull. However, given Vettel's very inconsistent post-Red Bull performances it's legitimate to ask if Red Bull driver have consistently extracted the most out of their cars.

Dominant machinery can merely look like the best car in the hands of good rather than great drivers. Hill in 1995 and Hakkinen in 1998 spring to mind. I have my suspicions about Vettel in 2010 making a dominant car look worse but I'd claim he couldn't have done much better in 2011 2013. However, Webber simply wasn't at the level of either Rosberg or Bottas between 2011-2013 and really should have finished runner up.

Or maybe the Redbull was not so much quicker than the others that recovery was difficult in it a Mercedes can recover back to the podium unlike a Redbull then.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:59 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:58 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:57 am

Russell just outqualified Verstappen in his first weekend driving the Mercedes car, in round 16, while driving in shoes that are too small for him and a seat that doesn’t fully fit.

A more accurate statements would be:

Mercedes dominance is ruining Verstappen’s statistics, and therefore his legacy

There's also this possibility:

Mercedes domination is made to look more severe than it is due to overrating of Verstappen.

Should Verstappen outqualify Albon by an average of 8 tenths instead of just 5 tenths? Then maybe he could mix it up with Mercedes every other weekend.

The amount by which Verstappen out-qualifies Albon is pretty meaningless. That's a reflection of Albon doing a poor job, not that Max is driving at some godlike level.

People used to say the same thing about Alonso and Massa.

“Alonso isn’t that good, Massa is very just bad. Alonso doesn’t have a real top driver like Kimi beside him”

Then we all know what happened in 2014

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:45 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:59 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:58 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:57 am

Russell just outqualified Verstappen in his first weekend driving the Mercedes car, in round 16, while driving in shoes that are too small for him and a seat that doesn’t fully fit.

A more accurate statements would be:

Mercedes dominance is ruining Verstappen’s statistics, and therefore his legacy

There's also this possibility:

Mercedes domination is made to look more severe than it is due to overrating of Verstappen.

Should Verstappen outqualify Albon by an average of 8 tenths instead of just 5 tenths? Then maybe he could mix it up with Mercedes every other weekend.

The amount by which Verstappen out-qualifies Albon is pretty meaningless. That's a reflection of Albon doing a poor job, not that Max is driving at some godlike level.

People used to say the same thing about Alonso and Massa.

“Alonso isn’t that good, Massa is very just bad. Alonso doesn’t have a real top driver like Kimi beside him”

Then we all know what happened in 2014

What happened is that Kimi wasn't a top driver in 2014...

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:00 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:45 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:59 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:58 am

There's also this possibility:

Mercedes domination is made to look more severe than it is due to overrating of Verstappen.

Should Verstappen outqualify Albon by an average of 8 tenths instead of just 5 tenths? Then maybe he could mix it up with Mercedes every other weekend.

The amount by which Verstappen out-qualifies Albon is pretty meaningless. That's a reflection of Albon doing a poor job, not that Max is driving at some godlike level.

People used to say the same thing about Alonso and Massa.

“Alonso isn’t that good, Massa is very just bad. Alonso doesn’t have a real top driver like Kimi beside him”

Then we all know what happened in 2014

What happened is that Kimi wasn't a top driver in 2014...

Funny how Alonso's team mates always seemed to stop being great drivers when they come up against him.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:05 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:00 am

What happened is that Kimi wasn't a top driver in 2014...

Funny how Alonso's team mates always seemed to stop being great drivers when they come up against him.

I hope you realize that I'm an Alonso fan. I'm not trying to cast any shade on him. But do you genuinely think Kimi was a legit top driver in 2014?

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:18 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:05 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:00 am

What happened is that Kimi wasn't a top driver in 2014...

Funny how Alonso's team mates always seemed to stop being great drivers when they come up against him.

I hope you realize that I'm an Alonso fan. I'm not trying to cast any shade on him. But do you genuinely think Kimi was a legit top driver in 2014?

I don't think Kimi has been a top driver since 2006.

The title should be "Is Mercedes ruining Max's legacy?"