Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

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pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:21 pm
The utter certainty some people have in totally theoretical situations never fails to astonish me.
Especially when it's used to try and win an argument. :)
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:31 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

...

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
I'm not a fan of Verstappen, and I personally believe that in the fullness of time it will become clear that Leclerc was the better driver. I agree that there's a very unfortunate side to Max's personality that makes it very difficult to like him as a person, rather than simply as an exciting driver.

But this thread is about Verstappen, and that's why we're talking about him and not Leclerc...
He's kind of growing on me, there is a certain honesty to him that I quite like.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Frenk Biber wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:56 pm
I raised this question to my mate who is a Verstappen fan just like me. Our conclusion: we would be disapointed if he would never be a world champion. However: G. Villeneuve was never a DWC and Hakkinen only twice. If he will get the same legacy as our old heroes we are happy enough, regardless of the amount of silverware. We were the happiest in 2015 and 2016 anyway (I hadn't been as drunk after Barcelona 2016 since Holland - Brazil in de World Cup 2010).
I would say that Hakkinen maximised his career with 2xWDC's while I believe Gilles Villeneuve only raced in F1 for 4 years before he was killed, Verstappen has a long career ahead of him in F1 in particular because of how safe the sport is nowadays, any health issues beside, Rome wasn't built in a day, be patient.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:09 pm
He's kind of growing on me, there is a certain honesty to him that I quite like.
I don't think a willingness to offend people and a lack of care when you do is my definition of honesty. I've seen quite enough of that from the President who 'tells it like it is' for one lifetime.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:17 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:09 pm
He's kind of growing on me, there is a certain honesty to him that I quite like.
I don't think a willingness to offend people and a lack of care when you do is my definition of honesty. I've seen quite enough of that from the President who 'tells it like it is' for one lifetime.
No I don't mean that I'm referring to his lack of politics.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.

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Siao7
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.

Image

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Who's that nobody???

(Just joking of course!)

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Harpo »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:39 am
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.

Image

Image
Who's that nobody???

(Just joking of course!)
The one you can't name near Mr Moss is called Hamilton...
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

Harpo wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:50 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:39 am
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.

Image

Image
Who's that nobody???

(Just joking of course!)
The one you can't name near Mr Moss is called Hamilton...
Touche!!! And it is SIR Moss, not just Mr.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.
He had 16 wins, still good for 17th all-time and the most for a non-WDC. His numbers do give him a legacy, albeit one that doesn't equal how he's rated by more knowledgeable fans.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:52 am

Touche!!! And it is SIR Moss, not just Mr.
Technically, it's Sir Stirling and quite possibly Sir Lewis as well but first he'll need to be forgiven for his activism and tax exile by the British Establishment which might be a stretch.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Harpo »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:52 am
Harpo wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:50 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:39 am
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.

Image

Image
Who's that nobody???

(Just joking of course!)
The one you can't name near Mr Moss is called Hamilton...
Touche!!! And it is SIR Moss, not just Mr.
I'm French and a stubborn republican... :uhoh:
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

Siao7
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

Harpo wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:15 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:52 am
Harpo wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:50 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:39 am
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.

Image

Image
Who's that nobody???

(Just joking of course!)
The one you can't name near Mr Moss is called Hamilton...
Touche!!! And it is SIR Moss, not just Mr.
I'm French and a stubborn republican... :uhoh:
Nice!

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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:00 am
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.
He had 16 wins, still good for 17th all-time and the most for a non-WDC. His numbers do give him a legacy, albeit one that doesn't equal how he's rated by more knowledgeable fans.
Agreed, numbers are relevant. But I consider myself a fan of racing, and a driver who has cemented a "legacy" may be for reasons one can not identify from just numbers. Sir Jack Brabahm, Tazio Nuvolari, and Gilles Villeneuve (just some examples) have devout fans who remember what they did, not their numbers.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:14 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:52 am

Touche!!! And it is SIR Moss, not just Mr.
Technically, it's Sir Stirling and quite possibly Sir Lewis as well but first he'll need to be forgiven for his activism and tax exile by the British Establishment which might be a stretch.
He's on the New Years honour list though, so Sir Lewis soon.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
This all assumes that the Ferrari drivers both performed at the same level as Hamilton. If you think that the Ferrari drivers were operating at a similar level to Bottas things start to come more interesting.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
I think that Ferrari could have won 9 out of the first 18 races without bad fortune/driver errors:-

Bahrain
Baku
Canada
Austria
Spa
Italy
Singapore
Russia
Japan

It didn't need to be as easy as it was for Mercedes.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:34 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
This all assumes that the Ferrari drivers both performed at the same level as Hamilton. If you think that the Ferrari drivers were operating at a similar level to Bottas things start to come more interesting.
Bottas still comfortably beat both Ferrari drivers though, despite the fact that Bottas really isn’t that great.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:41 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
I think that Ferrari could have won 9 out of the first 18 races without bad fortune/driver errors:-

Bahrain
Baku
Canada
Austria
Spa
Italy
Singapore
Russia
Japan

It didn't need to be as easy as it was for Mercedes.
Mercedes had far better race pace than Ferrari around Baku and Japan. It would have been a serious stain on Mercedes if they had failed to win those races.

In Austria, Max was by far the quickest man on track and his terrible start only complicated the race.

Ferrari’s wins at Belgium, Monza and Singapore were done despite Mercedes being the fastest cars on track on race day.

Kercedes had weekends like Australia, China, Spain, France... where the car was superbly dominant all weekend. Ferrari did not have any equivalent to those weekends.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:53 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:34 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
This all assumes that the Ferrari drivers both performed at the same level as Hamilton. If you think that the Ferrari drivers were operating at a similar level to Bottas things start to come more interesting.
Bottas still comfortably beat both Ferrari drivers though, despite the fact that Bottas really isn’t that great.
OK, so take Hamilton and put him in the Ferrari (He is replaced by a Bottas level driver at Merc). I think he takes the title down to at least the penultimate race.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:53 am
Bottas still comfortably beat both Ferrari drivers though, despite the fact that Bottas really isn’t that great.
Bottas is at least as quick as Massa and Kimi. However, using that benchmark might give one the impression that the SF70H was a competitive challenger and SF71H was the fastest car and we can't be having that.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:57 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:41 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
I think that Ferrari could have won 9 out of the first 18 races without bad fortune/driver errors:-

Bahrain
Baku
Canada
Austria
Spa
Italy
Singapore
Russia
Japan

It didn't need to be as easy as it was for Mercedes.
Mercedes had far better race pace than Ferrari around Baku and Japan. It would have been a serious stain on Mercedes if they had failed to win those races.

In Austria, Max was by far the quickest man on track and his terrible start only complicated the race.

Ferrari’s wins at Belgium, Monza and Singapore were done despite Mercedes being the fastest cars on track on race day.

Kercedes had weekends like Australia, China, Spain, France... where the car was superbly dominant all weekend. Ferrari did not have any equivalent to those weekends.
It often doesn't matter if you can't overtake, the Mercedes could not get near a Ferrari down the straights even with DRS and you don't seem to want to factor in what Hamilton might have done in the Ferrari, we've seen Hamilton be able to win races that are not always on but we're left with the restrictions of what the Ferrari drivers did, I would say 3 race wins was a poor return for the car they had.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:34 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
This all assumes that the Ferrari drivers both performed at the same level as Hamilton. If you think that the Ferrari drivers were operating at a similar level to Bottas things start to come more interesting.
This is just ridiculous, Bottas beats everyone else but assume Hamilton in the Ferrari would have done better in the way he could not do vs Vettel at Redbull.

Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:34 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
This all assumes that the Ferrari drivers both performed at the same level as Hamilton. If you think that the Ferrari drivers were operating at a similar level to Bottas things start to come more interesting.
This is just ridiculous, Bottas beats everyone else but assume Hamilton in the Ferrari would have done better in the way he could not do vs Vettel at Redbull.

Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.
It's pretty simple. I believe Hamilton is a better driver than 2019 Vettel or 2019 Leclerc and therefore I believe he would have scored more points than them. He doesn't have to score too many more before he gets into a legit championship fight with a Bottas level driver in the Merc.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.
I think this is a dubious take. I also believe Hamilton is probably overrated based on his time at Mercedes, but the 2020 Turkish Grand Prix is absolutely not a demonstration of that fact.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
This is just ridiculous, Bottas beats everyone else but assume Hamilton in the Ferrari would have done better in the way he could not do vs Vettel at Redbull.
Of course, Hamilton hasn't matured as a driver at all since joining Mercedes! His performance level has risen steadily to meet his 2007 potential, particularly from 2016 onwards.

Hamilton was in title contention in 2010 and 2012 both time hampered by unreliability and being crashed into by Maldonado, Grosjean and Hulkenberg while in strong positions.

Not to mention that Hamilton had Button in his prime as a teammate rather than a declining Webber. Add in the fact, Alonso was also challenging strongly each year and it makes Hamilton's 4th and 5th places look better.
Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.
What sort of nonsense point is this? The point is that once the race came to him, he sprinted away with it. Hamilton kept himself in contention, looked after his tyres and unlocked the performance of the car. A hallmark of an all time great driver.

The number of people still clinging on to Hamilton being flattered by his cars as if he's a gourmet Damon Hill is hilarious. I for one still think Vettel is a great driver despite his struggles over the last 2 years.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:08 pm
Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:34 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
This all assumes that the Ferrari drivers both performed at the same level as Hamilton. If you think that the Ferrari drivers were operating at a similar level to Bottas things start to come more interesting.
This is just ridiculous, Bottas beats everyone else but assume Hamilton in the Ferrari would have done better in the way he could not do vs Vettel at Redbull.

Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.
It's pretty simple. I believe Hamilton is a better driver than 2019 Vettel or 2019 Leclerc and therefore I believe he would have scored more points than them. He doesn't have to score too many more before he gets into a legit championship fight with a Bottas level driver in the Merc.
We have seen Hamilton in the other car vs Vettel and he didn't do better so I wonder where this comes from he has never finished directly behind the guy in the winning car since '08.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:10 am
Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
This is just ridiculous, Bottas beats everyone else but assume Hamilton in the Ferrari would have done better in the way he could not do vs Vettel at Redbull.
Of course, Hamilton hasn't matured as a driver at all since joining Mercedes! His performance level has risen steadily to meet his 2007 potential, particularly from 2016 onwards.

Hamilton was in title contention in 2010 and 2012 both time hampered by unreliability and being crashed into by Maldonado, Grosjean and Hulkenberg while in strong positions.

Not to mention that Hamilton had Button in his prime as a teammate rather than a declining Webber. Add in the fact, Alonso was also challenging strongly each year and it makes Hamilton's 4th and 5th places look better.
Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.
What sort of nonsense point is this? The point is that once the race came to him, he sprinted away with it. Hamilton kept himself in contention, looked after his tyres and unlocked the performance of the car. A hallmark of an all time great driver.

The number of people still clinging on to Hamilton being flattered by his cars as if he's a gourmet Damon Hill is hilarious. I for one still think Vettel is a great driver despite his struggles over the last 2 years.
Hamilton crashed himself out of 2010 title race, also in '12 he had his howlers as well but people focus on the reliability and ignore the fact he's not just consistent.

How does Hamilton being beaten by Alonso make him look better when he was in a better car, Button beat Alonso in the same car.

The improvement since '17 is because he now has Bottas as a team mate who is no competition, had Rosberg stayed that improvement will look different and a quick look at stats would show you that.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:49 pm
Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.
I think this is a dubious take. I also believe Hamilton is probably overrated based on his time at Mercedes, but the 2020 Turkish Grand Prix is absolutely not a demonstration of that fact.
The Mercedes took its time to warm up its tyres so the race was always going to come to him as long as he didn't bin it and he was helped by Stroll's front wing prob.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Asphalt_World »

4 pages is and I still believe a drivers legacy is based on what they do against who they're up against. As mentioned before, Moss's legacy is right up there without a WDC because those in the know saw him as s truly great driver that was beaten by one or two of the greatest ever drivers. Not to mention the WDC that he basically gave away due to being a true sportsman.

Max needs to keep driving fast, remove silly mistakes and perhaps chill out a little.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Asphalt_World »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:13 am
A definition of "legacy" may be subjective. If you go by the numbers, this gent does not have a legacy.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
Hamilton crashed himself out of 2010 title race, also in '12 he had his howlers as well but people focus on the reliability and ignore the fact he's not just consistent.
Nobody was incredibly consistent in either 2010 or 2012. The most costly errors he experienced in those years were completely out of his control with horrorshow pitstops and reliability problems which you should agree impairs one's ability to be consistent.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
How does Hamilton being beaten by Alonso make him look better when he was in a better car, Button beat Alonso in the same car.
Alonso has consistently been the best driver in F1 for most of 2005-2018. The sheer talent of the field in competitive car from 2009-2013 was among the highest in F1 history but Hamilton shared his car with extremely fast world champion teammates.

I'm not going to dignify your Button comment with a rebuttal. Button is a quality driver but was flattered by the points he scored against Alonso and Hamilton.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
The improvement since '17 is because he now has Bottas as a team mate who is no competition, had Rosberg stayed that improvement will look different and a quick look at stats would show you that.
Of course, being dominated by Hamilton proves you are a crap driver despite Hamilton proving himself to at worst being the 2nd best driver since 2007. He's had the toughest collection of teammates since Prost.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:22 pm
The Mercedes took its time to warm up its tyres so the race was always going to come to him as long as he didn't bin it and he was helped by Stroll's front wing prob.
A truly cynical view again. Turkey was a Hamilton masterclass on a day his teammate couldn't stop spinning. Honestly, some people can't bring themselves to give credit when it's due.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:51 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
Hamilton crashed himself out of 2010 title race, also in '12 he had his howlers as well but people focus on the reliability and ignore the fact he's not just consistent.
Nobody was incredibly consistent in either 2010 or 2012. The most costly errors he experienced in those years were completely out of his control with horrorshow pitstops and reliability problems which you should agree impairs one's ability to be consistent.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
How does Hamilton being beaten by Alonso make him look better when he was in a better car, Button beat Alonso in the same car.
Alonso has consistently been the best driver in F1 for most of 2005-2018. The sheer talent of the field in competitive car from 2009-2013 was among the highest in F1 history but Hamilton shared his car with extremely fast world champion teammates.

I'm not going to dignify your Button comment with a rebuttal. Button is a quality driver but was flattered by the points he scored against Alonso and Hamilton.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
The improvement since '17 is because he now has Bottas as a team mate who is no competition, had Rosberg stayed that improvement will look different and a quick look at stats would show you that.
Of course, being dominated by Hamilton proves you are a crap driver despite Hamilton proving himself to at worst being the 2nd best driver since 2007. He's had the toughest collection of teammates since Prost.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:22 pm
The Mercedes took its time to warm up its tyres so the race was always going to come to him as long as he didn't bin it and he was helped by Stroll's front wing prob.
A truly cynical view again. Turkey was a Hamilton masterclass on a day his teammate couldn't stop spinning. Honestly, some people can't bring themselves to give credit when it's due.
This is the problem with some Hamilton fans you explain your position but they read something else and come to a conclusion in their head, I said Bottas is no competition to Hamilton but somehow it means I'm denigrating Bottas.

Also I took no account of Bottas' performance in Turkey as he has never shown anything of note in wet races, you just need to calm down and read to understand, not to reply as I see you deliberately avoided '09-'13.

Second best driver since '07 how exactly? by being in the title fight just twice till '14?

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by JN23 »

Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

JN23 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm
Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.
He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by JN23 »

Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:49 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm
Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.
He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.
I guess we have different views of what constitutes a title fight. If you’re able to win a title going into the final race I’d say that counts.

On a side note, still waiting for you to tell me where I called the Red Bull’s ‘Newey Rocketships’. Didn’t expect you to reply somehow.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:34 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
There were only about 3 races in 2019 where Ferrari actually had the pace to pull away from Mercedes - Bahrain, Austria and Russia. The lead Ferrari car failed in 2 of those 3 races.

At every other weekend, Mercedes had better race pace. That includes Ferrari's 3 race winning streak in Belgium, Italy and Singapore. Mercedes were quicker in all 3 races but Ferrari had track position.

If you think that taking plenty of pole positions is enough to be called a potential WDC car, then I guess you think that the 2002 Williams should have been challenging for the title?
This all assumes that the Ferrari drivers both performed at the same level as Hamilton. If you think that the Ferrari drivers were operating at a similar level to Bottas things start to come more interesting.
This is just ridiculous, Bottas beats everyone else but assume Hamilton in the Ferrari would have done better in the way he could not do vs Vettel at Redbull.

Mercedes has clouded the judgement of Hamilton's performance as a driver, a look at the last race proves this, yes he won the race but not until the race came to him.
How does that not surprise me the lack of credibility given to Hamilton's win in Turkey.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

JN23 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:01 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:49 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm
Hamilton was in title fights in 07, 08 and 10. Probably should have been in 12 but for mechanical issues and pit stop disasters.
He wasn't in the title fight in '10 he crashed out in consecutive races, also in '12 he wasn't the only one who had mechanical issues or pitstop disasters eventual winner Vettel was let down by alternator problems as well and several unjust penalties.
I guess we have different views of what constitutes a title fight. If you’re able to win a title going into the final race I’d say that counts.

On a side note, still waiting for you to tell me where I called the Red Bull’s ‘Newey Rocketships’. Didn’t expect you to reply somehow.
It was a common trope of the period saying you didn't call it that does not detract from it as all we kept hearing was it was all Newey.

Also I wont call needing all the contenders not to score as being in the title fight.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm
This is the problem with some Hamilton fans you explain your position but they read something else and come to a conclusion in their head, I said Bottas is no competition to Hamilton but somehow it means I'm denigrating Bottas.
'No competition' can rarely be construed as anything but a dismissal.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm
...not to reply as I see you deliberately avoided '09-'13.
What did I not reply to? Button was much more consistent in 2011 but that doesn't exclude the fact that Hamilton haemorraged a huge amount of points from reliability while leading or running strongly relative to Button who was rarely in the podium places when his car failed.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:45 pm
Second best driver since '07 how exactly? by being in the title fight just twice till '14?
Hamilton has been consistently there or there abouts and has outperformed extremely fast teammates in the long run in an extremely competitive field where his car was only the best very, very infrequently before 2014. In the timespan I've mentioned, nobody has been as remotely consistent as Hamilton, not Vettel, not Ricciardo, only Alonso has a very good claim for superiority.
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