Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

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shay550
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Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by shay550 »

Today’s race seemed like an open goal for one of the Red Bull boys to win the race especially since there were no safety cars. It’s becoming more and more clearer with each year that rolls by that Lewis in his prime years has been on another level compared to most of his peers.

The question is with each passing year that Merc and Hamilton continue their dominance does it hurt Max Verstappen’s long term legacy in the sport? It seems like he doesn’t maximize his opportunities on many occasions - none clearer than today.

Even if Max starts challenging Lewis next season or the following it won’t ever be treated as a fair comparison as there will always be an excuse of Hamilton’s best years being behind him. So even when he eventually overcomes him in a couple years it will be seen more of a passing of the torch versus Max beating Hamilton in his prime.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Flash2k11 »

Did Fangio ruin Moss' legacy?
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

No it just means that Verstappen is not quite at his peak yet in his maturity, today we saw the old impatience and over aggression that cost him winning the race.

It took Hamilton a long time to get the balance right and given how much better Verstappen has been in that respect the past 2 years I'm confident he will get to the same level eventually although there are no guarantees, Vettel seemed to peak after his first 4 years and then got no better.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

The first thing to get out of the way is - that even though Max is the most promising of his generation - he doesn't have a legacy yet, and is not entitled to one. He probably will get one, but it has to be earned. Leclerc, Norris, Russell all are potential future WDCs, in the Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes stables. They could win as many or more than Max.

Max showed today he is his own worst enemy. Talented, for sure. Probably the greatest natural talent of his direct peers, but his temperament has not been kept in check by Red Bull in the same way that McLaren and Mercedes nurtured Hamilton.

Max should have won today. He was in what was probably the fastest car for the conditions - the Racing Point was stronger when temperatures needed to be put in the tyres at the coldest, but they worked them too hard. He lost a victory he should have taken, because he was impatient and he felt he was entitled to it.

Conversely, Hamilton showed what happens when you combine that innate talent with 14 years of Formula 1 experience. Hamilton had two minor moments in this race where he lost positions, but he knew that in these conditions the time would come again, he knew he didn't to be planted on Perez's gearbox and keep the throttle planted until it was far too late.

Natural talent and raw speed are just one part of a driver's skillset. I have no doubts that Max will pick up the others too, and while he has calmed down since getting physical with Ocon, it's still a demon lurking below the surface.

But to get back to the explicit question you asked. Hamilton beat Max today in an inferior car for the conditions. While one race does not provide enough data to extrapolate the pattern for a season, it is enough to show that in equal machinery, Max would have a fight on his hands and would not find it easy to win.

Hamilton is not suddenly going to slow down next season. And if he stays on into 2022, he's not suddenly going to go from Schumacher 2004 to Schumacher 2010.

And Schumacher himself provides the perfect foil to the question. Schumacher retiring in 2006 didn't ruin Hamilton's legacy. Senna dying in 1994 didn't ruing Schumacher's legacy. If Max wins 4 or more WDCs, he'll have a legacy, just like Prost, Vettel, Fangio, Schumacher and Hamilton.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Verstappen had a poor weekend, but he has been nearly flawless all season. It would take a lot more for me to be convinced he's shown such immaturity that he may struggle to secure a WDC, and, consequently, a legacy, in the future. A brewing frustration from Verstappen over the lack of a competitive car likely resulted in a strong desire to outdrive himself and attempt to cement domination this weekend.

Accolades certainly help cement a driver's legacy, so I would say to an extent, Hamilton's domination is hindering Verstappen's legacy. However, if Hamilton were to retire immediately, then Verstappen will never get the chance to prove himself to be better than Hamilton. If Red Bull and Mercedes are relatively equal in 2022, and Verstappen fairly beats Hamilton, then Verstappen's legacy will be boosted because of Hamilton. Thus, I'm inclined to say that Mercedes is potentially ruining Verstappen's legacy, not Hamilton.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by j man »

I don't think that directly comparing Verstappen and Hamilton in this way is entirely fair given that they are at different stages of their careers. Verstappen's driving right now is reminiscent of Hamilton pre-2012: very fast but impatient, impetuous and with an arrogance that seems to manifest in a disrespect for his competitors. His mistake today looked borne out of a belief that Perez was not his legitimate competition and was no more than a minor obstacle that he shouldn't be wasting his time following.

If Max learns from days like these and uses the experience to improve his game, much like Hamilton did in 2011, then he can go on to match what Lewis has achieved. Remember that he is still only 23, and I don't see a 23 year old Max Verstappen as being any worse a driver than a 23 year old Lewis Hamilton.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Schermerhorn »

I'm yet to be convinced that Max can go toe-to-toe with Hamilton and come out on top.....

Someone refresh my memory but has Max ever beaten Hamilton in such a scenario?

I can recall Vettel overtaking Hamilton more often than Max overtaking Hamilton these last few years....
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Invade »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:32 pm
I'm yet to be convinced that Max can go toe-to-toe with Hamilton and come out on top.....

Someone refresh my memory but has Max ever beaten Hamilton in such a scenario?

I can recall Vettel overtaking Hamilton more often than Max overtaking Hamilton these last few years....
Max did a stellar job on Lewis at the 2019 Brazilian GP. Twice.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

shay550 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:29 pm
Today’s race seemed like an open goal for one of the Red Bull boys to win the race especially since there were no safety cars. It’s becoming more and more clearer with each year that rolls by that Lewis in his prime years has been on another level compared to most of his peers.

The question is with each passing year that Merc and Hamilton continue their dominance does it hurt Max Verstappen’s long term legacy in the sport? It seems like he doesn’t maximize his opportunities on many occasions - none clearer than today.

Even if Max starts challenging Lewis next season or the following it won’t ever be treated as a fair comparison as there will always be an excuse of Hamilton’s best years being behind him. So even when he eventually overcomes him in a couple years it will be seen more of a passing of the torch versus Max beating Hamilton in his prime.
I think he hits his highest possible finish more often than any other driver apart from possibly Hamilton.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Invade »

Ye I don't think there's much question about Max getting close to the maximum out of his situations. It's one bad race. Yes, it was a golden opportunity, but the conditions here were so bizarre that it's a real outlier. Drivers were describing the race as being more icy than wet.

Anyone could have looked a fool today.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Mort Canard »

This seems a fair comparison to the Senna/Schumacher battles. In that case Senna was generally in the inferior car though not at all past the peak of his powers. It would have been good to have Senna back into a top car again to challenge Michael on an equal basis but it was not to be. There will always be a desire that there were more races between the two to get their relative merit as drivers.

Unless Lewis either retires or somehow disappears we will hopefully have much more racing between Lewis and Max.

As to Max's rise to prominence I would say that the Merc dominance does play a part but that Lewis is also legitimately hampering Max's results even if they were in equal cars. We know that either Prost or Senna would have been by far the most dominant driver of their generation without the presence of the other. Either one could likely have achieved Schumacher's kind of driving records if they have not been busy fighting their counterpart.

Max will likely win a lot of races and some championships but he will have to wait for Lewis' star to diminish.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:17 pm
Verstappen had a poor weekend, but he has been nearly flawless all season. It would take a lot more for me to be convinced he's shown such immaturity that he may struggle to secure a WDC, and, consequently, a legacy, in the future. A brewing frustration from Verstappen over the lack of a competitive car likely resulted in a strong desire to outdrive himself and attempt to cement domination this weekend.

Accolades certainly help cement a driver's legacy, so I would say to an extent, Hamilton's domination is hindering Verstappen's legacy. However, if Hamilton were to retire immediately, then Verstappen will never get the chance to prove himself to be better than Hamilton. If Red Bull and Mercedes are relatively equal in 2022, and Verstappen fairly beats Hamilton, then Verstappen's legacy will be boosted because of Hamilton. Thus, I'm inclined to say that Mercedes is potentially ruining Verstappen's legacy, not Hamilton.
You can't play the over driving the car card when he had the fastest car.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:12 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:17 pm
Verstappen had a poor weekend, but he has been nearly flawless all season. It would take a lot more for me to be convinced he's shown such immaturity that he may struggle to secure a WDC, and, consequently, a legacy, in the future. A brewing frustration from Verstappen over the lack of a competitive car likely resulted in a strong desire to outdrive himself and attempt to cement domination this weekend.

Accolades certainly help cement a driver's legacy, so I would say to an extent, Hamilton's domination is hindering Verstappen's legacy. However, if Hamilton were to retire immediately, then Verstappen will never get the chance to prove himself to be better than Hamilton. If Red Bull and Mercedes are relatively equal in 2022, and Verstappen fairly beats Hamilton, then Verstappen's legacy will be boosted because of Hamilton. Thus, I'm inclined to say that Mercedes is potentially ruining Verstappen's legacy, not Hamilton.
You can't play the over driving the car card when he had the fastest car.
That's a slight misinterpretation of what I'm trying to say. I think he was outdriving himself, and not in a good way. With instances like trying to get by Raikkonen in qualifying, and excessively oversteering out of a corner, it appears he had to belief he could go faster than the car was willing to go. In the end, it only cost him further time, as it may have been more beneficial to take a more calm approach to driving, being patient with the car.

I would also hesitate to say the Red Bull was the ultimate fastest car this weekend, but that's a different topic.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:12 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:17 pm
Verstappen had a poor weekend, but he has been nearly flawless all season. It would take a lot more for me to be convinced he's shown such immaturity that he may struggle to secure a WDC, and, consequently, a legacy, in the future. A brewing frustration from Verstappen over the lack of a competitive car likely resulted in a strong desire to outdrive himself and attempt to cement domination this weekend.

Accolades certainly help cement a driver's legacy, so I would say to an extent, Hamilton's domination is hindering Verstappen's legacy. However, if Hamilton were to retire immediately, then Verstappen will never get the chance to prove himself to be better than Hamilton. If Red Bull and Mercedes are relatively equal in 2022, and Verstappen fairly beats Hamilton, then Verstappen's legacy will be boosted because of Hamilton. Thus, I'm inclined to say that Mercedes is potentially ruining Verstappen's legacy, not Hamilton.
You can't play the over driving the car card when he had the fastest car.
That's a slight misinterpretation of what I'm trying to say. I think he was outdriving himself, and not in a good way. With instances like trying to get by Raikkonen in qualifying, and excessively oversteering out of a corner, it appears he had to belief he could go faster than the car was willing to go. In the end, it only cost him further time, as it may have been more beneficial to take a more calm approach to driving, being patient with the car.

I would also hesitate to say the Red Bull was the ultimate fastest car this weekend, but that's a different topic.
I believe Albon was catching the Racing Points before he spun, at the point of the race were the Red Bull was the fastest car judging by Albon's speed as well, Verstappen spun, damaged his tyre and blew it.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

I don't think Hamilton is ruining Max's legacy, but he's certainly deflating Max's hype.

Today, Max lost to Lewis with a better car. That isn't good for the argument that he's the superior driver, but it also doesn't 'ruin' his legacy. It's just one more piece of his story, whatever that happens to be.

Max has yet to have a real title shot against Lewis. If he wins at his first opportunity, he'll be on the same path as Alonso was against Schumacher, and I don't think anyone considers Alonso's legacy tainted by starting his career while Michael was dominant. Vettel (and Red Bull) may have ruined Alonso's legacy, but not Schumacher.

Similarly, the only real threat to Max's legacy is if one of his weaker peers gets into a superior car and cuts out what should be the prime of his career. Lewis is part of a different generation.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Max has two main weaknesses. A lack of patience and a tendency to wallow in negativity. The lack of patience was evident today, and holding onto negativity was evident after qualifying where he was inexplicably crestfallen about his P2 instead of sensing a great opportunity.

Fortunately, those weaknesses are not barriers to greatness. Both have been levelled at Hamilton at various times as well as a fair few other greats. On raw pace I think he's the quickest of the emerging pack although Charles is probably not far off.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Badgeronimous »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:32 am
Max has two main weaknesses. A lack of patience and a tendency to wallow in negativity. The lack of patience was evident today, and holding onto negativity was evident after qualifying where he was inexplicably crestfallen about his P2 instead of sensing a great opportunity.

Fortunately, those weaknesses are not barriers to greatness. Both have been levelled at Hamilton at various times as well as a fair few other greats. On raw pace I think he's the quickest of the emerging pack although Charles is probably not far off.
Hamilton has definitely been guilty of both in his younger days. Even up until maybe 2015 I would say his main weakness was when things weren't going his way and it got to him - he used to have a capability of going in a sulk and just attracting misfortune for 2-3 races. However since turning 30 he has really matured as a driver - he is very complete now.

I rate both Hamilton and Verstappen in the same bracket, but today highlighted how far Max still has to go mentally. Verstappen was the fastest driver in Turkey, but for a lack of patience and race management he threw away what was a likely win. Hamilton, without being spectacular, gained a very comfortable win through managing his race patiently and making his move when conditions were right. Master class in race management. However would Max have acted differently if there was a championship at stake?

To be honest, since 2014, it has been very hard for anyone not driving a Mercedes to build a legacy. Vettel could of had a championship, and not doing so detracted from his legacy, but that has been about it in terms of opportunity these last 7 seasons. Red Bull have always been there or there abouts, but Max hasn't thrown much away these last 2 seasons - just he has no chance of winning or contending for a championship as things stand - no matter how well he drives.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Invade »

Maybe Mercedes will ruin Max's (potential) legacy. Perhaps their general dominance will extend beyond Hamilton's time in the sport.

Right now, Max is unfulfilled hype not mainly because of Hamilton but mainly because of dominant Merc cars. What I'm saying is that we'd probably be having a different discussion if Hamilton and Verstappen were competing consistently in closely matched conditions. In such conditions, Verstappen could have beaten Hamilton in 2019 and in 2020.


Max might not always be the best thing going. He's in a sweet spot right now in terms of having generally reached his prime and being the premier talent beyond everyone but Hamilton, but he's in the distant second best car. But! ... there's a young generation with him who are currently ascending and before we know it Leclerc and maybe someone else could be on Max's level, and with his window of superiority closed it might not be enough to be merely competitive to guarantee him titles. The following aphorism is somewhat hyperbole, no doubt, but: timing is everything.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

When Hamilton turned up in the sport he made a bigger splash than Max. He beat Alonso in equal machinery, he put it on the podium for his first nine races, he almost won in his first season losing only due to two obscure incidences (China pitlane incident and his software issue in Brazil)

He then became the youngest WDC in an inferior car the following year (his team mate only managing 7th in the WDC) - with 9 wins from 35 races (> 25%), and a greater than 50% podium strike rate, he was already showing the potential that he has since delivered, but it was still only promised potential at that point.

What happened then was a regulation change that Adrian Newey aced, and suddenly Vettel was the driver with the equipment to lead. Also a promising talent, although more difficult to place as his direct competition was not in Alonso's league.

It would have be crazy to gave suggested that Red Bull and / or Vettel were ruining Hamilton's legacy back then. A legacy is not something someone is entitled to. A legacy is earned. Max is the same age that Hamilton was in 2007. He still has however many seasons Hamilton races for left in his career, so whatever Hamilton achieves it is possible for Max to as well. Hamilton spent five seasons in the wilderness where he had a car deficit (2012 had moments where the car was on the level of the red bull but it wasn't for enough of the season, kind of similar to how the Max's Red Bull has had its nose in front for some races)

Schumacher also had a similar period, between Benetton and the Ferrari domination. If Max's current red bull seat turns out to be his wilderness years then he can consider himself very lucky to have such a competitive "lesser" car.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Invade »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:49 am
When Hamilton turned up in the sport he made a bigger splash than Max. He beat Alonso in equal machinery, he put it on the podium for his first nine races, he almost won in his first season losing only due to two obscure incidences (China pitlane incident and his software issue in Brazil)

He then became the youngest WDC in an inferior car the following year (his team mate only managing 7th in the WDC) - with 9 wins from 35 races (> 25%), and a greater than 50% podium strike rate, he was already showing the potential that he has since delivered, but it was still only promised potential at that point.

What happened then was a regulation change that Adrian Newey aced, and suddenly Vettel was the driver with the equipment to lead. Also a promising talent, although more difficult to place as his direct competition was not in Alonso's league.

It would have be crazy to gave suggested that Red Bull and / or Vettel were ruining Hamilton's legacy back then. A legacy is not something someone is entitled to. A legacy is earned. Max is the same age that Hamilton was in 2007. He still has however many seasons Hamilton races for left in his career, so whatever Hamilton achieves it is possible for Max to as well. Hamilton spent five seasons in the wilderness where he had a car deficit (2012 had moments where the car was on the level of the red bull but it wasn't for enough of the season, kind of similar to how the Max's Red Bull has had its nose in front for some races)

Schumacher also had a similar period, between Benetton and the Ferrari domination. If Max's current red bull seat turns out to be his wilderness years then he can consider himself very lucky to have such a competitive "lesser" car.
All good, but don't you think the 2012 McLaren was a serious title contender ruined by operational incompetence? I think it was far more of a threat than Verstappen's Red Bulls have been regarding pure car performance, but maybe my memory is just off.

You nicely contexualised the sort of impact Lewis had - he came into the sport with a real bang. Yet I always get the general impression that the perception toward Hamilton and his precociousness and talent is lukewarm in comparison to the valorised perspectives on the likes of Senna and Schumacher. People talk about Verstappen putting in Senna- or Schumacher-esque, but not Hamilton-esque, performances. I don't recall constant gushing about "genius" when Hamilton put in the ultimate qualifying masterclass throughout the entire qualifying session in Styria.

In terms of perception, it feels like Verstappen has already earned a lot of his legacy. He is already deemed something extra out-there.

I see talk here and there that Max and Charles will define the 2020s.


But what if it's still Lewis... ;)

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:49 am
When Hamilton turned up in the sport he made a bigger splash than Max. He beat Alonso in equal machinery, he put it on the podium for his first nine races, he almost won in his first season losing only due to two obscure incidences (China pitlane incident and his software issue in Brazil)

He then became the youngest WDC in an inferior car the following year (his team mate only managing 7th in the WDC) - with 9 wins from 35 races (> 25%), and a greater than 50% podium strike rate, he was already showing the potential that he has since delivered, but it was still only promised potential at that point.

What happened then was a regulation change that Adrian Newey aced, and suddenly Vettel was the driver with the equipment to lead. Also a promising talent, although more difficult to place as his direct competition was not in Alonso's league.

It would have be crazy to gave suggested that Red Bull and / or Vettel were ruining Hamilton's legacy back then. A legacy is not something someone is entitled to. A legacy is earned. Max is the same age that Hamilton was in 2007. He still has however many seasons Hamilton races for left in his career, so whatever Hamilton achieves it is possible for Max to as well. Hamilton spent five seasons in the wilderness where he had a car deficit (2012 had moments where the car was on the level of the red bull but it wasn't for enough of the season, kind of similar to how the Max's Red Bull has had its nose in front for some races)

Schumacher also had a similar period, between Benetton and the Ferrari domination. If Max's current red bull seat turns out to be his wilderness years then he can consider himself very lucky to have such a competitive "lesser" car.
All good, but don't you think the 2012 McLaren was a serious title contender ruined by operational incompetence? I think it was far more of a threat than Verstappen's Red Bulls have been regarding pure car performance, but maybe my memory is just off.

You nicely contexualised the sort of impact Lewis had - he came into the sport with a real bang. Yet I always get the general impression that the perception toward Hamilton and his precociousness and talent is lukewarm in comparison to the valorised perspectives on the likes of Senna and Schumacher. People talk about Verstappen putting in Senna- or Schumacher-esque, but not Hamilton-esque, performances. I don't recall constant gushing about "genius" when Hamilton put in the ultimate qualifying masterclass throughout the entire qualifying session in Styria.

In terms of perception, it feels like Verstappen has already earned a lot of his legacy. He is already deemed something extra out-there.

I see talk here and there that Max and Charles will define the 2020s.


But what if it's still Lewis... ;)
Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Invade »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:58 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:49 am
When Hamilton turned up in the sport he made a bigger splash than Max. He beat Alonso in equal machinery, he put it on the podium for his first nine races, he almost won in his first season losing only due to two obscure incidences (China pitlane incident and his software issue in Brazil)

He then became the youngest WDC in an inferior car the following year (his team mate only managing 7th in the WDC) - with 9 wins from 35 races (> 25%), and a greater than 50% podium strike rate, he was already showing the potential that he has since delivered, but it was still only promised potential at that point.

What happened then was a regulation change that Adrian Newey aced, and suddenly Vettel was the driver with the equipment to lead. Also a promising talent, although more difficult to place as his direct competition was not in Alonso's league.

It would have be crazy to gave suggested that Red Bull and / or Vettel were ruining Hamilton's legacy back then. A legacy is not something someone is entitled to. A legacy is earned. Max is the same age that Hamilton was in 2007. He still has however many seasons Hamilton races for left in his career, so whatever Hamilton achieves it is possible for Max to as well. Hamilton spent five seasons in the wilderness where he had a car deficit (2012 had moments where the car was on the level of the red bull but it wasn't for enough of the season, kind of similar to how the Max's Red Bull has had its nose in front for some races)

Schumacher also had a similar period, between Benetton and the Ferrari domination. If Max's current red bull seat turns out to be his wilderness years then he can consider himself very lucky to have such a competitive "lesser" car.
All good, but don't you think the 2012 McLaren was a serious title contender ruined by operational incompetence? I think it was far more of a threat than Verstappen's Red Bulls have been regarding pure car performance, but maybe my memory is just off.

You nicely contexualised the sort of impact Lewis had - he came into the sport with a real bang. Yet I always get the general impression that the perception toward Hamilton and his precociousness and talent is lukewarm in comparison to the valorised perspectives on the likes of Senna and Schumacher. People talk about Verstappen putting in Senna- or Schumacher-esque, but not Hamilton-esque, performances. I don't recall constant gushing about "genius" when Hamilton put in the ultimate qualifying masterclass throughout the entire qualifying session in Styria.

In terms of perception, it feels like Verstappen has already earned a lot of his legacy. He is already deemed something extra out-there.

I see talk here and there that Max and Charles will define the 2020s.


But what if it's still Lewis... ;)
Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.
That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:58 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:49 am
When Hamilton turned up in the sport he made a bigger splash than Max. He beat Alonso in equal machinery, he put it on the podium for his first nine races, he almost won in his first season losing only due to two obscure incidences (China pitlane incident and his software issue in Brazil)

He then became the youngest WDC in an inferior car the following year (his team mate only managing 7th in the WDC) - with 9 wins from 35 races (> 25%), and a greater than 50% podium strike rate, he was already showing the potential that he has since delivered, but it was still only promised potential at that point.

What happened then was a regulation change that Adrian Newey aced, and suddenly Vettel was the driver with the equipment to lead. Also a promising talent, although more difficult to place as his direct competition was not in Alonso's league.

It would have be crazy to gave suggested that Red Bull and / or Vettel were ruining Hamilton's legacy back then. A legacy is not something someone is entitled to. A legacy is earned. Max is the same age that Hamilton was in 2007. He still has however many seasons Hamilton races for left in his career, so whatever Hamilton achieves it is possible for Max to as well. Hamilton spent five seasons in the wilderness where he had a car deficit (2012 had moments where the car was on the level of the red bull but it wasn't for enough of the season, kind of similar to how the Max's Red Bull has had its nose in front for some races)

Schumacher also had a similar period, between Benetton and the Ferrari domination. If Max's current red bull seat turns out to be his wilderness years then he can consider himself very lucky to have such a competitive "lesser" car.
All good, but don't you think the 2012 McLaren was a serious title contender ruined by operational incompetence? I think it was far more of a threat than Verstappen's Red Bulls have been regarding pure car performance, but maybe my memory is just off.

You nicely contexualised the sort of impact Lewis had - he came into the sport with a real bang. Yet I always get the general impression that the perception toward Hamilton and his precociousness and talent is lukewarm in comparison to the valorised perspectives on the likes of Senna and Schumacher. People talk about Verstappen putting in Senna- or Schumacher-esque, but not Hamilton-esque, performances. I don't recall constant gushing about "genius" when Hamilton put in the ultimate qualifying masterclass throughout the entire qualifying session in Styria.

In terms of perception, it feels like Verstappen has already earned a lot of his legacy. He is already deemed something extra out-there.

I see talk here and there that Max and Charles will define the 2020s.


But what if it's still Lewis... ;)
Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.
That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )
Hamilton was talked of as being Senna esque prior to winning a title - he had the same hype as Max, and it was equally just as much potential then as it is for Max now. It was clear Hamilton had the greatest natural talent of his peers - but just like Max he lacked elements of refinement.

The reason people hark back to Senna is because of the indelible legacy he left on the sport as being this embodiment of pure natural talent. He's the natural reference point, despite there being 5 drivers with more titles.

Max seems to stand out at the moment as the greatest natural talent of the young drivers. He is also the most ruthless, the biggest ego with the most confidence and it's very divisive, but it is backed up with the results he achieves. However it is entirely possible that the inverse of the thread's title is true. Hamilton may be helping to establish Max's legacy. Max currently doesn't have a car to compete for the WDC, so he doesn't have to make excuses for not doing so. He's been less of a thread to Hamilton's title than Bottas was, but he is a thread to Bottas's second place. That no one else is even close, is giving him a legacy because everyone can fantasise about what might be if the Red Bull could compete every race against the Merc, but we will never know.

In a direct head to head, Max would suddenly be expected to win, and if he failed it would be like this weekend. If he went head to head with Hamilton and failed to win in competitive machinery his legacy would be blunted compared to the one he has as being perceived as "the man who would be WDC if he was in a Merc" that he has now.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:48 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:58 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:49 am
When Hamilton turned up in the sport he made a bigger splash than Max. He beat Alonso in equal machinery, he put it on the podium for his first nine races, he almost won in his first season losing only due to two obscure incidences (China pitlane incident and his software issue in Brazil)

He then became the youngest WDC in an inferior car the following year (his team mate only managing 7th in the WDC) - with 9 wins from 35 races (> 25%), and a greater than 50% podium strike rate, he was already showing the potential that he has since delivered, but it was still only promised potential at that point.

What happened then was a regulation change that Adrian Newey aced, and suddenly Vettel was the driver with the equipment to lead. Also a promising talent, although more difficult to place as his direct competition was not in Alonso's league.

It would have be crazy to gave suggested that Red Bull and / or Vettel were ruining Hamilton's legacy back then. A legacy is not something someone is entitled to. A legacy is earned. Max is the same age that Hamilton was in 2007. He still has however many seasons Hamilton races for left in his career, so whatever Hamilton achieves it is possible for Max to as well. Hamilton spent five seasons in the wilderness where he had a car deficit (2012 had moments where the car was on the level of the red bull but it wasn't for enough of the season, kind of similar to how the Max's Red Bull has had its nose in front for some races)

Schumacher also had a similar period, between Benetton and the Ferrari domination. If Max's current red bull seat turns out to be his wilderness years then he can consider himself very lucky to have such a competitive "lesser" car.
All good, but don't you think the 2012 McLaren was a serious title contender ruined by operational incompetence? I think it was far more of a threat than Verstappen's Red Bulls have been regarding pure car performance, but maybe my memory is just off.

You nicely contexualised the sort of impact Lewis had - he came into the sport with a real bang. Yet I always get the general impression that the perception toward Hamilton and his precociousness and talent is lukewarm in comparison to the valorised perspectives on the likes of Senna and Schumacher. People talk about Verstappen putting in Senna- or Schumacher-esque, but not Hamilton-esque, performances. I don't recall constant gushing about "genius" when Hamilton put in the ultimate qualifying masterclass throughout the entire qualifying session in Styria.

In terms of perception, it feels like Verstappen has already earned a lot of his legacy. He is already deemed something extra out-there.

I see talk here and there that Max and Charles will define the 2020s.


But what if it's still Lewis... ;)
Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.
That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )
Hamilton was talked of as being Senna esque prior to winning a title - he had the same hype as Max, and it was equally just as much potential then as it is for Max now. It was clear Hamilton had the greatest natural talent of his peers - but just like Max he lacked elements of refinement.

The reason people hark back to Senna is because of the indelible legacy he left on the sport as being this embodiment of pure natural talent. He's the natural reference point, despite there being 5 drivers with more titles.

Max seems to stand out at the moment as the greatest natural talent of the young drivers. He is also the most ruthless, the biggest ego with the most confidence and it's very divisive, but it is backed up with the results he achieves. However it is entirely possible that the inverse of the thread's title is true. Hamilton may be helping to establish Max's legacy. Max currently doesn't have a car to compete for the WDC, so he doesn't have to make excuses for not doing so. He's been less of a thread to Hamilton's title than Bottas was, but he is a thread to Bottas's second place. That no one else is even close, is giving him a legacy because everyone can fantasise about what might be if the Red Bull could compete every race against the Merc, but we will never know.

In a direct head to head, Max would suddenly be expected to win, and if he failed it would be like this weekend. If he went head to head with Hamilton and failed to win in competitive machinery his legacy would be blunted compared to the one he has as being perceived as "the man who would be WDC if he was in a Merc" that he has now.
The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Asphalt_World »

Sterling Moss' legacy was simply massive because time and time again, he drove brilliantly. Not winning a WDC didn't hold his reputation back. Max's problem at the moment is himself. He gets rave reviews because he makes gutsy passes and can clearly drive very fast, but regardless of winning races, let alone championships, I don't regard him as someone that has gone through an entire season without having a number of races where's he's thrown things away, got into a temper tantrum or whatever. He's got time to pull this around and I hope he matures into the kind of driver a lot of us feel he could be.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:03 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:48 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:58 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:11 am


All good, but don't you think the 2012 McLaren was a serious title contender ruined by operational incompetence? I think it was far more of a threat than Verstappen's Red Bulls have been regarding pure car performance, but maybe my memory is just off.

You nicely contexualised the sort of impact Lewis had - he came into the sport with a real bang. Yet I always get the general impression that the perception toward Hamilton and his precociousness and talent is lukewarm in comparison to the valorised perspectives on the likes of Senna and Schumacher. People talk about Verstappen putting in Senna- or Schumacher-esque, but not Hamilton-esque, performances. I don't recall constant gushing about "genius" when Hamilton put in the ultimate qualifying masterclass throughout the entire qualifying session in Styria.

In terms of perception, it feels like Verstappen has already earned a lot of his legacy. He is already deemed something extra out-there.

I see talk here and there that Max and Charles will define the 2020s.


But what if it's still Lewis... ;)
Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.
That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )
Hamilton was talked of as being Senna esque prior to winning a title - he had the same hype as Max, and it was equally just as much potential then as it is for Max now. It was clear Hamilton had the greatest natural talent of his peers - but just like Max he lacked elements of refinement.

The reason people hark back to Senna is because of the indelible legacy he left on the sport as being this embodiment of pure natural talent. He's the natural reference point, despite there being 5 drivers with more titles.

Max seems to stand out at the moment as the greatest natural talent of the young drivers. He is also the most ruthless, the biggest ego with the most confidence and it's very divisive, but it is backed up with the results he achieves. However it is entirely possible that the inverse of the thread's title is true. Hamilton may be helping to establish Max's legacy. Max currently doesn't have a car to compete for the WDC, so he doesn't have to make excuses for not doing so. He's been less of a thread to Hamilton's title than Bottas was, but he is a thread to Bottas's second place. That no one else is even close, is giving him a legacy because everyone can fantasise about what might be if the Red Bull could compete every race against the Merc, but we will never know.

In a direct head to head, Max would suddenly be expected to win, and if he failed it would be like this weekend. If he went head to head with Hamilton and failed to win in competitive machinery his legacy would be blunted compared to the one he has as being perceived as "the man who would be WDC if he was in a Merc" that he has now.
The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now.
Unlikely that the driver that finished behind Ricciardo for their first two seasons together would win "at least 3" from the outset.

Hamilton did not get in a Mercedes until his 7th season in Formula 1.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:43 am
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:32 am
Max has two main weaknesses. A lack of patience and a tendency to wallow in negativity. The lack of patience was evident today, and holding onto negativity was evident after qualifying where he was inexplicably crestfallen about his P2 instead of sensing a great opportunity.

Fortunately, those weaknesses are not barriers to greatness. Both have been levelled at Hamilton at various times as well as a fair few other greats. On raw pace I think he's the quickest of the emerging pack although Charles is probably not far off.
Hamilton has definitely been guilty of both in his younger days. Even up until maybe 2015 I would say his main weakness was when things weren't going his way and it got to him - he used to have a capability of going in a sulk and just attracting misfortune for 2-3 races. However since turning 30 he has really matured as a driver - he is very complete now.

I rate both Hamilton and Verstappen in the same bracket, but today highlighted how far Max still has to go mentally. Verstappen was the fastest driver in Turkey, but for a lack of patience and race management he threw away what was a likely win. Hamilton, without being spectacular, gained a very comfortable win through managing his race patiently and making his move when conditions were right. Master class in race management. However would Max have acted differently if there was a championship at stake?

To be honest, since 2014, it has been very hard for anyone not driving a Mercedes to build a legacy. Vettel could of had a championship, and not doing so detracted from his legacy, but that has been about it in terms of opportunity these last 7 seasons. Red Bull have always been there or there abouts, but Max hasn't thrown much away these last 2 seasons - just he has no chance of winning or contending for a championship as things stand - no matter how well he drives.
2015 was a different scenario were you had a teammate playing political games, if you are considering this to be immaturity then how mature was the Prost/Senna partnership?
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:03 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:48 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:58 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:11 am


All good, but don't you think the 2012 McLaren was a serious title contender ruined by operational incompetence? I think it was far more of a threat than Verstappen's Red Bulls have been regarding pure car performance, but maybe my memory is just off.

You nicely contexualised the sort of impact Lewis had - he came into the sport with a real bang. Yet I always get the general impression that the perception toward Hamilton and his precociousness and talent is lukewarm in comparison to the valorised perspectives on the likes of Senna and Schumacher. People talk about Verstappen putting in Senna- or Schumacher-esque, but not Hamilton-esque, performances. I don't recall constant gushing about "genius" when Hamilton put in the ultimate qualifying masterclass throughout the entire qualifying session in Styria.

In terms of perception, it feels like Verstappen has already earned a lot of his legacy. He is already deemed something extra out-there.

I see talk here and there that Max and Charles will define the 2020s.


But what if it's still Lewis... ;)
Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.
That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )
Hamilton was talked of as being Senna esque prior to winning a title - he had the same hype as Max, and it was equally just as much potential then as it is for Max now. It was clear Hamilton had the greatest natural talent of his peers - but just like Max he lacked elements of refinement.

The reason people hark back to Senna is because of the indelible legacy he left on the sport as being this embodiment of pure natural talent. He's the natural reference point, despite there being 5 drivers with more titles.

Max seems to stand out at the moment as the greatest natural talent of the young drivers. He is also the most ruthless, the biggest ego with the most confidence and it's very divisive, but it is backed up with the results he achieves. However it is entirely possible that the inverse of the thread's title is true. Hamilton may be helping to establish Max's legacy. Max currently doesn't have a car to compete for the WDC, so he doesn't have to make excuses for not doing so. He's been less of a thread to Hamilton's title than Bottas was, but he is a thread to Bottas's second place. That no one else is even close, is giving him a legacy because everyone can fantasise about what might be if the Red Bull could compete every race against the Merc, but we will never know.

In a direct head to head, Max would suddenly be expected to win, and if he failed it would be like this weekend. If he went head to head with Hamilton and failed to win in competitive machinery his legacy would be blunted compared to the one he has as being perceived as "the man who would be WDC if he was in a Merc" that he has now.
The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now.
Hamilton didn't start at Mercedes.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Option or Prime »

Verstappen has been in F1 6 years now, after the same time Hamilton had won a world title nearly two. He then started his wining run with Mercedes.
For me there is something missing with Max Verstappen, he should have won more races in my view. You can say its the car but look at what Schumacher did, he guided Ferrari to victories by developing the car. Hamilton has done the same. In an interview with DC he explained how the current car is set up to cope with the driving temperatures of the calendar hence its non performance. Despite that he won.

I just see MV expecting to be given a winning car and complaining when it goes wrong. He should have won in Turkey.
When Hamilton realised he wasn't winning he took a gamble, much like DR has with McLaren. I don't see that in Max. Every year Hamilton stays in F1 is another year without a WDC so yes I think the thread title is spot on. Lets be realistic are we going to say that Leclerc will not win a title or two in the next decade?

Whats more who is to say another prodigious talent isn't just round the corner. I don't see MV automatically nailed on for titles at all.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Badgeronimous »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:55 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:43 am
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:32 am
Max has two main weaknesses. A lack of patience and a tendency to wallow in negativity. The lack of patience was evident today, and holding onto negativity was evident after qualifying where he was inexplicably crestfallen about his P2 instead of sensing a great opportunity.

Fortunately, those weaknesses are not barriers to greatness. Both have been levelled at Hamilton at various times as well as a fair few other greats. On raw pace I think he's the quickest of the emerging pack although Charles is probably not far off.
Hamilton has definitely been guilty of both in his younger days. Even up until maybe 2015 I would say his main weakness was when things weren't going his way and it got to him - he used to have a capability of going in a sulk and just attracting misfortune for 2-3 races. However since turning 30 he has really matured as a driver - he is very complete now.

I rate both Hamilton and Verstappen in the same bracket, but today highlighted how far Max still has to go mentally. Verstappen was the fastest driver in Turkey, but for a lack of patience and race management he threw away what was a likely win. Hamilton, without being spectacular, gained a very comfortable win through managing his race patiently and making his move when conditions were right. Master class in race management. However would Max have acted differently if there was a championship at stake?

To be honest, since 2014, it has been very hard for anyone not driving a Mercedes to build a legacy. Vettel could of had a championship, and not doing so detracted from his legacy, but that has been about it in terms of opportunity these last 7 seasons. Red Bull have always been there or there abouts, but Max hasn't thrown much away these last 2 seasons - just he has no chance of winning or contending for a championship as things stand - no matter how well he drives.
2015 was a different scenario were you had a teammate playing political games, if you are considering this to be immaturity then how mature was the Prost/Senna partnership?
Do you think Hamilton wasn't an equal partner in any political games going on?

However it isn't really my point. For the first part of his career, Lewis Hamilton often went on a bit of a downer when things weren't going his way. His performance dropped off and he seemed to be a magnet for incidents and drama.

I don't see that weakness in the last 4-5 years.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Invade »

Option or Prime wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:23 pm
Verstappen has been in F1 6 years now, after the same time Hamilton had won a world title nearly two. He then started his wining run with Mercedes.
For me there is something missing with Max Verstappen, he should have won more races in my view. You can say its the car but look at what Schumacher did, he guided Ferrari to victories by developing the car. Hamilton has done the same. In an interview with DC he explained how the current car is set up to cope with the driving temperatures of the calendar hence its non performance. Despite that he won.

I just see MV expecting to be given a winning car and complaining when it goes wrong. He should have won in Turkey.
When Hamilton realised he wasn't winning he took a gamble, much like DR has with McLaren. I don't see that in Max. Every year Hamilton stays in F1 is another year without a WDC so yes I think the thread title is spot on. Lets be realistic are we going to say that Leclerc will not win a title or two in the next decade?

Whats more who is to say another prodigious talent isn't just round the corner. I don't see MV automatically nailed on for titles at all.
And so by the time Hamilton is done, there is no guarantee that Verstappen will be the shiniest newest thing. Leclerc and maybe one other from the current young gen might be in a similar bracket (can argue Leclerc already is) and, who knows, a new megastar may be on the horizon (Pourchaire??)...

If the Merc-Hamilton Juggernaut keeps rolling till 2023-24 or so then who knows how the landscape will look. Maybe Russell slots in and excels bigtime at Mercedes and they have their successor and Leclerc is untouchable at Ferrari. It could all take a big psychological toll on Verstappen, as he'd be in F1 for 9-10 years without a title for all the hype.

Of course, I'm projecting very fancifully here.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:47 pm
Do you think Hamilton wasn't an equal partner in any political games going on?

However it isn't really my point. For the first part of his career, Lewis Hamilton often went on a bit of a downer when things weren't going his way. His performance dropped off and he seemed to be a magnet for incidents and drama.

I don't see that weakness in the last 4-5 years.
Hamilton has always been one for interpersonal drama with a competitive teammate. First Alonso then Button then Rosberg. Although I consider him superior to Prost, Senna and Schumacher in that department given he has never punted his title rival off the road to win. He showed the world that he wouldn't cross that line in Abu Dhabi in 2016 when he could have pulled a similar but far more difficult stunt.

I still think Hamilton still has an issue maintaining peak form. His lack of a long win streak, especially while being teamed with Bottas is quite unusual. In a very Prostian way, he seems to ever so slightly relax after a few race wins that leaves him open for his streak being broken by Bottas or Max. If it is conscious pragmatism and its contributed to his phenomenal reliability, he deserves even more credit!
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Rockie
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:51 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:03 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:48 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:58 am

Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.
That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )
Hamilton was talked of as being Senna esque prior to winning a title - he had the same hype as Max, and it was equally just as much potential then as it is for Max now. It was clear Hamilton had the greatest natural talent of his peers - but just like Max he lacked elements of refinement.

The reason people hark back to Senna is because of the indelible legacy he left on the sport as being this embodiment of pure natural talent. He's the natural reference point, despite there being 5 drivers with more titles.

Max seems to stand out at the moment as the greatest natural talent of the young drivers. He is also the most ruthless, the biggest ego with the most confidence and it's very divisive, but it is backed up with the results he achieves. However it is entirely possible that the inverse of the thread's title is true. Hamilton may be helping to establish Max's legacy. Max currently doesn't have a car to compete for the WDC, so he doesn't have to make excuses for not doing so. He's been less of a thread to Hamilton's title than Bottas was, but he is a thread to Bottas's second place. That no one else is even close, is giving him a legacy because everyone can fantasise about what might be if the Red Bull could compete every race against the Merc, but we will never know.

In a direct head to head, Max would suddenly be expected to win, and if he failed it would be like this weekend. If he went head to head with Hamilton and failed to win in competitive machinery his legacy would be blunted compared to the one he has as being perceived as "the man who would be WDC if he was in a Merc" that he has now.
The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now.
Unlikely that the driver that finished behind Ricciardo for their first two seasons together would win "at least 3" from the outset.

Hamilton did not get in a Mercedes until his 7th season in Formula 1.
Hamilton started his F1 career in a Mclaren-Mercedes a car that was able to win the WDC, why do I need to explain what I mean by Verstappen starting his F1 career in a Mercedes car that can win the WDC?

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:10 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:03 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:48 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:11 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:58 am

Getting into the finer details of why McLaren failed to challenge in the 2012 season isn't really relevant to the thread. Between its reliability, decision making process and in season development mistakes, McLaren as an operation were not at a championship level in 2012, and their subsequent decline in 2013 onwards shows the rot that had taken hold. If Mercedes were as sloppy as 2012 McLaren, their car would not have looked dominant this season.

The point is that any drivers in that team would have suffered the same fate as Hamilton. He lost 2 wins due to reliability (Singapore/Abu Dhabi), and probably lost one in Spain due to his team underfueling his car in qualifying. The team took a development wrong turn mid season, and Hamilton had 6 retirements vs 2 for Vettel/Alonso. The car may have had the raw pace to compete with Red Bull for much of the season, but it was unreliable and the team was lacking in competence, and these variables are just as critical to be able to compete.
That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )
Hamilton was talked of as being Senna esque prior to winning a title - he had the same hype as Max, and it was equally just as much potential then as it is for Max now. It was clear Hamilton had the greatest natural talent of his peers - but just like Max he lacked elements of refinement.

The reason people hark back to Senna is because of the indelible legacy he left on the sport as being this embodiment of pure natural talent. He's the natural reference point, despite there being 5 drivers with more titles.

Max seems to stand out at the moment as the greatest natural talent of the young drivers. He is also the most ruthless, the biggest ego with the most confidence and it's very divisive, but it is backed up with the results he achieves. However it is entirely possible that the inverse of the thread's title is true. Hamilton may be helping to establish Max's legacy. Max currently doesn't have a car to compete for the WDC, so he doesn't have to make excuses for not doing so. He's been less of a thread to Hamilton's title than Bottas was, but he is a thread to Bottas's second place. That no one else is even close, is giving him a legacy because everyone can fantasise about what might be if the Red Bull could compete every race against the Merc, but we will never know.

In a direct head to head, Max would suddenly be expected to win, and if he failed it would be like this weekend. If he went head to head with Hamilton and failed to win in competitive machinery his legacy would be blunted compared to the one he has as being perceived as "the man who would be WDC if he was in a Merc" that he has now.
The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now.
Hamilton didn't start at Mercedes.
Logic thats why I said you need to understand it to see it, Hamilton started his F1 career in a Mclaren that could win the WDC, logic dictates with the time Verstappen got into F1 that will be the Mercedes.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

Option or Prime wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:23 pm
Verstappen has been in F1 6 years now, after the same time Hamilton had won a world title nearly two. He then started his wining run with Mercedes.
For me there is something missing with Max Verstappen, he should have won more races in my view. You can say its the car but look at what Schumacher did, he guided Ferrari to victories by developing the car. Hamilton has done the same. In an interview with DC he explained how the current car is set up to cope with the driving temperatures of the calendar hence its non performance. Despite that he won.

I just see MV expecting to be given a winning car and complaining when it goes wrong. He should have won in Turkey.
When Hamilton realised he wasn't winning he took a gamble, much like DR has with McLaren. I don't see that in Max. Every year Hamilton stays in F1 is another year without a WDC so yes I think the thread title is spot on. Lets be realistic are we going to say that Leclerc will not win a title or two in the next decade?

Whats more who is to say another prodigious talent isn't just round the corner. I don't see MV automatically nailed on for titles at all.
Hamilton started F1 in a title winning team, since '14 only Mercedes has been serious contenders.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:45 pm
...since '14 only Mercedes has been serious contenders.
I feel the 2018 Ferrari would have given Max a shot at the title. I still think Lewis would have prevailed due to his experience but that Ferrari was better at about 50% of the tracks, easily enough for a top driver to fight for the title.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:52 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:45 pm
...since '14 only Mercedes has been serious contenders.
I feel the 2018 Ferrari would have given Max a shot at the title. I still think Lewis would have prevailed due to his experience but that Ferrari was better at about 50% of the tracks, easily enough for a top driver to fight for the title.
That would be ignoring the disastrous strategy and pit calls.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:05 pm
That would be ignoring the disastrous strategy and pit calls.
I do wonder how much of an impact of Ferrari being unsure which of their drivers was better affected their strategy calls. Had Verstappen and Gasly been Ferrari drivers, I feel that the strategy would be optimised to Max and lead to better results at the tracks favouring Ferrari.

Perhaps Ferrari in 2018 were like McLaren in 2012? Simply not ready for the demands of competing at the sharp end despite having the machinery and drivers to challenge.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:51 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:03 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:48 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:11 am


That's all well and good but then you provided detail merely on an incidental tangent of my post! (I should have put it in small text.)

What are your thoughts on the perception of legacy and ability between the aforementioned names? Why is Verstappen establishing a significant legacy already in terms of general perception of his ability as a driver to Senna and Schumacher levels? Is the general perception of Hamilton lukewarm in comparison, during his rise and for great performances he still puts in today - for example at the Styrian GP weekend?

(But thanks I appreciate that detail. :o )
Hamilton was talked of as being Senna esque prior to winning a title - he had the same hype as Max, and it was equally just as much potential then as it is for Max now. It was clear Hamilton had the greatest natural talent of his peers - but just like Max he lacked elements of refinement.

The reason people hark back to Senna is because of the indelible legacy he left on the sport as being this embodiment of pure natural talent. He's the natural reference point, despite there being 5 drivers with more titles.

Max seems to stand out at the moment as the greatest natural talent of the young drivers. He is also the most ruthless, the biggest ego with the most confidence and it's very divisive, but it is backed up with the results he achieves. However it is entirely possible that the inverse of the thread's title is true. Hamilton may be helping to establish Max's legacy. Max currently doesn't have a car to compete for the WDC, so he doesn't have to make excuses for not doing so. He's been less of a thread to Hamilton's title than Bottas was, but he is a thread to Bottas's second place. That no one else is even close, is giving him a legacy because everyone can fantasise about what might be if the Red Bull could compete every race against the Merc, but we will never know.

In a direct head to head, Max would suddenly be expected to win, and if he failed it would be like this weekend. If he went head to head with Hamilton and failed to win in competitive machinery his legacy would be blunted compared to the one he has as being perceived as "the man who would be WDC if he was in a Merc" that he has now.
The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now.
Unlikely that the driver that finished behind Ricciardo for their first two seasons together would win "at least 3" from the outset.

Hamilton did not get in a Mercedes until his 7th season in Formula 1.
Hamilton started his F1 career in a Mclaren-Mercedes a car that was able to win the WDC, why do I need to explain what I mean by Verstappen starting his F1 career in a Mercedes car that can win the WDC?
Hamilton won in 2008, in a car that his team mate finished 7th in the standings.

Massa is roughly the same pace as Bottas, slightly slower, if we adjust 2020 to replace Hamilton with a team mate that is 3/10th of a second slower than Bottas, then we end up with:

Bottas on 244 points with 7 wins, achieving 20.3 points per finish
Max on 207 points with 5 wins, achieving 20.7 points per finish

Suddenly this season looks very similar to 2008, with Mercedes/Bottas taking the role of Ferrari/Massa and Red Bull/Max taking the role of McLaren/Hamilton.

The 2008 McLaren was a seriously compromised car, it was many toys taken away from it as a result of Spygate, particularly in the areas of braking. It only looked close to Ferrari because of Hamilton. Given the comparisons in speed we now have for Alonso and Raikkonen, I think it is fair to say that even the 2007 McLaren was not as fast as the 2007 Ferrari - which would make sense given where the 2006 McLaren was - but that Alonso and Hamilton were extracting more from the package than Kimi and Massa were from theirs. The 2008 McLaren was a step back, relative to Ferrari.

I believe that if you had switched Massa and Hamilton in 2008, you would have seen a similar season to his one, with Hamilton winning most of the races.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:55 am
I believe that if you had switched Massa and Hamilton in 2008, you would have seen a similar season to his one, with Hamilton winning most of the races.
I think the strongest evidence for this was the pace differential between Schumacher and Massa in 2006. We would be talking about a 9-time world champion with over 100 wins had Schumacher retired after the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix.
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