The Official Alex Albon Thread

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DOLOMITE
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The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

I couldn't see an Offical Thread for Albon so here it is but please let me know if there is already one.

Thoughts on Albons performance so far than?

I'll go first. He's doing....OK.

1) Verstappen. How close can we really expect any driver other than Hamilton or *maybe* Leclerc to be to Verstappen. What is an acceptable gap in terms of qualifying, race finish or points? If you credit Verstappen with his av pts finish where he dnf'd (and same for Albon) the gap would be 165/72.


2) The "recovery" drives and overtakes are all very well but in my mind all he's doing there is using a good car to get back to a position he should already have been in. Bit like complimenting someone for losing weight vs saying well you shouldn't have got fat in the first place.

3) Gasly. Is actually doing better than Gasly did. Yes. Is he doing better than Gasly *could* have? I'm not so sure.

4) Should Red Bull swap Albon out? Not now but they need to make a call with at least 3 races to go for what they want to do in 2021. I do think that their refusal to swap them or at least bin Albon is about saving face because of having already done it with Gasly. If that had not happened I think it would be happening to Albon now.
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pokerman
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by pokerman »

It seems unfortunate for Albon that all his potential best drives seem to rely on SC's.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Harpo »

The second seat at RBR has always been an ejector seat... I don't think anybody can pass a fair judgement on their "very second" driver.
Since the Webber years, I don't trust anything the team can say about their drivers. And it's not what we've seen and heard after Webber's departure that could make me review this.
So about Albon : we'll know when he is in another team.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by pokerman »

Harpo wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:39 am
The second seat at RBR has always been an ejector seat... I don't think anybody can pass a fair judgement on their "very second" driver.
Since the Webber years, I don't trust anything the team can say about their drivers. And it's not what we've seen and heard after Webber's departure that could make me review this.
So about Albon : we'll know when he is in another team.
Well Red Bull recently admitted that the 2 cars are not the same, so there is that.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Option or Prime »

Channel 4 and DC did a good interview with Albon, he stressed that he had a problem with the back end twitching at low fuel loads that meant he didn't have confidence in the car. Since they run the car empty for qualifying that might explain his being off the pace. He does pull off some gorgeous outside overtakes. CH said they were trying to address that issue. MV doesn't have an issue with the rear sliding around.
Wouldn't a stable rear end be better for both drivers?
I do think he has great potential surely race craft is the hardest thing to learn, he can get faster in practice by .... well ..practicing.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:58 am
Channel 4 and DC did a good interview with Albon, he stressed that he had a problem with the back end twitching at low fuel loads that meant he didn't have confidence in the car. Since they run the car empty for qualifying that might explain his being off the pace. He does pull off some gorgeous outside overtakes. CH said they were trying to address that issue. MV doesn't have an issue with the rear sliding around.
Wouldn't a stable rear end be better for both drivers?
I do think he has great potential surely race craft is the hardest thing to learn, he can get faster in practice by .... well ..practicing.
From my understanding a stable rear end can make a car suffer in slow corners, it's slow to change directon. This is an area were Red Bull suffered relative to Mercedes last year, hence the car they designed this year, however it seems like they may have gone a bit too far with the design and made the car just a bit too twitchy.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

Harpo wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:39 am
The second seat at RBR has always been an ejector seat... I don't think anybody can pass a fair judgement on their "very second" driver.
Since the Webber years, I don't trust anything the team can say about their drivers. And it's not what we've seen and heard after Webber's departure that could make me review this.
So about Albon : we'll know when he is in another team.

Well there's no doubt Verstappen is the chosen one. But whatever preferential treatment he might be getting, surely as a team you still want the fellow in the other car right behind him? Not 5 cars down clawing his way past cars he should never have been behind?

Also, over 12 races he didnt shown himself to be any better than Kvyat. OK it was stupid short notice and Kvyat was pretty experienced, but even so, his call up to Red Bull seems stranger the more time passes. Break that 12 race run into 4 and his AV Fin was
1-3: 11.0
1-6: 10.5,
1-9: 11.6,
1-12:11.0

I like the chap (hard not to), I've read his feedback is terrific, he's done some class overtakes and he was unlucky with the first Hamilton incident, but surely Red Bull want someone closer to Verstappen.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Albon's problem isn't just that Red Bull is pursuing a policy of putting all their eggs in Verstappen's basket, but that they have created negative eggs for Albon to give Max even more.

There is no question that Max is the better driver, but Albon's race strategies have been consistently been ruined so he can be used as tyre life checker so they know when or if they should pit Max.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Harpo »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:46 pm
Harpo wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:39 am
The second seat at RBR has always been an ejector seat... I don't think anybody can pass a fair judgement on their "very second" driver.
Since the Webber years, I don't trust anything the team can say about their drivers. And it's not what we've seen and heard after Webber's departure that could make me review this.
So about Albon : we'll know when he is in another team.

Well there's no doubt Verstappen is the chosen one. But whatever preferential treatment he might be getting, surely as a team you still want the fellow in the other car right behind him? Not 5 cars down clawing his way past cars he should never have been behind?

Also, over 12 races he didnt shown himself to be any better than Kvyat. OK it was stupid short notice and Kvyat was pretty experienced, but even so, his call up to Red Bull seems stranger the more time passes. Break that 12 race run into 4 and his AV Fin was
1-3: 11.0
1-6: 10.5,
1-9: 11.6,
1-12:11.0

I like the chap (hard not to), I've read his feedback is terrific, he's done some class overtakes and he was unlucky with the first Hamilton incident, but surely Red Bull want someone closer to Verstappen.
May be they want someone closer to Verstappen, that's what they say when they want to get rid of the second driver, but it's not obvious they actually want it. Considering the "strategies" he gets, and his guinea pig status for Verstappen, I guess that the second driver at RBR has to be better than their first driver to just end closer.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Schermerhorn »

The second seat at Red Bull has always been a bit of a poisoned chalice.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Barkilphedro »

I'll add my voice to all those that say (in effect) that to be the "2nd" driver in the Red Bull team is the kiss of death to any WC hopes.

They really do (from where I sit) have definite "favourite" drivers who would appear to get much better treatment in terms of car set up (and design?). I'd say it was very apparent with Vettel (part of the young driver programme) vs Webber (a "bought-in driver). Then again after Ricciardo proved to be an excellent racer, I believe that Vettel saw his status diminish and decided to jump ship. Following that, the promotion of Verstappen generated a lot of publicity (Red Bull is a brand don't forget) and I think Ricciardo became the effective "no.2". Hence his defection. We'll see how long the Max thing lasts.

There's a couple of things in Mark Webber's autobiography that intrigue me. One is about Helmut Marko given the apparent power that the latter gentleman wields within their young driver programme (if you've got the MW book in hardback, it starts about half way down page 209 but there are a lot of other references.............). It's not very complementary ;) And on the bottom of page 286 of the same book (btw, it's an excellent read, a lot aren't) there's the following quote "The same Renault engineer also said that when engines were routinely tested on the dynamometer, the unit showing the higher readings - the strongest engine - would systematically go to Vettel's side of the garage, rather than alternating as had been the practice previously" [I'm assuming that refers to when DC was in the team].

I keep thinking back to the days when McLaren had Coulthard and Hakkinen driving for them. Hakkinen always seemed to be faster than DC, but at one point, Courtyard was most definitely on top for about 4 races. Ron Dennis in an interview said that he believed that recent updates to the car had favoured DC's style more that Mika's. It's very strange to get 2 drivers in a team who both like the same car characteristics. So if you favour one driver, the other guy may just have to "get on with it". And if the characteristics your "no.1" prefers are quite "out there" then the second guy is going to appear to be having problems.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

well this weekend won't have helped much...
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Albon did not impress at all in feeder series like FR and F3. First time he showed some talent was in GP3 being second to Leclerc. He was 3rd in F2 in his second season, beaten by rookie Norris. Overall, this looks like a midfield driver in F1 standards. And that's how he performs in F1.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

I feel that Albon may make a bloody good WEC driver. Fingers crossed that if F1 doesn't work for him, he gets some other good chances in top level motorsport.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:25 pm
I feel that Albon may make a bloody good WEC driver. Fingers crossed that if F1 doesn't work for him, he gets some other good chances in top level motorsport.
He was all set to start in Formula E before Red Bull called him back for a (what was then) Torro Rosso seat and he has proven himself to be more than capable in that (as has Gasly!). Agree that he is certainly good enough to compete in an alternate series at top level.
I'm convinced that there is something about finding a set-up in that Red Bull that neither he, nor Gasly, have yet been able to unlock.
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DOLOMITE
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

well that won't have helped.....
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Horner's defence of Albon is getting ridiculous now: https://www.racefans.net/2020/10/12/alb ... sh-horner/

Kvyat did make a mistake, but Kvyat knew he made a mistake, and made no effort to block Albon from passing and rightly so. The contact happened some time after Kvyat cut the corner. 100% on albon and the penalty was lenient.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Yeah Horner's is spewing class A bullshite there and he knows it. Trouble is what else can he do. He criticises Albon and he is accused of not supporting his driver.

The main issue I have with Albon is that he seems to be getting worse rather than better. When that happens I can't think of many instances where a driver has reversed that slide.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:41 pm
Yeah Horner's is spewing class A bullshite there and he knows it. Trouble is what else can he do. He criticises Albon and he is accused of not supporting his driver.

The main issue I have with Albon is that he seems to be getting worse rather than better. When that happens I can't think of many instances where a driver has reversed that slide.
I'd honestly expect him to say "we will learn from this" or something. But what he came up with was pure BS

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

I do do wonder if Red Bull are just riding the season out. They aren't going to win either of the titles and aren't really uunder threat for 2nd by Racing Point so may as well just see it through. Unless their position in the WCC is under threat, there's little point in switching.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:41 pm
Yeah Horner's is spewing class A bullshite there and he knows it. Trouble is what else can he do. He criticises Albon and he is accused of not supporting his driver.

The main issue I have with Albon is that he seems to be getting worse rather than better. When that happens I can't think of many instances where a driver has reversed that slide.
There is a pattern emerging at Red Bull with the 2nd drivers confidence.

I'd say Albon is now every bit as bad as what Gasly was when Red Bull gave him the chop.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Bye bye Alex!!
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by oz_karter »

I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Siao7 »

oz_karter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:23 am
I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...
What does RoGro have to do with this? Max and others came in the spotlight on a top tier seat and they did fine. If he is not a top tier driver, then it is logical that he will go, it is not about being fair. Think of it from RB's side, is it fair to just give the seat to someone that underperforms and costs them WCC points?

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

oz_karter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:23 am
I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...
Is he so bad? Speedwise he is probably at least as good as Albon. So, it would come down to counting the mistakes ...

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

oz_karter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:23 am
I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...
Grosjean is driving better than Albon.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:58 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:41 pm
Yeah Horner's is spewing class A bullshite there and he knows it. Trouble is what else can he do. He criticises Albon and he is accused of not supporting his driver.

The main issue I have with Albon is that he seems to be getting worse rather than better. When that happens I can't think of many instances where a driver has reversed that slide.
There is a pattern emerging at Red Bull with the 2nd drivers confidence.

I'd say Albon is now every bit as bad as what Gasly was when Red Bull gave him the chop.
Agreed, and look at how Gasly is driving now. I've seen plenty of people saying Albon shouldn't be driving an F1 car on the back of recent performances, never ceases to amaze me how short the memories of F1 fans can be.

I dont see Albon coming back from this in a Red Bull seat, not unless he's kept on for next year and manages a mental reset over the winter, but he could succeed elsewhere on the grid IMO.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:35 am
oz_karter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:23 am
I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...
Is he so bad? Speedwise he is probably at least as good as Albon. So, it would come down to counting the mistakes ...
On race day, Grosjean hasn't had a retirement that was 100% his fault since Spain 2018. That season was terrible in the first half, but he's overall looked better than magnussen since then. Last year I would certainly say he was decent and not just by his standards. And this year, he got off to a poor start, but has been pretty good more recently. Grosjean does still get plenty of hate and for some reason, he still does now despite significantly cutting down on his mistakes. In terms of mistakes this year, I think Albon has quite possibly made more costly ones than Grosjean.

Horner's defence of albon is starting to sound like he's saying everything positive through gritted teeth. Even the praise for his podium didn't sound genuine and more like giving him a little credit for befitting from the bad luck of his team mate, the safety car and other things.

Interestingly, despite the criticism Grosjean gets, the credit he got from his team last race sounded very real. His engineer said "Everybody's absolutely ecstatic" and also gave him credit for surviving the laps at the end on his older tyres when he wasn't helped by the safety car.


Grosjean may sort of be an irrelevant comparison to albon, but I honestly think the chances are quite possibly higher that Grosjean will be at Haas next year than Albon remaining at Red Bull.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by pokerman »

oz_karter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:23 am
I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...
I believe that Grosjean will not be in F1 next year.
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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:44 pm
oz_karter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:23 am
I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...
I believe that Grosjean will not be in F1 next year.
He seems to be looking to the Peugeot hypercar project.

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Re: The Official Alex Albon Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:44 pm
oz_karter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:23 am
I think this is all a bit unfair. Albon is in the spotlight because it's a top tier seat and there is history there.

No one seems to care about how bad Grosjean is anymore...
I believe that Grosjean will not be in F1 next year.
:thumbup: :nod:
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