Standing Re-starts

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DOLOMITE
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Standing Re-starts

Post by DOLOMITE »

Te Red Flag and Standing Start seem to be causing some debate.

Interesting one as a standing start is generally more exciting then a rolling one , but in this context the discussion seems to be around a few things

Lapped cars unlapping themselves
Safety concerns
Advantages being wiped out
Are they being done for the right reasons


I'm only going to wade in on the safety thing. Surely some of what we saw on Sunday was just in experience? The F1 drivers are not used to this yet.
I'm pretty sure that were we to get another re-start at the next race, we wouldn't see the back-of-the-grid drivers flooring it at Green the way we did this time.


So, thoughts please?
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JN23
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by JN23 »

I find the standing start after a red flag unfair and 'just for the show'.

Imagine if there was a red flag after 50 laps of a 60 lap race and driver A had dominated and had a 30 second lead and was then beating to turn one on the standing restart by driver B who has been off the pace. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

I like standing re-starts after red flag situations. These situations destroy the former race anyway in terms of gaps and strategies. To me, the additional "unfairness" of a standing re-start is marginal. Therefore, the additional excitement is a positive thing IMO.

If they'd use VSC instead of SC in full-course yellow situations, that would be more relevant for reducing unfair interventions into the races.

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Covalent
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Covalent »

I like how it is now. We get:

VSC - Racing resumed after track is clear. Relative positions on track kept somewhat intact
SC - Racing resumed once safety car comes in. Field bunched up, rolling start
Red flag - Racing postponed and resumed after a standing start. Field bunched up.

We get a nice variety IMO, and the Mugello race would've been a boring procession if we only get the VSC like some suggest.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by pokerman »

The VSC is supposed to be used for incidents that can be sorted off the track, SC when the track itself is dangerous, but the VSC is simply never getting used so the only answer to this is the need to spice up the race.

I've heard it being said that it's Liberty Media's preference for SC's to be used, this not too surprising from an American company weened on the culture of SC's in their domestic market.
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DOLOMITE
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by DOLOMITE »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:54 am
The VSC is supposed to be used for incidents that can be sorted off the track, SC when the track itself is dangerous, but the VSC is simply never getting used so the only answer to this is the need to spice up the race.

I've heard it being said that it's Liberty Media's preference for SC's to be used, this not too surprising from an American company weened on the culture of SC's in their domestic market.
Yeah I think there's some credence to that. Be interesting to see some stats on how many times SC have been used since the acquisition.
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tootsie323
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by tootsie323 »

I don't think that there is too much debate over the red flag. If the circuit is deemed too difficult to negotiate, even at SC speeds, or a barrier need to be repaired the race needs to be stopped. The contentious issue is probably more over a standing, as opposed to rolling, start.
In either instance, any time gap that has been built between one driver and another is eliminated. With a rolling start, at least the cars are line astern and there isn't the variable of launch to worry about. As Hamilton put it - the Tuscany GP was effectively three mini-races.
If you look at Russell's race, aside from what responsibility he may be subject to for the first stoppage, he found himself running in ninth place - and, with the cars around him, on pace / merit - ironically due to Stroll's off that resulted in the second stoppage. He made a poor subsequent restart and those points, which he looked to be picking up, vanished.
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Covalent
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Covalent »

I don't really follow the american racing series, but I've understood that over there they don't give any advance notice of when the racing resumes (green flag) after a caution period (yellow flag). The drivers are just suddenly notified by radio and flags and that's it. I wonder if that could work in F1 after a SC period?

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:48 am
I find the standing start after a red flag unfair and 'just for the show'.

Imagine if there was a red flag after 50 laps of a 60 lap race and driver A had dominated and had a 30 second lead and was then beating to turn one on the standing restart by driver B who has been off the pace. Doesn't seem fair to me.
So long as the starts are within the drivers control and not random then I dont see it as being unfair.

If you build a big gap and then lose places because of a bad restart then I get that would be annoying, but it's not like it was just bad luck, the driver is still in control of their launch off the line and positioning into the first corner. The unfair part is the gap itself that was lost, but that's the same regardless of whether there is a standing or rolling start.

I dont think you can say Bottas was unlucky yesterday for instance, Hamilton was just better on both of the 2 standing restarts, but that was down to skill, not luck.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Lord Crc »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:48 am
I find the standing start after a red flag unfair and 'just for the show'.

Imagine if there was a red flag after 50 laps of a 60 lap race and driver A had dominated and had a 30 second lead and was then beating to turn one on the standing restart by driver B who has been off the pace. Doesn't seem fair to me.
Well if you have a red flag the situation is well past a safety car already, so the gap would have been gone anyway. There will always be things that are unfair due to technical limitations and safety. This is not the worst by far IMHO.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by JN23 »

Lord Crc wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:39 pm
JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:48 am
I find the standing start after a red flag unfair and 'just for the show'.

Imagine if there was a red flag after 50 laps of a 60 lap race and driver A had dominated and had a 30 second lead and was then beating to turn one on the standing restart by driver B who has been off the pace. Doesn't seem fair to me.
Well if you have a red flag the situation is well past a safety car already, so the gap would have been gone anyway. There will always be things that are unfair due to technical limitations and safety. This is not the worst by far IMHO.
I realise that the gap would be gone with a safety car anyway, but the lead driver is less likely to lose position on a safety car/rolling restart than a standing start.

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Banana Man
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Banana Man »

Maybe the standing restarts should be reserved for the first 10 laps, then people don’t get screwed over at the end of a race, like Russel was.
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:41 pm
Lord Crc wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:39 pm
JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:48 am
I find the standing start after a red flag unfair and 'just for the show'.

Imagine if there was a red flag after 50 laps of a 60 lap race and driver A had dominated and had a 30 second lead and was then beating to turn one on the standing restart by driver B who has been off the pace. Doesn't seem fair to me.
Well if you have a red flag the situation is well past a safety car already, so the gap would have been gone anyway. There will always be things that are unfair due to technical limitations and safety. This is not the worst by far IMHO.
I realise that the gap would be gone with a safety car anyway, but the lead driver is less likely to lose position on a safety car/rolling restart than a standing start.
... which I agree may well be perceived to be unfair. However, maybe the driver in second is there because he pitted from the lead whereas the current leader gained a free pit stop due to the red flag. Then, a rolling start would be more unfair because on many circuits it practically cements the order. Thus, in total, the standing re-start is not necessarily more unfair than a rolling re-start ( it depends) - and therefore I go with the bigger excitement of the standing re-start.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Asphalt_World »

Banana Man wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:26 pm
Maybe the standing restarts should be reserved for the first 10 laps, then people don’t get screwed over at the end of a race, like Russel was.
I agree, although I'd perhaps even reduce it for the first 5 laps. After that, rolling restarts.
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by j man »

No problem with standing starts after a red flag, I am much more concerned about the inappropriate use of the Safety Car and arguably even the red flags to generate "excitement". People are saying it made the race more exciting, I would actually argue the opposite and say that it ruined it. Mugello absolutely chews up tyres and this was generating an interesting race strategically, we got hints of this when Bottas really struggled at the end of his first stint. Was looking forward to how it was all going to play out, but instead we effectively got two sprint races.

If this is the future, then it's genuinely going to put me off the sport. I can handle DRS and comedy tyres (as per my previous point, races dictated by tyre wear can be interesting to have from time to time), but attempts to jumble up the order for the sake of it is a step too far. My only hope is that it's a stop-gap solution to make the races more interesting until they can fix the aero wash problem so that the cars can race each other.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by pokerman »

So the SC turning it's lights off late is a new thing introduced this year because it makes it harder for the leader to get a clean gap and makes for more exciting restarts, yeah we saw just how exciting, Masi denies this had anything to do with the multiple crash but as we can begin to see Masi just does what he is told to do by Liberty Media.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by tootsie323 »

j man wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:11 pm
No problem with standing starts after a red flag, I am much more concerned about the inappropriate use of the Safety Car and arguably even the red flags to generate "excitement". People are saying it made the race more exciting, I would actually argue the opposite and say that it ruined it. Mugello absolutely chews up tyres and this was generating an interesting race strategically, we got hints of this when Bottas really struggled at the end of his first stint. Was looking forward to how it was all going to play out, but instead we effectively got two sprint races...
There's a point here - nothing wrong with a race stoppage but the freedom to change tyres, settings etc could perhaps be removed. We could still see the strategies being played out.
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Lord Crc
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Lord Crc »

Yes I don't understand the ability to change tires or parts during red flag. The race is stopped. If they want to change tires or parts, do it on the clock.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by pokerman »

Lord Crc wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:05 pm
Yes I don't understand the ability to change tires or parts during red flag. The race is stopped. If they want to change tires or parts, do it on the clock.
I think they're allowed to change tyres because often there can be debris on the track and a tyre can be damaged, at the restart with a damaged tyre someone might have a Stroll like crash, so it would be strange to stop a race for safety reasons but then allow a car on track in an unsafe condition.
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Racing is not fair. Drivers can die, they can be sacked in an instant, politics can ruin a career, I can think of many examples.

Get over it, in the long run over an entire season, this type of situation is very rare. So a few drivers go screwed over, so what? I do feel for them, but I am not a fan and viewer to suit them. They are there because I watch Formula One, the sponsors like that, and they are the ones who pay for the entire show.

If Formula One becomes a boring procession, less and less fans watch each year, sponsorship money dries up, the drivers make less income. Russel may have lost a few positions for this one race, but in the long run, this kind of race will bring him a larger income.
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by macaw »

Could always go back to aggregate time from the '90's.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by DOLOMITE »

macaw wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:50 am
Could always go back to aggregate time from the '90's.
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by Lord Crc »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:39 am
I think they're allowed to change tyres because often there can be debris on the track and a tyre can be damaged, at the restart with a damaged tyre someone might have a Stroll like crash, so it would be strange to stop a race for safety reasons but then allow a car on track in an unsafe condition.
But that's the case with just about every safety car, and many non-safety car incidents. So yeah ok, but meh.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by pokerman »

Lord Crc wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:51 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:39 am
I think they're allowed to change tyres because often there can be debris on the track and a tyre can be damaged, at the restart with a damaged tyre someone might have a Stroll like crash, so it would be strange to stop a race for safety reasons but then allow a car on track in an unsafe condition.
But that's the case with just about every safety car, and many non-safety car incidents. So yeah ok, but meh.
I would imagine they would take the chance to pit under the SC if they had such issues.
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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by WHoff78 »

The standing restarts, and frequency of safety cars in general, goes hand in hand with the discussion on reverse grids. It just highlights further the current issues with F1. While the cars can’t overtake/follow, they look for other ways to improve the show. The majority of action, particularly for the lead of the race happens of the start line. That’s the harsh reality.

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Re: Standing Re-starts

Post by tootsie323 »

Standing restarts are the norm for a post-red-flag and red flags are put out for genuine safety reasons. I agree that a rolling start is fairer but don't have too much of a gripe over this.
The frequency at which the Safety Car has been deployed (and, on occasion, its timing) is a more annoying thing to me. It's easy for the powers-that-be to draw the safety card, particularly in the light of Bianchi back in 2014, but even I am becoming a little cynical about it.
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