2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

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JN23
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by JN23 »

To avoid this happening next time (if there is a next time), could they ensure the leader has to start racing earlier on the straight?

Verstappen did a similar restart in Brazil last year and that didn’t end in carnage, however.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:15 pm
To avoid this happening next time (if there is a next time), could they ensure the leader has to start racing earlier on the straight?

Verstappen did a similar restart in Brazil last year and that didn’t end in carnage, however.
Yeah I don't think that it's necessary to enforce any new rules or anything. We have seen starts like this many times without an issue. Even through F2 and F3 they were doing the same thing.

Asphalt_World
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

As I mentioned during the race, do we not think the could restart like a rolling start. All cars have to hold a steady speed dictated by the car at the front, and then a green light is shown when they can all floor it. This would stop any silly tactics being attempted. Never really liked the way the leading car can do whatever they please. Not blaming Bottas for today, just the system in general.
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JN23
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by JN23 »

I think someone asked earlier in the thread about last race with two red flags. Answer is Brazil 2016.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:23 pm
As I mentioned during the race, do we not think the could restart like a rolling start. All cars have to hold a steady speed dictated by the car at the front, and then a green light is shown when they can all floor it. This would stop any silly tactics being attempted. Never really liked the way the leading car can do whatever they please. Not blaming Bottas for today, just the system in general.
I've always quite enjoyed the tactical element of the restart personally. I wouldn't want all that standardised and don't think there is really a reason to do so.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:08 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:23 pm
As I mentioned during the race, do we not think the could restart like a rolling start. All cars have to hold a steady speed dictated by the car at the front, and then a green light is shown when they can all floor it. This would stop any silly tactics being attempted. Never really liked the way the leading car can do whatever they please. Not blaming Bottas for today, just the system in general.
I've always quite enjoyed the tactical element of the restart personally. I wouldn't want all that standardised and don't think there is really a reason to do so.
Well, the only tactical element is what the lead driver wants to do. If they all had the green light for go, it would be amazing to see who could utilise that the best down the grid.
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Johnson
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Johnson »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:05 pm
It seems it was Russell that caused restart mayhem, he was P11 and left a huge gap to p10. Accelerated into it, which others behind followed and then Russell slowed. Really poor driving
Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
Russell appeared to be up with a Renault, just on the other side of the track, when the mayhem started. I don't think he was able to accelerate and then brake any more than other cars.
He dropped back and accelerated into the gap, here it is-

https://streamable.com/9m2b77

I’m surprised he hasn’t taken more blame, nobody else did that. These cars are so wide and limited view from the cockpit, the drivers can’t see much at all to tell when it’s back to racing.

K-mag (behind Russell) does the correct thing, but with those two braking it sets off the chaos.
https://streamable.com/xn0bfs

K-mag or anybody else did nothing wrong, it’s all on Russell for me.

smiddlehurst
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by smiddlehurst »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:05 pm
It seems it was Russell that caused restart mayhem, he was P11 and left a huge gap to p10. Accelerated into it, which others behind followed and then Russell slowed. Really poor driving
Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
That sounds like that they don't really know who was responsible.
Oh they know... the problem is it's a red car. No, not those red cars, this one was at the pointy end...

Watch the lap *before* the restart. Notice sent out that the safety car was in this lap with, oh, probably half a lap to go, no problem there. But the safety car itself is still running the lights until almost the last corner. Believe that means that Bottas (or anyone else for that matter) can't back off more than ten car lengths so the entire field just keeps going as if it's a normal safety car lap rather than a restart. By the time it switches the lights off it's *way* too late for any sort of sensible restart. There's all sorts of odd gaps that just wouldn't be there normally and that's compounded by Bottas almost going to the line before hitting the gas. Not that there was much choice for him if he didn't want to get outrun to turn one.

Second time in two races that the powers that be have done an oopsie, IMO of course. This one was a straightforward cock-up and they should have just waved the safety car around one more lap. Monza is more of a judgement call but I *still* have no idea why they closed the pits. Yes, there was a car somewhere close to the entrance but not really in the way. Surely it was better to leave 'em open, let the field pit when they were slightly spaced out but under SC conditions? Go back and look at the scramble for pit stops once they were allowed in and it's a minor miracle no-one crashed.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:05 pm
It seems it was Russell that caused restart mayhem, he was P11 and left a huge gap to p10. Accelerated into it, which others behind followed and then Russell slowed. Really poor driving
Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
Russell appeared to be up with a Renault, just on the other side of the track, when the mayhem started. I don't think he was able to accelerate and then brake any more than other cars.
He dropped back and accelerated into the gap, here it is-

https://streamable.com/9m2b77

I’m surprised he hasn’t taken more blame, nobody else did that. These cars are so wide and limited view from the cockpit, the drivers can’t see much at all to tell when it’s back to racing.

K-mag (behind Russell) does the correct thing, but with those two braking it sets off the chaos.
https://streamable.com/xn0bfs

K-mag or anybody else did nothing wrong, it’s all on Russell for me.
I agree what Russell did looked to trigger it, but those other drivers shouldn't have relied on Russel ahead. All should have kept applying a more consistent amount of throttle and break. It was doing the opposite of this that apparently gave 12 drivers formal warnings. From Grosjean's onboard, he was one of the few that didn't get a warning and looked to stay at a similar pace to the leaders and just about managed to avoid the carnage.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:05 pm
It seems it was Russell that caused restart mayhem, he was P11 and left a huge gap to p10. Accelerated into it, which others behind followed and then Russell slowed. Really poor driving
Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
Russell appeared to be up with a Renault, just on the other side of the track, when the mayhem started. I don't think he was able to accelerate and then brake any more than other cars.
He dropped back and accelerated into the gap, here it is-

https://streamable.com/9m2b77

I’m surprised he hasn’t taken more blame, nobody else did that. These cars are so wide and limited view from the cockpit, the drivers can’t see much at all to tell when it’s back to racing.

K-mag (behind Russell) does the correct thing, but with those two braking it sets off the chaos.
https://streamable.com/xn0bfs

K-mag or anybody else did nothing wrong, it’s all on Russell for me.
It is beyond me why Russell did not receive a harsh penalty here. That was seriously dangerous.

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Covalent
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Covalent »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:05 pm
It seems it was Russell that caused restart mayhem, he was P11 and left a huge gap to p10. Accelerated into it, which others behind followed and then Russell slowed. Really poor driving
Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
Russell appeared to be up with a Renault, just on the other side of the track, when the mayhem started. I don't think he was able to accelerate and then brake any more than other cars.
He dropped back and accelerated into the gap, here it is-

https://streamable.com/9m2b77

I’m surprised he hasn’t taken more blame, nobody else did that. These cars are so wide and limited view from the cockpit, the drivers can’t see much at all to tell when it’s back to racing.

K-mag (behind Russell) does the correct thing, but with those two braking it sets off the chaos.
https://streamable.com/xn0bfs

K-mag or anybody else did nothing wrong, it’s all on Russell for me.
OT but I wonder what K-Mag's race engineer means by "mode race start", shouldn't fast sort of thing be banned by now?

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

If you listen to Russell's engine note out of the final corner, it's not so much him holding back but those in front accelerating quickly and leaving him behind. Understandably he then accelerates to catch them, only to find they've had to seriously back off again.
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JN23
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by JN23 »

Covalent wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:56 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm

Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
Russell appeared to be up with a Renault, just on the other side of the track, when the mayhem started. I don't think he was able to accelerate and then brake any more than other cars.
He dropped back and accelerated into the gap, here it is-

https://streamable.com/9m2b77

I’m surprised he hasn’t taken more blame, nobody else did that. These cars are so wide and limited view from the cockpit, the drivers can’t see much at all to tell when it’s back to racing.

K-mag (behind Russell) does the correct thing, but with those two braking it sets off the chaos.
https://streamable.com/xn0bfs

K-mag or anybody else did nothing wrong, it’s all on Russell for me.
OT but I wonder what K-Mag's race engineer means by "mode race start", shouldn't fast sort of thing be banned by now?
I'm speculating because I don't know but you're allowed to change engine modes for safety cars, laps to the grid etc I think, so could be that 'mode race start' is putting it into the one engine mode.

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Johnson
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Johnson »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:08 pm
If you listen to Russell's engine note out of the final corner, it's not so much him holding back but those in front accelerating quickly and leaving him behind. Understandably he then accelerates to catch them, only to find they've had to seriously back off again.
That is a lame excuse for me, what you are saying is if that was the actual restart (time to go) then Russell did the worst SC restart in history. You have to maintain a certain distance and he dropped way behind it. Nobody else had a problem maintaining that distance.

He was trying to be too clever, he tried to time it so that when everybody did go he would be doing 150mph whilst they were all doing 100mph

BMWSauber84
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

An astonishing race really with last week's podium sitters all failing to finish for one reason or another. Bottas finally got the job done at the start, only to lose it shortly after the second start. The same old story for him I'm afraid. Hamilton just edges the decisive moments and seems to have greater race pace and tyre management most of the time.

Another strong showing from Ricciardo. He is looking like the man who can take McLaren back to the top in the next few seasons.

Driving standards have to be called into question again. It was a bit amateurish and embarrassing it the start, and the scenes at the safety car restart shamed the sport. It's not an exaggeration to say someone could have been killed. It was just ridiculously dangerous.

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spiritone
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by spiritone »

Interesting conversations about restarts. First we seem to have a lot of F1 drivers on this forum. First your sitting in the fastest accelerating formula car on the planet. Two your siting in a car where your field of visions is blocked by the wing of the car in front of you. While the leader at the front may be going at a fairly constant speed the cars behind him are judging their speed by the car in frt of them. Those cars speed is not constant because the further you are from the front the more the constertina effect is happening. Because the straightaway is so long and bottas waiting till the last possible moment to accelerate the crash was inevitable. Solution???? Tricky. One thing we do know is the present method doesn't work a this track and i don't believe it's the drivers fault.

Standing restarts are just plain weird. Whatever work you have done up to that point in the race is thrown out the window. Not a fan.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:50 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:08 pm
If you listen to Russell's engine note out of the final corner, it's not so much him holding back but those in front accelerating quickly and leaving him behind. Understandably he then accelerates to catch them, only to find they've had to seriously back off again.
That is a lame excuse for me, what you are saying is if that was the actual restart (time to go) then Russell did the worst SC restart in history. You have to maintain a certain distance and he dropped way behind it. Nobody else had a problem maintaining that distance.

He was trying to be too clever, he tried to time it so that when everybody did go he would be doing 150mph whilst they were all doing 100mph
All drivers have to maintain a certain distance behind the car in front. In my decades of watching F1, this never happens.
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Exediron
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Exediron »

spiritone wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:12 am
Standing restarts are just plain weird. Whatever work you have done up to that point in the race is thrown out the window. Not a fan.
Agreed. They exist for cheap entertainment purposes and nothing else. In effect, they begin a new race with a grid set by the previous partial race.
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Option or Prime »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:16 am
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:50 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:08 pm
If you listen to Russell's engine note out of the final corner, it's not so much him holding back but those in front accelerating quickly and leaving him behind. Understandably he then accelerates to catch them, only to find they've had to seriously back off again.
That is a lame excuse for me, what you are saying is if that was the actual restart (time to go) then Russell did the worst SC restart in history. You have to maintain a certain distance and he dropped way behind it. Nobody else had a problem maintaining that distance.

He was trying to be too clever, he tried to time it so that when everybody did go he would be doing 150mph whilst they were all doing 100mph
All drivers have to maintain a certain distance behind the car in front. In my decades of watching F1, this never happens.
Thats over the top to suggest its Russel's fault, its not as though everyone else was in a perfectly spaced train of cars. Neither is it Bottas' fault.
I said this in the race thread:
Bottas' fault or Safety car not giving sufficient notice of restart?
Its now been picked up by Hamilton, Bottas and Albon with the FIA refuting it. : Well worth reading this.

There might be denial but safety cars, restarts and unprecedented decisions do seem to be order of the day, lets face it the sport is changing.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:56 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm

Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
Russell appeared to be up with a Renault, just on the other side of the track, when the mayhem started. I don't think he was able to accelerate and then brake any more than other cars.
He dropped back and accelerated into the gap, here it is-

https://streamable.com/9m2b77

I’m surprised he hasn’t taken more blame, nobody else did that. These cars are so wide and limited view from the cockpit, the drivers can’t see much at all to tell when it’s back to racing.

K-mag (behind Russell) does the correct thing, but with those two braking it sets off the chaos.
https://streamable.com/xn0bfs

K-mag or anybody else did nothing wrong, it’s all on Russell for me.
OT but I wonder what K-Mag's race engineer means by "mode race start", shouldn't fast sort of thing be banned by now?
I believe you can use a lower mode behind the SC?
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by pc27b »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:54 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:51 pm
I'm at a loss to understand how this wasn't a red flag immediately. Surely the need to rebuild the tyre wall was obvious?
.

IF a circuit is so unsafe that they can't do the basics under a safety car then they should not be racing there.

.
i was wondering about this. did the talking heads on sky say all the boom trucks had to come from inside the track on the front straight ??

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Option or Prime »

Used a lot for bikes so the gaps in the Aramco aren't wide enough.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by pokerman »

smiddlehurst wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:39 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:05 pm
It seems it was Russell that caused restart mayhem, he was P11 and left a huge gap to p10. Accelerated into it, which others behind followed and then Russell slowed. Really poor driving
Which you're not supposed to do, he needs points on his license.
The powers that be have spoken -

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/13/for ... art-crash/
That sounds like that they don't really know who was responsible.
Oh they know... the problem is it's a red car. No, not those red cars, this one was at the pointy end...

Watch the lap *before* the restart. Notice sent out that the safety car was in this lap with, oh, probably half a lap to go, no problem there. But the safety car itself is still running the lights until almost the last corner. Believe that means that Bottas (or anyone else for that matter) can't back off more than ten car lengths so the entire field just keeps going as if it's a normal safety car lap rather than a restart. By the time it switches the lights off it's *way* too late for any sort of sensible restart. There's all sorts of odd gaps that just wouldn't be there normally and that's compounded by Bottas almost going to the line before hitting the gas. Not that there was much choice for him if he didn't want to get outrun to turn one.

Second time in two races that the powers that be have done an oopsie, IMO of course. This one was a straightforward cock-up and they should have just waved the safety car around one more lap. Monza is more of a judgement call but I *still* have no idea why they closed the pits. Yes, there was a car somewhere close to the entrance but not really in the way. Surely it was better to leave 'em open, let the field pit when they were slightly spaced out but under SC conditions? Go back and look at the scramble for pit stops once they were allowed in and it's a minor miracle no-one crashed.
Sounds like you might be right.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/14/oco ... a-mistake/

For me it further casts doubt on Masi's stewardship.
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by pc27b »

Option or Prime wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:42 am
Used a lot for bikes so the gaps in the Aramco aren't wide enough.
i think your answering my question, thanks. that explains the red flag

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by tim3003 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:09 pm
We all know about the situations on motorways where a car up ahead, often a mile away, brakes for some reason. The car behind brakes a little more, the car behind even more and so on. Many hundreds of metres further back. we're all stamping on the brakes wondering what the heck is going on. It's the concertina affect.

I think this is similar to what happened here. No one person responsible but the knock-on effect down the grid was rather huge.
I don't think that presumption is good enough.

I thought that when behind the safety car OR the leader at the end of the final SC lap, the field was to follow in single file, keeping a safe distance to the car in front. This should have been how they approached the start line. OK Bottas surprised them all by not bolting earlier, but that's his right as leader. The field was not even remotely in single file, they were all over eachother looking to get the best take-off. Giovinazzi accelerated hugely at one point and ended up hitting someone in front. He was unsighted, but he shouldn't have done what he did. Isn't it true that overtaking before the start/finish line is not allowed anyway? It seems to me that safety car discipline was not even vaguely followed here, and that precipitated the accident.

Apparently Lewis and other complained that the SC lights were turned off very late - at the final corner - so Bottas wasn't aware that this was the final SC lap until the home straght. That's down to the race stewards I suppose.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Fiki »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:50 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:08 pm
If you listen to Russell's engine note out of the final corner, it's not so much him holding back but those in front accelerating quickly and leaving him behind. Understandably he then accelerates to catch them, only to find they've had to seriously back off again.
That is a lame excuse for me, what you are saying is if that was the actual restart (time to go) then Russell did the worst SC restart in history. You have to maintain a certain distance and he dropped way behind it. Nobody else had a problem maintaining that distance.

He was trying to be too clever, he tried to time it so that when everybody did go he would be doing 150mph whilst they were all doing 100mph
The underlined part is incorrect. It used to be the case that a car had to stay within 5 car lengths from the preceding car, but that is no longer in the rules. Only the race leader has to remain within a distance of 10 car lengths, until the moment the SC is preparing to come in and the racing allowed to recommence.
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by lucifers »

spiritone wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:12 am
Interesting conversations about restarts. First we seem to have a lot of F1 drivers on this forum. First your sitting in the fastest accelerating formula car on the planet. Two your siting in a car where your field of visions is blocked by the wing of the car in front of you. While the leader at the front may be going at a fairly constant speed the cars behind him are judging their speed by the car in frt of them. Those cars speed is not constant because the further you are from the front the more the constertina effect is happening. Because the straightaway is so long and bottas waiting till the last possible moment to accelerate the crash was inevitable. Solution???? Tricky. One thing we do know is the present method doesn't work a this track and i don't believe it's the drivers fault.

Standing restarts are just plain weird. Whatever work you have done up to that point in the race is thrown out the window. Not a fan.
agree

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Covalent »

lucifers wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:11 pm
spiritone wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:12 am
Interesting conversations about restarts. First we seem to have a lot of F1 drivers on this forum. First your sitting in the fastest accelerating formula car on the planet. Two your siting in a car where your field of visions is blocked by the wing of the car in front of you. While the leader at the front may be going at a fairly constant speed the cars behind him are judging their speed by the car in frt of them. Those cars speed is not constant because the further you are from the front the more the constertina effect is happening. Because the straightaway is so long and bottas waiting till the last possible moment to accelerate the crash was inevitable. Solution???? Tricky. One thing we do know is the present method doesn't work a this track and i don't believe it's the drivers fault.

Standing restarts are just plain weird. Whatever work you have done up to that point in the race is thrown out the window. Not a fan.
agree
Well what do you propose they do after a red flag, work out where the cars were prior to the incident and place them there at the restart?

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Badgeronimous
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

Covalent wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:14 pm
lucifers wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:11 pm
spiritone wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:12 am
Interesting conversations about restarts. First we seem to have a lot of F1 drivers on this forum. First your sitting in the fastest accelerating formula car on the planet. Two your siting in a car where your field of visions is blocked by the wing of the car in front of you. While the leader at the front may be going at a fairly constant speed the cars behind him are judging their speed by the car in frt of them. Those cars speed is not constant because the further you are from the front the more the constertina effect is happening. Because the straightaway is so long and bottas waiting till the last possible moment to accelerate the crash was inevitable. Solution???? Tricky. One thing we do know is the present method doesn't work a this track and i don't believe it's the drivers fault.

Standing restarts are just plain weird. Whatever work you have done up to that point in the race is thrown out the window. Not a fan.
agree
Well what do you propose they do after a red flag, work out where the cars were prior to the incident and place them there at the restart?
Did they not used to do this in the 90s? Aggregate timing if the race was red flagged after 25% distance or some weird rule along those lines - reckon it was ditched because it made the race impossible to follow.

Red flags are part of motorsport at all levels. Unlike the safety car, I don't think F1 use them excessively, and they are quite rare.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Schermerhorn »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:21 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:54 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:44 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:42 pm
Why did Bottas drop back to nearly 5 seconds behind Lewis on the last race?
He couldn't pass so dropped back to attempt a fastest lap.
But he crossed the line going into the last lap less than 2 seconds behind and then ended up being almost 5 seconds behind.

Maybe his heart just gave up?
Hamilton dropped in the fastest lap of the race on the penultimate lap 8 tenths quicker than Bottas managed and then that was all she wrote for Bottas.

Further proof that Hamilton just has too much for Bottas. It's a one man show out there, almost zero competition for Lewis.

I bet he sleeps like a baby at night.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

JN23
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by JN23 »

Question relating to the safety car lights going out quite late - what difference does this make? In this instance, wouldn't Bottas have waited as long as possible to restart the race in order to avoid giving the slipstream for a longer time?

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Greenman »

.

I see that the FIA are looking at Hamilton's tee-shirt !

And this after totally ignoring Leclerc driving around without a working safety harness.

Just why are the FIA so biased ?

.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by j man »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:48 pm
Question relating to the safety car lights going out quite late - what difference does this make? In this instance, wouldn't Bottas have waited as long as possible to restart the race in order to avoid giving the slipstream for a longer time?
My thought was that with earlier warning he could have dropped back from the Safety Car much sooner, and restarted the race before the final corner. Taking the final corner at racing speed would limit how close the other cars could get to him on the finish straight. Effectively it makes the restart more resemble a normal racing lap.

Incidentally I believe there is a rule for the design of new F1 tracks that says the start/finish straight is not allowed to be the longest straight on the circuit. I always wondered why that is, but it does help prevent this problem.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by JN23 »

j man wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:00 pm
JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:48 pm
Question relating to the safety car lights going out quite late - what difference does this make? In this instance, wouldn't Bottas have waited as long as possible to restart the race in order to avoid giving the slipstream for a longer time?
My thought was that with earlier warning he could have dropped back from the Safety Car much sooner, and restarted the race before the final corner. Taking the final corner at racing speed would limit how close the other cars could get to him on the finish straight. Effectively it makes the restart more resemble a normal racing lap.

Incidentally I believe there is a rule for the design of new F1 tracks that says the start/finish straight is not allowed to be the longest straight on the circuit. I always wondered why that is, but it does help prevent this problem.
Thanks :thumbup: your explanation makes sense.

Good point on the rule you mention, can't think of new circuits where start/finish straight is the longest (ignoring Baku as it's a street circuit).

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by pokerman »

j man wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:00 pm
JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:48 pm
Question relating to the safety car lights going out quite late - what difference does this make? In this instance, wouldn't Bottas have waited as long as possible to restart the race in order to avoid giving the slipstream for a longer time?
My thought was that with earlier warning he could have dropped back from the Safety Car much sooner, and restarted the race before the final corner. Taking the final corner at racing speed would limit how close the other cars could get to him on the finish straight. Effectively it makes the restart more resemble a normal racing lap.

Incidentally I believe there is a rule for the design of new F1 tracks that says the start/finish straight is not allowed to be the longest straight on the circuit. I always wondered why that is, but it does help prevent this problem.
Posting this here as well.

So the SC turning it's lights off late is a new thing introduced this year because it makes it harder for the leader to get a clean gap and makes for more exciting restarts, yeah we saw just how exciting, Masi denies this had anything to do with the multiple crash but as we can begin to see Masi just does what he is told to do by Liberty Media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Covalent »

Apparently Mercedes tried to warn the FIA about the risks involved with the safety car lights going off so late, but they just shrugged it off and said it's better for the show this way.
https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... t-20091321
The team said that the clearance after a safety car phase at the start and finish on this route was "a concern," admits Bottas. And: "You also said that they (the FIA; editor's note) will hold on to it because it's better for the show. As far as I can remember that was the answer."

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:48 pm
Apparently Mercedes tried to warn the FIA about the risks involved with the safety car lights going off so late, but they just shrugged it off and said it's better for the show this way.
https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... t-20091321
The team said that the clearance after a safety car phase at the start and finish on this route was "a concern," admits Bottas. And: "You also said that they (the FIA; editor's note) will hold on to it because it's better for the show. As far as I can remember that was the answer."
Masi is just a Liberty Media puppet, I can see why one poster likes to call the safety car, the spectacle car, Masi says he's not responsible for the collisions caused by the safety car, at times he's simply not believable.
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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:40 pm
Covalent wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:48 pm
Apparently Mercedes tried to warn the FIA about the risks involved with the safety car lights going off so late, but they just shrugged it off and said it's better for the show this way.
https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... t-20091321
The team said that the clearance after a safety car phase at the start and finish on this route was "a concern," admits Bottas. And: "You also said that they (the FIA; editor's note) will hold on to it because it's better for the show. As far as I can remember that was the answer."
Masi is just a Liberty Media puppet, I can see why one poster likes to call the safety car, the spectacle car, Masi says he's not responsible for the collisions caused by the safety car, at times he's simply not believable.
Even if the SC light was turned off earlier, it wont have prevented the accident as Bottas was always going to go as late as possible as to avoid being beaten into the first corner.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

If the leader did what the guys back in the pack were doing, accelerating and braking..... he would get a penalty.

Not sure what the rules say, but simply enforcing all drivers keeping a constant and predictable velocity prevents this happening again.

You get rolling starts/restarts on ovals all the time and the pack doesn't behave like that.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan GP Race thread

Post by Invade »



This is well worth the view.

The-Race also has a good analysis of the Mugello debacle.



It's very tricky to apportion blame here.

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