2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Harpo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:58 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:32 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:24 pm
Something odd with Vettel and Ferrari.

Lots you can criticise Vettel for, but lack of speed rarely has been one of them.

Like many others, I'm calling shennanigans.
Yeah, and I think drawing any conclusions on Vettel's ability from this season would be shortsighted. No way is he getting equal treatment.
What do Ferrari have to gain from not giving him equal treatment? And given as Leclerc was slightly better last year, in his first season for Ferrari and second in F1 why is it unbelievable he would extend his gap over Vettel? It's pretty much what anyone would logically expect.
Firstly, they gain by painting the picture that sacking Vettel was the right thing to do. Secondly, I believe it is more the case of neglect. Have you not seen the last few race weekends? He's had engine woes, brakes on fire, exceptionally poor strategy calls - what's to say Leclerc's not given preferential treatment on car development parts, and that the best engineers care more towards Leclerc's car?

And you know well enough yourself that rarely do young drivers improve by that much in qualifying in successive years. They were pretty even last year, no way does Leclerc suddenly have five tenths up on Vettel. Vettel and Leclerc are both top tier qualifiers - it would be nearly impossible for Leclerc to pull a further handful of tenths on a driver who can extract near maximum from the car.
You mean he could get the same treatment as Webber when both where at RBR ?
That's probably a pretty good comparison.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

mikeyg123
Posts: 17828
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Man, these yellow flags are ruining the climax of quali far to often. We need to find a solution for it.

Paolo_Lasardi
Posts: 2569
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Harpo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:58 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:32 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:24 pm
Something odd with Vettel and Ferrari.

Lots you can criticise Vettel for, but lack of speed rarely has been one of them.

Like many others, I'm calling shennanigans.
Yeah, and I think drawing any conclusions on Vettel's ability from this season would be shortsighted. No way is he getting equal treatment.
What do Ferrari have to gain from not giving him equal treatment? And given as Leclerc was slightly better last year, in his first season for Ferrari and second in F1 why is it unbelievable he would extend his gap over Vettel? It's pretty much what anyone would logically expect.
Firstly, they gain by painting the picture that sacking Vettel was the right thing to do. Secondly, I believe it is more the case of neglect. Have you not seen the last few race weekends? He's had engine woes, brakes on fire, exceptionally poor strategy calls - what's to say Leclerc's not given preferential treatment on car development parts, and that the best engineers care more towards Leclerc's car?

And you know well enough yourself that rarely do young drivers improve by that much in qualifying in successive years. They were pretty even last year, no way does Leclerc suddenly have five tenths up on Vettel. Vettel and Leclerc are both top tier qualifiers - it would be nearly impossible for Leclerc to pull a further handful of tenths on a driver who can extract near maximum from the car.
You mean he could get the same treatment as Webber when both where at RBR ?
True - maybe Vettel's performance reflects that he is finally getting equal treatment ( instead of the preferential treatment he was used to).

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

If that had happened to Hamilton I'd be fuming, Ocon passed Bottas on the preperation lap only then to spin and ruin Bottas' chance of pole.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

-K-
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:00 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by -K- »

Even if it was an unsafe release, I’m sure Max didn’t think it his fault when Red Bull unsafely released him a while ago, so why would this be Lance’s?

User avatar
purchville
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:33 am

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by purchville »

What an anticlimax
PF1 Pick 10 Competition:
- 6 victories (Italy '19, Mexico '18, Singapore '18, USA '17, USA '16, Mexico '16),
- 6 podiums
- 2013 Rookie of the Year
- 2014 Championship 6th position
- 2016 Championship 9th position

User avatar
purchville
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:33 am

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by purchville »

Which side of the track is pole? Inside line for turn 1? i.e. the bit with more rubber
PF1 Pick 10 Competition:
- 6 victories (Italy '19, Mexico '18, Singapore '18, USA '17, USA '16, Mexico '16),
- 6 podiums
- 2013 Rookie of the Year
- 2014 Championship 6th position
- 2016 Championship 9th position

mikeyg123
Posts: 17828
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Have to say when he isn't crashing Leclerc is doing an amazing job this season.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17828
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Good news for Bottas is that it is a very long run down to turn 1. He needs to make a good start and if he finds himself tucked up behind Lewis or alongside going into turn 1 he has to brake later no matter what. It's a simple as that.

KingVoid
Posts: 2852
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:18 pm
Good news for Bottas is that it is a very long run down to turn 1. He needs to make a good start and if he finds himself tucked up behind Lewis or alongside going into turn 1 he has to brake later no matter what. It's a simple as that.
I would be utterly astounded if Bottas does anything at the start.

Bigger chance of Max doing something.

Asphalt_World
Posts: 4953
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

People have to be careful about how they word things regarding Vettel and Ferrari this season. Within a couple of posts, Vettel is either being delibratly held back with older car parts, worse strategy, brakes that catch fire (because someone seems to assume this is perhaps because Ferrari wanted this to happen) and then we have comments about the team favouring Leclerc because he's currently doing a better job this season.

If Leclerc is simply driving far better than Vettel at present, which most people seem to think is happening, then it's hardly odd for a team to perhaps call strategy a little in his favour and perhaps give him new parts first. This happens in the sport all the time across teams. That said, I haven't read that this is always happening at Ferrari this year.

As for claiming it's a deliberate attempt to sabotage Vettel in a sneaky fashion, well, move along if you believe this, because you'll never enjoy the sport this year with Charles and Seb as team mates.
Instagram @simply_italian_cars

Asphalt_World
Posts: 4953
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

I think Russel keeping his foot to the floor whist taking to the gravel, was moment of qualifying for me. I really really hope he gets a competitive car in the next couple of year.
Instagram @simply_italian_cars

Bacus
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Bacus »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:30 pm
I think Russel keeping his foot to the floor whist taking to the gravel, was moment of qualifying for me. I really really hope he gets a competitive car in the next couple of year.
that was amazing, I was sure that lap was gone.
That moment kept his record intact - never being outqualified by a teammate.

WHoff78
Posts: 778
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by WHoff78 »

I expect there is some truth in both sides of the argument against seb. I wouldn't be surprised if leclerc is getting preferential treatment and more focus from the team, as he is after all the most likely to pull off a podium or strong result that Ferrari are looking for at a time they are clearly struggling. Vettel fans also have to recalibrate a little and accept that maybe there is truth in the argument that Vettel is not quite as quick as they thought. It only takes a tenth or two but the two things coupled together will compound and no doubt affect confidence. After all he was lacking in ultimate pace to Riccardo as well.

Perceptions are skewed more when Vettel has been on the other end of that preferential treatment for so much of his career.

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 3899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

The gap between Leclerc and Vettel is the same as the gap between Max and Albon. So either Leclerc is better than Verstappen or Albon is better than Vettel.

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Schermerhorn »

Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Schermerhorn »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:18 pm
Good news for Bottas is that it is a very long run down to turn 1. He needs to make a good start and if he finds himself tucked up behind Lewis or alongside going into turn 1 he has to brake later no matter what. It's a simple as that.
I would be utterly astounded if Bottas does anything at the start.

Bigger chance of Max doing something.

Bottas is Mark Webber Mk2....gets close to the front on Saturday and destroys his starts and throws it all away on a Sunday.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Or maybe Leclerc is a qualifying freak and this is a bigger part of the equation. He did have 7 pole positions in 2019 (to Seb's 2).


I heard his qualifying average over Vettel isn't far away from Max's over Albon.

Leclerc might be the best qualifier on the grid.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

My qualifying rankings so far for the year go:

1.Verstappen
2.Hamilton
3.Leclerc
4.Ricciardo
5.Russell

But I don't think Leclerc is any slower than the top two. It's just a little hard to gauge his performance sometimes given the performance of his car and the degree of Seb's issues or "misfortune" or "sabotage" or whatever theories one may have. On his day — and he has many of them — Leclerc is a qualifying beast.

(PS, race rankings...:

1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Ricciardo
...
7. Leclerc)


[[PPS, number of times drivers have scored 7 or higher out of 8 in qualifying:

Verstappen - 6
Hamilton - 4 (including two scores of 8 )
Leclerc - 4
Ricciardo - 3
Russell - 3]]

mikeyg123
Posts: 17828
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

I think if Hamilton is 2nd in quali rankings then Bottas can't be anywhere but 3rd. Leclerc's had two podiums in midfield cars. On race day he has to be up there.

Personally, in races I don't really see what Hamilton has done better than Verstappen. He's almost always running out on his own cruising up front and still managed to get two race penalties.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:05 pm
I think if Hamilton is 2nd in quali rankings then Bottas can't be anywhere but 3rd. Leclerc's had two podiums in midfield cars. On race day he has to be up there.

Personally, in races I don't really see what Hamilton has done better than Verstappen. He's almost always running out on his own cruising up front and still managed to get two race penalties.
I have him 6th. Hamilton has edged him more often but also pounded him into the ground twice at Spa and the Styrian GP. It's tight however from 3rd-6th. Bottas could have easily been third. However there's no doubt that Leclerc and Ricciardo have also been generally impressive in qualifying and in Bottas' bracket. Russell is a bit sketchy to judge because of his teammate benchmark - I may have given him some generous benefit of the doubt.

As for Hamilton and Verstappen, I dunno man. I see it as generally very tight between the two and this is the general opinion offerred up in almost all media ratings, not that they are the be all and end all of opinion - in fact many of their ratings often don't appear to make much sense to me especially going down the order.

Image

Credit to Marklar.


In the end I don't punish Hamilton for being out in front in a dominant car. He's put many splendid performances together - for example his drive in Spain was majestic. Also I don't get too high on Verstappen splitting the Mercs. I've given him very high scores but in a race where Bottas screws the start and goes down to P7 or whatever it was then I borderline expect there to be a good chance for a high performing RBR driver to hold on for P2 (Hungary). However the bottom line is I think that both drivers have had EXCELLENT seasons thus far in 2020.

I have not even the tiniest issue with anyone who puts Max P1.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17828
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:05 pm
I think if Hamilton is 2nd in quali rankings then Bottas can't be anywhere but 3rd. Leclerc's had two podiums in midfield cars. On race day he has to be up there.

Personally, in races I don't really see what Hamilton has done better than Verstappen. He's almost always running out on his own cruising up front and still managed to get two race penalties.
I have him 6th. Hamilton has edged him more often but also pounded him into the ground twice at Spa and the Styrian GP. It's tight however from 3rd-6th. Bottas could have easily been third. However there's no doubt that Leclerc and Ricciardo have also been generally impressive in qualifying and in Bottas' bracket. Russell is a bit sketchy to judge because of his teammate benchmark - I may have given him some generous benefit of the doubt.

As for Hamilton and Verstappen, I dunno man. I see it as generally very tight between the two and this is the general opinion offerred up in almost all media ratings, not that they are the be all and end all of opinion - in fact many of their ratings often don't appear to make much sense to me especially going down the order.

Image

Credit to Marklar.


In the end I don't punish Hamilton for being out in front in a dominant car. He's put many splendid performances together - for example his drive in Spain was majestic. Also I don't get too high on Verstappen splitting the Mercs. I've given him very high scores but in a race where Bottas screws the start and goes down to P7 or whatever it was then I borderline expect there to be a good chance for a high performing RBR driver to hold on for P2. However the bottom line is I think that both drivers have had EXCELLENT seasons thus far in 2020.

I have not even the tiniest issue with anyone who puts Max P1.
I think like 2014-16 Hamilton's performance is very hard to judge. He just doesn't really have any competition. It's like trying to judge the Williams drivers last season.

I put Verstappen ahead because I think Hamilton has made more mistakes despite having less reason or opportunity to make mistakes if that makes sense. He also doesn't have the same advantage over his teammate. That might not be fair but there is just so little to go on.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:05 pm
I think if Hamilton is 2nd in quali rankings then Bottas can't be anywhere but 3rd. Leclerc's had two podiums in midfield cars. On race day he has to be up there.

Personally, in races I don't really see what Hamilton has done better than Verstappen. He's almost always running out on his own cruising up front and still managed to get two race penalties.
Final point. On Leclerc, I do agree that he should be handsomely rewarded in such a ranking based on the heights he has reached, despite his errors and incidents. I do have another way of scoring this which is lopsided towards high level performance, and Leclerc in that case is actually 3rd in the most extreme form of my top level performance ranking (I actually have several rankings, and also a best performances minus 2 ranking, as well as a best-10 performances ranking). I have an average and best performance rankings which mitigates some of the disasters which cancels out great performances as an average. It's something I need to think about a bit in general regarding the sort of penalty and gradation of ranking bad performances should be weighted with.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:18 pm


I think like 2014-16 Hamilton's performance is very hard to judge. He just doesn't really have any competition. It's like trying to judge the Williams drivers last season.

I put Verstappen ahead because I think Hamilton has made more mistakes despite having less reason or opportunity to make mistakes if that makes sense. He also doesn't have the same advantage over his teammate. That might not be fair but there is just so little to go on.
Yeah that's all valid. Many make excuses for Albon and I don't think he's as good as Bottas, and there are reports that the cars aren't quite the same. But Max is OBLITERATING Albon, and that's to his credit. Max may well be the best driver and it's compelling between him and Lewis, but unfortunately we don't have the best platform to really see who is better because of the Merc rocketship.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17828
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:18 pm


I think like 2014-16 Hamilton's performance is very hard to judge. He just doesn't really have any competition. It's like trying to judge the Williams drivers last season.

I put Verstappen ahead because I think Hamilton has made more mistakes despite having less reason or opportunity to make mistakes if that makes sense. He also doesn't have the same advantage over his teammate. That might not be fair but there is just so little to go on.
Yeah that's all valid. Many make excuses for Albon and I don't think he's as good as Bottas, and there are reports that the cars aren't quite the same. But Max is OBLITERATING Albon, and that's to his credit. Max may well be the best driver and it's compelling between him and Lewis, but unfortunately we don't have the best platform to really see who is better because of the Merc rocketship.
:thumbup:

Harpo
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Harpo »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:26 pm
People have to be careful about how they word things regarding Vettel and Ferrari this season. Within a couple of posts, Vettel is either being delibratly held back with older car parts, worse strategy, brakes that catch fire (because someone seems to assume this is perhaps because Ferrari wanted this to happen) and then we have comments about the team favouring Leclerc because he's currently doing a better job this season.

If Leclerc is simply driving far better than Vettel at present, which most people seem to think is happening, then it's hardly odd for a team to perhaps call strategy a little in his favour and perhaps give him new parts first. This happens in the sport all the time across teams. That said, I haven't read that this is always happening at Ferrari this year.

As for claiming it's a deliberate attempt to sabotage Vettel in a sneaky fashion, well, move along if you believe this, because you'll never enjoy the sport this year with Charles and Seb as team mates.
For the 1st half of last year, Vettel benefitted from his n°1 status. The only result Ferrari could notice is that they sacrified more than once Leclerc's race for no better result from Vettel. What I will say may seem harsh, but Vettel earned his current n°2 status.
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

kleefton
Posts: 4009
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by kleefton »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:38 pm
The gap between Leclerc and Vettel is the same as the gap between Max and Albon. So either Leclerc is better than Verstappen or Albon is better than Vettel.
You must mean for today only and not over the season? Vettel is typically within 3 tenths of Leclerc. Today he got demolished no doubt about that. He did outqualify leclerc in the wet though. Albon has no hope in hell of coming close to Verstappen. Anywhere else on the grid his seat would be in danger and he would be headed out of the sport but Redbull accepts his performance deficit. I wonder why... Anyway, back to Leclerc vs Vettel. To me there is not much favoritism going on, Leclerc is just handling the car better than Vettel. Simple as that. Hamilton vs Bottas is close imo because the car is so good that even a great driver cannot make that much of a difference with it. My 2 cents.

Asphalt_World
Posts: 4953
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Harpo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:49 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:26 pm
People have to be careful about how they word things regarding Vettel and Ferrari this season. Within a couple of posts, Vettel is either being delibratly held back with older car parts, worse strategy, brakes that catch fire (because someone seems to assume this is perhaps because Ferrari wanted this to happen) and then we have comments about the team favouring Leclerc because he's currently doing a better job this season.

If Leclerc is simply driving far better than Vettel at present, which most people seem to think is happening, then it's hardly odd for a team to perhaps call strategy a little in his favour and perhaps give him new parts first. This happens in the sport all the time across teams. That said, I haven't read that this is always happening at Ferrari this year.

As for claiming it's a deliberate attempt to sabotage Vettel in a sneaky fashion, well, move along if you believe this, because you'll never enjoy the sport this year with Charles and Seb as team mates.
For the 1st half of last year, Vettel benefitted from his n°1 status. The only result Ferrari could notice is that they sacrified more than once Leclerc's race for no better result from Vettel. What I will say may seem harsh, but Vettel earned his current n°2 status.
I tend to agree with you.
Instagram @simply_italian_cars

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Schermerhorn »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:04 pm
Harpo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:49 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:26 pm
People have to be careful about how they word things regarding Vettel and Ferrari this season. Within a couple of posts, Vettel is either being delibratly held back with older car parts, worse strategy, brakes that catch fire (because someone seems to assume this is perhaps because Ferrari wanted this to happen) and then we have comments about the team favouring Leclerc because he's currently doing a better job this season.

If Leclerc is simply driving far better than Vettel at present, which most people seem to think is happening, then it's hardly odd for a team to perhaps call strategy a little in his favour and perhaps give him new parts first. This happens in the sport all the time across teams. That said, I haven't read that this is always happening at Ferrari this year.

As for claiming it's a deliberate attempt to sabotage Vettel in a sneaky fashion, well, move along if you believe this, because you'll never enjoy the sport this year with Charles and Seb as team mates.
For the 1st half of last year, Vettel benefitted from his n°1 status. The only result Ferrari could notice is that they sacrified more than once Leclerc's race for no better result from Vettel. What I will say may seem harsh, but Vettel earned his current n°2 status.
I tend to agree with you.
Me too.

That said, I think Vettel's ceiling is (still) much higher than Leclerc's but his operating window much much much smaller.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:04 pm
Harpo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:49 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:26 pm
People have to be careful about how they word things regarding Vettel and Ferrari this season. Within a couple of posts, Vettel is either being delibratly held back with older car parts, worse strategy, brakes that catch fire (because someone seems to assume this is perhaps because Ferrari wanted this to happen) and then we have comments about the team favouring Leclerc because he's currently doing a better job this season.

If Leclerc is simply driving far better than Vettel at present, which most people seem to think is happening, then it's hardly odd for a team to perhaps call strategy a little in his favour and perhaps give him new parts first. This happens in the sport all the time across teams. That said, I haven't read that this is always happening at Ferrari this year.

As for claiming it's a deliberate attempt to sabotage Vettel in a sneaky fashion, well, move along if you believe this, because you'll never enjoy the sport this year with Charles and Seb as team mates.
For the 1st half of last year, Vettel benefitted from his n°1 status. The only result Ferrari could notice is that they sacrified more than once Leclerc's race for no better result from Vettel. What I will say may seem harsh, but Vettel earned his current n°2 status.
I tend to agree with you.
Me too.

That said, I think Vettel's ceiling is (still) much higher than Leclerc's but his operating window much much much smaller.
Leclerc has dragged this Ferrari to podiums Alonso style. What would have Vettel done, won the races?

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:42 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:18 pm
Good news for Bottas is that it is a very long run down to turn 1. He needs to make a good start and if he finds himself tucked up behind Lewis or alongside going into turn 1 he has to brake later no matter what. It's a simple as that.
I would be utterly astounded if Bottas does anything at the start.

Bigger chance of Max doing something.

Bottas is Mark Webber Mk2....gets close to the front on Saturday and destroys his starts and throws it all away on a Sunday.
Well it's for Bottas to stop trying to jump the starts, he was moving before the lights went out last time and then had to abort, it's happened a few times now.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Schermerhorn »

Invade wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:16 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:04 pm
Harpo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:49 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:26 pm
People have to be careful about how they word things regarding Vettel and Ferrari this season. Within a couple of posts, Vettel is either being delibratly held back with older car parts, worse strategy, brakes that catch fire (because someone seems to assume this is perhaps because Ferrari wanted this to happen) and then we have comments about the team favouring Leclerc because he's currently doing a better job this season.

If Leclerc is simply driving far better than Vettel at present, which most people seem to think is happening, then it's hardly odd for a team to perhaps call strategy a little in his favour and perhaps give him new parts first. This happens in the sport all the time across teams. That said, I haven't read that this is always happening at Ferrari this year.

As for claiming it's a deliberate attempt to sabotage Vettel in a sneaky fashion, well, move along if you believe this, because you'll never enjoy the sport this year with Charles and Seb as team mates.
For the 1st half of last year, Vettel benefitted from his n°1 status. The only result Ferrari could notice is that they sacrified more than once Leclerc's race for no better result from Vettel. What I will say may seem harsh, but Vettel earned his current n°2 status.
I tend to agree with you.
Me too.

That said, I think Vettel's ceiling is (still) much higher than Leclerc's but his operating window much much much smaller.
Leclerc has dragged this Ferrari to podiums Alonso style. What would have Vettel done, won the races?
If the car was or wasn't in his operating window?

If it wasn't....hopeless

If it was....higher than Charlie

Genuine opinion here
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

Rockie
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:44 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
This keeps getting repeated over and over again and its actually false, today's cars even when fully trimmed out still have more downforce than the blown diffuser cars but people keep repeating this falsehood.

What Vettel is suffering from is stability under braking where the car is moving around, which Binotto talked about.

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:25 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:44 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
This keeps getting repeated over and over again and its actually false, today's cars even when fully trimmed out still have more downforce than the blown diffuser cars but people keep repeating this falsehood.

What Vettel is suffering from is stability under braking where the car is moving around, which Binotto talked about.
The EBD cars were easier to drive, the engines had little power, the Ferrari is slow in a straight line so has to be trimmed out, that means removing downforce, if you take downforce off the rear end then that naturally will make it more ubstable under braking.

Last time out I'm sure I heard Vettel asking for more downforce during the weekend, more downforce than what Leclerc was using.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 881
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Scotland & Abu Dhabi

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:30 am
Rockie wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:25 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:44 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
This keeps getting repeated over and over again and its actually false, today's cars even when fully trimmed out still have more downforce than the blown diffuser cars but people keep repeating this falsehood.

What Vettel is suffering from is stability under braking where the car is moving around, which Binotto talked about.
The EBD cars were easier to drive, the engines had little power, the Ferrari is slow in a straight line so has to be trimmed out, that means removing downforce, if you take downforce off the rear end then that naturally will make it more ubstable under braking.

Last time out I'm sure I heard Vettel asking for more downforce during the weekend, more downforce than what Leclerc was using.
Less powerful engines doesn't necessarily mean easier to drive. Surely?

100bhp or 1000bhp, the drivers are taking them to the limit. Then it comes down to grip, drivability, etc. Really, I wouldn't say power

EBD was a technique that was counter to what you want to do naturally and had to be learned. All drivers would manage to, but some better than others.

I couldn't tell you what's easier to drive as I've no practical experience of an EBD car, or today's car generating the most down force ever in F1. Both will have there niches and techniques.

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:06 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:30 am
Rockie wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:25 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:44 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
This keeps getting repeated over and over again and its actually false, today's cars even when fully trimmed out still have more downforce than the blown diffuser cars but people keep repeating this falsehood.

What Vettel is suffering from is stability under braking where the car is moving around, which Binotto talked about.
The EBD cars were easier to drive, the engines had little power, the Ferrari is slow in a straight line so has to be trimmed out, that means removing downforce, if you take downforce off the rear end then that naturally will make it more ubstable under braking.

Last time out I'm sure I heard Vettel asking for more downforce during the weekend, more downforce than what Leclerc was using.
Less powerful engines doesn't necessarily mean easier to drive. Surely?

100bhp or 1000bhp, the drivers are taking them to the limit. Then it comes down to grip, drivability, etc. Really, I wouldn't say power

EBD was a technique that was counter to what you want to do naturally and had to be learned. All drivers would manage to, but some better than others.

I couldn't tell you what's easier to drive as I've no practical experience of an EBD car, or today's car generating the most down force ever in F1. Both will have there niches and techniques.
When Vettel went from the EBD to the Hybrid cars in early tests he was constantly spinning the car, so I venture what might be more difficult.

The cars today are very heavy and when you start to lose the back end it often can result in a spin, I would venture it would be very hard to spin a EBD car, when you ask for more power it also generates more grip, opposite to what you would have with a Hybrid car.

How many times did we see Vettel have isolated spins or crashes in the EBD cars as opposed to the hybrid cars, I would suggest that might show which cars might be more difficult to drive.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rockie
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:30 am
Rockie wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:25 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:44 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
This keeps getting repeated over and over again and its actually false, today's cars even when fully trimmed out still have more downforce than the blown diffuser cars but people keep repeating this falsehood.

What Vettel is suffering from is stability under braking where the car is moving around, which Binotto talked about.
The EBD cars were easier to drive, the engines had little power, the Ferrari is slow in a straight line so has to be trimmed out, that means removing downforce, if you take downforce off the rear end then that naturally will make it more ubstable under braking.

Last time out I'm sure I heard Vettel asking for more downforce during the weekend, more downforce than what Leclerc was using.
You get corrected when you say something wrong, instead of accepting it, then research more about what you were corrected on you start another argument of something you know nothing about.

EBD cars were not easy to drive, Friday young drivers stepped down from those cars trying to catch their breath unlike this days where they jump in the car and are up to speed quickly.

Can you point us in the direction of where you heard the highlighted part?

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:30 am
Rockie wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:25 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:44 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Unless Vettel is now completely mentally and physically shot, no way is there that much of a gap between those two in reality.

Do they have "equal" cars? This is Ferrari afterall, more focused on silly games, underhandedess, vendettas and politics than actual racing.....

No doubt Charlie is the faster of the two these days but other factors must be at play here....
Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
This keeps getting repeated over and over again and its actually false, today's cars even when fully trimmed out still have more downforce than the blown diffuser cars but people keep repeating this falsehood.

What Vettel is suffering from is stability under braking where the car is moving around, which Binotto talked about.
The EBD cars were easier to drive, the engines had little power, the Ferrari is slow in a straight line so has to be trimmed out, that means removing downforce, if you take downforce off the rear end then that naturally will make it more ubstable under braking.

Last time out I'm sure I heard Vettel asking for more downforce during the weekend, more downforce than what Leclerc was using.
You get corrected when you say something wrong, instead of accepting it, then research more about what you were corrected on you start another argument of something you know nothing about.

EBD cars were not easy to drive, Friday young drivers stepped down from those cars trying to catch their breath unlike this days where they jump in the car and are up to speed quickly.

Can you point us in the direction of where you heard the highlighted part?
I only have to look at the amount of times that Vettel spins to assume the hybrid cars are harder to drive, well at least for Vettel.

It was during one of the practice sessions when they went to Vettel's onboard, it's not the first time this year that I've heard of Vettel needing to run more downforce than Leclerc.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rockie
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:36 pm
Rockie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:30 am
Rockie wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:25 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:44 pm

Vettel simply can't drive the car, the car needs to be trimmed out for maximum performance but Vettel needs a planted rear end.
This keeps getting repeated over and over again and its actually false, today's cars even when fully trimmed out still have more downforce than the blown diffuser cars but people keep repeating this falsehood.

What Vettel is suffering from is stability under braking where the car is moving around, which Binotto talked about.
The EBD cars were easier to drive, the engines had little power, the Ferrari is slow in a straight line so has to be trimmed out, that means removing downforce, if you take downforce off the rear end then that naturally will make it more ubstable under braking.

Last time out I'm sure I heard Vettel asking for more downforce during the weekend, more downforce than what Leclerc was using.
You get corrected when you say something wrong, instead of accepting it, then research more about what you were corrected on you start another argument of something you know nothing about.

EBD cars were not easy to drive, Friday young drivers stepped down from those cars trying to catch their breath unlike this days where they jump in the car and are up to speed quickly.

Can you point us in the direction of where you heard the highlighted part?
I only have to look at the amount of times that Vettel spins to assume the hybrid cars are harder to drive, well at least for Vettel.

It was during one of the practice sessions when they went to Vettel's onboard, it's not the first time this year that I've heard of Vettel needing to run more downforce than Leclerc.
Ah yes the humour of a 6 year old when caught in a lie, and then proceeds to tell another one to get out of the first, you have still not provided where you heard it as I watched the same practice on skyf1 and nothing of such was said.

Post Reply