Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

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Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Vettel
26
79%
Stroll
7
21%
A tie decided on countback
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 33

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Alienturnedhuman
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Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

2 years ago this poll couldn't have been asked with a straight face. But Stroll's lack of burdens have allowed him the freedom to develop without the stress of being axed, and he will be the established driver in the team. While Vettel should regain some of his mojo after leaving the politically toxic environment of the current Ferrari team, and he *should* be the faster driver.

Lance Stroll is currently 4th in the 2020 WDC, comfortably ahead of Perez (and is ahead if you don't include his results for the races Perez missed) - which is probably not something people expected.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Exediron »

Should be Vettel. Frankly, I'll be shocked if it's not. Stroll is better than a lot of people give him credit for, but no way is he better than Sebastian Vettel -- and I don't expect Vettel to stand for anything that even remotely smacks of unequal treatment. He'll have made sure of that before he signed.
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Vettel is the driver they will build the team around for the next few seasons. It's an amazing opportunity for Stroll to build his reputation, but I'd be absolutely astonished if Vettel doesn't handily outpoint him.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by DOLOMITE »

The inevitable question They end up close, maybe even Stroll wins out. What's the verdict then? Confirmation that Vettel was a one-hit-double-diffuser Wonder? Stroll is a LOT better than he's given credit for? Or Conspiracy at Team Nepotism?
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by JN23 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:04 am
The inevitable question They end up close, maybe even Stroll wins out. What's the verdict then? Confirmation that Vettel was a one-hit-double-diffuser Wonder? Stroll is a LOT better than he's given credit for? Or Conspiracy at Team Nepotism?
All of the above? :)

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Harpo »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:04 am
The inevitable question They end up close, maybe even Stroll wins out. What's the verdict then? Confirmation that Vettel was a one-hit-double-diffuser Wonder? Stroll is a LOT better than he's given credit for? Or Conspiracy at Team Nepotism?
I wrote it elsewhere : If the team was still named Racing Point, they would never have hired Vettel... Vettel, the 4 times WDC, is (also, or first and foremost ?) here as advertising poster (the standing of the brand, if you prefer) for Aston Martin, thing that neither Stroll nor Perez could be. So if Stroll wins out, it won't be because of your third point.
The other 2 points will remain valid, if you ask me, whatever the outcome.
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I am one who thinks Stroll is very under rated. IMO, this season he has shown that he is at least decent now and sometimes can be very solid. Given he's got the money behind him, that more than justifies the reason for him being here. And at the decent level he's now at, I think he's good enough to deserve to stay in F1 and will still keep improving - he's still incredibly young. Vettel was arguably the best driver on the grid the last season he changed to a team that he was comfortable with. I think Vettel does seem to be a quick but error prone driver when he's not entirely comfortable. But when things are right for him, I think he's close or at Hamilton's level. He may have another chance to impress, but we will see. I do expect he'll be better than Stroll though unless Stroll really does improve by some margin again - which could be possible.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by MistaVega23 »

'A tie decided on countback' :lol: This definitely WON'T have shades of Lewis v Fernando to it!

Gone for Vettel. No-brainer.
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by DOLOMITE »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:20 pm
I am one who thinks Stroll is very under rated. IMO, this season he has shown that he is at least decent now and sometimes can be very solid. Given he's got the money behind him, that more than justifies the reason for him being here. And at the decent level he's now at, I think he's good enough to deserve to stay in F1 and will still keep improving - he's still incredibly young. Vettel was arguably the best driver on the grid the last season he changed to a team that he was comfortable with. I think Vettel does seem to be a quick but error prone driver when he's not entirely comfortable. But when things are right for him, I think he's close or at Hamilton's level. He may have another chance to impress, but we will see. I do expect he'll be better than Stroll though unless Stroll really does improve by some margin again - which could be possible.
I agree. Not saying he's a WDC in waiting or anything but he's been competitive from the outset against decent enough teammates. Sure his Dads money got him the drive, but his pre-F1 CV is as good if not better than some of the drivers, with Championships in F4 and F3.
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Harpo »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
Something has gone wrong in the universe anyway... It would just be a confirmation.
I voted Stroll, just to balance the over optimists who think it will be a walk in the park for VetteL
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments. Next year is not here yet. Stroll is still young and has obviously improved this year and still has potential to improve further. Why would it be completely wrong if Stroll beats Vettel? It could even be the case that it is just that Stroll actually is very good next year and Vettel is actually back to being decent again. If Stroll keeps improving, him beating a driver doesn't make them terrible.

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Invade
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Invade »

Vettel. He's still a fair bit better than Stroll and will be going forward.

PS, Would very much like to know who have picked Stroll though. Not impossible but quite bold.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Harpo »

Invade wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:52 pm
Vettel. He's still a fair bit better than Stroll and will be going forward.

PS, Would very much like to know who have picked Stroll though. Not impossible but quite bold.
I was going to tell you to look 2 posts above yours, when I noticed somebody added a vote to mine...
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by DFWdude »

The only thing better than dragging trainloads of sponsorship money with you (like Perez) is having daddy buy the team for you.

I think Stroll has made the most in having a safe place to learn and progress. Few other drivers get such a safe haven. So far, so good.

But, having progressed well to date, Stroll is no Vettel, not by a long shot. With a competitive car in 2021, Vettel will be looking to redeem his driving reputation, or put Ferrari to shame... most likely both.

That will incidentally stress Lance to the max.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Mayox »

Vettel is not that bad as his last 2 seasons, he has way more raw speed and talent than Stroll so the outcome is quite obvious for me. What is the intension of this move? Maybe Strolls belive Vettel is washed up driver but still 4x WDC so beating him may build some reputation for Lance? no idea...

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Exediron »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments...
If Stroll beats Vettel I think it will be quite a poor look for the sport. That would put Vettel's lifetime teammate tally back into the red, and mean that he has never beaten a driver younger than himself; his teammate victories would include a washout from the sport, Mark Webber, and an aging Kimi Raikkonen when he had clear #1 status.

Like it or not, Vettel is the third most successful F1 driver of all time, and a four-time world championship. There are already questions over how good he really was; if he gets knocked off by yet another teammate -- and one who is definitely not rated at the top -- it will just reinforce the message that one of the statistical greats of F1 is anything but.

Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Rockie »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments...
If Stroll beats Vettel I think it will be quite a poor look for the sport. That would put Vettel's lifetime teammate tally back into the red, and mean that he has never beaten a driver younger than himself; his teammate victories would include a washout from the sport, Mark Webber, and an aging Kimi Raikkonen when he had clear #1 status.

Like it or not, Vettel is the third most successful F1 driver of all time, and a four-time world championship. There are already questions over how good he really was; if he gets knocked off by yet another teammate -- and one who is definitely not rated at the top -- it will just reinforce the message that one of the statistical greats of F1 is anything but.

Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Vettel >>>>> Stroll

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:37 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments...
If Stroll beats Vettel I think it will be quite a poor look for the sport. That would put Vettel's lifetime teammate tally back into the red, and mean that he has never beaten a driver younger than himself; his teammate victories would include a washout from the sport, Mark Webber, and an aging Kimi Raikkonen when he had clear #1 status.

Like it or not, Vettel is the third most successful F1 driver of all time, and a four-time world championship. There are already questions over how good he really was; if he gets knocked off by yet another teammate -- and one who is definitely not rated at the top -- it will just reinforce the message that one of the statistical greats of F1 is anything but.

Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!
Lots of drivers have won in car that isn't the best. Happens literally every season.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by DOLOMITE »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:37 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments...
If Stroll beats Vettel I think it will be quite a poor look for the sport. That would put Vettel's lifetime teammate tally back into the red, and mean that he has never beaten a driver younger than himself; his teammate victories would include a washout from the sport, Mark Webber, and an aging Kimi Raikkonen when he had clear #1 status.

Like it or not, Vettel is the third most successful F1 driver of all time, and a four-time world championship. There are already questions over how good he really was; if he gets knocked off by yet another teammate -- and one who is definitely not rated at the top -- it will just reinforce the message that one of the statistical greats of F1 is anything but.

Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments. Next year is not here yet. Stroll is still young and has obviously improved this year and still has potential to improve further. Why would it be completely wrong if Stroll beats Vettel? It could even be the case that it is just that Stroll actually is very good next year and Vettel is actually back to being decent again. If Stroll keeps improving, him beating a driver doesn't make them terrible.
Does that really work, if you practice enough then you can beat anyone?
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Invade »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:26 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments. Next year is not here yet. Stroll is still young and has obviously improved this year and still has potential to improve further. Why would it be completely wrong if Stroll beats Vettel? It could even be the case that it is just that Stroll actually is very good next year and Vettel is actually back to being decent again. If Stroll keeps improving, him beating a driver doesn't make them terrible.
Does that really work, if you practice enough then you can beat anyone?
Well I believe it's his theory for Bottas maybe eventually overcoming Hamilton or at least being very close — something about Bottas having more to gain in improvement and thus eventually challenging him. I reckon for that to happen, Hamilton's form has to substantially dip and he needs to be in considerable decline.

Maybe Stroll can magically put in the practice and utterly annihilate Sebby because practice makes perfect, thus he just needs to practice more and harder than his teammate? It could happen :?: :!: :?:

The special drivers have a ceiling of performance that the vast majority of drivers will just never reach, or only rarely. But then again, is Vettel "special" :?:

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
Depends what you mean by beat. I fully expect Vettel to crush the qualifying battle and finish ahead far more often.

As for the final standings, the thing is... Stroll tends to luck into good results. He nearly beat Massa in 2017 because of Baku despite not being anywhere near him all season. He’s also beating Perez this season despite the fact that Perez is the better and quicker driver.

But if we get 20 races next season and Aston Martin is a competitive car, then there’s no way Vettel will lose unless he gets COVID or something. Luck can only take you so far.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by tootsie323 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:37 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments...
... Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!
Lots of drivers have won in car that isn't the best. Happens literally every season.
Even last weekend...
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by SteveW »

I used to think Lace Stroll didn't deserve his seat in F1. Yes, he had won championships leading up to F1, but they were skewed in my opinion due to the teams being either the best around or teammate's not really allowed to challenge. I thought Williams were crazy to sign him when they did, despite the money that came with him.

I fully agree with a lot of what others have already said though, that due to his situation of not really being under any pressure of losing his seat at any point in his career so far, that has taken a lot of pressure of him personally and it's clear that it's helped him to grow. I'm not saying he's a top tier driver, and to be honest I doubt he ever will be - but he's come a long way from the slow kid that started back in 2017 and he's still only in his fourth year so has room to improve more. He does deserve his seat now I think.

Still think Vettel will better him over the course of a year though - I'd be VERY surprised if that doesn't happen.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Invade wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:26 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments. Next year is not here yet. Stroll is still young and has obviously improved this year and still has potential to improve further. Why would it be completely wrong if Stroll beats Vettel? It could even be the case that it is just that Stroll actually is very good next year and Vettel is actually back to being decent again. If Stroll keeps improving, him beating a driver doesn't make them terrible.
Does that really work, if you practice enough then you can beat anyone?
Well I believe it's his theory for Bottas maybe eventually overcoming Hamilton or at least being very close — something about Bottas having more to gain in improvement and thus eventually challenging him. I reckon for that to happen, Hamilton's form has to substantially dip and he needs to be in considerable decline.

Maybe Stroll can magically put in the practice and utterly annihilate Sebby because practice makes perfect, thus he just needs to practice more and harder than his teammate? It could happen :?: :!: :?:

The special drivers have a ceiling of performance that the vast majority of drivers will just never reach, or only rarely. But then again, is Vettel "special" :?:
I don't think I've mentioned the possibility of Bottas actually getting on Hamilton's level this year. At least I've only mentioned he'd beat him if Hamilton faded or had worse luck, which could be possible as his peak can't last forever. Hamilton also seems to have better luck than Bottas every season by at least one DNF or unfortunate out of the points race for Bottas. It would have not looked quite as bad for Bottas had that been the other way round in some of those seasons. I did think last year that Bottas still had the chance to improve - but I do think that he's not really going to any more. So in the comments I've made this year saying Bottas still has the chance to beat Hamilton is purely down to the fact that Hamilton may not heep this form forever. It's not likely, but it is possible.

Bottas joined Mercedes When he was nearly 30. Stroll improved this year at his team when he's only 22. If there is a sign of improvement from Stroll - I think it could keep going that direction and he's got a long time before he may reach his peak. None of this is for certain but it is entirely possible. If he continues looking good this year or actually keeps getting better, beating Vettel shouldn't automatically mean it is terrible for Vettel.

Anyway. I think Vettel is much more likely to beat Stroll - just don't necessarily think it is a bad think if Vettel gets beaten as Stroll could well have improved.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:53 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
Depends what you mean by beat. I fully expect Vettel to crush the qualifying battle and finish ahead far more often.

As for the final standings, the thing is... Stroll tends to luck into good results. He nearly beat Massa in 2017 because of Baku despite not being anywhere near him all season. He’s also beating Perez this season despite the fact that Perez is the better and quicker driver.

But if we get 20 races next season and Aston Martin is a competitive car, then there’s no way Vettel will lose unless he gets COVID or something. Luck can only take you so far.
Yeah there is that, generally speaking I guess I was thinking that Vettel should have enough in his locker that Stroll won't be able to stay close enough were bad luck could sway things.
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

SteveW wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:58 am
I used to think Lace Stroll didn't deserve his seat in F1. Yes, he had won championships leading up to F1, but they were skewed in my opinion due to the teams being either the best around or teammate's not really allowed to challenge. I thought Williams were crazy to sign him when they did, despite the money that came with him.

I fully agree with a lot of what others have already said though, that due to his situation of not really being under any pressure of losing his seat at any point in his career so far, that has taken a lot of pressure of him personally and it's clear that it's helped him to grow. I'm not saying he's a top tier driver, and to be honest I doubt he ever will be - but he's come a long way from the slow kid that started back in 2017 and he's still only in his fourth year so has room to improve more. He does deserve his seat now I think.

Still think Vettel will better him over the course of a year though - I'd be VERY surprised if that doesn't happen.
There's a lot of drivers that could come into F1 and do a reasonable job, a question of Stroll would be would you consider him one of the 20 best single seater drivers in the world?
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by SteveW »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:50 am
SteveW wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:58 am
I used to think Lace Stroll didn't deserve his seat in F1. Yes, he had won championships leading up to F1, but they were skewed in my opinion due to the teams being either the best around or teammate's not really allowed to challenge. I thought Williams were crazy to sign him when they did, despite the money that came with him.

I fully agree with a lot of what others have already said though, that due to his situation of not really being under any pressure of losing his seat at any point in his career so far, that has taken a lot of pressure of him personally and it's clear that it's helped him to grow. I'm not saying he's a top tier driver, and to be honest I doubt he ever will be - but he's come a long way from the slow kid that started back in 2017 and he's still only in his fourth year so has room to improve more. He does deserve his seat now I think.

Still think Vettel will better him over the course of a year though - I'd be VERY surprised if that doesn't happen.
There's a lot of drivers that could come into F1 and do a reasonable job, a question of Stroll would be would you consider him one of the 20 best single seater drivers in the world?
Probably not. But the same could be said for Grosjean, Magnussen and many others who have come and gone before them.

Put it this way, four years into his F1 career I probably wouldn't consider him one of the 20 WORST F1 drivers that we've had over the years. In his first year I honestly thought he was heading for that category......

pokerman
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

SteveW wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:39 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:50 am
SteveW wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:58 am
I used to think Lace Stroll didn't deserve his seat in F1. Yes, he had won championships leading up to F1, but they were skewed in my opinion due to the teams being either the best around or teammate's not really allowed to challenge. I thought Williams were crazy to sign him when they did, despite the money that came with him.

I fully agree with a lot of what others have already said though, that due to his situation of not really being under any pressure of losing his seat at any point in his career so far, that has taken a lot of pressure of him personally and it's clear that it's helped him to grow. I'm not saying he's a top tier driver, and to be honest I doubt he ever will be - but he's come a long way from the slow kid that started back in 2017 and he's still only in his fourth year so has room to improve more. He does deserve his seat now I think.

Still think Vettel will better him over the course of a year though - I'd be VERY surprised if that doesn't happen.
There's a lot of drivers that could come into F1 and do a reasonable job, a question of Stroll would be would you consider him one of the 20 best single seater drivers in the world?
Probably not. But the same could be said for Grosjean, Magnussen and many others who have come and gone before them.

Put it this way, four years into his F1 career I probably wouldn't consider him one of the 20 WORST F1 drivers that we've had over the years. In his first year I honestly thought he was heading for that category......
F1 has been on the go for 70 years now, that's not exactly an endorsement, also Grosjean and KMag also have their critics and their seats are not guaranteed unlike Stroll.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by mikeyg123 »

It will be a sad day for F1 if it turns out that the cars are so easy to drive a driver like Stroll can be nearly as fast as Vettel.

Rockie
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:37 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
I just don't get these sort of comments...
If Stroll beats Vettel I think it will be quite a poor look for the sport. That would put Vettel's lifetime teammate tally back into the red, and mean that he has never beaten a driver younger than himself; his teammate victories would include a washout from the sport, Mark Webber, and an aging Kimi Raikkonen when he had clear #1 status.

Like it or not, Vettel is the third most successful F1 driver of all time, and a four-time world championship. There are already questions over how good he really was; if he gets knocked off by yet another teammate -- and one who is definitely not rated at the top -- it will just reinforce the message that one of the statistical greats of F1 is anything but.

Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!
Lots of drivers have won in car that isn't the best. Happens literally every season.
Asides Vettel and Maldonaldo on pure pace, You can name the lots I am actually interested.

mikeyg123
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:22 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:37 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 pm


I just don't get these sort of comments...
If Stroll beats Vettel I think it will be quite a poor look for the sport. That would put Vettel's lifetime teammate tally back into the red, and mean that he has never beaten a driver younger than himself; his teammate victories would include a washout from the sport, Mark Webber, and an aging Kimi Raikkonen when he had clear #1 status.

Like it or not, Vettel is the third most successful F1 driver of all time, and a four-time world championship. There are already questions over how good he really was; if he gets knocked off by yet another teammate -- and one who is definitely not rated at the top -- it will just reinforce the message that one of the statistical greats of F1 is anything but.

Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!
Lots of drivers have won in car that isn't the best. Happens literally every season.
Asides Vettel and Maldonaldo on pure pace, You can name the lots I am actually interested.
Loads,

Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Button, Raikkonen... They've all won multiple races in packages that weren't the fastest on the day.

Seeing as literally every race many drivers beat people in faster cars (given that teammates don't all finish one after the other in a race we know that must be a fact) it would be weird if it was a rare occurrence only for first place.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:28 pm
Rockie wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:22 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:37 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm


If Stroll beats Vettel I think it will be quite a poor look for the sport. That would put Vettel's lifetime teammate tally back into the red, and mean that he has never beaten a driver younger than himself; his teammate victories would include a washout from the sport, Mark Webber, and an aging Kimi Raikkonen when he had clear #1 status.

Like it or not, Vettel is the third most successful F1 driver of all time, and a four-time world championship. There are already questions over how good he really was; if he gets knocked off by yet another teammate -- and one who is definitely not rated at the top -- it will just reinforce the message that one of the statistical greats of F1 is anything but.

Personally, I'd like to see a reinvigorated Vettel pull off some championship-worthy drives, taking poles and wins in a car that isn't quite there. But I'm not sure I think it will happen.
Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!
Lots of drivers have won in car that isn't the best. Happens literally every season.
Asides Vettel and Maldonaldo on pure pace, You can name the lots I am actually interested.
Loads,

Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Button, Raikkonen... They've all won multiple races in packages that weren't the fastest on the day.

Seeing as literally every race many drivers beat people in faster cars (given that teammates don't all finish one after the other in a race we know that must be a fact) it would be weird if it was a rare occurrence only for first place.
The people you mention here were either driving the best or next best car (i.e. a Ferrari or Mclaren) on the grid.
Last edited by Rockie on Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SteveW
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by SteveW »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 am
SteveW wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:39 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:50 am
SteveW wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:58 am
I used to think Lace Stroll didn't deserve his seat in F1. Yes, he had won championships leading up to F1, but they were skewed in my opinion due to the teams being either the best around or teammate's not really allowed to challenge. I thought Williams were crazy to sign him when they did, despite the money that came with him.

I fully agree with a lot of what others have already said though, that due to his situation of not really being under any pressure of losing his seat at any point in his career so far, that has taken a lot of pressure of him personally and it's clear that it's helped him to grow. I'm not saying he's a top tier driver, and to be honest I doubt he ever will be - but he's come a long way from the slow kid that started back in 2017 and he's still only in his fourth year so has room to improve more. He does deserve his seat now I think.

Still think Vettel will better him over the course of a year though - I'd be VERY surprised if that doesn't happen.
There's a lot of drivers that could come into F1 and do a reasonable job, a question of Stroll would be would you consider him one of the 20 best single seater drivers in the world?
Probably not. But the same could be said for Grosjean, Magnussen and many others who have come and gone before them.

Put it this way, four years into his F1 career I probably wouldn't consider him one of the 20 WORST F1 drivers that we've had over the years. In his first year I honestly thought he was heading for that category......
F1 has been on the go for 70 years now, that's not exactly an endorsement, also Grosjean and KMag also have their critics and their seats are not guaranteed unlike Stroll.
I'm not endorsing him as a brilliant F1 driver though. You asked if he was one of the 20 best single seat drivers in the world. I answered probably not, which could be said for at least two more drivers in the current F1 line up. And I've already acknowledged his seat being guaranteed and that it's possibly that reason alone that has allowed him to grow and improve over the three years he's been driving so far. Yes, if he didn't have daddy supplying his seat he'd probably be gone by now, but he isn't and there's nothing much we can do about that. But fortunately for him he has been given the opportunity to improve and you cannot deny that he has improved by at least a reasonable amount since he started in 2017, surely?

People FAR worse than Stroll is now have driven in F1 in the past and you cannot argue that. Although you probably will, because that's what you do ;) :lol:

mikeyg123
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:35 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:28 pm
Rockie wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:22 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:37 pm


Which driver other than Vettel has done this?

Since 2000 I cant think of any!
Lots of drivers have won in car that isn't the best. Happens literally every season.
Asides Vettel and Maldonaldo on pure pace, You can name the lots I am actually interested.
Loads,

Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Button, Raikkonen... They've all won multiple races in packages that weren't the fastest on the day.

Seeing as literally every race many drivers beat people in faster cars (given that teammates don't all finish one after the other in a race we know that must be a fact) it would be weird if it was a rare occurrence only for first place.
The people you mention here were either driving the best or next best car (i.e. a Ferrari or Mclaren) on the grid.
Not all of them always mate and nobody said the 2nd best car doesn't count.

I think you may be falling into the trap of assuming a car is the fastest because it won.

I mean, you're saying this off the back of a race that Gasly has won clearly without having the best or indeed the second best car.

Rockie
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:40 pm
Rockie wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:35 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:28 pm
Rockie wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:22 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 pm


Lots of drivers have won in car that isn't the best. Happens literally every season.
Asides Vettel and Maldonaldo on pure pace, You can name the lots I am actually interested.
Loads,

Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Button, Raikkonen... They've all won multiple races in packages that weren't the fastest on the day.

Seeing as literally every race many drivers beat people in faster cars (given that teammates don't all finish one after the other in a race we know that must be a fact) it would be weird if it was a rare occurrence only for first place.
The people you mention here were either driving the best or next best car (i.e. a Ferrari or Mclaren) on the grid.
Not all of them always mate and nobody said the 2nd best car doesn't count.

I think you may be falling into the trap of assuming a car is the fastest because it won.

I mean, you're saying this off the back of a race that Gasly has won clearly without having the best or indeed the second best car.
Well that was the intention of the post I was replying to saying Vettel needs to qualify the racing point on pole and win.

Not at all, just saying only them cars were really winning then outside of Redbull.

Gasly's win wasn't on pure pace, and was a freak result.

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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Mort Canard »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 pm
If Stroll beats Vettel then something has gone wrong in the universe.
:thumbup: :nod:
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Exediron
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Re: Who will finish higher in the WDC 2021, Stroll or Vettel?

Post by Exediron »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:35 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:28 pm
Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Button, Raikkonen... They've all won multiple races in packages that weren't the fastest on the day.

Seeing as literally every race many drivers beat people in faster cars (given that teammates don't all finish one after the other in a race we know that must be a fact) it would be weird if it was a rare occurrence only for first place.
The people you mention here were either driving the best or next best car (i.e. a Ferrari or Mclaren) on the grid.
Not all of them; Button, at the very least, was not driving a car that could be considered second best when he won the 2006 Hungarian GP. Raikkonen also took wins for Lotus in 2012 and 2013, in a car that most would put 3rd or below.

Hamilton and Schumi are tougher calls, since I don't think Hamilton has ever driven a car that wasn't at least second quickest at the point in the season where he won (thinking of 2009), and Schumi only won a single race past the year 2000 in what I would consider a car slower than 2nd quickest -- and that was the 2005 US GP, so it doesn't really count.

But I was actually thinking of Alonso when I said that originally, who won races in the 2008 Renault (Japan, even if you don't count Singapore) and in Ferrari cars that were at times quite far off the ultimate pace.

Vettel's Toro Rosso win does stand out as a rare win from the true midfield, but I think there's every chance Aston Martin will be more competitive than that -- closer to where Red Bull is now than where Toro Rosso was in 2008.
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