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schumilegend wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm

Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm

We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.

This isn't true at all...Contrary Vettel always likes a pointy car..part of the reason he destroyed Bourdais in Toro Rosso and Webber in the red bull..Bourdais even acknowledged how he couldnt cope with a unstable rear but Seb could control it

It's been well documented for a number of years that Vettel needs a stable and compliant rear end to extract his best performance. Just a quick google brings this article up from the beginning of last year and I know I read about it during his time at Red Bull even.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lem-setup/

It is not a secret what Vettel demands from a good racing car. He must be able to rely on the rear of the vehicle. It doesn't even have to feel like cement, but its reactions have to be predictable in every round. Then he can show his great strength.

Radio from after the last GP "thanks guys I pushed as hard as could at the end there but, yeah, the car was getting nervous again with the rear"

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:35 pm

You honestly think if there is only one update package available in Sochi it will go to Perez?

It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.

It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.

If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.

I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:16 pm

Otmar said it will be tricky to have the upgrades for both cars in Sochi given Stroll's accident to SKY. You might as well get your bet in for another weekend where Stroll outperforms Perez.

What are the upgrades and how much performance do they give the car?

Is it something that Perez can (naturally) overcome?

Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:22 am

schumilegend wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm

Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm

We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.

This isn't true at all...Contrary Vettel always likes a pointy car..part of the reason he destroyed Bourdais in Toro Rosso and Webber in the red bull..Bourdais even acknowledged how he couldnt cope with a unstable rear but Seb could control it

It's been well documented for a number of years that Vettel needs a stable and compliant rear end to extract his best performance. Just a quick google brings this article up from the beginning of last year and I know I read about it during his time at Red Bull even.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lem-setup/

It is not a secret what Vettel demands from a good racing car. He must be able to rely on the rear of the vehicle. It doesn't even have to feel like cement, but its reactions have to be predictable in every round. Then he can show his great strength.

Radio from after the last GP "thanks guys I pushed as hard as could at the end there but, yeah, the car was getting nervous again with the rear"

People keep conflating stability under braking and planted rear end, and this confusion comes from thinking the EBD cars have more downforce than current cars.

It's actually there in the article you posted.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am

Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:22 am

schumilegend wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm

Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm

We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.

This isn't true at all...Contrary Vettel always likes a pointy car..part of the reason he destroyed Bourdais in Toro Rosso and Webber in the red bull..Bourdais even acknowledged how he couldnt cope with a unstable rear but Seb could control it

It's been well documented for a number of years that Vettel needs a stable and compliant rear end to extract his best performance. Just a quick google brings this article up from the beginning of last year and I know I read about it during his time at Red Bull even.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lem-setup/

It is not a secret what Vettel demands from a good racing car. He must be able to rely on the rear of the vehicle. It doesn't even have to feel like cement, but its reactions have to be predictable in every round. Then he can show his great strength.

Radio from after the last GP "thanks guys I pushed as hard as could at the end there but, yeah, the car was getting nervous again with the rear"

People keep conflating stability under braking and planted rear end, and this confusion comes from thinking the EBD cars have more downforce than current cars.

It's actually there in the article you posted.

More downforce doesn't mean more stability.

Regardless of the downforce level the drivers are right on the edge of adhesion. They are using all the grip available. In the context of the discussion here what matters is the aero balance not the total amount of aero.

F1Oz wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm

It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.

It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.

If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.

I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless

Webber didn't like the new front wing, he just likes to play the victim.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:59 pm

F1Oz wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.

It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.

If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.

I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless

Webber didn't like the new front wing, he just likes to play the victim.

He did like it. After Seb took it!

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:44 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:59 pm

F1Oz wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm

It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.

If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.

I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless

Webber didn't like the new front wing, he just likes to play the victim.

He did like it. After Seb took it!

Well Aston Martin will be able to use the 2020 Merc rear end next year without eating into their development tokens. This bodes rather well for Vettel.

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:56 am

Well Aston Martin will be able to use the 2020 Merc rear end next year without eating into their development tokens. This bodes rather well for Vettel.

yep, and anything else they "take pictures" of lol

it will be interesting if a change of scenery revitalizes vettel

It is true that both Stroll and Perez have backing. But Stroll's dad is the man with the power in this situation, so he wins. If Telemax was an owner instead, you can bet Stroll would be waving goodbye. Money is a key factor, but they are also trying to build up the team - quickly. So it isn't all about dad getting his son racing. They are putting a lot on the line for Vettel.

Will 2021 Aston Martin be at least equal to this year's Racing Point?

I can see Vettel do well but cmmon we are talking about comparing him to Strol!!... it really wouldn’t make much of a difference .. I hope he doesn’t end up like a Kimi - happy with a paycheck and a car that will get a podium once a while

schumilegend wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:33 pm

I can see Vettel do well but cmmon we are talking about comparing him to Strol!!... it really wouldn’t make much of a difference .. I hope he doesn’t end up like a Kimi - happy with a paycheck and a car that will get a podium once a while

...uhm, how long are we going to have to wait for the Alfa Romeo to get the "every once in a while" podium???

2fast wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:37 am

Will 2021 Aston Martin be at least equal to this year's Racing Point?

I don't know. Based on their first three years (2016-2018) I expected Haas to be battling for podiums by now.

Aston Martin certainly will have a competitive power unit. I don't see how they really go backward that much from this year's car.

Mort Canard wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:23 am

Aston Martin certainly will have a competitive power unit. I don't see how they really go backward that much from this year's car.

For 2021 I expect they'll be similar or quicker, although there's a possibility that they'll lose out in relative terms if the McLaren-Mercedes is dramatically faster than the McLaren-Renault right now.

2022 is the real question mark, since they'll need to design their own car.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:19 am

Mort Canard wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:23 am

Aston Martin certainly will have a competitive power unit. I don't see how they really go backward that much from this year's car.

For 2021 I expect they'll be similar or quicker, although there's a possibility that they'll lose out in relative terms if the McLaren-Mercedes is dramatically faster than the McLaren-Renault right now.

2022 is the real question mark, since they'll need to design their own car.

I suspect by then they'll have enough of an insight into what it takes to develop a "winning" package, the particular philosophies involved and where the correct Research and Development investment(s) and resources should go.

They're making all the correct chess moves now to be in a better place for the future. It's actually very impressive what they've done so far and how they've done it.

Mort Canard wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:14 am

schumilegend wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:33 pm

I can see Vettel do well but cmmon we are talking about comparing him to Strol!!... it really wouldn’t make much of a difference .. I hope he doesn’t end up like a Kimi - happy with a paycheck and a car that will get a podium once a while

...uhm, how long are we going to have to wait for the Alfa Romeo to get the "every once in a while" podium???

Sorry i meant in his last years(not just ALfa Romeo) he has been clearly past it and not really capable of fighting for wins with the best..a podium here and there are the best he can hope for at this age

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:05 am

PT03 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm

Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........

If you honestly think Lance won his junior championships on an equal playing field to everyone else then I don't know what to say to you.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, is there any evidence to suggest he received favourable upgrades and treatment, or could this have come about after some discouraging words from a not-so-fortunate former teammate?

I never saw Stroll in the lower classes, but I could see people complaining for perceived favouritism that wasn't in fact there.

Charles LeBrad wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:40 am

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:05 am

PT03 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm

Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........

If you honestly think Lance won his junior championships on an equal playing field to everyone else then I don't know what to say to you.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, is there any evidence to suggest he received favourable upgrades and treatment, or could this have come about after some discouraging words from a not-so-fortunate former teammate?

I never saw Stroll in the lower classes, but I could see people complaining for perceived favouritism that wasn't in fact there.

https://www.autosport.com/f3/news/12356 ... uropean-f3

https://www.grandprix247.com/2016/11/04 ... big-money/

https://www.racefans.net/2016/11/03/wil ... s-opinion/

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:09 am

PT03 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm

Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........

By virtue of his performances in F1. Had Stroll come in and performed like Perez did in 2011 and 2012 then nobody would be saying he doesn't belong. But he didn't.

Even pre F1 - Stroll was basically bought a championship in the 4th tier and Perez finished 2nd in the 2nd tier.

That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.

PLEASE prove this theory of yours and tell everyone how in the lower "Formulae" where outside of setup (something generally attributed to driver feedback) cars are completely identical, how ANYONE could have an unfair advantage and be bought a championship. I'm all ears.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:16 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:09 am

PT03 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm

Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........

By virtue of his performances in F1. Had Stroll come in and performed like Perez did in 2011 and 2012 then nobody would be saying he doesn't belong. But he didn't.

Even pre F1 - Stroll was basically bought a championship in the 4th tier and Perez finished 2nd in the 2nd tier.

That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.

PLEASE prove this theory of yours and tell everyone how in the lower "Formulae" where outside of setup (something generally attributed to driver feedback) cars are completely identical, how ANYONE could have an unfair advantage and be bought a championship. I'm all ears.

What are you talking about? Williams had about 30 million reasons a year to put Stroll into the car. Obviously he wouldn't have been hired any other way.

He had every advantage possible purchased for him. A bigger team, days and days of extra testing, compliant team mates etc. I'm not suggesting anything under hand went on but to make out he won the F3 championship on an even footing with literally anybody else in the series is a nonsense. To suggest as much is a "theory" no more than the theory of evolution is a theory.

It's very well documented. I mean for goodness sake SIX teams pulled out of the championship before the season opener because they saw no point in competing on such uneven footing.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:16 pm

That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.

... Really? No F1 team would hire a pay driver?

That's news to me. I was under the impression it had been going on for decades.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:16 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:09 am

PT03 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm

Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........

By virtue of his performances in F1. Had Stroll come in and performed like Perez did in 2011 and 2012 then nobody would be saying he doesn't belong. But he didn't.

Even pre F1 - Stroll was basically bought a championship in the 4th tier and Perez finished 2nd in the 2nd tier.

That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.

PLEASE prove this theory of yours and tell everyone how in the lower "Formulae" where outside of setup (something generally attributed to driver feedback) cars are completely identical, how ANYONE could have an unfair advantage and be bought a championship. I'm all ears.

Clearly a team in deep financial trouble benefitted a lot from the Stroll millions, also you don't seem to have much idea about the subject matter, European F3 was not a spec series as such, teams were able to develop their own parts, to this end Stroll had a F1 team, Williams, developing parts for his car and his car only and his car was different from his teammates cars who were actually employed by the Stroll's to help and assist.

Every race now looks like a nail in the coffin. I mean I like Vettel, but this is painful. Is it that he has given up or is he just that much worse than Leclerc? Probably a mix of both, but I can't help thinking if his new bosses would be having second thoughts now.

Honestly they should just agree to part ways now. I'm guessing commercialy that's not an option, but it's painful to watch.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:12 pm

Honestly they should just agree to part ways now. I'm guessing commercialy that's not an option, but it's painful to watch.

Would Ferrari really gain from that? I can't see anyone else they put in doing better....

I reckon that Vettel must be giving the two fingers to Ferrari & just not even trying any more. He has finally realized that the Ferrari work ethic is a poisonous one (for him) & is just letting going out for a steady Sunday drive.
However, he has to prove he can still race next season, if he doesn't, it will be one of the biggest falls from grace as a muti-world champion ever.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:21 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:12 pm

Honestly they should just agree to part ways now. I'm guessing commercialy that's not an option, but it's painful to watch.

Would Ferrari really gain from that? I can't see anyone else they put in doing better....

If they had guts they'd bring in Mick!

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:58 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:21 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:12 pm

Honestly they should just agree to part ways now. I'm guessing commercialy that's not an option, but it's painful to watch.

Would Ferrari really gain from that? I can't see anyone else they put in doing better....

If they had guts they'd bring in Mick!

And kill his confidence already?

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:13 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:58 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:21 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:12 pm

Honestly they should just agree to part ways now. I'm guessing commercialy that's not an option, but it's painful to watch.

Would Ferrari really gain from that? I can't see anyone else they put in doing better....

If they had guts they'd bring in Mick!

And kill his confidence already?

Well I was joking obviously, especially as they didn't get any time on FP1, but in any case I think the answer is pretty much anyone other than Vettel at the moment

cmberry20 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:29 pm

I reckon that Vettel must be giving the two fingers to Ferrari & just not even trying any more. He has finally realized that the Ferrari work ethic is a poisonous one (for him) & is just letting going out for a steady Sunday drive.
However, he has to prove he can still race next season, if he doesn't, it will be one of the biggest falls from grace as a muti-world champion ever.

I like how when Vettel is getting beat it's him just not trying and then next year he can redeem himself by beating Lance Stroll.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:24 pm

cmberry20 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:29 pm

I reckon that Vettel must be giving the two fingers to Ferrari & just not even trying any more. He has finally realized that the Ferrari work ethic is a poisonous one (for him) & is just letting going out for a steady Sunday drive.
However, he has to prove he can still race next season, if he doesn't, it will be one of the biggest falls from grace as a muti-world champion ever.

I like how when Vettel is getting beat it's him just not trying and then next year he can redeem himself by beating Lance Stroll.

If the gap between Leclerc and Vettel is genuine then would that make Leclerc the fastest driver in F1?

There is clearly more factors at play than Leclerc being that much better than Vettel. Could be that Vettel has mentally checked out, he's past it, Ferrari atmosphere poison, being treated as #2..... maybe even a factor of everything.

Vettel is/was a good driver, as fast as anyone when he is on it, although I think he has always lacked the all round attributes of a truely elite driver and I don't think he is as good as a 4 time champion suggests. However the Vettel we are seeing now, is not the Vettel of 2013.

He might bounce back next season, similar to how he did when he left Red Bull for Ferrari. Either way, next season should answer questions.

Like any sportsman - some blossom young and fade away, some are late bloomers, and some seem to go on forever - and a whole host of variable in between. Is it possible Vettel was simply just past it and on the decline by the time he was 28-29 years old?

pokerman wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:24 pm

cmberry20 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:29 pm

I reckon that Vettel must be giving the two fingers to Ferrari & just not even trying any more. He has finally realized that the Ferrari work ethic is a poisonous one (for him) & is just letting going out for a steady Sunday drive.
However, he has to prove he can still race next season, if he doesn't, it will be one of the biggest falls from grace as a muti-world champion ever.

I like how when Vettel is getting beat it's him just not trying and then next year he can redeem himself by beating Lance Stroll.

I think he is trying. Very hard.

It just so happens he is qualifying right down in the mid field (while Charles is usually a few spots ahead) so he makes too many mistakes in the mid field or the strategy is usually dead opposite to Charles'.

I actually thought yesterday was going well when Vettel was on the white wall tyres and Charles was on the yellow mediums. The gap stayed around 16 seconds for quite a few laps despite the tyre disadvantage that Vettel had. Then came the graining and the Safety Car just minutes after he had made his second pit stop.

Oh and that silly error that forced him into the first premature pit stop. Amateur stuff.

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:01 pm

There is clearly more factors at play than Leclerc being that much better than Vettel. Could be that Vettel has mentally checked out, he's past it, Ferrari atmosphere poison, being treated as #2..... maybe even a factor of everything.

Vettel is/was a good driver, as fast as anyone when he is on it, although I think he has always lacked the all round attributes of a truely elite driver and I don't think he is as good as a 4 time champion suggests. However the Vettel we are seeing now, is not the Vettel of 2013.

He might bounce back next season, similar to how he did when he left Red Bull for Ferrari. Either way, next season should answer questions.

Like any sportsman - some blossom young and fade away, some are late bloomers, and some seem to go on forever - and a whole host of variable in between. Is it possible Vettel was simply just past it and on the decline by the time he was 28-29 years old?

Very true. I also think he is the more unlucky Ferrari of the two this year so far, brake failures, etc.

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:01 pm

There is clearly more factors at play than Leclerc being that much better than Vettel. Could be that Vettel has mentally checked out, he's past it, Ferrari atmosphere poison, being treated as #2..... maybe even a factor of everything.

Vettel is/was a good driver, as fast as anyone when he is on it, although I think he has always lacked the all round attributes of a truely elite driver and I don't think he is as good as a 4 time champion suggests. However the Vettel we are seeing now, is not the Vettel of 2013.

He might bounce back next season, similar to how he did when he left Red Bull for Ferrari. Either way, next season should answer questions.

Like any sportsman - some blossom young and fade away, some are late bloomers, and some seem to go on forever - and a whole host of variable in between. Is it possible Vettel was simply just past it and on the decline by the time he was 28-29 years old?

Well, physically Vettel looks like a balding middle aged man these days. He looks like the oldest 33 year old I've seen in a long time.

After this weekends Eifel GP, I have to wonder if bringing Nico Hulkenberg for the rest of the year might not be a good move for the Scuderia???

It would be a benefit to the team if Nico could get close enough to Charles that other teams had to factor him into their overcut/undercut calculations. That is not happening with Seb.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:15 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:01 pm

There is clearly more factors at play than Leclerc being that much better than Vettel. Could be that Vettel has mentally checked out, he's past it, Ferrari atmosphere poison, being treated as #2..... maybe even a factor of everything.

Vettel is/was a good driver, as fast as anyone when he is on it, although I think he has always lacked the all round attributes of a truely elite driver and I don't think he is as good as a 4 time champion suggests. However the Vettel we are seeing now, is not the Vettel of 2013.

He might bounce back next season, similar to how he did when he left Red Bull for Ferrari. Either way, next season should answer questions.

Like any sportsman - some blossom young and fade away, some are late bloomers, and some seem to go on forever - and a whole host of variable in between. Is it possible Vettel was simply just past it and on the decline by the time he was 28-29 years old?

Well, physically Vettel looks like a balding middle aged man these days. He looks like the oldest 33 year old I've seen in a long time.

I mean there is some precedent for it. At a similar age Mika Hakkinen slumped horribly in his final season and suddenly looked a lot worse than Coulthard. He had mentally checked out, and although he still had the odd good performance - Vettel has been awful this year.

cmberry20 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:29 pm

I reckon that Vettel must be giving the two fingers to Ferrari & just not even trying any more. He has finally realized that the Ferrari work ethic is a poisonous one (for him) & is just letting going out for a steady Sunday drive.
However, he has to prove he can still race next season, if he doesn't, it will be one of the biggest falls from grace as a muti-world champion ever.

I doubt it, motivation could be a factor but he says he is just struggling with rear instability, something that has been a weakness of his for his entire career. We do have a data set to compare his current performance against to prove or disprove that, his performance in the middle of last year before the Singapore upgrades, where he was also struggling with the balance of the car.

So looking at the average qualifying gaps I've got:

2019 : Australia - Canada - 0.180 advantage Vettel
2019 : France - Italy - 0.444 advantage Leclerc
2019 : Singapore - Abu Dhabi - 0.076 advantage Leclerc

2020 : Austria - Germany - 0.355 advantage Leclerc

The average gap this season is actually less than it was during his dip last season, and when you take into account the probability of Leclerc improving slightly in his second season with the team it looks even less likely that he is simply not trying IMO.