Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

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mikeyg123
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by mikeyg123 »

PT03 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:43 pm
Why do some people give Stroll such a hard time? Stroll = there because Daddy's money .....maybe, but Perez = there because of Sponsors money- whats the big difference?
Because Stroll would not still be in F1 without daddies money. Perez has always justified a place on talent alone. There's also a massive difference on the money spent on Perez's career by sponsors and the money spent on Stroll who has been bought every opportunity it is possible buy.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by tim3003 »

Azi wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:56 pm
Generally, sponsorship is given because of racing talent, though there may be other additional reasons for the backing; Stroll on the other hand has backing regardless of his talent.
I think that's unfair on both Strolls. Senior is too good a businessman to waste his millions on a talentless son. And junior has proved he's as much right to be in F1 on merit as many other drivers.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Harpo »

Time when you could make your way to F1 on pure talent, with a couple of friends doing the mechanics, stealing the tyres and sleeping in your van till you get a pinch of sponsor support, is over since a long time. Even Norris is there thanks to daddy's money.
If the current Stroll Junior was called Whatsit (John or even Maurice), and not sharing the same name as the team owner, I am sure there would be far less questions about Perez leaving instead of Whatsit.
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:23 pm
Azi wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:56 pm
Generally, sponsorship is given because of racing talent, though there may be other additional reasons for the backing; Stroll on the other hand has backing regardless of his talent.
I think that's unfair on both Strolls. Senior is too good a businessman to waste his millions on a talentless son. And junior has proved he's as much right to be in F1 on merit as many other drivers.
He hasn't wasted the money. It's done what it was supposed to do. That doesn't mean Lance Stroll would be near F1 without it.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm
tim3003 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:23 pm
Azi wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:56 pm
Generally, sponsorship is given because of racing talent, though there may be other additional reasons for the backing; Stroll on the other hand has backing regardless of his talent.
I think that's unfair on both Strolls. Senior is too good a businessman to waste his millions on a talentless son. And junior has proved he's as much right to be in F1 on merit as many other drivers.
He hasn't wasted the money. It's done what it was supposed to do. That doesn't mean Lance Stroll would be near F1 without it.
I'm gonna call Bull Dookie on this…

Even Button said so. He said the Lance very much earned his place in F1 on merit hanks to winning just about everything leading up to getting the call up from Williams. As well, Lance has shown on-track that he does belong. he's been very clean and very quick both off the line and with decisions on the fly and has yielded excellent results. AND he's a wonderful guy. just a positive cheerful attitude and a pleasure to watch being interviewed. His dad did an excellent job of raising a wonderful human being and a gentleman which is something you rarely see with families of their kind of wealth, because usually there's a node of arrogance that stems from the top to the bottom and I have never seen anything even close to that from either of the Strolls.

At some point you're going to have to jump off that misconceived notion bandwagon and give the guy the credit he's due, because he's proving his worth on-track.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Exediron »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm
He hasn't wasted the money. It's done what it was supposed to do. That doesn't mean Lance Stroll would be near F1 without it.
I'm gonna call Bull Dookie on this…

Even Button said so. He said the Lance very much earned his place in F1 on merit hanks to winning just about everything leading up to getting the call up from Williams. As well, Lance has shown on-track that he does belong. he's been very clean and very quick both off the line and with decisions on the fly and has yielded excellent results. AND he's a wonderful guy. just a positive cheerful attitude and a pleasure to watch being interviewed. His dad did an excellent job of raising a wonderful human being and a gentleman which is something you rarely see with families of their kind of wealth, because usually there's a node of arrogance that stems from the top to the bottom and I have never seen anything even close to that from either of the Strolls.

At some point you're going to have to jump off that misconceived notion bandwagon and give the guy the credit he's due, because he's proving his worth on-track.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but the X-factor here is how much of Lance's success is directly due to Lawrence's money. If -- as his detractors allege -- his winning in lower formulas was due to massive spending and unfair advantages in his favor, then it remains true that he would not have reached F1 without it.

Personally, I feel that Lance entered F1 far too early, and at the time he was completely unqualified for a seat at the table. At this point I feel he has earned his spot on the grid, but I don't think you can say he got it originally on merit.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm
tim3003 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:23 pm
Azi wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:56 pm
Generally, sponsorship is given because of racing talent, though there may be other additional reasons for the backing; Stroll on the other hand has backing regardless of his talent.
I think that's unfair on both Strolls. Senior is too good a businessman to waste his millions on a talentless son. And junior has proved he's as much right to be in F1 on merit as many other drivers.
He hasn't wasted the money. It's done what it was supposed to do. That doesn't mean Lance Stroll would be near F1 without it.
I'm gonna call Bull Dookie on this…

Even Button said so. He said the Lance very much earned his place in F1 on merit hanks to winning just about everything leading up to getting the call up from Williams. As well, Lance has shown on-track that he does belong. he's been very clean and very quick both off the line and with decisions on the fly and has yielded excellent results. AND he's a wonderful guy. just a positive cheerful attitude and a pleasure to watch being interviewed. His dad did an excellent job of raising a wonderful human being and a gentleman which is something you rarely see with families of their kind of wealth, because usually there's a node of arrogance that stems from the top to the bottom and I have never seen anything even close to that from either of the Strolls.

At some point you're going to have to jump off that misconceived notion bandwagon and give the guy the credit he's due, because he's proving his worth on-track.
Ok, point me in the direction of all the other drivers who have had the opportunity to move to F1 from the 4th tier in recent times. He's shown nothing on track than Pedro Diniz didn't show 20 years earlier. If you give someone fairly talented all the opportunities someone so rich would never have they will eventually become good enough.

Also worth pointing out he didn't exactly win on a level playing field.

This plays out in many industries not just F1.

And yeah, Button isn't going to rubbish someone he works with in the paddock and has to interview. Colour me shocked.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by PT03 »

Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Schermerhorn »

Stroll is turning into a good racing driver if results are anything to go by but how much of that is because strategy has favoured him lately rather than pure talent? Even he will be aware that he'll always be referred to as the son of a billionaire who is in F1 because he father literally owns the team and he's there through sheer nepotism. In that case, will he ever the credit?

I also read on Autosport Forums there was a clause in Perez' contract that if by the Italian GP he had less points than Stroll the team could terminate the contract. Hmmmmm, not dodgy at all.... :?

Then you have silly strategies that have gone against him and those two "positive" Covid19 tests, it's all a little bit suspicious.

Billionaires like Lawrence Stroll are rarely on the losing side.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by BMWSauber84 »

PT03 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm
Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........
If you honestly think Lance won his junior championships on an equal playing field to everyone else then I don't know what to say to you.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by mikeyg123 »

PT03 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm
Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........
By virtue of his performances in F1. Had Stroll come in and performed like Perez did in 2011 and 2012 then nobody would be saying he doesn't belong. But he didn't.

Even pre F1 - Stroll was basically bought a championship in the 4th tier and Perez finished 2nd in the 2nd tier.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by bourbon19 »

It is true that both Stroll and Perez have backing. But Stroll's dad is the man with the power in this situation, so he wins. If Telemax was an owner instead, you can bet Stroll would be waving goodbye. Money is a key factor, but they are also trying to build up the team - quickly. So it isn't all about dad getting his son racing. They are putting a lot on the line for Vettel.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by 2fast »

Will 2021 Aston Martin be at least equal to this year's Racing Point?
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Mort Canard »

2fast wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:37 am
Will 2021 Aston Martin be at least equal to this year's Racing Point?
I don't know. Based on their first three years (2016-2018) I expected Haas to be battling for podiums by now.

Aston Martin certainly will have a competitive power unit. I don't see how they really go backward that much from this year's car.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Exediron »

Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:23 am
Aston Martin certainly will have a competitive power unit. I don't see how they really go backward that much from this year's car.
For 2021 I expect they'll be similar or quicker, although there's a possibility that they'll lose out in relative terms if the McLaren-Mercedes is dramatically faster than the McLaren-Renault right now.

2022 is the real question mark, since they'll need to design their own car. :twisted:
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Schermerhorn »

Exediron wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:19 am
Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:23 am
Aston Martin certainly will have a competitive power unit. I don't see how they really go backward that much from this year's car.
For 2021 I expect they'll be similar or quicker, although there's a possibility that they'll lose out in relative terms if the McLaren-Mercedes is dramatically faster than the McLaren-Renault right now.

2022 is the real question mark, since they'll need to design their own car. :twisted:
I suspect by then they'll have enough of an insight into what it takes to develop a "winning" package, the particular philosophies involved and where the correct Research and Development investment(s) and resources should go.

They're making all the correct chess moves now to be in a better place for the future. It's actually very impressive what they've done so far and how they've done it.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Charles LeBrad »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:05 am
PT03 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm
Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........
If you honestly think Lance won his junior championships on an equal playing field to everyone else then I don't know what to say to you.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here, is there any evidence to suggest he received favourable upgrades and treatment, or could this have come about after some discouraging words from a not-so-fortunate former teammate?

I never saw Stroll in the lower classes, but I could see people complaining for perceived favouritism that wasn't in fact there.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by pokerman »

Charles LeBrad wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:40 am
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:05 am
PT03 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm
Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........
If you honestly think Lance won his junior championships on an equal playing field to everyone else then I don't know what to say to you.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here, is there any evidence to suggest he received favourable upgrades and treatment, or could this have come about after some discouraging words from a not-so-fortunate former teammate?

I never saw Stroll in the lower classes, but I could see people complaining for perceived favouritism that wasn't in fact there.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:09 am
PT03 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm
Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........
By virtue of his performances in F1. Had Stroll come in and performed like Perez did in 2011 and 2012 then nobody would be saying he doesn't belong. But he didn't.

Even pre F1 - Stroll was basically bought a championship in the 4th tier and Perez finished 2nd in the 2nd tier.
That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.

PLEASE prove this theory of yours and tell everyone how in the lower "Formulae" where outside of setup (something generally attributed to driver feedback) cars are completely identical, how ANYONE could have an unfair advantage and be bought a championship. I'm all ears.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:09 am
PT03 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm
Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........
By virtue of his performances in F1. Had Stroll come in and performed like Perez did in 2011 and 2012 then nobody would be saying he doesn't belong. But he didn't.

Even pre F1 - Stroll was basically bought a championship in the 4th tier and Perez finished 2nd in the 2nd tier.
That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.

PLEASE prove this theory of yours and tell everyone how in the lower "Formulae" where outside of setup (something generally attributed to driver feedback) cars are completely identical, how ANYONE could have an unfair advantage and be bought a championship. I'm all ears.
What are you talking about? Williams had about 30 million reasons a year to put Stroll into the car. Obviously he wouldn't have been hired any other way.

He had every advantage possible purchased for him. A bigger team, days and days of extra testing, compliant team mates etc. I'm not suggesting anything under hand went on but to make out he won the F3 championship on an even footing with literally anybody else in the series is a nonsense. To suggest as much is a "theory" no more than the theory of evolution is a theory.

It's very well documented. I mean for goodness sake SIX teams pulled out of the championship before the season opener because they saw no point in competing on such uneven footing.
Last edited by mikeyg123 on Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by Exediron »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:16 pm
That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.
... Really? No F1 team would hire a pay driver?

That's news to me. I was under the impression it had been going on for decades.
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Re: Its Official: Sebastian Vettel to Aston Martin in 2021 (merged)

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:09 am
PT03 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:30 pm
Perez had Telmex backing from the early days of his career, when he first started at Sauber who becomes their main sponsor ...you guessed it Telmex. so you could call them his rich Daddy. Stroll has won more Championships he has competed in than Perez, so why does Perez deserve to be in F1 more than Stroll? ...........
By virtue of his performances in F1. Had Stroll come in and performed like Perez did in 2011 and 2012 then nobody would be saying he doesn't belong. But he didn't.

Even pre F1 - Stroll was basically bought a championship in the 4th tier and Perez finished 2nd in the 2nd tier.
That's a bold statement/accusation and no F1 team would hire a driver who's "championships" came via such a scenario because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing business with someone like that.

PLEASE prove this theory of yours and tell everyone how in the lower "Formulae" where outside of setup (something generally attributed to driver feedback) cars are completely identical, how ANYONE could have an unfair advantage and be bought a championship. I'm all ears.
Clearly a team in deep financial trouble benefitted a lot from the Stroll millions, also you don't seem to have much idea about the subject matter, European F3 was not a spec series as such, teams were able to develop their own parts, to this end Stroll had a F1 team, Williams, developing parts for his car and his car only and his car was different from his teammates cars who were actually employed by the Stroll's to help and assist.
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