POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

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Was Hamilton/Giovinazzi's penalties

Poll ended at Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:15 pm

Too harsh
13
24%
About right
39
72%
Too lenient
2
4%
 
Total votes: 54

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Badgeronimous
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Badgeronimous »

TBH.

Whilst it is a stick on penalty, I think you do need to question how easy it was for a driver to realise the pit lane is closed. The marker boards, certainly at Monza, are not in the drivers eye so I can fully understand why they didn't notice them - and something for safety perhaps should be more immediately obvious (red/green light maybe at the pit lane start)

However, I can't really see an arguement why it's a harsh penalty whilst understanding the honest reasons how it happened. He drove past 2 marker boards telling him the pits are closed. Yes I see why they were blase in not looking out for them before entering, and tbh in that situation - without my team informing me - I probably would have made the same mistake. The info was definitely displayed, and ultimately it is the drivers responsibility to check the pit lane is open before every pit entry. It's not that they couldn't see them, but neither obviously checked the display boards.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Jezza13 »

Herb wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:42 am
Matthew Somerfield has the answers to some of the questions on here:
I agree completely will the penalty. Yes, it could have been signalled better - but the team were aware of it, just not quick enough to tell their driver.

Also - I think they could have easily used a VSC in this situation. The car was out of the way, cars running around the track at a much reduced speed would have been perfectly safe.

Why are they so reluctant to use it these days?
I think the FIA are just being hyper cautious about cars circulating while people are on the track recovering cars. At least with the cars bunched behind the SC, the marshalls had 95% of the track car free to do their thing. If it was a VSC, that wouldn't have happened.

While the risk of a car hitting them under VSC conditions in that area of the track was extremely remote at best, if something did go horribly wrong & they were to get hit, the wolves would certainly be out screaming as to why the SC wasn't used.
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Lord Crc
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Lord Crc »

angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:33 am
No driver is ever looking to the outside of any corner. In fact, it would be dangerous for them to be looking to the outside of a corner as they wouldnt be looking where they were going. Their eyes are on the apex.
This is what Hamilton saw: https://imgur.com/a/pDfqBGF

You're saying the best drivers in the world shouldn't be able to notice this?

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by F1_Ernie »

Let's be honest it was never a SC and it was a complete joke. They might aswell get rid of the VSC if it's never going to be used.
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DFWdude
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by DFWdude »

Ho Hum... Yet another race contrived by the stewards.

The last 2-3 years, the stewards hand out 5-second time penalties like hot buttered rolls, for racing violations that caused accidents. 90% of the time these hand slaps had ZERO affect on the finish (Canada 2019 and COTA 2019 the most notable exceptions).

Now, the stewards drop the REAL hammer... not only a stop and go, but add 10 seconds, too. This amounts to a 30+second penalty, some 6X more punishing than 5-second, racing incidents where drivers could be seriously injured or worse. This 10-sec stop and go really put the steward thumb on the finish of this race.

I'm not suggesting that a penalty was not earned (even though this was a team fault for not keeping HAM out). But given the paddy-cake way the other penalties have been handled -- for much more dangerous racing incidents -- this one was worth no more than a 10-second penalty, or a simple "Drive-through" at most... no stop, and certainly no +10 secs. This old rule should be revised to bring it in line with the other penatly schedules and current practices.

All this does is give idiot commentators license to prattle-on in favor of reverse grid starts, as happened the second half of the race. Further, the media now describing this race as a classic is nonsense, when in reality, it was an ordinary race thrown out of whack by heavy-handed officiating. This race was not iconic, but shameful, instead.

As a fan, I don't need to be (artificially) excited at every race. I expect the best car/driver to win. In this case, the best car/driver was hopelessly handicapped by a team error (failure to tell him not to pit), not a driving fault. On a day when several racing records were on offer. Not to mention it will be years before Alpha Tauri wins another race. How exciting is that? What BS is next?

Attack...
Last edited by DFWdude on Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JN23
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:19 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:12 am
Clarky wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:08 am
Remember this?

https://streamable.com/p08tyq
I had just read about this on Twitter - is the rule of 10 second stop/go being the penalty a new rule then?

The Stewards decision document takes into account the poor visibility and limited time for the team to react (which also applies to Hamilton), but that’s a big discrepancy in penalty. I guess inconsistency isn’t anything new.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... ciardo.pdf
The rule was updated because teams complained that Ricciardo's penalty was far too lenient. They wanted a hard penalty put in place because otherwise teams could decide it's advantageous to take the penalty and enter the pits.
Thanks, that does make sense to be fair.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:56 am
Herb wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:42 am
Matthew Somerfield has the answers to some of the questions on here:
I agree completely will the penalty. Yes, it could have been signalled better - but the team were aware of it, just not quick enough to tell their driver.

Also - I think they could have easily used a VSC in this situation. The car was out of the way, cars running around the track at a much reduced speed would have been perfectly safe.

Why are they so reluctant to use it these days?
I think the FIA are just being hyper cautious about cars circulating while people are on the track recovering cars. At least with the cars bunched behind the SC, the marshalls had 95% of the track car free to do their thing. If it was a VSC, that wouldn't have happened.

While the risk of a car hitting them under VSC conditions in that area of the track was extremely remote at best, if something did go horribly wrong & they were to get hit, the wolves would certainly be out screaming as to why the SC wasn't used.
Interestingly/bizarrely, in the F2 sprint race a driver spun at the first chicane and couldn’t get moving again so a crane was needed to move the car. Only a VSC was called, which to me seemed crazy.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by BMWSauber84 »

When was the last time a VSC was deployed at an F1 race? It seems to me that for a fair old while the default course of action has always been full safety car no matter how out of the way a car is.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/07/ana ... -too-late/


Quite a detailed article on this. I still think the team are partially to blame, but at the same time, Hamilton had plenty of time at the speed he was going to read the situation and notice the signs. I find it quite ridiculous that he went to the stewards early on about the apparently missing lights in the pit lane. Coulthard said on Channel 4 that there are never lights there when Hamilton made this comment.

It is unfortunate that the penalty is this harsh, but it was a mistake and the penalty was deserved. So I voted about right.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by FrogInARaceCar »

I think this is kind of the wrong question - the penalty is the listed in the rules so the stewards don't have much discretion. What went wrong here was a failure of safety. If the pitlane is closed, it's for a safety-related reason, and so it should be blindingly obvious to all concerned that the pitlane is closed. The fact that not one, but two professional drivers and teams didn't see the notifications and so ended up creating a dangerous situation (by entering the pitlane while it is closed), is a sign that the notifications aren't clear enough, and the FIA should fix that.

Lord Crc
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Lord Crc »

For me it's more like a "yes, yes".

It is clear that they did not observe the quite visible signs. However as you say, that also clearly means the current signs are not enough.

So yeah, the penalties were just, if harsh, but they also need to improve the signalling of a closed pit lane. For something safety related like this I was quite surprised to find it did not show automatically on the dash.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by angrypirate »

FrogInARaceCar wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:15 pm
I think this is kind of the wrong question - the penalty is the listed in the rules so the stewards don't have much discretion. What went wrong here was a failure of safety. If the pitlane is closed, it's for a safety-related reason, and so it should be blindingly obvious to all concerned that the pitlane is closed. The fact that not one, but two professional drivers and teams didn't see the notifications and so ended up creating a dangerous situation (by entering the pitlane while it is closed), is a sign that the notifications aren't clear enough, and the FIA should fix that.
Yes yes - 100% this!

Hamilton didnt need to gain an advantage through the safety car period - all he needed to do was keep on going for the win. Pit lane closure should be blindingly obvious and should surely raise questions to how it was being communicated to the drivers

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by WHoff78 »

Yeah, clearly a penalty but it does seem like they have dropped the ball from a safety perspective. They know everyone dives in to the pits upon a safety car so to announce the safety car at the same time (or perhaps even before the pit lane closure) with the lead car effectively committed to the last corner seems a bit of a lapse. 4s was the difference between Mercedes passing on the message that the pit was closed so I assume that almost everyone else was informed before they made it to the pits. Made things interesting but the timing on the communication from race control was a bit of a shocker.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by j man »

The penalties were fair. Safety violations like that need to be dealt with harshly.

I don't quite get all the criticism for Hamilton not noticing the lights. You can't see it at all on the onboard footage when it's played at full speed, the X is only apparent with the benefit of a freeze frame so I'm more inclined to blame the Mercedes pitwall for not noticing when they had a much clearer notification than Hamilton did. Then again, it is a little odd that only one car from each team made this mistake.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

j man wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:57 pm
The penalties were fair. Safety violations like that need to be dealt with harshly.

I don't quite get all the criticism for Hamilton not noticing the lights. You can't see it at all on the onboard footage when it's played at full speed, the X is only apparent with the benefit of a freeze frame so I'm more inclined to blame the Mercedes pitwall for not noticing when they had a much clearer notification than Hamilton did. Then again, it is a little odd that only one car from each team made this mistake.
Don’t know about the Alfa’s but Hamilton was probably not far off being 20 seconds clear of Bottas so Mercedes will have had plenty of time to tell Bottas to stay out considering they were a few seconds away with Hamilton.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by tim3003 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm
tim3003 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:20 pm
Absurd. The penalties should be waived because there was no way drivers could see the light saying the pits were closed as they entered. The light was on the outside of Parabolica. The pit entry is on the inside. If they can have coloured flag indicators in-car these days, this 'flag' should be added to them..
The teams were also informed.
Yes, but as Toto said afterwards, by the time Merc knew, Hamilton was already in the pit lane. Anyway, what if the radio wasn't working? It should not be possible for a driver who's alert to miss the fact that the pit-lane is closed. Why not put a red/green light at its entry - as there is at the exit?.. As Coulthard said, the supposedly ultra-high-tech F1 makes a fool of itself again.. x(

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:56 am
Herb wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:42 am
Matthew Somerfield has the answers to some of the questions on here:
I agree completely will the penalty. Yes, it could have been signalled better - but the team were aware of it, just not quick enough to tell their driver.

Also - I think they could have easily used a VSC in this situation. The car was out of the way, cars running around the track at a much reduced speed would have been perfectly safe.

Why are they so reluctant to use it these days?
I think the FIA are just being hyper cautious about cars circulating while people are on the track recovering cars. At least with the cars bunched behind the SC, the marshalls had 95% of the track car free to do their thing. If it was a VSC, that wouldn't have happened.

While the risk of a car hitting them under VSC conditions in that area of the track was extremely remote at best, if something did go horribly wrong & they were to get hit, the wolves would certainly be out screaming as to why the SC wasn't used.
But they don't even wait for the cars to bunch up behind the safety car before they start (and often finish) recovering the vehicle. They do this a lot. Call a full safety car but then get the marshalls to clear the car away before the drivers have caught it meaning it was effectively cleared under VSC anyway.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by mikeyg123 »


WHoff78
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by WHoff78 »

Missed this but some have clearly pointed out what would seem to be the best course of action in future - close the pits and then call the VSC. Surely that would have given them sufficient space around the pit entry lane to push the car to safety. Once the race is neutralized they can even give the cars 30s or so to make it really obvious what they intend to do and make sure that no-one is going to pit at that point. Hopefully what they would have done if they thought there was significant risk from cars pitting, but Magnussen's car seemed to be in a relatively safe position.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:32 pm
This is interesting -

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... o_realise/
To be fair with some of the later calls teams probably waited until the driver was at or close to the last corner to tell them, so as they dont forget by the time they get there. e.g. the call to Bottas being 10 seconds after the call to Hamilton.

So while in defence of Mercedes it was fairly close, this is a sport where the result is decided by mere seconds, so being 8 seconds slower than Alpha Tauri to tell their driver is still a substantial error.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Mayhem »

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by F1_Ernie »

Does someone have both hands behind there backs and someone picks a hand to decide the race start ffs :lol:
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by tootsie323 »

Have any other drivers mentioned that they saw the signs on the outside of the Parabolica without prior communication from the team? I think that Hamilton was rather unlucky in this respect and, as shown on the Reddit link above, with the timing of it.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 am
Have any other drivers mentioned that they saw the signs on the outside of the Parabolica without prior communication from the team? I think that Hamilton was rather unlucky in this respect and, as shown on the Reddit link above, with the timing of it.
According to the link, George Russell was instructed to put by the team, but saw the pit closed signs so did not go in.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Exediron »

DFWdude wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:39 am
I'm not suggesting that a penalty was not earned (even though this was a team fault for not keeping HAM out). But given the paddy-cake way the other penalties have been handled -- for much more dangerous racing incidents -- this one was worth no more than a 10-second penalty, or a simple "Drive-through" at most... no stop, and certainly no +10 secs. This old rule should be revised to bring it in line with the other penatly schedules and current practices.
Racing incidents are not more dangerous than a safety infraction of this kind -- in fact, they are considerably less so. The drivers are extraordinarily well protected inside their cars and safety equipment. The marshals, by contrast, are very exposed, and any collision between them and a car is almost certain to lead to serious injury or death.

It is absolutely correct for safety penalties involving marshals or other personnel to be harsher than penalties involving other drivers.
DFWdude wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:39 am
All this does is give idiot commentators license to prattle-on in favor of reverse grid starts, as happened the second half of the race.
I'm 100% with you on this one, however. Hearing Crofty bang on about how exciting this would be if it was a sprint race to set the grid for a real race made my teeth grit. It wouldn't have been exciting at all if it was just to set the grid: the only reason it was exciting is that it was for a Grand Prix victory, and it was going to go to a first-time winner.

But Crofty is an idiot, and he'll find something idiotic to prattle about. It's just a question of what bone will get stuck in his teeth this weekend.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Exediron »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:52 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 am
Have any other drivers mentioned that they saw the signs on the outside of the Parabolica without prior communication from the team? I think that Hamilton was rather unlucky in this respect and, as shown on the Reddit link above, with the timing of it.
According to the link, George Russell was instructed to put by the team, but saw the pit closed signs so did not go in.
This wouldn't be the first time Russell has bailed his team out of a bad call. I don't remember which race, but there was one time last year that his engineer was being quite clueless about something (a rule, maybe?) and Russell was far more onto it than they were.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by angrypirate »

Lord Crc wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:57 am
angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:33 am
No driver is ever looking to the outside of any corner. In fact, it would be dangerous for them to be looking to the outside of a corner as they wouldnt be looking where they were going. Their eyes are on the apex.
This is what Hamilton saw: https://imgur.com/a/pDfqBGF

You're saying the best drivers in the world shouldn't be able to notice this?
Hes taking a right hand corner, the pit lane is on the right and there is a stopped car on the track on the right. And you suggest he should be looking left?

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by yodasarmpit »

Driving into a closed pit lane, it’s a straight forward safety issue. There may be a number of reasons for the drivers not being aware, but that’s the team and drivers responsibility.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

angrypirate wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:42 am
Lord Crc wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:57 am
angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:33 am
No driver is ever looking to the outside of any corner. In fact, it would be dangerous for them to be looking to the outside of a corner as they wouldnt be looking where they were going. Their eyes are on the apex.
This is what Hamilton saw: https://imgur.com/a/pDfqBGF

You're saying the best drivers in the world shouldn't be able to notice this?
Hes taking a right hand corner, the pit lane is on the right and there is a stopped car on the track on the right. And you suggest he should be looking left?

During a safety car, A driver should be going slowly enough to be looking out for danger or warnings on both sides. He had one sign, and a repeater sign. During this period, he shouldn't have been prioritising his own race but been aware of the situation.

They didn't even need to look left to see these signs! It is a right hand bend and the signs are part way round. The drivers have more of an excuse not to see them on a short stretch of straight! As if they look to the other side and are not going round a corner, they won't appear if they are still facing the same way.

Initially, the first sign was on Hamilton's right. If he missed it initially - well he's going slowly round the corner. The sign will then be in the centre of his vision. Then to the left. Then the repeater sign started off to his left and dis exactly the same as he went round the corner. You can't miss these unless you are too distracted and not focussing on what is ahead of you - which I guess Hamilton may not have been doing.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by F1_Ernie »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:56 am
angrypirate wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:42 am
Lord Crc wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:57 am
angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:33 am
No driver is ever looking to the outside of any corner. In fact, it would be dangerous for them to be looking to the outside of a corner as they wouldnt be looking where they were going. Their eyes are on the apex.
This is what Hamilton saw: https://imgur.com/a/pDfqBGF

You're saying the best drivers in the world shouldn't be able to notice this?
Hes taking a right hand corner, the pit lane is on the right and there is a stopped car on the track on the right. And you suggest he should be looking left?

During a safety car, A driver should be going slowly enough to be looking out for danger or warnings on both sides. He had one sign, and a repeater sign. During this period, he shouldn't have been prioritising his own race but been aware of the situation.

They didn't even need to look left to see these signs! It is a right hand bend and the signs are part way round. The drivers have more of an excuse not to see them on a short stretch of straight! As if they look to the other side and are not going round a corner, they won't appear if they are still facing the same way.

Initially, the first sign was on Hamilton's right. If he missed it initially - well he's going slowly round the corner. The sign will then be in the centre of his vision. Then to the left. Then the repeater sign started off to his left and dis exactly the same as he went round the corner. You can't miss these unless you are too distracted and not focussing on what is ahead of you - which I guess Hamilton may not have been doing.
It was a small mistake and an easy one to make. Hamilton was 10 seconds ahead of anyone else and Mercedes had the least time to react. Mercedes told Hamilton to box and by the time they realised the pit entry was closed Hamilton was already in the pits. Sainz had to ask McLaren 3 times if the pit lane was deffiantly shut, a luxury Hamilton/Mercedes didn't have. Kimi saw the sign but didn't have a clue what it meant, how many years has Kimi been driving in F1, it only seems like Russell knew what the sign meant.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:16 am


It was a small mistake and an easy one to make. Hamilton was 10 seconds ahead of anyone else and Mercedes had the least time to react. Mercedes told Hamilton to box and by the time they realised the pit entry was closed Hamilton was already in the pits. Sainz had to ask McLaren 3 times if the pit lane was deffiantly shut, a luxury Hamilton/Mercedes didn't have. Kimi saw the sign but didn't have a clue what it meant, how many years has Kimi been driving in F1, it only seems like Russell knew what the sign meant.


I still thought when I saw the replay that the signs looked like something unusual even if it was hard to read. It is likely harder for us to read on the drivers onboard in a way due to the cameras not being fully focussed on it as well as not being that accurate with the colours either. It looked orange but wasn't. If the drivers looked at it, it will have been easy for them to see.

Given Magnussen had pulled over infront of the pit lane, I would have thought that and those signs would be enough to suggest the pit lane may be closed. I know Hamilton got distracted and didn't have much time - but he still went by two of them and I think had shouldn't have been paying more attention. He said he didn't see them. If he did - then he likely will have known to not pit. So still think he should take most of the blame.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:41 am
Interested in what the two people voting too lenient think the penalty should be - DQ?
I was one who voted "too lenient'. My position is determined from the safety viewpoint. I do not advocate DQ, but I endorse a harsher (even draconian) on-track penalty, such as a five minute stop-and go.

Breaking rules designed for safety can lead to serious injury or death, it is that simple. The safety regulations are a result of what we have learned from previous tragedies.
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pokerman
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by pokerman »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:26 pm
JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:41 am
Interested in what the two people voting too lenient think the penalty should be - DQ?
I was one who voted "too lenient'. My position is determined from the safety viewpoint. I do not advocate DQ, but I endorse a harsher (even draconian) on-track penalty, such as a five minute stop-and go.

Breaking rules designed for safety can lead to serious injury or death, it is that simple. The safety regulations are a result of what we have learned from previous tragedies.
Sainz didn't see the lights either, steering wheel indicators or verbal communication from race control, like I've heard is used in some other categories, surely would be safer from drivers making that mistake, a 5 minute penalty doesn't stop a marshall being mowed down by a car unless you've taken the view it never would have happened if a driver knew he was going to get a 5 minute penalty because that driver did it deliberately?

It's not like a 10 second stop/go penalty doesn't ruin a drivers race anyway, but I guess in this case it didn't ruin the race enough?
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:33 am
No driver is ever looking to the outside of any corner. In fact, it would be dangerous for them to be looking to the outside of a corner as they wouldnt be looking where they were going. Their eyes are on the apex. There should have been lights on the inside of parabolica and a light at the entry of the pit lane.
The excuse that drivers are only looking at the inside is bogus. A driver learns to keep aware of things with their peripheral vision. One good example is braking into a corner. They must focus on the braking point and braking, yet we have witnessed a driver take action when a car attempts a move down the inside. I sim race, and after a few years I learned to be able to track other cars in my mirrors while busy. It is a learned trait, something we should expect of what are proclaimed as the best drivers int he world.

This is a unique corner, I grant that. But this is Parabolica, a very fast corner. And because of the tight barriers on the inside, a driver has a very limited view on what is 200 meters ahead. What if two cars got together and were both sideways on the track at corner exit? How do you inform the driver quick enough so they can take proper action?

Obviously, the relay from team is too slow. Lights or marshalls on the inside do not give enough time. So barring warning marshalls or lights on the outside of a corner like this, how do you make that corner safe enough?
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by angrypirate »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:42 pm
angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:33 am
No driver is ever looking to the outside of any corner. In fact, it would be dangerous for them to be looking to the outside of a corner as they wouldnt be looking where they were going. Their eyes are on the apex. There should have been lights on the inside of parabolica and a light at the entry of the pit lane.
The excuse that drivers are only looking at the inside is bogus. A driver learns to keep aware of things with their peripheral vision. One good example is braking into a corner. They must focus on the braking point and braking, yet we have witnessed a driver take action when a car attempts a move down the inside. I sim race, and after a few years I learned to be able to track other cars in my mirrors while busy. It is a learned trait, something we should expect of what are proclaimed as the best drivers int he world.

This is a unique corner, I grant that. But this is Parabolica, a very fast corner. And because of the tight barriers on the inside, a driver has a very limited view on what is 200 meters ahead. What if two cars got together and were both sideways on the track at corner exit? How do you inform the driver quick enough so they can take proper action?

Obviously, the relay from team is too slow. Lights or marshalls on the inside do not give enough time. So barring warning marshalls or lights on the outside of a corner like this, how do you make that corner safe enough?
Im not saying its an excuse - on the contrary the penalty is exactly what it should be and there are no excuses for Hamilton. But I do believe it was an honest mistake. The FIA though have to ask themselves whether the pit lane "open" signage was adequate at Monza. It sounds like a lot of drivers missed the signage and only got the msg through their teams, hence I dont believe it was.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

While the end result in this race was exciting, it was a bit of a farce in that Hamilton was too heavily penalized for such a minor infraction, but the penalty is given to the team and if you look at it that way, it befalls on them as a whole and they made the mistake. That said, I think a simple drive through would have sufficed and stewards need to also consider the level of danger and/or lack there of when considering what penalty is most appropriate.

At least this penalty/result wont have any bearing on the out come of the season, but I will say that I wish Sainz could have caught up Gasly one lap sooner so we could see them duke it out on the last lap.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by j man »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:26 pm
JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:41 am
Interested in what the two people voting too lenient think the penalty should be - DQ?
I was one who voted "too lenient'. My position is determined from the safety viewpoint. I do not advocate DQ, but I endorse a harsher (even draconian) on-track penalty, such as a five minute stop-and go.

Breaking rules designed for safety can lead to serious injury or death, it is that simple. The safety regulations are a result of what we have learned from previous tragedies.
In practice what is the difference between a five minute stop/go penalty and a DQ? If you're going to be put that far behind you might as well park it.

neil_1980
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by neil_1980 »

I think its a tough one...

Driving through a closed pit lane should definitely be a ten second stop/go. IF it was timed differently Marshalls could have been pushing at the pit lane entrance and it could have been a nasty incident.

However I think the issue with the penalty really in my eyes is it being extra harsh with the red flag/safety car. If it wasn't for that a 30 second penalty would have probably been closer to the mark.

The other end of the scale you have stroll getting a free stop due to the red which outs him on the podium... it seems to me that the red flag/SC had too much of an effect on the race.. as others say a VSC would have been much fairer all around even with a 10 second stop/go.

I do wonder why with all the money in F1 they cant stick some lights at the entrance to the pits like they do at the exit. Theres obviously some obscurity over it for two drivers to have made the same mistake

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

As I previously stated, there is no argument against the penalties received.

However, given this is a safety issue, and two drivers missed the sign, not to mention at least 3 teams who instructed their drivers to pit (Alfa, Mercedes and Williams) it demonstrates beyond doubt a failing in the systems in place for that particular pit lane closed indicators.

For one thing, this was a premeditated closure of the pit lane (ie, it didn't happen the moment Magnussen parked it, it was closed when they deployed the safety car) so it raises many questions.

Given this is being done for safety, why is there not a communication given to the teams? Why is there not a warning light on the steering wheel like for the flags? Safety issues are not something to catch the drivers out, so when there are options to improve the attention to the essential information then F1 needs to see what it can do to improve.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Exediron »

j man wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:51 pm
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:26 pm
I was one who voted "too lenient'. My position is determined from the safety viewpoint. I do not advocate DQ, but I endorse a harsher (even draconian) on-track penalty, such as a five minute stop-and go.
In practice what is the difference between a five minute stop/go penalty and a DQ? If you're going to be put that far behind you might as well park it.
None. I think any F1 team would retire their car immediately following a 5-minute penalty anyway.
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