POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

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Was Hamilton/Giovinazzi's penalties

Poll ended at Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:15 pm

Too harsh
13
24%
About right
39
72%
Too lenient
2
4%
 
Total votes: 54

JN23
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POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

I wanted to run a quick poll to see what people thought of the penalty Hamilton and Giovinazzi got for their pitting when pit lane was closed today.

A 10 second stop/go penalty was worth roughly about 30 seconds, just a bit more probably.

Editing to add: they both got two penalty points.
Last edited by JN23 on Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

I thought it was on the harsh side, I didn't think the punishment fitted the crime. A standard drive through (about 20 seconds) would have been about right imo.

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Invade
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Invade »

Too harsh, but to the letter of the law.

Also, Hamilton got 2 penalty points and is on 8 penalty points.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:16 pm
Too harsh, but to the letter of the law.
Is it written in the regulations that a 10 second stop/go is the punishment for what they did?

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Invade »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:17 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:16 pm
Too harsh, but to the letter of the law.
Is it written in the regulations that a 10 second stop/go is the punishment for what they did?
I believe so, yes. That's what I read elsewhere, but I admit I can't confirm that 100%. Hopefully somebody else will.

Also, I edited my post to say that Hamilton got 2 penalty points for the incident and is up to 8 points.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:18 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:17 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:16 pm
Too harsh, but to the letter of the law.
Is it written in the regulations that a 10 second stop/go is the punishment for what they did?
I believe so, yes. That's what I read elsewhere, but I admit I can't confirm that 100%. Hopefully somebody else will.

Also, I edited my post to say that Hamilton got 2 penalty points for the incident and is up to 8 points.
If that's the case then I have less of an issue with the penalty given but would argue the regulations have it too harsh in the first place.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by tim3003 »

Absurd. The penalties should be waived because there was no way drivers could see the light saying the pits were closed as they entered. The light was on the outside of Parabolica. The pit entry is on the inside. If they can have coloured flag indicators in-car these days, this 'flag' should be added to them..

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Asphalt_World »

The pit lane was closed because they wanted to push a car into it. It seems harsh because they both entered before the car had begun being pushed, but if there was a car and marshals in the pit lane entrance when a driver enters, you suddenly realise why they have to have the penalty as something more than 5 seconds added on at the end of the race.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:21 pm
The pit lane was closed because they wanted to push a car into it. It seems harsh because they both entered before the car had begun being pushed, but if there was a car and marshals in the pit lane entrance when a driver enters, you suddenly realise why they have to have the penalty as something more than 5 seconds added on at the end of the race.
I've got no problem with the penalty being more than the standard 5 second added to race time penalty that we see, I just felt what was given was harsher than required, especially with penalty points being added on.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by F1_Ernie »

Not sure why Norris didnt get a penalty for driving to slow in the pits.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Asphalt_World »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:25 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:21 pm
The pit lane was closed because they wanted to push a car into it. It seems harsh because they both entered before the car had begun being pushed, but if there was a car and marshals in the pit lane entrance when a driver enters, you suddenly realise why they have to have the penalty as something more than 5 seconds added on at the end of the race.
I've got no problem with the penalty being more than the standard 5 second added to race time penalty that we see, I just felt what was given was harsher than required, especially with penalty points being added on.
I agree it feels harsh, but when you consider that a closed pit lane means that all manner of things could be going on in the pit lane, you realise why it's regarded as a pretty big mistake.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Asphalt_World »

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Invade »

Alright, well there it is then. Punishable by 38.3(d) - a 10-second stop-go penalty.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Asphalt_World »

If there were lights at the entrance to the pit lane, that's fine, but the driver would have already headed way off the racing line and started to brake. Having the lights on the outside hasn't been a problem for drivers to see when they flash yellow for incidents, so can't be an issue for this kind of thing. It was a genuine mistake, nothing more.

Also, I believe the pit lane entrance starts well before the speed limit line is so as the lights are normally there (I think) then Hamilton or whomever would be heading through the entrance section and a significant speed. This is the exact same place the car needed to be pushed by the marshals.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by -K- »

I would have given it a drive through, 5 second stop-go at the very most. That would have cost them the time that the other cars would have spent pitting under normal conditions. The point of a penalty is to stop a driver gaining an advantage by breaking the rules, surely?

10 second-stop go is the maximum penalty that can be given I believe. Neither did anything dangerous, the Haas was nowhere near the pits and the closing of the pits was unnecessary (the car could have been safely recovered through the barrier from where it was.) They should have seen it, but equally some of the ex drivers were saying it isn’t how it would usually be done. The regulations should have the process nailed down if they are going to mandate a penalty such that the stewards have no discretion over it.

The drivers have received the same penalty for this as Vettel did last year for unsafely rejoining after an error of his own making and taking out another driver in the process. That’s wrong.

As for Hamilton being on 8 points, serious danger of totting given the late start to the season. None come off until November. He needs to avoid Albon’s car like the plague (4 picked up there and I don’t think all of them were deserved.)

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:20 pm
Absurd. The penalties should be waived because there was no way drivers could see the light saying the pits were closed as they entered. The light was on the outside of Parabolica. The pit entry is on the inside. If they can have coloured flag indicators in-car these days, this 'flag' should be added to them..
The teams were also informed.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by -K- »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:30 pm
Not sure why Norris didnt get a penalty for driving to slow in the pits.
Agreed. When you hand out a severe penalty for something but let somebody else off, it does start to feel that it is contrived. A penalty for Norris would have helped Bottas I’m guessing.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by KingVoid »

I remember drivers getting disqualified for a similar offence around 2007-08 when the pitlane was closed with every safety car.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:16 pm
I remember drivers getting disqualified for a similar offence around 2007-08 when the pitlane was closed with every safety car.
Massa and Fisichella got disqualified for leaving the pitlane when the light was red after they'd pitted, not for what Hamilton/Giovinazzi did. Alonso and Rosberg got the 10 second stop/go for pitting under safety car at the same race, Canada 2007.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by KingVoid »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:26 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:16 pm
I remember drivers getting disqualified for a similar offence around 2007-08 when the pitlane was closed with every safety car.
Massa and Fisichella got disqualified for leaving the pitlane when the light was red after they'd pitted, not for what Hamilton/Giovinazzi did. Alonso and Rosberg got the 10 second stop/go for pitting under safety car at the same race, Canada 2007.
That rule was an absolute mess, especially considering how back then some drivers had to stop because otherwise they’d run out of fuel.

Ironically enough that rule would probably be better nowadays when there’s no more refueling to worry about.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Probably a shade harsh. Neither were looking for any extraordinary advantage, especially Hamilton who had the race in his pocket, just an honest mixup.

In that situation with he safety car bunching everyone up and the compulsion to serve the punishment within a few laps of green flag racing a drive through penalty would guarantee that Hamilton would have been sent to the back of the pack and be sufficient IMO.

I can understand the stop/go as a deterrent though.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by wire2004 »

It's the right penalty because it is the rule. But I have to be consistent as I have previously stated that my thoughts is that all penalties should be the 10 second stop go penalty as standard.

The problem is as I have stated. And Jenson Button has stated. I have never seen this board before. Where is the traffic lights as the procedure should be.

In the 26 years I have watched formula 1. The pit lane closed signal has always been at the pit entrance. The traffic lights system that has always been in place. Not the boards that traditionally are used for the safety car and flags.

When did the board become the pit lane entrance board??? This has never happened before. because as mentioned. There is traffic lights at the pit lane entrance like there is at the pit lane exit.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

This is not a procedural or technical regulation, it is safety. And justifiably, safety regulations must be clear and carry weight. If not, serious injury or death can result.

Make all the excuses you desire, two drivers and their teams messed up while everyone else was able to follow the regulations and stay out.

A car stopped on the inside, just before the pit entry. Is it possible there were people scrambling around at pit entry preparing to extricate that stranded car? The next time this scenario repeats, a car could strike a trackside worker, or worse, a stationary tractor. Please remember that when a Formula One car slows down from going full chat, in preparation for pit entry, it is still traveling at a high velocity.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Exediron »

-K- wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:10 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:30 pm
Not sure why Norris didnt get a penalty for driving to slow in the pits.
Agreed. When you hand out a severe penalty for something but let somebody else off, it does start to feel that it is contrived. A penalty for Norris would have helped Bottas I’m guessing.
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:42 pm
This is not a procedural or technical regulation, it is safety. And justifiably, safety regulations must be clear and carry weight. If not, serious injury or death can result.

Make all the excuses you desire, two drivers and their teams messed up while everyone else was able to follow the regulations and stay out.
Precisely so. The rules that exist to keep competitors and marshals safe must always be placed above the rules designed to prevent someone from gaining an advantage. Hamilton and Giovinazzi broke safety rules, whereas Norris (maybe) broke a sporting rule.

Additionally, what Norris did is actually pretty common. He didn't go ridiculously slowly, so I'd say he got it just about right.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Remmirath »

They seemed fair to me. It was clear that both drivers both did break the rule, and although it would've been more clear for there to be a light at the pit lane entrance, there's no way that all the drivers and teams didn't know exactly where the lights were and what they meant. Both drivers passed two lights and the teams would've been informed, and Giovinazzi additionally could have seen the marshals already taking the car towards the pit lane. It's the stiffest penalty short of disqualification, and that seems about right to me for a safety rule infringement of that nature.

As far as Norris goes, I don't recall seeing somebody get a penalty for doing that before, so I'm not surprised that he didn't. Perhaps slowing other cars down going into the pits should be more frowned upon than it is, but it has appeared to be more or less accepted practice for some time now.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by wolfticket »

(I posted this in the race thread, but it's probably more relevant here)

In principle violations that compromise fair racing, gaining from cutting a chicane or jumping the start for instance, can be proportionate to the racing advantage gained.

On the other hand the penalties for violations that compromise safety have to be draconian and somewhat disproportionate to any advantage in order to act as a strong deterrent by virtue of potential consequences.

The two are often, and shouldn't be, conflated. Entering a closed pitlane where people may be in the firing line is the latter so is penalised as such.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Badgeronimous »

Go through a red light at club level motorsport and you're looking at a DQ.

Ultimately the onus is on the driver to ensure the pit lane is open before he enters, and..... obviously it's so rarely closed that nobody ever does check this, but it doesn't change that fact.

It was an honest error.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by tootsie323 »

There was a onboard replay from Hamilton's cockpit as he came around the Parabolica and into the pit entrance, where the SC / X lights were highlighted. Ironically, as he entered the pits, a digital advertising hoarding overhead just happened to have the word 'Box' on it.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Asphalt_World »

It's a genuine mistake from the drivers but needs a big penalty. A closed pit lane could be the result of a number of marshals having to be in the pit lane and therefore in a very dangerous place.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Asphalt_World »

It's a genuine mistake from the drivers but needs a big penalty. A closed pit lane could be the result of a number of marshals having to be in the pit lane and therefore in a very dangerous place.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

Interested in what the two people voting too lenient think the penalty should be - DQ?

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Clarky »

I felt it was a tad harsh but its the rule so it cant really be argued.

Imo they should not have pushed the car into the pits (yes I know it was close) BUT it should have been pushed backwards through the barrier. Mag placed his car perfectly for that very thing.

Would have meant a VSC or a double-waved yellow at most. It was an unnecessary red flag..

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

It's an open and shut case. Entered the pit lane when it was closed, and the regulations specify the penalty.

Now, the consequences of that penalty were significantly worse than they usually would be because the race restart meant the pack was bunched up so he was put to the back of the pack, and it was a one stop race so no one would be pitting out of his way, but that's just unfortunate circumstances. Without a bunched grid he probably would have come out in 5th place and could have potentially still won the race. He certainly could have made up the 30 seconds with the time remaining given his relative pace.

I am surprised the steering wheel doesn't have a pitlane closed light signal - like it does for the red/yellow/blue flags - but that's just a driver aid, the track signals are there as the primary signal to the driver.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Exediron »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:41 am
Interested in what the two people voting too lenient think the penalty should be - DQ?
That's the only penalty above a 10-second stop/go, so I assume yes.

There's an argument for a DSQ, and as Badgeronimous states you'd certainly get a black flag at most local tracks -- and possibly get kicked out to boot if they thought it was a particularly dangerous incident.

Hamilton's entry was fairly benign with no marshals actually in his way, so I think the stop/go was appropriate -- but I can understand the idea of a DSQ as well.
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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Lord Crc »

At least the last light passed their view from right to left as they came around the corner. These are supposed to be the best of the best, they should be able to see and react to a flashing light in their FOV. Harsh but fair, due to safety.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Clarky »

Remember this?

https://streamable.com/p08tyq

Was the rule changed?

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by JN23 »

Clarky wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:08 am
Remember this?

https://streamable.com/p08tyq
I had just read about this on Twitter - is the rule of 10 second stop/go being the penalty a new rule then?

The Stewards decision document takes into account the poor visibility and limited time for the team to react (which also applies to Hamilton), but that’s a big discrepancy in penalty. I guess inconsistency isn’t anything new.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... ciardo.pdf

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:12 am
Clarky wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:08 am
Remember this?

https://streamable.com/p08tyq
I had just read about this on Twitter - is the rule of 10 second stop/go being the penalty a new rule then?

The Stewards decision document takes into account the poor visibility and limited time for the team to react (which also applies to Hamilton), but that’s a big discrepancy in penalty. I guess inconsistency isn’t anything new.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... ciardo.pdf
The rule was updated because teams complained that Ricciardo's penalty was far too lenient. They wanted a hard penalty put in place because otherwise teams could decide it's advantageous to take the penalty and enter the pits.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by angrypirate »

I have no issue with how harsh the punishment was - I actually think its spot on. What the issue is here is there was no appropriate light showing the pit lane was closed. Those saying "ah, but there was a cross on the outside of parabolica" - yes you are right, there was, but NOT AN APPROPRIATE ONE. No driver is ever looking to the outside of any corner. In fact, it would be dangerous for them to be looking to the outside of a corner as they wouldnt be looking where they were going. Their eyes are on the apex. There should have been lights on the inside of parabolica and a light at the entry of the pit lane.

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Re: POLL: Hamilton/Giovinazzi penalties

Post by Herb »

Matthew Somerfield has the answers to some of the questions on here:
I agree completely will the penalty. Yes, it could have been signalled better - but the team were aware of it, just not quick enough to tell their driver.

Also - I think they could have easily used a VSC in this situation. The car was out of the way, cars running around the track at a much reduced speed would have been perfectly safe.

Why are they so reluctant to use it these days?

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