2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

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KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:09 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
Depends. Are you talking about Vettel at his best or Vettel now?

People often talk about prime Raikkonen (2003-2006) and the current Raikkonen in different terms because they are almost considered two different drivers.

It’s about time that we gave Vettel the same treatment, or is he not old enough yet?
I don't think he's different enough. Or at least that's not proven. He went from easily beating Webber to easily beating Kimi. It's to convenient to now say Vettel's suddenly had a big decline just because he's now being beaten by a different team mate. Especially as we have seen the same thing happen with Ricciardo as well.

Kimi's change was much more dramatic and much more obvious. I mean, if Vettel goes to RP next year and gets beaten by Stroll then perhaps you're getting evidence of a big decline. Right now we don't have that.

I think he just isn't running at the front now and many more mistakes are the result of that. We've always seen that from him really. Right from the beginning of his career.
Vettel’s racecraft in 2012 was nothing like it is today. He found himself in the pack lots of times that season, made plenty of great overtakes and not many mistakes.

Even in 2014, Vettel was dead slow that season but barely made any mistakes at all. He was just slow.

The rate of Vettel’s mistakes has accelerated since 2018.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:09 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
Depends. Are you talking about Vettel at his best or Vettel now?

People often talk about prime Raikkonen (2003-2006) and the current Raikkonen in different terms because they are almost considered two different drivers.

It’s about time that we gave Vettel the same treatment, or is he not old enough yet?
I don't think he's different enough. Or at least that's not proven. He went from easily beating Webber to easily beating Kimi. It's to convenient to now say Vettel's suddenly had a big decline just because he's now being beaten by a different team mate. Especially as we have seen the same thing happen with Ricciardo as well.

Kimi's change was much more dramatic and much more obvious. I mean, if Vettel goes to RP next year and gets beaten by Stroll then perhaps you're getting evidence of a big decline. Right now we don't have that.

I think he just isn't running at the front now and many more mistakes are the result of that. We've always seen that from him really. Right from the beginning of his career.
Vettel’s racecraft in 2012 was nothing like it is today. He found himself in the pack lots of times that season, made plenty of great overtakes and not many mistakes.

Even in 2014, Vettel was dead slow that season but barely made any mistakes at all. He was just slow.

The rate of Vettel’s mistakes has accelerated since 2018.
Since 2016 TBH.

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Johnson
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

The last race with no Mercedes/Red Bull/Ferrari, Singapore 2008 I believe? The same thing, SC influencing the outcome.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:39 pm
The last race with no Mercedes/Red Bull/Ferrari, Singapore 2008 I believe? The same thing, SC influencing the outcome.
Off the top of my head Canada 2012? Hamilton/McLaren, Grosjean/Lotus, Perez/Sauber.


Edit -

Actually Hungary 2012 Hamilton/McLaren, Raikkonen/Lotus, Grosjean/Lotus.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
I'm not sure if that's high praise for Bottas or damning for Vettel. It seems you have Vettel, Rosberg and Bottas in the same bracket?

Is Vettel a top-30 driver of all-time?


I'd love to see your top-30 list Mikey I'm sure you've got one. ;)
In terms of ability I'd put Vettel and Rosberg at a similar level with Bottas a tiny bit down.

I have a top 100 greatest list but when talking about greatness achievement has to be weighted which bumps Vettel up a lot in comparison to those 2. I have Vettel in the top 20 and Rosberg just misses out on the top 30.

That's interesting. Have you thought about making a list based on pure ability or is it just too difficult and accomplishments prove to be a useful added determining factor? I'd be curious to see your list particularly to see how an expert ranks the 100 best drivers over the whole of F1 history.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
I'm not sure if that's high praise for Bottas or damning for Vettel. It seems you have Vettel, Rosberg and Bottas in the same bracket?

Is Vettel a top-30 driver of all-time?


I'd love to see your top-30 list Mikey I'm sure you've got one. ;)
In terms of ability I'd put Vettel and Rosberg at a similar level with Bottas a tiny bit down.

I have a top 100 greatest list but when talking about greatness achievement has to be weighted which bumps Vettel up a lot in comparison to those 2. I have Vettel in the top 20 and Rosberg just misses out on the top 30.

That's interesting. Have you thought about making a list based on pure ability or is it just too difficult and accomplishments prove to be a useful added determining factor? I'd be curious to see your list particularly to see how an expert ranks the 100 best drivers over the whole of F1 history.
I'll think about posting it somewhere tomorrow.

I think just going on pure ability is too difficult really it becomes hard to know who had fantastic talent but never got the opportunity to show it for one reason or another. If you add in success then it at least gives you a much narrower pool in which to work from.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:28 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:28 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.
Like me you like to do the cross comparisons but with this you're just using personal opinion, Vettel beat Webber to a similar level he beat Kimi, we know that Kimi and Massa are close to even, Bottas beat Massa, let's not be saying it was close because it wasn't.
Qualifying pace is not the be all end all of driver ability.

Bottas can probably match Vettel on Saturday, but Vettel has more redeeming qualities than Bottas as a driver. He’s better at starts, better at tyre management, probably has better race pace, and has better racecraft (neither has great racecraft but I rate Vettel as the better overtaker).
Race starts seems a bit spurious, racecraft surely includes mistakes, not a Vettel strong point, qualifying is important for the race start, an area were Webber didn't overly trouble Vettel, however i will give it that Vettel has better race pace.
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tootsie323
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Johnson wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:39 pm
The last race with no Mercedes/Red Bull/Ferrari, Singapore 2008 I believe? The same thing, Renault influencing the outcome.
Allow me to revise that for you...
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KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:40 pm
Race starts seems a bit spurious, racecraft surely includes mistakes, not a Vettel strong point, qualifying is important for the race start, an area were Webber didn't overly trouble Vettel, however i will give it that Vettel has better race pace.
Regarding Bottas' racecraft: can you recall a single occasion where Bottas made a memorable overtaking maneuver on another top driver? (aka not a DRS drive-by when he has a huge speed advantage)

Here are some examples from Vettel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7k0lw2pNEg

Both of these overtakes were done on other top drivers, without a tyre life advantage.

Here's the thing regarding Vettel vs Bottas:

If you put both Vettel and Bottas at the back of a train of cars - with a quicker car - Vettel is more likely to tangle with someone. But if he does not tangle with someone, then 10/10 times Vettel will overtake his way through the train quicker than Bottas will. Bottas is very predictable when racing and does not go for overtaking moves unless they are safe. Vettel can be a bit banzai but is also surprisingly efficient at overtaking traffic.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:40 pm
Race starts seems a bit spurious, racecraft surely includes mistakes, not a Vettel strong point, qualifying is important for the race start, an area were Webber didn't overly trouble Vettel, however i will give it that Vettel has better race pace.
Regarding Bottas' racecraft: can you recall a single occasion where Bottas made a memorable overtaking maneuver on another top driver? (aka not a DRS drive-by when he has a huge speed advantage)

Here are some examples from Vettel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7k0lw2pNEg

Both of these overtakes were done on other top drivers, without a tyre life advantage.

Here's the thing regarding Vettel vs Bottas:

If you put both Vettel and Bottas at the back of a train of cars - with a quicker car - Vettel is more likely to tangle with someone. But if he does not tangle with someone, then 10/10 times Vettel will overtake his way through the train quicker than Bottas will. Bottas is very predictable when racing and does not go for overtaking moves unless they are safe. Vettel can be a bit banzai but is also surprisingly efficient at overtaking traffic.
I think Bottas has got less confident since the cars have got wider and struggled more close behind other cars. I think he was better at this in his Williams days in a way. Mexico 2015 was a very long time ago (although not as far back as one of Vettel's clips here) Coulthard was discussing what he was probably feeling when he was trying to pass Kimi this races based on russia just before. Bottas made a brave and fair overtake but Kimi didn't leave him enough space. Bottas got away with it, but this was one of the occasions where it likely would have been remembered as a good move had kimi allowed him space. But he certainly doesn't take optimistic moves that often. But then pretty much every driver that is around his level that does has had far more incidents over their career.

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Covalent
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Covalent »

Harpo wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:37 am
Covalent wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:24 am
Congratulations F1, first non-big-three win since 2013.
Not even one of them on the podium...
Yes that too. :thumbup:
One of my countrymen got the top 3 correct and won 34k€ on a 20c bet.. 8O

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:40 pm
Race starts seems a bit spurious, racecraft surely includes mistakes, not a Vettel strong point, qualifying is important for the race start, an area were Webber didn't overly trouble Vettel, however i will give it that Vettel has better race pace.
Regarding Bottas' racecraft: can you recall a single occasion where Bottas made a memorable overtaking maneuver on another top driver? (aka not a DRS drive-by when he has a huge speed advantage)

Here are some examples from Vettel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7k0lw2pNEg

Both of these overtakes were done on other top drivers, without a tyre life advantage.

Here's the thing regarding Vettel vs Bottas:

If you put both Vettel and Bottas at the back of a train of cars - with a quicker car - Vettel is more likely to tangle with someone. But if he does not tangle with someone, then 10/10 times Vettel will overtake his way through the train quicker than Bottas will. Bottas is very predictable when racing and does not go for overtaking moves unless they are safe. Vettel can be a bit banzai but is also surprisingly efficient at overtaking traffic.
Given the amount of mistakes that Vettel makes you just can't give racecraft has being a big plus point for him, he may still be better overall but that's not something I would want to lay my hat on.
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kleefton
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by kleefton »

Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:41 am
kleefton wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:19 am
The people comparing Rosberg and Bottas seem to have forgotten that Rosberg had it much easier because the 14-16' Merc was quite a bit more dominant than the 2017-2019 cars. Rosberg really only had Hamilton to worry about. Bottas had to worry about Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen and even Kimi to a lesser extent. Just made it a lot tougher. Rosberg had more of an attitude to him and was more of a fighter, but speed wise they are probably the same. I'd give the qualifying edge to Bottas and give the race to Rosberg

Also Vettel > Bottas for me. I cannot picture Bottas executing that 2012 Brazil drive that secured Vettel's third championship. Vettel is also a lot more agressive in wheel to wheel combat, will not spend his whole Sunday afternoons behind cars he is faster than, even if he sometimes gets it wrong. To me it seems very unfair to claim that Vettel at his best = Bottas. Not a chance.
But don't the stats show that Rosberg was closer on average in qualifying? Also he quite regularly gave Hamilton a sound beating in qualifying IIRC. It wasn't a case of Hamilton being edged out as is typically the case with Bottas, but Rosberg quite regularly put tenths on Hamilton.
Fair point. But persoally all the times Rosberg handed Hamilton his pickle in qualifying i always felt that it was Ham underperfirming. Hamilton did not become this consistent winning machine until mid 2017 imo. Before that there were quite a few weekends where he was off the pace. Even his former teammate Button mentioned it. He simply had weekends where he wasnt motivated. You dont see that anymore.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by schumilegend »

kleefton wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:40 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:41 am
kleefton wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:19 am
The people comparing Rosberg and Bottas seem to have forgotten that Rosberg had it much easier because the 14-16' Merc was quite a bit more dominant than the 2017-2019 cars. Rosberg really only had Hamilton to worry about. Bottas had to worry about Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen and even Kimi to a lesser extent. Just made it a lot tougher. Rosberg had more of an attitude to him and was more of a fighter, but speed wise they are probably the same. I'd give the qualifying edge to Bottas and give the race to Rosberg

Also Vettel > Bottas for me. I cannot picture Bottas executing that 2012 Brazil drive that secured Vettel's third championship. Vettel is also a lot more agressive in wheel to wheel combat, will not spend his whole Sunday afternoons behind cars he is faster than, even if he sometimes gets it wrong. To me it seems very unfair to claim that Vettel at his best = Bottas. Not a chance.
But don't the stats show that Rosberg was closer on average in qualifying? Also he quite regularly gave Hamilton a sound beating in qualifying IIRC. It wasn't a case of Hamilton being edged out as is typically the case with Bottas, but Rosberg quite regularly put tenths on Hamilton.
Fair point. But persoally all the times Rosberg handed Hamilton his pickle in qualifying i always felt that it was Ham underperfirming. Hamilton did not become this consistent winning machine until mid 2017 imo. Before that there were quite a few weekends where he was off the pace. Even his former teammate Button mentioned it. He simply had weekends where he wasnt motivated. You dont see that anymore.
So Hamilton all of a sudden eliminated all weakness when he was 35 yrs old ?? That doesn't make any sense..What makes sense rather is Bottas doesn't provide any competition to Hamilton who isn't pushed like before and thus doesn't make any mistakes anymore

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

kleefton wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:40 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:41 am
kleefton wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:19 am
The people comparing Rosberg and Bottas seem to have forgotten that Rosberg had it much easier because the 14-16' Merc was quite a bit more dominant than the 2017-2019 cars. Rosberg really only had Hamilton to worry about. Bottas had to worry about Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen and even Kimi to a lesser extent. Just made it a lot tougher. Rosberg had more of an attitude to him and was more of a fighter, but speed wise they are probably the same. I'd give the qualifying edge to Bottas and give the race to Rosberg

Also Vettel > Bottas for me. I cannot picture Bottas executing that 2012 Brazil drive that secured Vettel's third championship. Vettel is also a lot more agressive in wheel to wheel combat, will not spend his whole Sunday afternoons behind cars he is faster than, even if he sometimes gets it wrong. To me it seems very unfair to claim that Vettel at his best = Bottas. Not a chance.
But don't the stats show that Rosberg was closer on average in qualifying? Also he quite regularly gave Hamilton a sound beating in qualifying IIRC. It wasn't a case of Hamilton being edged out as is typically the case with Bottas, but Rosberg quite regularly put tenths on Hamilton.
Fair point. But persoally all the times Rosberg handed Hamilton his pickle in qualifying i always felt that it was Ham underperfirming. Hamilton did not become this consistent winning machine until mid 2017 imo. Before that there were quite a few weekends where he was off the pace. Even his former teammate Button mentioned it. He simply had weekends where he wasnt motivated. You dont see that anymore.
There's probably something to that, but also I reckon the two sides of the garage back in the Hamilton-Rosberg days weren't quite so parallel as they are now, not quite as transparent. So sometimes Rosberg probably had a better setup which Hamilton wasn't emulating, and perhaps there was a bigger discrepency in the ebbs and flows between the two regarding strategy in optimising for qualifying or the race.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

I reckon Hamilton is operating well within himself. Bottas is no challenge, on track or off it. He has another gear.

Lewis has matured right enough, very confident in himself. I would like to see his cage rattled again to see how he does respond, but Bottas isn't going to do it. Max could, but Mercedes are that half step ahead of Red Bull.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:18 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
I'm not sure if that's high praise for Bottas or damning for Vettel. It seems you have Vettel, Rosberg and Bottas in the same bracket?

Is Vettel a top-30 driver of all-time?


I'd love to see your top-30 list Mikey I'm sure you've got one. ;)
In terms of ability I'd put Vettel and Rosberg at a similar level with Bottas a tiny bit down.

I have a top 100 greatest list but when talking about greatness achievement has to be weighted which bumps Vettel up a lot in comparison to those 2. I have Vettel in the top 20 and Rosberg just misses out on the top 30.

That's interesting. Have you thought about making a list based on pure ability or is it just too difficult and accomplishments prove to be a useful added determining factor? I'd be curious to see your list particularly to see how an expert ranks the 100 best drivers over the whole of F1 history.
I'll think about posting it somewhere tomorrow.

I think just going on pure ability is too difficult really it becomes hard to know who had fantastic talent but never got the opportunity to show it for one reason or another. If you add in success then it at least gives you a much narrower pool in which to work from.
Sounds good - well whenever you're happy with it. It's a tough task. I'm curious how chaps like Mike Hawthorn, Mario Andretti, Jochen Rindt, Gilles Villeneuve and Ronnie Peterson will be rated, and who wins the battle of the Villeneuve pair. I'm also curious about many of the almost greats who almost never get mentioned in the top tier such as G.Hill, Fittipaldi, Hakkinen and so on. It's a pretty big project to take on seriously.

If I don't see it anytime soon I'll ask again this time next year. 8)

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Andretti is one of the hardest champions to rate because he rarely properly concentrated on F1. If he had I'm sure he'd be in the conversation of top 10 of all time. As it is I have him around 20th.

KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:52 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:40 pm
Race starts seems a bit spurious, racecraft surely includes mistakes, not a Vettel strong point, qualifying is important for the race start, an area were Webber didn't overly trouble Vettel, however i will give it that Vettel has better race pace.
Regarding Bottas' racecraft: can you recall a single occasion where Bottas made a memorable overtaking maneuver on another top driver? (aka not a DRS drive-by when he has a huge speed advantage)

Here are some examples from Vettel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7k0lw2pNEg

Both of these overtakes were done on other top drivers, without a tyre life advantage.

Here's the thing regarding Vettel vs Bottas:

If you put both Vettel and Bottas at the back of a train of cars - with a quicker car - Vettel is more likely to tangle with someone. But if he does not tangle with someone, then 10/10 times Vettel will overtake his way through the train quicker than Bottas will. Bottas is very predictable when racing and does not go for overtaking moves unless they are safe. Vettel can be a bit banzai but is also surprisingly efficient at overtaking traffic.
Given the amount of mistakes that Vettel makes you just can't give racecraft has being a big plus point for him, he may still be better overall but that's not something I would want to lay my hat on.
I think that racecraft and consistency should be two separate categories

Racecraft is how quickly can you overtake a pack of cars
Consistency is how rarely do you make mistakes

Vettel wins in racecraft, Bottas in consistency.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Harpo »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:47 pm
Andretti is one of the hardest champions to rate because he rarely properly concentrated on F1. If he had I'm sure he'd be in the conversation of top 10 of all time. As it is I have him around 20th.
Just because you elaborate your lists from datas. I, who elaborate my ever changing lists roughly from personal feelings, have always a place for Andretti in my top five...
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
I definitely do think that mistakes such as in Canada 2018 (?) were caused by Vettel trying to overdrive an inferior car, than Vettel being error-prone. Most recently, however, I would say his mistakes are due to much lower confidence and an unstable car.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

We may be moved to a Vettel vs Bottas thread like Bottas vs Albon if this keeps up!

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Vettel has been involved in way to many incidents since 2017 to say his racecraft isn't lacking.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

Du bist Spinmeister.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »



Very interesting discussion on the stop-and-go penalty. The team/pitwall are shouldering the blame.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:48 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Vettel has been involved in way to many incidents since 2017 to say his racecraft isn't lacking.
I think it is more inconsistent than lacking. I still think in Germany 2019, he had one of the best drives of any driver in recent years. That just happens far less often by him now.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:15 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:48 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Vettel has been involved in way to many incidents since 2017 to say his racecraft isn't lacking.
I think it is more inconsistent than lacking. I still think in Germany 2019, he had one of the best drives of any driver in recent years. That just happens far less often by him now.
Isn't the main thing Vettel did was keep it on the road? I don't remember anything extraordinary about the drive. Didn't seem particularly quick and had a platform at the end to be racey, though apparently was close to making a very serious error on the last lap. That's all my memory vaguely recalls.

JN23
Posts: 2437
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

Invade wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:19 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:15 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:48 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Vettel has been involved in way to many incidents since 2017 to say his racecraft isn't lacking.
I think it is more inconsistent than lacking. I still think in Germany 2019, he had one of the best drives of any driver in recent years. That just happens far less often by him now.
Isn't the main thing Vettel did was keep it on the road? I don't remember anything extraordinary about the drive. Didn't seem particularly quick and had a platform at the end to be racey, though apparently was close to making a very serious error on the last lap. That's all my memory vaguely recalls.
I watched Germany 2019 fairly recently and paid attention to Vettel as I remembered there was debate on here at the time about how good his drive was. My impression watching again was that Vettel started the race well and ended the race well (with the exception of his last lap mistake) when the track dried out, but in the middle he was pretty anonymous and just kept it on the road.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:18 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:52 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:40 pm
Race starts seems a bit spurious, racecraft surely includes mistakes, not a Vettel strong point, qualifying is important for the race start, an area were Webber didn't overly trouble Vettel, however i will give it that Vettel has better race pace.
Regarding Bottas' racecraft: can you recall a single occasion where Bottas made a memorable overtaking maneuver on another top driver? (aka not a DRS drive-by when he has a huge speed advantage)

Here are some examples from Vettel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7k0lw2pNEg

Both of these overtakes were done on other top drivers, without a tyre life advantage.

Here's the thing regarding Vettel vs Bottas:

If you put both Vettel and Bottas at the back of a train of cars - with a quicker car - Vettel is more likely to tangle with someone. But if he does not tangle with someone, then 10/10 times Vettel will overtake his way through the train quicker than Bottas will. Bottas is very predictable when racing and does not go for overtaking moves unless they are safe. Vettel can be a bit banzai but is also surprisingly efficient at overtaking traffic.
Given the amount of mistakes that Vettel makes you just can't give racecraft has being a big plus point for him, he may still be better overall but that's not something I would want to lay my hat on.
I think that racecraft and consistency should be two separate categories

Racecraft is how quickly can you overtake a pack of cars
Consistency is how rarely do you make mistakes

Vettel wins in racecraft, Bottas in consistency.
It's risk and reward, Albon was seen as having better racecraft than Gasly, he was making the overtakes that Gasly wasn't, however he was taking more risk and this year we are seeing more collisions.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Like when Vettel spun whilst battling with Hamilton in Bahrain last year because he was struggling with an inferior car, only trouble with that is his teammate Leclerc was a fair way down the road.

We see Vettel beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc yet Hamilton surely had a superior car to beat Vettel in 2017 and 2018 despite Vettel beating Bottas both years, Vettel leading in both years at the half way point had to be down to his superior driving?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:15 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:48 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Vettel has been involved in way to many incidents since 2017 to say his racecraft isn't lacking.
I think it is more inconsistent than lacking. I still think in Germany 2019, he had one of the best drives of any driver in recent years. That just happens far less often by him now.
I find it frustrating how often people relate great drives that have merely come from being assisted with SC's, Vettel was nowhere before the SC and then it took 1 or 2 more to get him back into contention.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35399
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:33 pm
Invade wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:19 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:15 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:48 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Vettel has been involved in way to many incidents since 2017 to say his racecraft isn't lacking.
I think it is more inconsistent than lacking. I still think in Germany 2019, he had one of the best drives of any driver in recent years. That just happens far less often by him now.
Isn't the main thing Vettel did was keep it on the road? I don't remember anything extraordinary about the drive. Didn't seem particularly quick and had a platform at the end to be racey, though apparently was close to making a very serious error on the last lap. That's all my memory vaguely recalls.
I watched Germany 2019 fairly recently and paid attention to Vettel as I remembered there was debate on here at the time about how good his drive was. My impression watching again was that Vettel started the race well and ended the race well (with the exception of his last lap mistake) when the track dried out, but in the middle he was pretty anonymous and just kept it on the road.
How did Vettel start the race well when he was struggling to keep up with the midfield cars on the wet track whilst Leclerc was running near the front?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rockie
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:36 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Like when Vettel spun whilst battling with Hamilton in Bahrain last year because he was struggling with an inferior car, only trouble with that is his teammate Leclerc was a fair way down the road.

We see Vettel beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc yet Hamilton surely had a superior car to beat Vettel in 2017 and 2018 despite Vettel beating Bottas both years, Vettel leading in both years at the half way point had to be down to his superior driving?
Vettel leading in both years was actually due to that, yes superior driving have a rewatch of the start of both seasons as early as barcelona Mercedes was already using Bottas tactically against Vettel.

JN23
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:33 pm
Invade wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:19 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:15 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:48 am


Vettel has been involved in way to many incidents since 2017 to say his racecraft isn't lacking.
I think it is more inconsistent than lacking. I still think in Germany 2019, he had one of the best drives of any driver in recent years. That just happens far less often by him now.
Isn't the main thing Vettel did was keep it on the road? I don't remember anything extraordinary about the drive. Didn't seem particularly quick and had a platform at the end to be racey, though apparently was close to making a very serious error on the last lap. That's all my memory vaguely recalls.
I watched Germany 2019 fairly recently and paid attention to Vettel as I remembered there was debate on here at the time about how good his drive was. My impression watching again was that Vettel started the race well and ended the race well (with the exception of his last lap mistake) when the track dried out, but in the middle he was pretty anonymous and just kept it on the road.
How did Vettel start the race well when he was struggling to keep up with the midfield cars on the wet track whilst Leclerc was running near the front?
He overtook quite a few cars in the opening laps. Leclerc’s pace wasn’t great compared to Hamilton/Bottas/Verstappen until he stopped for new inters.

pokerman
Posts: 35399
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:36 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Like when Vettel spun whilst battling with Hamilton in Bahrain last year because he was struggling with an inferior car, only trouble with that is his teammate Leclerc was a fair way down the road.

We see Vettel beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc yet Hamilton surely had a superior car to beat Vettel in 2017 and 2018 despite Vettel beating Bottas both years, Vettel leading in both years at the half way point had to be down to his superior driving?
Vettel leading in both years was actually due to that, yes superior driving have a rewatch of the start of both seasons as early as barcelona Mercedes was already using Bottas tactically against Vettel.
Superior driving in an inferior car, shame that Ferrari didn't see it that way and strange when Leclerc came on board that Vettel stopped to look so superior.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rockie
Posts: 2202
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 pm
Rockie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:36 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Like when Vettel spun whilst battling with Hamilton in Bahrain last year because he was struggling with an inferior car, only trouble with that is his teammate Leclerc was a fair way down the road.

We see Vettel beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc yet Hamilton surely had a superior car to beat Vettel in 2017 and 2018 despite Vettel beating Bottas both years, Vettel leading in both years at the half way point had to be down to his superior driving?
Vettel leading in both years was actually due to that, yes superior driving have a rewatch of the start of both seasons as early as barcelona Mercedes was already using Bottas tactically against Vettel.
Superior driving in an inferior car, shame that Ferrari didn't see it that way and strange when Leclerc came on board that Vettel stopped to look so superior.
I guess we can go back to his Redbull days and insert whatever Leclerc currently outqualifies him by and say Leclerc will be that + whatever Vettel did ahead in the Redbull then.

Vettel put almost a second between himself and Leclerc in Montreal.

pokerman
Posts: 35399
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:33 pm
Invade wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:19 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:15 pm


I think it is more inconsistent than lacking. I still think in Germany 2019, he had one of the best drives of any driver in recent years. That just happens far less often by him now.
Isn't the main thing Vettel did was keep it on the road? I don't remember anything extraordinary about the drive. Didn't seem particularly quick and had a platform at the end to be racey, though apparently was close to making a very serious error on the last lap. That's all my memory vaguely recalls.
I watched Germany 2019 fairly recently and paid attention to Vettel as I remembered there was debate on here at the time about how good his drive was. My impression watching again was that Vettel started the race well and ended the race well (with the exception of his last lap mistake) when the track dried out, but in the middle he was pretty anonymous and just kept it on the road.
How did Vettel start the race well when he was struggling to keep up with the midfield cars on the wet track whilst Leclerc was running near the front?
He overtook quite a few cars in the opening laps. Leclerc’s pace wasn’t great compared to Hamilton/Bottas/Verstappen until he stopped for new inters.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

JN23
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:58 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:33 pm
Invade wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:19 pm


Isn't the main thing Vettel did was keep it on the road? I don't remember anything extraordinary about the drive. Didn't seem particularly quick and had a platform at the end to be racey, though apparently was close to making a very serious error on the last lap. That's all my memory vaguely recalls.
I watched Germany 2019 fairly recently and paid attention to Vettel as I remembered there was debate on here at the time about how good his drive was. My impression watching again was that Vettel started the race well and ended the race well (with the exception of his last lap mistake) when the track dried out, but in the middle he was pretty anonymous and just kept it on the road.
How did Vettel start the race well when he was struggling to keep up with the midfield cars on the wet track whilst Leclerc was running near the front?
He overtook quite a few cars in the opening laps. Leclerc’s pace wasn’t great compared to Hamilton/Bottas/Verstappen until he stopped for new inters.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel
And?

Leclerc’s pace wasn’t good compared to the front three, I didn’t say it wasn’t good compared to Vettel.

Vettel was mid pack, having a mediocre race after a good opening.

pokerman
Posts: 35399
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 pm
Rockie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:36 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't think that Vettel falls down on racecraft anywhere. He has demonstrated in the past his ability to make his way through the field and, more recently, pretty much calling his own strategy. I believe his issues of late have been more down to trying to out-drive the issues he has been faced with, whether it's a car that wasn't quite there with the Mercedes or team strategy letting him down. Put another way, Vettel in a Merc in 2017-18 would have comfortably been WDC and would have had far fewer - if any - mistakes that we have observed in that period.
Like when Vettel spun whilst battling with Hamilton in Bahrain last year because he was struggling with an inferior car, only trouble with that is his teammate Leclerc was a fair way down the road.

We see Vettel beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc yet Hamilton surely had a superior car to beat Vettel in 2017 and 2018 despite Vettel beating Bottas both years, Vettel leading in both years at the half way point had to be down to his superior driving?
Vettel leading in both years was actually due to that, yes superior driving have a rewatch of the start of both seasons as early as barcelona Mercedes was already using Bottas tactically against Vettel.
Superior driving in an inferior car, shame that Ferrari didn't see it that way and strange when Leclerc came on board that Vettel stopped to look so superior.
I guess we can go back to his Redbull days and insert whatever Leclerc currently outqualifies him by and say Leclerc will be that + whatever Vettel did ahead in the Redbull then.

Vettel put almost a second between himself and Leclerc in Montreal.
Whilst off the top of my head Leclerc had Bahrain, Austria, Spa and Monza were Vettel was nowhere.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

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