2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

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JN23
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:03 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:57 pm
Bottas willbe taking a massive chunk out of Hamilton after a poor race.
I don't get why Hamilton didn't see these. Same with Giovinazzi. I did think that Hamilton was always really careful and very aware of the rules. At the speed he was going, he had plenty of time to see these. We can't defend him for Mercedes telling him to pit - as under normal racing circumstances at extreme speed, he's been smart enough to not box and make his own decision. He has much more obvious reason as well as far more time to ignore the teams call this time.
Happy to be proven wrong, but those lights on the left of the track looked like it said SC to me?

Edited: now sky have zoomed in it is an X and not SC.
Last edited by JN23 on Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fiki
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:02 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:00 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm
In reply to anyone thinking the car should have been left there for the rest of the race, however slight the chance of another car hitting it, who makes a decision on what positions a car is or isn't going to have a high chance of being hit? You can't do that. All cars must be removed to remove any doubt.
I don't think we're going to agree on this one I suppose. As a poster mentioned earlier, safety is all probability. Rationally thinking, the probability of hitting that car (that is designed such that it is safe against other F1 cars) at a dangerous speed is exceptionally low. Who decides is of course race control, who I would question his rational thinking ability.
It's an F1 rule to remove them, not a judgement to be made each time.
It is a rule to remove a car from a dangerous place, but it is a matter of judgement whether it is or isn't one.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:04 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:02 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:00 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm
In reply to anyone thinking the car should have been left there for the rest of the race, however slight the chance of another car hitting it, who makes a decision on what positions a car is or isn't going to have a high chance of being hit? You can't do that. All cars must be removed to remove any doubt.
I don't think we're going to agree on this one I suppose. As a poster mentioned earlier, safety is all probability. Rationally thinking, the probability of hitting that car (that is designed such that it is safe against other F1 cars) at a dangerous speed is exceptionally low. Who decides is of course race control, who I would question his rational thinking ability.
It's an F1 rule to remove them, not a judgement to be made each time.
Then that rule needs to be scrapped.
Fine, but nobody can blame the race director for today. That's what I've been saying for ages now!
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F1_Ernie
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

No one could overtake in the DRS train, you cant use the overtake button, it wasnt just Bottas struggling.
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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:05 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:03 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm
In reply to anyone thinking the car should have been left there for the rest of the race, however slight the chance of another car hitting it, who makes a decision on what positions a car is or isn't going to have a high chance of being hit? You can't do that. All cars must be removed to remove any doubt.
I beg to differ. How many cars were hit this way in the days before a car was considered to be in a dangerous place even off the track? I well remember the 1980s, and can't from memory say I have seen that happen. And even if an empty car is hit, that is a risk all teams subject their cars to all of the time.
But it's a rule I believe, not a decision to make. They've red flagged the race because the crash barrier is not young to do its job. Its no different to having a car in front of a barrier. It's just a rule to remove them wherever they are on the circuit, risky or not.
TBF there are parts of the track where there is no crash barrier. Presumably because a decision is made that nobody is going to crash there.

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purchville
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by purchville »

the red flag really hurts all of those drivers who stopped for tyres (legitimately)
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pc27b »

we just might get to see a totally unexpected winner, and lewis carve his way thought the field....excellent !

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:08 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:05 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:03 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm
In reply to anyone thinking the car should have been left there for the rest of the race, however slight the chance of another car hitting it, who makes a decision on what positions a car is or isn't going to have a high chance of being hit? You can't do that. All cars must be removed to remove any doubt.
I beg to differ. How many cars were hit this way in the days before a car was considered to be in a dangerous place even off the track? I well remember the 1980s, and can't from memory say I have seen that happen. And even if an empty car is hit, that is a risk all teams subject their cars to all of the time.
But it's a rule I believe, not a decision to make. They've red flagged the race because the crash barrier is not young to do its job. Its no different to having a car in front of a barrier. It's just a rule to remove them wherever they are on the circuit, risky or not.
TBF there are parts of the track where there is no crash barrier. Presumably because a decision is made that nobody is going to crash there.
Where is there no barrier? Are there just trees or a hedge?
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by A_Game_A_Day »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:05 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:03 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm
In reply to anyone thinking the car should have been left there for the rest of the race, however slight the chance of another car hitting it, who makes a decision on what positions a car is or isn't going to have a high chance of being hit? You can't do that. All cars must be removed to remove any doubt.
I beg to differ. How many cars were hit this way in the days before a car was considered to be in a dangerous place even off the track? I well remember the 1980s, and can't from memory say I have seen that happen. And even if an empty car is hit, that is a risk all teams subject their cars to all of the time.
But it's a rule I believe, not a decision to make. They've red flagged the race because the crash barrier is not young to do its job. Its no different to having a car in front of a barrier. It's just a rule to remove them wherever they are on the circuit, risky or not.
Can you please do us a favour and ID the rule?

I've been checking the Sporting Regs, e.g. section 22 and not seeing it. If it is a rule, then that would change the debate. Thanks

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

What happened to Perez to put him so far back?

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:05 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:03 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm
In reply to anyone thinking the car should have been left there for the rest of the race, however slight the chance of another car hitting it, who makes a decision on what positions a car is or isn't going to have a high chance of being hit? You can't do that. All cars must be removed to remove any doubt.
I beg to differ. How many cars were hit this way in the days before a car was considered to be in a dangerous place even off the track? I well remember the 1980s, and can't from memory say I have seen that happen. And even if an empty car is hit, that is a risk all teams subject their cars to all of the time.
Reggazoni Long Beach 1980

Does not justify todays practice, just to mention.
Thanks Paolo. I hope I can find footage of that. It's interesting to realize I couldn't watch F1 regularly at that point. I'm getting old! :D
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Is Stroll the luckiest man in F1 or the luckiest man in the world?

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Jezza13 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:09 pm
What happened to Perez to put him so far back?
Slow tyre change
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

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purchville
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by purchville »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:09 pm
What happened to Perez to put him so far back?
Lost out in the pit stop, fell behind Ricciardo and Bottas
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Crofty is right there. Good job Herbert wasn't with the stewards :D

He probably will have found a reason to punish giovinazzi but not Hamilton. I don't get how hamilton can possibly think it is worth arguing his case. Driving past those two boards had such an obvious warning of the situation. It is unusual, but Magnussen had to stop where he did - and there was a valid reason to close the pits.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:10 pm
Is Stroll the luckiest man in F1 or the luckiest man in the world?
How messed up are these rules that either Stroll can win the race or finish at the back, depending on whether the FIA allows them to change tyres for whatever reason.
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Greenman
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

.

So, why didn't the Marshalls just push the car 5 metres to the escape road rather than all the way to the pits ?

Weird.

.

wire2004
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by wire2004 »

You can clearly see the pit exit lights.

WHERE IS THE PIT ENTRANCE LIGHTS AS PER EVERY OTHER PROCEDURE.
THE FLAG LIGHTS IS JUST THAT. FLAG PANNEL AND SAFETY CAR LIGHTS...

Lewis Hamilton and Antonio Givonazzi have every right to be aggrieved.

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tootsie323
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Oh, the irony. Sky is showing an onboard of Hamilton highlighting the SC boards (which should apparently be red to indicate pit lane closed) but, as Hamilton enters the pit lane there is a big digital advertising hoarding that says Box just as he enters.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:09 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:05 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:03 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm
In reply to anyone thinking the car should have been left there for the rest of the race, however slight the chance of another car hitting it, who makes a decision on what positions a car is or isn't going to have a high chance of being hit? You can't do that. All cars must be removed to remove any doubt.
I beg to differ. How many cars were hit this way in the days before a car was considered to be in a dangerous place even off the track? I well remember the 1980s, and can't from memory say I have seen that happen. And even if an empty car is hit, that is a risk all teams subject their cars to all of the time.
But it's a rule I believe, not a decision to make. They've red flagged the race because the crash barrier is not young to do its job. Its no different to having a car in front of a barrier. It's just a rule to remove them wherever they are on the circuit, risky or not.
Can you please do us a favour and ID the rule?

I've been checking the Sporting Regs, e.g. section 22 and not seeing it. If it is a rule, then that would change the debate. Thanks
It was mentioned on radio commentary that it was always going to happen due to regulations. They didn't specify a rule number. (I tend to listen to radio commentary whilst watching races as it's better.)
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wire2004
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by wire2004 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:11 pm
Crofty is right there. Good job Herbert wasn't with the stewards :D

He probably will have found a reason to punish giovinazzi but not Hamilton. I don't get how hamilton can possibly think it is worth arguing his case. Driving past those two boards had such an obvious warning of the situation. It is unusual, but Magnussen had to stop where he did - and there was a valid reason to close the pits.


Because those 2 boards are not pit lane entry lights. The traffic lights that they have used for years. The boards are not pit lane boards. They are safety car and flag boards.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Bacus »

Hamilton will have a hard time entering the points!
Bottas favourite for win IMO.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

purchville wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:09 pm
What happened to Perez to put him so far back?
Lost out in the pit stop, fell behind Ricciardo and Bottas
But now he's lost another 6 places...

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by FormulaFun »

Bacus wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:16 pm
Hamilton will have a hard time entering the points!
Bottas favourite for win IMO.
Bottas hasn't overtaken anything since the start of the race

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

A mix of tough luck and lack of awareness. Hamilton far out in front and him and the team with little time to react to the circumstance. They should have been sharper but it was also sneaky timing.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ruste13 »

wire2004 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:14 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:11 pm
Crofty is right there. Good job Herbert wasn't with the stewards :D

He probably will have found a reason to punish giovinazzi but not Hamilton. I don't get how hamilton can possibly think it is worth arguing his case. Driving past those two boards had such an obvious warning of the situation. It is unusual, but Magnussen had to stop where he did - and there was a valid reason to close the pits.




Because those 2 boards are not pit lane entry lights. The traffic lights that they have used for years. The boards are not pit lane boards. They are safety car and flag boards.


What pit entry lights are you refering too? One right at the pit entry? So if drivers get there and its red do they reverse back out onto the track? That doesnt make sense cobba.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

wire2004 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:14 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:11 pm
Crofty is right there. Good job Herbert wasn't with the stewards :D

He probably will have found a reason to punish giovinazzi but not Hamilton. I don't get how hamilton can possibly think it is worth arguing his case. Driving past those two boards had such an obvious warning of the situation. It is unusual, but Magnussen had to stop where he did - and there was a valid reason to close the pits.


Because those 2 boards are not pit lane entry lights. The traffic lights that they have used for years. The boards are not pit lane boards. They are safety car and flag boards.
Erm... Chandhok explained that those two boards had a red X meaning the pitlane was closed It was obvious and Hamilton should have seen it.
Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kleefton
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by kleefton »

I don’t expect Lewis to make a lot of progress. The fact they can’t use different engine modes really is going to effect the racing. Stroll in prime position for the win imo.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Bottas has a golden opportunity here. Let's be honest you'd expect Hamilton to win from here.

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purchville
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by purchville »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:16 pm
purchville wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:09 pm
What happened to Perez to put him so far back?
Lost out in the pit stop, fell behind Ricciardo and Bottas
But now he's lost another 6 places...
I believe he got overtaken by Verstappen and Ocon on the restart?
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Bacus »

FormulaFun wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:17 pm
Bacus wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:16 pm
Hamilton will have a hard time entering the points!
Bottas favourite for win IMO.
Bottas hasn't overtaken anything since the start of the race
I think partly because there was a fast straightline Renault in front. I have a feeling he will get some cars at the start then Stroll not opposing much resistance. But I hope I'm wrong though! Would love to win anything but a Merc.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:19 pm
Bottas has a golden opportunity here. Let's be honest you'd expect Hamilton to win from here.
Verstappen couldn't overtake Bottas who was managing his cooling issues and haning back from Ricciardo. The Mercedes seems worse than others behind other cars. I think Hamilton would struggle to win from 8th.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:09 pm
Can you please do us a favour and ID the rule?

I've been checking the Sporting Regs, e.g. section 22 and not seeing it. If it is a rule, then that would change the debate. Thanks
This is what's in the Appendix L:
3. Cars stopping during a race
b) Should a car stop outside the pit lane, it must be moved as soon as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other drivers.
If the driver is unable to move the car, it shall be the duty of the marshals to assist. If such assistance results in the driver rejoining the race, this must be done without committing any breach of the regulations and without gaining any advantage.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

Standing start seems a bit wrong?

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purchville
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by purchville »

Isn't F1 great when the Mercs actually have to fight for it... best race in ages (so far)
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

I just remembered another time when Hamilton didn't see the pitlane was (still) closed...
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purchville
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by purchville »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:21 pm
Standing start seems a bit wrong?
It's been a rule for a while now, following a red flag
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:21 pm
A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:09 pm
Can you please do us a favour and ID the rule?

I've been checking the Sporting Regs, e.g. section 22 and not seeing it. If it is a rule, then that would change the debate. Thanks
This is what's in the Appendix L:
3. Cars stopping during a race
b) Should a car stop outside the pit lane, it must be moved as soon as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other drivers.
If the driver is unable to move the car, it shall be the duty of the marshals to assist. If such assistance results in the driver rejoining the race, this must be done without committing any breach of the regulations and without gaining any advantage.
Thanks Fiki. I agree with a lot of people that in relative terms, it wasn't in a particularly dangerous position, but it's not down to the race director to have a look and make a grey area decision on a cars safety. Like it or not, getting rid of it makes things as safe as possible.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

.

Well, apart from the right, wrongs and maybes, this second half of the race will settle ( HA ! ) the argument over whether "reverse grid" starts are a sensible way to go ?????

.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:22 pm
I just remembered another time when Hamilton didn't see the pitlane was (still) closed...
A Maple leaf just came to mind!
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