When were Ferrari this bad?

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tim3003
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When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by tim3003 »

Watching Ferrari fail to get either of 2 healthy cars into the top 10 at Spa made me wonder when they were last this bad. And when they had such a huge drop-off in performance from one year to the next..

My mind goes right back to 1980, when as Champion Scheckter scored only 2 points all year and even Villeneuve's skills couldn't get the car higher than 5th either. Ferrari finished 10th out of 11 constructors.

As the only team on the 2020 grid whose car is slower than last year's it can't be down to the engine alone.

Monza will presumably be a nightmare and Binotto's position will surely soon be questioned.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by pokerman »

1991, the year before Prost was challenging for the title, that year he called the car a truck and got sacked.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:41 pm
1991, the year before Prost was challenging for the title, that year he called the car a truck and got sacked.
That car was OK. Just not a championship contender. Prost didn't actually call it a truck either.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Ferrari is usually operating around the 7th-4th best car depending on track.

The last time they were this bad was 2014 so not all that long ago. Probably as bad in 93, 92, 81 and 80.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:41 pm
1991, the year before Prost was challenging for the title, that year he called the car a truck and got sacked.
That car was OK. Just not a championship contender. Prost didn't actually call it a truck either.
Well he said enough to get himself sacked.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:03 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:41 pm
1991, the year before Prost was challenging for the title, that year he called the car a truck and got sacked.
That car was OK. Just not a championship contender. Prost didn't actually call it a truck either.
Well he said enough to get himself sacked.
That is all a bit of a myth actually. He did say the Ferrari handled like a truck at the Japanese GP specifically because it had a broken steering arm making the steering extremely heavy. He was sacked as part of political maneuverings within the team.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Asphalt_World »

92 and 93 were pretty awful.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Asphalt_World »

I mean, there were 17 races in 92. Alesi retired in 10 of them and so did Capelli who only raced 15 races. Larini raced the final two races and finished 12th and 11th.

Ferrari have been far worse than in 2020.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Exediron »

Yeah, I think the OP is a little reactionary to the latest race in Spa. They haven't been nearly that bad all season long.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Just how much down on power are Ferrari compared to last year, or even this years other Mercedes, Renault and Honda powered cars?
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by tim3003 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:49 pm
I mean, there were 17 races in 92. Alesi retired in 10 of them and so did Capelli who only raced 15 races. Larini raced the final two races and finished 12th and 11th.

Ferrari have been far worse than in 2020.
Ferrari still finished 4th in the constructors championship in both 92 and 93, despite being miles behind Williams, Mclaren and Benetton. They were also 4th in 2014, and 5th in 81..

Who thinks they'll manage even 5th this year?

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by JN23 »

tim3003 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:13 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:49 pm
I mean, there were 17 races in 92. Alesi retired in 10 of them and so did Capelli who only raced 15 races. Larini raced the final two races and finished 12th and 11th.

Ferrari have been far worse than in 2020.
Ferrari still finished 4th in the constructors championship in both 92 and 93, despite being miles behind Williams, Mclaren and Benetton. They were also 4th in 2014, and 5th in 81..

Who thinks they'll manage even 5th this year?
I can see them finishing fifth, it’ll be close though. Spa and Monza will be their worst tracks all year and Renault’s best.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:13 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:49 pm
I mean, there were 17 races in 92. Alesi retired in 10 of them and so did Capelli who only raced 15 races. Larini raced the final two races and finished 12th and 11th.

Ferrari have been far worse than in 2020.
Ferrari still finished 4th in the constructors championship in both 92 and 93, despite being miles behind Williams, Mclaren and Benetton. They were also 4th in 2014, and 5th in 81..

Who thinks they'll manage even 5th this year?
I think things have changed somewhat since the early 90s where Ferrari were 4th out of 4 serious teams. In 2014 they had probably the 6th best car over the season. maybe the 5th at best.

To answer your question yes I can see them getting 5th if only because they have better drivers than the rest of the midfield and it's close enough for the drivers to make a difference (See Leclerc's two podiums). They might even scrape a 4th if they're lucky.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Asphalt_World »

tim3003 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:13 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:49 pm
I mean, there were 17 races in 92. Alesi retired in 10 of them and so did Capelli who only raced 15 races. Larini raced the final two races and finished 12th and 11th.

Ferrari have been far worse than in 2020.
Ferrari still finished 4th in the constructors championship in both 92 and 93, despite being miles behind Williams, Mclaren and Benetton. They were also 4th in 2014, and 5th in 81..

Who thinks they'll manage even 5th this year?
Where they finished in the championships is hardly relevant when out of 34 races, (two cars per race) they got two podiums and 20 retirements. I mean, more retirements than finishes!!!!!
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:19 pm
tim3003 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:13 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:49 pm
I mean, there were 17 races in 92. Alesi retired in 10 of them and so did Capelli who only raced 15 races. Larini raced the final two races and finished 12th and 11th.

Ferrari have been far worse than in 2020.
Ferrari still finished 4th in the constructors championship in both 92 and 93, despite being miles behind Williams, Mclaren and Benetton. They were also 4th in 2014, and 5th in 81..

Who thinks they'll manage even 5th this year?
Where they finished in the championships is hardly relevant when out of 34 races, (two cars per race) they got two podiums and 20 retirements. I mean, more retirements than finishes!!!!!
And were regularly more than 3 seconds a lap off the pace. Sometimes more than 4.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by tim3003 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:21 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:19 pm

Where they finished in the championships is hardly relevant when out of 34 races, (two cars per race) they got two podiums and 20 retirements. I mean, more retirements than finishes!!!!!
And were regularly more than 3 seconds a lap off the pace. Sometimes more than 4.
True, but reliability is far better for all teams today, and the grid is much closer.

Anyway, we can probably agree that 2020 will be Ferrari's worst year for nearly 3 decades. It reminds me a bit of 1991, with Vettel playing the Prost role. Next year could be even worse.

GP Racing magazine reports a restructure of the tech dept, with Binotto stepping back form any tech responsibility. Chairman John Elkann said " We are not competitive due to project errors. We have a number of structural weaknesses that existed for some time in aero and the dynamics of the car. We have also lost out in engine power."

My hunch is that last year's engine was illegal, and this was hushed up so as not to bring Ferrari (and hence F1) into disrepute. If it was legal, why haven't the FIA issued a technical clarification so other engine manufacturers don't go down the same path?

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Covalent »

The car's entire philosophy is probably designed around that powerful (and arguably illegal) engine without which it's nowhere. They've probably written off this season before it started and are entirely focused on next year's rule changes.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:29 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:21 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:19 pm

Where they finished in the championships is hardly relevant when out of 34 races, (two cars per race) they got two podiums and 20 retirements. I mean, more retirements than finishes!!!!!
And were regularly more than 3 seconds a lap off the pace. Sometimes more than 4.
True, but reliability is far better for all teams today, and the grid is much closer.

Anyway, we can probably agree that 2020 will be Ferrari's worst year for nearly 3 decades. It reminds me a bit of 1991, with Vettel playing the Prost role. Next year could be even worse.

GP Racing magazine reports a restructure of the tech dept, with Binotto stepping back form any tech responsibility. Chairman John Elkann said " We are not competitive due to project errors. We have a number of structural weaknesses that existed for some time in aero and the dynamics of the car. We have also lost out in engine power."

My hunch is that last year's engine was illegal, and this was hushed up so as not to bring Ferrari (and hence F1) into disrepute. If it was legal, why haven't the FIA issued a technical clarification so other engine manufacturers don't go down the same path?
2014 was probably as bad or nearly as bad. There was no Verstappen like figure hoovering up the podiums though so the best case was fighting for 3rd behind the Mercs rather than fighting for 4th behind the Mercs and Verstappen.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:48 pm
Just how much down on power are Ferrari compared to last year, or even this years other Mercedes, Renault and Honda powered cars?
I heard 50hp on Mercedes and I'm reasoning that they have lost about 90hp from last year.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by pokerman »

tim3003 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:29 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:21 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:19 pm

Where they finished in the championships is hardly relevant when out of 34 races, (two cars per race) they got two podiums and 20 retirements. I mean, more retirements than finishes!!!!!
And were regularly more than 3 seconds a lap off the pace. Sometimes more than 4.
True, but reliability is far better for all teams today, and the grid is much closer.

Anyway, we can probably agree that 2020 will be Ferrari's worst year for nearly 3 decades. It reminds me a bit of 1991, with Vettel playing the Prost role. Next year could be even worse.

GP Racing magazine reports a restructure of the tech dept, with Binotto stepping back form any tech responsibility. Chairman John Elkann said " We are not competitive due to project errors. We have a number of structural weaknesses that existed for some time in aero and the dynamics of the car. We have also lost out in engine power."

My hunch is that last year's engine was illegal, and this was hushed up so as not to bring Ferrari (and hence F1) into disrepute. If it was legal, why haven't the FIA issued a technical clarification so other engine manufacturers don't go down the same path?
Basically I would say that to cover up the deficiences in the chassis since perhaps 2018 they have relied on what they have been doing with the engine but still fell short so went further down that line until it started to stand out like a sore thumb, now they find themselves years behind in both chassis and engine development.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Schermerhorn »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:48 pm
Just how much down on power are Ferrari compared to last year, or even this years other Mercedes, Renault and Honda powered cars?
I heard 50hp on Mercedes and I'm reasoning that they have lost about 90hp from last year.
Ouch.

So they're basically running a 2016-level power unit?

Man oh man, why didn't they invest just as much into the chassis/suspension/tyre management side as they did into [cheating] the engine side?

Surely, you can't be so short-sighted and put ALL your eggs into one basket and hope for the best? :lol:
Last edited by Schermerhorn on Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by pc27b »

ferrari gave us false hope with their "legal" engine mods. it stinks no one is challenging merc, but tough cookies on ferrari. they can be embarrassed for the world to see. it seems they need massive change in their hq, and obviously car and pu design.

hilarious to hear vettel tell the pit wall "i'm not $@&^*($ passing the guys in front of me, come on think about it" the pit wall team seems totally clueless the car is so bad and they are running in the teens, not at the front!

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:52 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:48 pm
Just how much down on power are Ferrari compared to last year, or even this years other Mercedes, Renault and Honda powered cars?
I heard 50hp on Mercedes and I'm reasoning that they have lost about 90hp from last year.
Ouch.

So they're basically running a 2016-level power unit?

Man oh man, why didn't they invest just as much into the chassis/suspension/tyre management side as they did into [cheating] the engine side?
The 2017 car was really good but I suspect even back then they had started on finding alternate routes for increasing engine power, there was a change in the car regs and I believe Ferrari had a better car than Mercedes but the engine still lagged a little bit despite a big improvement, and it had a weaker qualifying mode.

In 2018 Ferrari made another big jump in engine performance and now had a better engine than Mercedes and a better qualifying mode, however Mercedes managed to improve their car and was probably better than the Ferrari, a kind of role reversal from the year before.

In 2019 yet another big increase in engine performance from Ferrari, in fact it was quite substantial, the engine was now far superior to the Mercedes however there was another change to the car regs and Ferrari got it wrong whilst Mercedes nailed it, overall having the better package.

For 2020 Mercedes were very concerned that if Ferrari built a decent car then they were in big trouble with their engine defecit so they set about finding different methods to build the best possible engine and found their biggest power jump in the hybrid era that being 25hp, this would still be 40hp short of the Ferrari engine if figures are to be believed.

Meanwhile Ferrari were building a car to take full advantage of their monster engine but that then got outlawed, so they got left with a car ill conceived for the engine they've had to use.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by pokerman »

pc27b wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:54 pm
ferrari gave us false hope with their "legal" engine mods. it stinks no one is challenging merc, but tough cookies on ferrari. they can be embarrassed for the world to see. it seems they need massive change in their hq, and obviously car and pu design.

hilarious to hear vettel tell the pit wall "i'm not $@&^*($ passing the guys in front of me, come on think about it" the pit wall team seems totally clueless the car is so bad and they are running in the teens, not at the front!
Vettel asked to pit for fresh tyres because it was obvious to him he couldn't improve his position, I think a 2 stop would have worked well, however the Ferrari reply was that it would put him behind Leclerc, it seemed perhaps they were more concerned about the Ferrari's fighting on track?
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:50 pm
pc27b wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:54 pm
ferrari gave us false hope with their "legal" engine mods. it stinks no one is challenging merc, but tough cookies on ferrari. they can be embarrassed for the world to see. it seems they need massive change in their hq, and obviously car and pu design.

hilarious to hear vettel tell the pit wall "i'm not $@&^*($ passing the guys in front of me, come on think about it" the pit wall team seems totally clueless the car is so bad and they are running in the teens, not at the front!
Vettel asked to pit for fresh tyres because it was obvious to him he couldn't improve his position, I think a 2 stop would have worked well, however the Ferrari reply was that it would put him behind Leclerc, it seemed perhaps they were more concerned about the Ferrari's fighting on track?
That shows you how dysfunctional the team is.

The reply should have been the effect of the new tyres wont offset the time lost to stopping!
Last edited by Rockie on Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Asphalt_World »

Look, Ferrari are shocking this year, nobody can deny this, but they have been worse in the past by quite some way. I'm a Ferrari fan and I'm not trying to throw a sticky plaster of this year and claim they're not too bad. They are shockingly bad.

However, as someone that watched Prost get so close the the title in a Ferrari and they saw then through the 92, 93 season, I can assure you they have been truly bad.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Ferrari in recent years sort of remind me of a football team who are spending money and sacking managers in pursuit of success that never happens.

They have been worse in the past, but given how locked in performance is in this era compared to the past - they've taken an embarrassingly big step back that's surely comparable with any bad time they've ever had.

Of course we all know the reason.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Ferrari have what us Forex traders called "analysis paralysis".

Too focused (or in shock) over the minute details that the bigger picture completely gets overlooked. Their race strategy reminds me of this...just purely reactionary and defensive rather than going on the offensive.

Can it get any worse? We'll find out in Monza I guess....
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Rockie »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:25 pm
Ferrari have what us Forex traders called "analysis paralysis".

Too focused (or in shock) over the minute details that the bigger picture completely gets overlooked. Their race strategy reminds me of this...just purely reactionary and defensive rather than going on the offensive.

Can it get any worse? We'll find out in Monza I guess....
This is giving them a pass saying they have tried so many different options and have info overload.

Right now every department is below par, and it is being exposed for what it is as there is nowhere to hide now, when your driver sitting in the car can figure out strategy better than the engineers and their AI computers you know how bad the rot is!

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by WHoff78 »

It’s a tough spot though. Ferrari took a bad direction on the engine front and have been severely handicapped as a result. With restrictions around 2021 and the rule change in 2022 they are left in limbo a little, and presumably focusing more on future regulation changes at this stage.

I only hope Renault aren’t doing the opposite, and putting themselves in a position to challenge for podiums, only to be of the pace again come 2022.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by DFWdude »

IIRC, I remember Ferraris being LAPPED by the dominant Williams at several races, 1990-1992. That's pretty bad compared with today.

Frankly, aside from the early years (50s-60s), I can't recall Ferrari as dominating ANY period other than the Schumacher era.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Covalent »

DFWdude wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:36 am
IIRC, I remember Ferraris being LAPPED by the dominant Williams at several races, 1990-1992. That's pretty bad compared with today.

Frankly, aside from the early years (50s-60s), I can't recall Ferrari as dominating ANY period other than the Schumacher era.

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They've been lapped in Hungary and Spain this year too.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:41 pm
1991, the year before Prost was challenging for the title, that year he called the car a truck and got sacked.
And Prost proved correct. After Prost left Ferrari got even worse, slumping into a decline that triggered the Ferrari Board of Governors to scrap many people and hire new personnel (the Ferrari "dream team") in the form of Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Marco Fainello, and Michael Schumacher in 1995.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by KingVoid »

Leclerc has already matched Alonso’s podium tally of 2014

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:11 am
Leclerc has already matched Alonso’s podium tally of 2014
Yes, but Alonso got points in every race he didn't retire from. This year's Ferrari seems incredibly track sensitive and inconsistent; it went from a genuine top four car in Austria or Silverstone to a bottom two car in Spa and Monza. At its best I think it's been better than the 2014 Ferrari without question, but at its worst it has been much worse.

... or maybe Alonso was the more consistent driver, but I think the gaps in Spa and Monza are too big to explain that way.
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by tim3003 »

So Ferrari are now down to 6th in the Constructors. I had thought their 40pt margin over Alpha Tauri would at least mean they stayed there, but after Monza it's only 14pts. Current form suggests that 7th is a good possibility..

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Asphalt_World »

At least their paint job for the upcoming Mugello GP looks fab!!!
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by tootsie323 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:35 pm
At least their paint job for the upcoming Mugello GP looks fab!!!
I gather that it's homage to their first F1 car. Just hope they are a little quicker...
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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:35 pm
At least their paint job for the upcoming Mugello GP looks fab!!!
Indeed!

When Leclerc was driving in third early in the race around the beautiful Mugello track - that was a nice moment. Didn't last long, though .

It's a sad era where pink Mercedes copies with mediocre drivers are top three potential-wise while Ferrari barely bests the dead last ones.

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Re: When were Ferrari this bad?

Post by Banana Man »

2014 springs to mind for me, I think Alonso was better than either of the current two. Probably 2009 too, minus a somewhat fortuitous win at Spa.
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