The end of Party Mode

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Covalent
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The end of Party Mode

Post by Covalent »

I'm sorry if there already is a thread on this and I just didn't see it. I'm a little amazed this hasn't been brought up very much yet (unless, again, it's just me not looking at the correct threads).
The Belgian GP was the last weekend the teams can use different engine modes between quali and race, so from Monza on only one mode can be used (aside from quali in/out laps and during a safety car).

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15169 ... -it-banned

Toto seems to think it will help them in the race, so maybe they'll lose a bit of quali pace but their race pace will be even stronger?
Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff said in light of the new rules, the ban on party modes may give the team more in hand as the engine is less stressed by running at full capacity in qualifying.

"We struggled in some of the races where we were quite limited in powerful engine modes, and if Formula 1 were to ban, in-season, certain power unit modes, then I think it will actually help us in the race.

"If you can avoid to damage your power unit in those few qualifying laps that you have available, in Q3 and then the odd lap in the race, the damage metrics goes down dramatically.

"So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.

"You must take into effect even if it may hurt us more in qualifying, which I'm not sure, and it's a couple of tenths, then it will hurt all the others in the same way.

"But for us, we are always very marginal on what we can extract from the power unit, and if we were to be limited in qualifying modes, then well, we will be stronger in the race."
So far this season Merc have had on average a 0.838s advantage over the best non-Merc, but in Q1 that figure is only 0.235s. I think everyone has seen that Q2 is where Merc usually start using the party mode.
Looks like the rest of the season especially Max will be closer to pole and at least splitting the Mercs more often. Thoughts?

Also I think Toto is downplaying their party mode, its superiority seems to be around 6 tenths over the rest of the field, and not "a couple of tenths".

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Invade
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Invade »

I highly doubt Merc's party mode is 0.6s better than, say, Honda's party mode. I think the best indication is looking at the differences between Q2 and Q3 times.

In Silverstone, the best Mercedes improved by ~0.25 more than the best Red Bull did.

70th Anniversary GP: ~0.00

Spanish GP: ~0.2 (This is where Merc used strat 3 instead of 2 IIRC and overall they gained substantially less than usual from Q2 to Q3 .. I guess about 4 tenths, but Red Bull also gained a lot less at the circuit in Q3, so I'm not sure how to read it.)

Belgian GP: ~0.4

...

Austrian GP: It appears Mercedes emptied themselves earlier, with basically no improvement from Q2-Q3. The improvement from Q1-Q2 was about 1.1s, Red Bull jumped up ~0.550 from Q2 to Q3, so I'll call this ~0.55

Styrian GP: not good for data - wet qualifying and Hamilton far better than the Red Bulls on the day.

Hungarian GP: It looks like Red Bull didn't feel safe so gave it their maximum boost from Q1-Q2 gaining ~0.5, Mercedes gain ~0.8 from Q2 to Q3 - difficult to know whether to trust this difference of 0.3 or to give Mercedes a Q2-Q3 advantage of ~0.7 over Red Bull's Q2-Q3 gain. Given the nature of the circuit, 0.3 seems far more plausible.

From this I'd guess that, relative to Honda, Mercedes will lose about ~0.30-0.35 seconds and this will make it far easier for Max to split the Merc's and snatch a pole or two on off days for the Merc drivers.




***

But I have no idea how teams are going to approach their newly calibrated engine mappings. With the margin and buffer Mercedes ostensibly have, perhaps they'll be similarly dominant. Maybe initially they'll err on the side of caution for reliability and then extend again after a couple of races. Same goes for the other PU manufacturers. Let's see who rolls the dice a bit more with mappings and how sensible teams will be.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Covalent »

Invade wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:38 am
I highly doubt Merc's party mode is 0.6s better than, say, Honda's party mode. I think the best indication is looking at the differences between Q2 and Q3 times.

In Silverstone, the best Mercedes improved by ~0.25 more than the best Red Bull did.

70th Anniversary GP: ~0.00

Spanish GP: ~0.2 (This is where Merc used strat 3 instead of 2 IIRC and overall they gained substantially less than usual from Q2 to Q3 .. I guess about 4 tenths, but Red Bull also gained a lot less at the circuit in Q3, so I'm not sure how to read it.)

Belgian GP: ~0.4

...

Austrian GP: It appears Mercedes emptied themselves earlier, with basically no improvement from Q2-Q3. The improvement from Q1-Q2 was about 1.1s, Red Bull jumped up ~0.550 from Q2 to Q3, so I'll call this ~0.55

Styrian GP: not good for data - wet qualifying and Hamilton far better than the Red Bulls on the day.

Hungarian GP: It looks like Red Bull didn't feel safe so gave it their maximum boost from Q1-Q2 gaining ~0.5, Mercedes gain ~0.8 from Q2 to Q3 - difficult to know whether to trust this difference of 0.3 or to give Mercedes a Q2-Q3 advantage of ~0.7 over Red Bull's Q2-Q3 gain. Given the nature of the circuit, 0.3 seems far more plausible.

From this I'd guess that, relative to Honda, Mercedes will lose about ~0.30-0.35 seconds and this will make it far easier for Max to split the Merc's and snatch a pole or two on off days for the Merc drivers.




***

But I have no idea how teams are going to approach their newly calibrated engine mappings. With the margin and buffer Mercedes ostensibly have, perhaps they'll be similarly dominant. Maybe initially they'll err on the side of caution for reliability and then extend again after a couple of races. Same goes for the other PU manufacturers. Let's see who rolls the dice a bit more with mappings and how sensible teams will be.
I'm curious as to why you believe the best indication is the difference between Q2 and Q3? I was using a comparison between Q1 and Q3 because Q1 is the only session they aren't using party mode, and I didn't want to compare Q1 to Q2 because of the differing tyre compounds used in Q2, so IMO the best comparison is Q1 & Q3 where we are seeing the 0.6s difference in improvement compared to the others.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by JN23 »

Renault for pole this weekend :D

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by JN23 »

I make it that the Merc on pole has gained an average of 0.480s over Verstappen between Q1 and Q3 so far this season (excluding Styria).

Interestingly enough, Red Bull gained more than Merc this weekend for the first time this season after the gain was reduced in Spain. Speculation again - could suggest that Merc didn't use full party mode this weekend, but who knows.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Invade »

Covalent wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:13 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:38 am
I highly doubt Merc's party mode is 0.6s better than, say, Honda's party mode. I think the best indication is looking at the differences between Q2 and Q3 times.

In Silverstone, the best Mercedes improved by ~0.25 more than the best Red Bull did.

70th Anniversary GP: ~0.00

Spanish GP: ~0.2 (This is where Merc used strat 3 instead of 2 IIRC and overall they gained substantially less than usual from Q2 to Q3 .. I guess about 4 tenths, but Red Bull also gained a lot less at the circuit in Q3, so I'm not sure how to read it.)

Belgian GP: ~0.4

...

Austrian GP: It appears Mercedes emptied themselves earlier, with basically no improvement from Q2-Q3. The improvement from Q1-Q2 was about 1.1s, Red Bull jumped up ~0.550 from Q2 to Q3, so I'll call this ~0.55

Styrian GP: not good for data - wet qualifying and Hamilton far better than the Red Bulls on the day.

Hungarian GP: It looks like Red Bull didn't feel safe so gave it their maximum boost from Q1-Q2 gaining ~0.5, Mercedes gain ~0.8 from Q2 to Q3 - difficult to know whether to trust this difference of 0.3 or to give Mercedes a Q2-Q3 advantage of ~0.7 over Red Bull's Q2-Q3 gain. Given the nature of the circuit, 0.3 seems far more plausible.

From this I'd guess that, relative to Honda, Mercedes will lose about ~0.30-0.35 seconds and this will make it far easier for Max to split the Merc's and snatch a pole or two on off days for the Merc drivers.




***

But I have no idea how teams are going to approach their newly calibrated engine mappings. With the margin and buffer Mercedes ostensibly have, perhaps they'll be similarly dominant. Maybe initially they'll err on the side of caution for reliability and then extend again after a couple of races. Same goes for the other PU manufacturers. Let's see who rolls the dice a bit more with mappings and how sensible teams will be.
I'm curious as to why you believe the best indication is the difference between Q2 and Q3? I was using a comparison between Q1 and Q3 because Q1 is the only session they aren't using party mode, and I didn't want to compare Q1 to Q2 because of the differing tyre compounds used in Q2, so IMO the best comparison is Q1 & Q3 where we are seeing the 0.6s difference in improvement compared to the others.
Because the gaps between Q1 and Q3 are so massive that I don't see how they're likely to provide any real insight over any putative party modes, so I have far more trust in the comparison between Merc and Honda (Red Bull) from Q2-Q3 as a general rule than Q1-Q3. Teams that aren't safe in Q1 and Q2 need to go full beans earlier, so I felt the best example would be to use the two teams who generally only need to get serious in Q2 but especially Q3. The reality is that there is a lot of guesswork and I have no idea what margins are being toyed with by the teams, but make the assumption that Mercedes have by far the most wiggleroom followed by Red Bull, which makes them somewhat useful for a Q2-Q3 comparison due to their more parallel standing.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Invade »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:46 am
I make it that the Merc on pole has gained an average of 0.480s over Verstappen between Q1 and Q3 so far this season (excluding Styria).

Interestingly enough, Red Bull gained more than Merc this weekend for the first time this season after the gain was reduced in Spain. Speculation again - could suggest that Merc didn't use full party mode this weekend, but who knows.

It might be that Mercedes compromised some ultimate speed for a reasonably high DF setup which anticipated rain. Also, Verstappen seems to have got a healthy dose of help from a tow whereas Hamilton lead from the front.

Maybe it's 0.6, maybe it's 0.2, maybe Mercedes are about to get nuked, but with their margin I frankly imagine they run a virtual anti-party mode in Q1. We'll find out soon enough tho. Gaps between Q1 and Q3 are humongous and I just find it hard to read much from it.

***
PS, it's worth noting that there's no actual ban on party modes. It's just assumed that the measures will more or less render them unusable. The superiority of the Mercedes PU might allow them to take a lesser hit than other manufacturers even accounting for a supposedly far superior party mode. It's gonna be very interesting to see how this pans out and I wouldn't be hasty to draw conclusions from just the first 1-2 races because teams will be figuring out margins, mappings, risk-reward.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by LBET »

I think engine map changes are quite alright. This is part of the tool kit for engineers to work with. My car/engine is better than yours is intrinsic to the DNA of formula 1 FFS.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Rockie »

I think this change is going to have some impact as its not only for qualifying as it affects in race too!

Although it might still not stop Mercedes, but could lead to interesting times!

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Lord Crc »

Toto Wolff wrote:So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.
As I understand the change they can't change modes during the race (either), so those 25 laps of "more performance" means without driver management of temps etc?

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Exediron »

Lord Crc wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:02 am
Toto Wolff wrote:So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.
As I understand the change they can't change modes during the race (either), so those 25 laps of "more performance" means without driver management of temps etc?
I think it means that when they settle on their one mode they have to use for both quali and the race, it will be less powerful than the current 'party' mode but more powerful than the current race mode. I assume he's talking about the energy equivalent of 25 more laps, since (I believe) you're correct that they won't be able to switch modes in the race either.

Alternatively, he means the engine lifecycle will have 25 more laps of rich fuel running available, or something like that.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by KingVoid »

How much better is Mercedes than Honda on race day?

Does anyone have a clue?

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by DeepPyro69 »

Judging by that performance, Redbull have just seriously shot themselves in the foot.

Mercedes hardly effected and the midfield swallowing Redbull.

I’m guessing Max will be able to drag himself up but will be no where near Bottas or Hamilton

D

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Invade »

The end of party mode, but not the end of the party. BIG L.O.L.

Gonna be super interesting to monitor this through the next few rounds.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Colour me shocked that a poorly thought out, hastily implemented, frankly gimmicky rule change designed to nibble Mercedes has seemingly failed.

On the face of it, the ban on different engine modes in the race has merely made Mercedes job easier by putting cars between them and their only consistent threat Verstappen. It's early days of course, but the early signs are not good at all.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Johnson »

Renault look like the biggest relative winner? That could be circuit specific, but Honda seem to have fallen a bit?

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Mayhem »

Well today was Christian Horners party and he can cry if he wants too.....

The desired effect of the ban didn’t hurt the team it was targeted at and Redbull seem to have lost out the most here with max not being able to claim his usual 3rd place.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by JN23 »

Probably too early to say who has won/lost out of Renault and Honda as Red Bull being a bit off the pace here is the norm. We’ll probably learn more at other tracks. But as others have said, so far it seems Merc unthreatened, Renault gaining, Honda down and Ferrari still bad.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Mort Canard »

JN23 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:50 pm
Probably too early to say who has won/lost out of Renault and Honda as Red Bull being a bit off the pace here is the norm. We’ll probably learn more at other tracks. But as others have said, so far it seems Merc unthreatened, Renault gaining, Honda down and Ferrari still bad.
Yeah, I can't see Christian Horner being happy with today's qualifying. With Sainz Jr. and Perez being ahead of Max.

Norris, Ricciardo and Stroll, being ahead of Albon probably doesn't help either.

Congrats to Christian for ending the Party Modes and thusly the Mercedes dominance!!! :lol:
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Exediron »

I don't think we can say it hurt Red Bull yet. I never expected them to be as competitive as normal in Monza.

... what we can say, however, is that it hasn't stopped Mercedes.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Covalent »

Well let's not get ahead of ourselves here, it was just quali. Tomorrow we'll see who had their engines turned up too much :lol:

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Flash2k11 »

I imagine all the engine manufacturers would have done their homework, I don't forsee any additional reliability issues for any of the front runners.... maybe for the B teams if they are being used as guinea pigs.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:13 pm
I don't think we can say it hurt Red Bull yet. I never expected them to be as competitive as normal in Monza.

... what we can say, however, is that it hasn't stopped Mercedes.
It has to highlight something like maybe the car itself is not good enough, but it's easier to blame other things.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Invade »

So it appears the second laughs go to Mercedes also. Lewis pushing hard to fight back to 7th from 20th and Bottas constantly stuck behind Norris for the race and, though managing, at least making it to the end.

MEANWHILE, Max had to retire his car due to the threat of a PU problem.

But ultimately, reliability was pretty good around the board at Monza.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Covalent »

Seemed to be much harder to overtake, I wouldn't be surprised if they revert the change pretty soon.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by JN23 »

Covalent wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:08 pm
Seemed to be much harder to overtake, I wouldn't be surprised if they revert the change pretty soon.
Yep that could be a good shout but they need to give it a go and see how it works at a few different circuits. Part of the lack of overtaking today could have been DRS trains which won't happen at some other tracks.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by ALESI »

I would really have expected Hamilton to end up higher than 7th, so did the lack of engine settings compromise him? Also wasn't Bottas moaning about it being impossible to race with the engine settings he had?

So then perhaps F1 has a decision to make, it appears it is possible to slow down a 'too fast' car, but in doing so you reduce the amount of overtaking. After all, overtaking can only really happen when one car is faster than another...
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Invade »

ALESI wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:50 pm
I would really have expected Hamilton to end up higher than 7th, so did the lack of engine settings compromise him? Also wasn't Bottas moaning about it being impossible to race with the engine settings he had?

So then perhaps F1 has a decision to make, it appears it is possible to slow down a 'too fast' car, but in doing so you reduce the amount of overtaking. After all, overtaking can only really happen when one car is faster than another...

Well, Hamilton did plenty of overtaking with limited laps and starting out 26 seconds or whatever it was behind the pack. Perhaps it will make overtaking harder, separating the men from the boys. Those who can really pass will pass. And of course Hamilton will pass because he drives a Mercedes... and he can really pass. As for Bottas...

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Covalent »

Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:07 pm
ALESI wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:50 pm
I would really have expected Hamilton to end up higher than 7th, so did the lack of engine settings compromise him? Also wasn't Bottas moaning about it being impossible to race with the engine settings he had?

So then perhaps F1 has a decision to make, it appears it is possible to slow down a 'too fast' car, but in doing so you reduce the amount of overtaking. After all, overtaking can only really happen when one car is faster than another...

Well, Hamilton did plenty of overtaking with limited laps and starting out 26 seconds or whatever it was behind the pack. Perhaps it will make overtaking harder, separating the men from the boys. Those who can really pass will pass. And of course Hamilton will pass because he drives a Mercedes... and he can really pass. As for Bottas...
How many McLarens did Hamilton pass? Not saying Bottas did a stellar job but the McLarens had far better top speed than the drivers Hamilton passed.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Covalent »

ALESI wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:50 pm
I would really have expected Hamilton to end up higher than 7th, so did the lack of engine settings compromise him? Also wasn't Bottas moaning about it being impossible to race with the engine settings he had?

So then perhaps F1 has a decision to make, it appears it is possible to slow down a 'too fast' car, but in doing so you reduce the amount of overtaking. After all, overtaking can only really happen when one car is faster than another...
Yes I recall Bottas saying the engine map was a joke.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Clarky »

ALESI wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:50 pm
I would really have expected Hamilton to end up higher than 7th, so did the lack of engine settings compromise him? Also wasn't Bottas moaning about it being impossible to race with the engine settings he had?

So then perhaps F1 has a decision to make, it appears it is possible to slow down a 'too fast' car, but in doing so you reduce the amount of overtaking. After all, overtaking can only really happen when one car is faster than another...
Hamilton had just over 20 laps after pitting and had to make up a 26 second deficit pushing his tyres hard.

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by F1_Ernie »

Covalent wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:38 am
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:07 pm
ALESI wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:50 pm
I would really have expected Hamilton to end up higher than 7th, so did the lack of engine settings compromise him? Also wasn't Bottas moaning about it being impossible to race with the engine settings he had?

So then perhaps F1 has a decision to make, it appears it is possible to slow down a 'too fast' car, but in doing so you reduce the amount of overtaking. After all, overtaking can only really happen when one car is faster than another...

Well, Hamilton did plenty of overtaking with limited laps and starting out 26 seconds or whatever it was behind the pack. Perhaps it will make overtaking harder, separating the men from the boys. Those who can really pass will pass. And of course Hamilton will pass because he drives a Mercedes... and he can really pass. As for Bottas...
How many McLarens did Hamilton pass? Not saying Bottas did a stellar job but the McLarens had far better top speed than the drivers Hamilton passed.
Exactly this, passing slower cars is alot different to the Mclarens. Tbh there wasn't alot of overtaking in the race apart from Hamilton and Kimi going backwards.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by pendulumeffect »

Maybe Party Mode can live on in Mercedes road cars? You change drive mode from Sport / Track / Race or whatever to Party Mode and disco lights come on and Pitbull starts playing on the audio system etc?

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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Covalent »

Lewis says they never had a party mode, and that someone made it up. Wasn't it Hamilton himself who came up with the term a few years ago? :?
Asked about the absence of ‘party-mode’ during the post-qualy press conference, Hamilton said, “I don’t think we ever had a party mode. That was something someone else made up.”
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/09/05 ... e-made-up/

Earlier last week...
"I don't know who called it party mode, but everyone has a party mode, basically. You go through qualifying you have multiple settings, you go through practice you have multiple [settings], and when you get to the end of qualifying you generally try to use the most powerful, which you can't use all the time.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by tootsie323 »

I just assumed that Party mode was simply the engine turned right up for one lap. Just call it Quali mode - or, for a bit of fun, Spinal Tap mode.

Edit: some context, for those not familiar with Spinal Tap.
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Re: The end of Party Mode

Post by Exediron »

Covalent wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:47 am
Lewis says they never had a party mode, and that someone made it up. Wasn't it Hamilton himself who came up with the term a few years ago? :?
Yes. Lewis was the origin of the term.
Hamilton suggested that Mercedes' pace in Barcelona testing had not been boosted by using the qualifying modes, saying he was looking forward to trying the 2018 versions in Melbourne.

"Our quali mode is the most fun mode - it should be the 'party' mode," said the world champion. "It is the most power and has the most juice, and it's when we hit the highest speeds..."
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