2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

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BMWSauber84
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

It all looked disappointingly routine up top. I have no idea what Racing Point were thinking with Perez's strategy which left him way too much to do and cost him a couple of positions most likely. Gasly was a bit unfortunate with the safety car, I think he'd have at least been in the fight P5.

Kimi Raikkonen being the lead Ferrari powered car fair and square on a track Leclerc won at last year was a sad sad day for the prancing horse. We can only hope that they are holding a fair bit back for the Italian races.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.

I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:55 pm
It all looked disappointingly routine up top. I have no idea what Racing Point were thinking with Perez's strategy which left him way too much to do and cost him a couple of positions most likely. Gasly was a bit unfortunate with the safety car, I think he'd have at least been in the fight P5.

Kimi Raikkonen being the lead Ferrari powered car fair and square on a track Leclerc won at last year was a sad sad day for the prancing horse. We can only hope that they are holding a fair bit back for the Italian races.
I'm not sure that will have cost Perez. Unless there were team orders, we can't confirm he will have passed Stroll who will have been on the exact same strategy had he pitted. And Perez was 2 or 3 positions behind Stroll at the time Stroll pitted too. It is questionable as to why they didn't pit him, but to be honest, I think there was a chance it could have benifitted him so it may have been worth the risk. I myself don't see that it actually effected him that much.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:20 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.

I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.
I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:22 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:55 pm
It all looked disappointingly routine up top. I have no idea what Racing Point were thinking with Perez's strategy which left him way too much to do and cost him a couple of positions most likely. Gasly was a bit unfortunate with the safety car, I think he'd have at least been in the fight P5.

Kimi Raikkonen being the lead Ferrari powered car fair and square on a track Leclerc won at last year was a sad sad day for the prancing horse. We can only hope that they are holding a fair bit back for the Italian races.
I'm not sure that will have cost Perez. Unless there were team orders, we can't confirm he will have passed Stroll who will have been on the exact same strategy had he pitted. And Perez was 2 or 3 positions behind Stroll at the time Stroll pitted too. It is questionable as to why they didn't pit him, but to be honest, I think there was a chance it could have benifitted him so it may have been worth the risk. I myself don't see that it actually effected him that much.
Only Gasly was between Perez and Stroll at the time of the safety car.

Given Perez clawed back almost a whole pitstop on Stroll with tyres barely fresher I think it's fair to say he had more race pace and would have finished ahead if allowed. He would have been in the Albon/Norris/Ocon fight. Given the straight line speed of the RP I don't think 5th was out of the question.

JN23
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:04 pm
Interesting comments from some readers on race fans. I didn't notice this, but it could explain why Bottas didn't have the speed at the end of the long straight on the first lap. There is discussion that Hamilton lifted to force Bottas to lose the extra momentum he had. Also, in the interview, apparently Hamilton said that Bottas was too close through eau rouge and had to lift. So I think this was more smart thinking by Hamilton rather than a poor attempt by Bottas. Bottas has done some very bold overtakes when recovering previously on this track, so I think he would have got it done had he got the chance. But he just didn't have the speed compared to hamilton after that.
Hamilton said he made a mess of the exit of turn 1 and Bottas had to lift through Eau Rouge as he got too close. Bottas is extremely cautious with Hamilton anyway. Look at turn 1 at the British Grand Prix.
This shows it well: https://streamable.com/4mn502

BMWSauber84
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:22 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:55 pm
It all looked disappointingly routine up top. I have no idea what Racing Point were thinking with Perez's strategy which left him way too much to do and cost him a couple of positions most likely. Gasly was a bit unfortunate with the safety car, I think he'd have at least been in the fight P5.

Kimi Raikkonen being the lead Ferrari powered car fair and square on a track Leclerc won at last year was a sad sad day for the prancing horse. We can only hope that they are holding a fair bit back for the Italian races.
I'm not sure that will have cost Perez. Unless there were team orders, we can't confirm he will have passed Stroll who will have been on the exact same strategy had he pitted. And Perez was 2 or 3 positions behind Stroll at the time Stroll pitted too. It is questionable as to why they didn't pit him, but to be honest, I think there was a chance it could have benifitted him so it may have been worth the risk. I myself don't see that it actually effected him that much.
They'd have had to double stack of course which may have hindered Sergio somewhat, but Perez seemed to have really quite strong pace on the hard tyre. With Gasly charging up being them, it may have allowed RP to let Perez go (if he got stuck behind Stroll) and build a gap.

With Perez staying out on the softs, they needed a miracle to get any benefit at all long term. It was a very strange choice.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:23 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:22 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:55 pm
It all looked disappointingly routine up top. I have no idea what Racing Point were thinking with Perez's strategy which left him way too much to do and cost him a couple of positions most likely. Gasly was a bit unfortunate with the safety car, I think he'd have at least been in the fight P5.

Kimi Raikkonen being the lead Ferrari powered car fair and square on a track Leclerc won at last year was a sad sad day for the prancing horse. We can only hope that they are holding a fair bit back for the Italian races.
I'm not sure that will have cost Perez. Unless there were team orders, we can't confirm he will have passed Stroll who will have been on the exact same strategy had he pitted. And Perez was 2 or 3 positions behind Stroll at the time Stroll pitted too. It is questionable as to why they didn't pit him, but to be honest, I think there was a chance it could have benifitted him so it may have been worth the risk. I myself don't see that it actually effected him that much.
They'd have had to double stack of course which may have hindered Sergio somewhat, but Perez seemed to have really quite strong pace on the hard tyre. With Gasly charging up being them, it may have allowed RP to let Perez go (if he got stuck behind Stroll) and build a gap.

With Perez staying out on the softs, they needed a miracle to get any benefit at all long term. It was a very strange choice.
I don't think they'd have had to double stack. Perez was a little over 3 seconds behind Stroll and could easily have gone a little slow into the pitlane and made that gap another few seconds bigger.

madasafish
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by madasafish »

Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Sam Collins suspects Mercedes were protecting a genuine PU problem for Hamilton today.



30:45
Sam Collins is sooo observant, on discussing the Gio crash, he talks about the investigation into how the front wheel and brakes came away from the car and collided with Rus, when clearly you can see it's Gio's left rear that has come adrift lol

He might have appoint with Hamilton, but I reckon they just turned down the engine, time will tell

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:20 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.

I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.
I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
I should have said i meant he is a better driver for the team. As a driver on the whole, i think rosberg is better, but not by much. They have thier own strengths and weaknesses.

kleefton
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by kleefton »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:04 pm
Interesting comments from some readers on race fans. I didn't notice this, but it could explain why Bottas didn't have the speed at the end of the long straight on the first lap. There is discussion that Hamilton lifted to force Bottas to lose the extra momentum he had. Also, in the interview, apparently Hamilton said that Bottas was too close through eau rouge and had to lift. So I think this was more smart thinking by Hamilton rather than a poor attempt by Bottas. Bottas has done some very bold overtakes when recovering previously on this track, so I think he would have got it done had he got the chance. But he just didn't have the speed compared to hamilton after that.
Hamilton said he made a mess of the exit of turn 1 and Bottas had to lift through Eau Rouge as he got too close. Bottas is extremely cautious with Hamilton anyway. Look at turn 1 at the British Grand Prix.
This shows it well: https://streamable.com/4mn502

This shows that it had nothing to do with his moment at La Source. He intentionally lifted before they went up Eau Rouge. He did the same against Vettel a couple of years back. The man has his tricks. :)

pc27b
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pc27b »

i think we all know spa is a beautiful area and track. for me it has always been enjoyable to watch f1 cars stretch there legs here. even if it isn't the most exciting race.
not so much anymore, flat out everywhere isn't as enjoyable to watch, here's to hoping 2022 regs does something about that

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Badgeronimous
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

pc27b wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:28 am
i think we all know spa is a beautiful area and track. for me it has always been enjoyable to watch f1 cars stretch there legs here. even if it isn't the most exciting race.
not so much anymore, flat out everywhere isn't as enjoyable to watch, here's to hoping 2022 regs does something about that
A bit like golf in a way where equipment had tamed many of the great courses.

pc27b
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pc27b »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:21 am
pc27b wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:28 am
i think we all know spa is a beautiful area and track. for me it has always been enjoyable to watch f1 cars stretch there legs here. even if it isn't the most exciting race.
not so much anymore, flat out everywhere isn't as enjoyable to watch, here's to hoping 2022 regs does something about that
A bit like golf in a way where equipment had tamed many of the great courses.
yes, a 350 yard drive and wedge to the green isn't that enjoyable to me either. equipment, computer swing monitors and player fitness have all changed it so much

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
Question on Alpha Tauri: I know a lot of us don’t rate Kvyat and I think a fair number of us don’t rate Gasly that highly either. Is that Alpha Tauri a really good car and say, not far off the midfield battle of RP, Ferrari, Renault and McLaren?

(I know it was definitely better than Ferrari this weekend but talking across the season)
I'm not sure how to rate Gasly, I'd like to see him be given a second go in the Red Bull.
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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:39 pm
I fully admit I am overly harsh on Bottas but only because he's so frustrating! He's so good but just not quite good enough to really compete with Hamilton regularly and he rolls out the red carpet too easily. He doesn't seem to be willing to do anything to get up in Hamilton's grill.

F1 would be so much more exciting this season and last if Bottas was just a tiny bit quicker and bit more contancarous out on track with Hamilton.
Sounds like you want fireworks, collisions ala Rosberg, however the teams thenselves don't want this, look at Ferrari, on paper a Vettel/Leclerc patrnership was a great line up, on the track not so much so Vettel was quickly dropped.

At least Bottas is able to keep Hamilton honest in qualifying so a Hamilton win in hat respect is never a sure thing, that's a better situation to have to what amounts to a one car effort from Red Bull.
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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.
Yeah it's a bit sad when integrity is frowned upon and the willingness to basically cheat is seen as a stronger virtue.
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

kleefton wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:34 am
JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:04 pm
Interesting comments from some readers on race fans. I didn't notice this, but it could explain why Bottas didn't have the speed at the end of the long straight on the first lap. There is discussion that Hamilton lifted to force Bottas to lose the extra momentum he had. Also, in the interview, apparently Hamilton said that Bottas was too close through eau rouge and had to lift. So I think this was more smart thinking by Hamilton rather than a poor attempt by Bottas. Bottas has done some very bold overtakes when recovering previously on this track, so I think he would have got it done had he got the chance. But he just didn't have the speed compared to hamilton after that.
Hamilton said he made a mess of the exit of turn 1 and Bottas had to lift through Eau Rouge as he got too close. Bottas is extremely cautious with Hamilton anyway. Look at turn 1 at the British Grand Prix.
This shows it well: https://streamable.com/4mn502

This shows that it had nothing to do with his moment at La Source. He intentionally lifted before they went up Eau Rouge. He did the same against Vettel a couple of years back. The man has his tricks. :)
This was what i thought. It was Hamilton's mistake that got Bottas close to him, but Hamilton deliberately lifting where you point out wasn't due to a mistake, it was good judgement and worked well to force Bottas to lose his momentum. This is why I don't really think Bottas could have done much more. Hamilton's lift was worth doing as without doing that, Bottas will have got by I think. This was more smart driving from Hamilton than a lack of attack from Bottas.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:55 pm
It all looked disappointingly routine up top. I have no idea what Racing Point were thinking with Perez's strategy which left him way too much to do and cost him a couple of positions most likely. Gasly was a bit unfortunate with the safety car, I think he'd have at least been in the fight P5.

Kimi Raikkonen being the lead Ferrari powered car fair and square on a track Leclerc won at last year was a sad sad day for the prancing horse. We can only hope that they are holding a fair bit back for the Italian races.
Perez has also questioned his strategy.
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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:20 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.

I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.
I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

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Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:53 am
JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
Question on Alpha Tauri: I know a lot of us don’t rate Kvyat and I think a fair number of us don’t rate Gasly that highly either. Is that Alpha Tauri a really good car and say, not far off the midfield battle of RP, Ferrari, Renault and McLaren?

(I know it was definitely better than Ferrari this weekend but talking across the season)
I'm not sure how to rate Gasly, I'd like to see him be given a second go in the Red Bull.
I think the AT is well in the battle with the RP, Ferrari's, Renault's and McLaren's. Either than or Gasly is much better than all the drivers in those cars and I don't believe that. I think Kvyat underperforming is flattering Gasly.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:20 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.

I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.
I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:20 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.

I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.
I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
It's not what we think they need to do it's what we want them to do.

pokerman
Posts: 35352
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:20 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm harsh on Bottas but in his defence on race day I dont see much difference between Rosberg and Bottas speed wise. When Hamiltons leading both drivers rarely threaten/threatened Hamilton but when there leading and Hamiltons behind then you get a race and Hamilton asking for different strategies etc. Nothing to be ashamed of having one the best ever quicker than you. Bottas is also fighting a better Hamilton and the best his been IMO. The main difference between Rosberg and Bottas is that Rosberg would do anything to win even if that was to have a crash, park your car or anything else. Bottas doesnt quite have that edge and I doubt he will find it now. Every season we have to listen to how we have a different Bottas turning up for the season and then it falls flat one race later.

I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.
I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
I think it may be as simple as people want to stop Hamilton from winning as many races, it's no coincidence that after every Hamilton win you're going to hear how boring the race was but the exact same race but with a different winner suddenly becomes a good race.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

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2018: 7th place

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Podiums: (8)

Asphalt_World
Posts: 4992
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

pc27b wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:28 am
i think we all know spa is a beautiful area and track. for me it has always been enjoyable to watch f1 cars stretch there legs here. even if it isn't the most exciting race.
not so much anymore, flat out everywhere isn't as enjoyable to watch, here's to hoping 2022 regs does something about that
Maybe next year's aero changes will make Eau Rouge, Pouhon and Blanchimont a bit more of a challenge.
Instagram @simply_italian_cars

kleefton
Posts: 4010
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by kleefton »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:53 am
JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
Question on Alpha Tauri: I know a lot of us don’t rate Kvyat and I think a fair number of us don’t rate Gasly that highly either. Is that Alpha Tauri a really good car and say, not far off the midfield battle of RP, Ferrari, Renault and McLaren?

(I know it was definitely better than Ferrari this weekend but talking across the season)
I'm not sure how to rate Gasly, I'd like to see him be given a second go in the Red Bull.
You don't want to see Gasly in the Redbull again. He will do the same as he already has in the past; he will be bad. After listening to Albon talk about his issues at Redbull during the pre race show, he mentioned that all throughout his career he would dial in more front end than all his teammates, except Max. According to him Max just does not mind having to constantly chase the rear of the car. It actually suits his driving style. He also mentioned how whenever he takes a corner better than max, the difference is only hundredths of a seconds. So every where else Max is killing him. So to me that may reveal that not only Max is special but the Redbull car has to have an oversteery balance in order to extract maximum performance out of it. Which explains why lesser drivers have such a hard time driving it, while they can look pretty damn good in a neutrally balanced car like the Alpha Turi. Gasly can definitely be fast, he and most drivers in my opinion will never be fast in the Redbull. So either they change their philosophy or they will continue to have a one man team imo, since no top driver is going to get that second seat.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17878
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:53 am
JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
Question on Alpha Tauri: I know a lot of us don’t rate Kvyat and I think a fair number of us don’t rate Gasly that highly either. Is that Alpha Tauri a really good car and say, not far off the midfield battle of RP, Ferrari, Renault and McLaren?

(I know it was definitely better than Ferrari this weekend but talking across the season)
I'm not sure how to rate Gasly, I'd like to see him be given a second go in the Red Bull.
You don't want to see Gasly in the Redbull again. He will do the same as he already has in the past; he will be bad. After listening to Albon talk about his issues at Redbull during the pre race show, he mentioned that all throughout his career he would dial in more front end than all his teammates, except Max. According to him Max just does not mind having to constantly chase the rear of the car. It actually suits his driving style. He also mentioned how whenever he takes a corner better than max, the difference is only hundredths of a seconds. So every where else Max is killing him. So to me that may reveal that not only Max is special but the Redbull car has to have an oversteery balance in order to extract maximum performance out of it. Which explains why lesser drivers have such a hard time driving it, while they can look pretty damn good in a neutrally balanced car like the Alpha Turi. Gasly can definitely be fast, he and most drivers in my opinion will never be fast in the Redbull. So either they change their philosophy or they will continue to have a one man team imo, since no top driver is going to get that second seat.
Reading that I'm reminded of very much of Schumacher. Both in driving style and in the effects accommodating that style had on team mates.

WHoff78
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by WHoff78 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:04 pm
kleefton wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:53 am
JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
Question on Alpha Tauri: I know a lot of us don’t rate Kvyat and I think a fair number of us don’t rate Gasly that highly either. Is that Alpha Tauri a really good car and say, not far off the midfield battle of RP, Ferrari, Renault and McLaren?

(I know it was definitely better than Ferrari this weekend but talking across the season)
I'm not sure how to rate Gasly, I'd like to see him be given a second go in the Red Bull.
You don't want to see Gasly in the Redbull again. He will do the same as he already has in the past; he will be bad. After listening to Albon talk about his issues at Redbull during the pre race show, he mentioned that all throughout his career he would dial in more front end than all his teammates, except Max. According to him Max just does not mind having to constantly chase the rear of the car. It actually suits his driving style. He also mentioned how whenever he takes a corner better than max, the difference is only hundredths of a seconds. So every where else Max is killing him. So to me that may reveal that not only Max is special but the Redbull car has to have an oversteery balance in order to extract maximum performance out of it. Which explains why lesser drivers have such a hard time driving it, while they can look pretty damn good in a neutrally balanced car like the Alpha Turi. Gasly can definitely be fast, he and most drivers in my opinion will never be fast in the Redbull. So either they change their philosophy or they will continue to have a one man team imo, since no top driver is going to get that second seat.
Reading that I'm reminded of very much of Schumacher. Both in driving style and in the effects accommodating that style had on team mates.
Does that not seem odd when so much of the focus in races currently is managing pace to limit tyre wear. Perhaps I’m missing something but having a car with more oversteer not be counter-intuitive to that approach. Would it help Red Bull and Max find more time?

mikeyg123
Posts: 17878
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

True although worth remembering that the fronts usually go before the rears.

Paolo_Lasardi
Posts: 2576
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:20 pm



I'm not against anyone saying Bottas doesn't try hard enough and isn't entertaining to watch, but what you mention about Rosberg is as much or more of a disadvantage than Bottas beign weak in this area. The amount of times Rosberg and Hamilton collided or messed up at times cost the team a sudden and very large amount of points. Even Bottas more often finishign one or two places further back isn't as bad as that for the team. froma teams point of view, I think it is stronger than it was with Rosberg and Bottas is a better driver in that aspect. I'd also say Bottas's defending was slightly better. But his attempts for overtakes are his weakness, but then they vertually never go the wrong way - which they did several times for Rosberg. Boring as he may be, I think Bottas is better, but for a different reason. Race pace and overtaking opportunities would obviously go to Rosberg, but I would have to say that some of those have been pretty clumsy.
I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
I think it may be as simple as people want to stop Hamilton from winning as many races, it's no coincidence that after every Hamilton win you're going to hear how boring the race was but the exact same race but with a different winner suddenly becomes a good race.
That's hardly surprising since it is the predictability of Hamilton winning that bores many (me included). Uncertainty of outcome is a strong driver for the entertainment factor of sports - not only within races but also between races.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17878
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm


I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
I think it may be as simple as people want to stop Hamilton from winning as many races, it's no coincidence that after every Hamilton win you're going to hear how boring the race was but the exact same race but with a different winner suddenly becomes a good race.
That's hardly surprising since it is the predictability of Hamilton winning that bores many (me included). Uncertainty of outcome is a strong driver for the entertainment factor of sports - not only within races but also between races.
Exactly. Norris or Ocon winning in dominant fashion would be a lot more exciting than Hamilton registering another unchallenged victory.

pokerman
Posts: 35352
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

kleefton wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:53 am
JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
Question on Alpha Tauri: I know a lot of us don’t rate Kvyat and I think a fair number of us don’t rate Gasly that highly either. Is that Alpha Tauri a really good car and say, not far off the midfield battle of RP, Ferrari, Renault and McLaren?

(I know it was definitely better than Ferrari this weekend but talking across the season)
I'm not sure how to rate Gasly, I'd like to see him be given a second go in the Red Bull.
You don't want to see Gasly in the Redbull again. He will do the same as he already has in the past; he will be bad. After listening to Albon talk about his issues at Redbull during the pre race show, he mentioned that all throughout his career he would dial in more front end than all his teammates, except Max. According to him Max just does not mind having to constantly chase the rear of the car. It actually suits his driving style. He also mentioned how whenever he takes a corner better than max, the difference is only hundredths of a seconds. So every where else Max is killing him. So to me that may reveal that not only Max is special but the Redbull car has to have an oversteery balance in order to extract maximum performance out of it. Which explains why lesser drivers have such a hard time driving it, while they can look pretty damn good in a neutrally balanced car like the Alpha Turi. Gasly can definitely be fast, he and most drivers in my opinion will never be fast in the Redbull. So either they change their philosophy or they will continue to have a one man team imo, since no top driver is going to get that second seat.
It's interesting how I've read before that the limitations of a car is how much instability a driver can live with, however I believe teams don't always pander to the one driver, they try and suit both drivers, I often wonder how the design of cars maybe sometimes are held back by the needs of the slower driver, for instance during the Hamilton/Button partnership the fastest Mclaren was the 2012 car, in Hamilton's hands it was overall the fastest car that year but Button said it was the worse McLaren that he drove, it was only incredible bad luck for Hamilton that stopped Button getting a thrashing on points.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35352
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm


I don't understand here if you're saying Bottas is better than Rosberg in certain aspects or overall. If it's overall, I just can't see this.
Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
I think it may be as simple as people want to stop Hamilton from winning as many races, it's no coincidence that after every Hamilton win you're going to hear how boring the race was but the exact same race but with a different winner suddenly becomes a good race.
That's hardly surprising since it is the predictability of Hamilton winning that bores many (me included). Uncertainty of outcome is a strong driver for the entertainment factor of sports - not only within races but also between races.
A different winner doesn't necessarily mean that the race itself was still not boring if we are using the same metric of what might make a race exciting.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35352
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:58 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm

Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
I think it may be as simple as people want to stop Hamilton from winning as many races, it's no coincidence that after every Hamilton win you're going to hear how boring the race was but the exact same race but with a different winner suddenly becomes a good race.
That's hardly surprising since it is the predictability of Hamilton winning that bores many (me included). Uncertainty of outcome is a strong driver for the entertainment factor of sports - not only within races but also between races.
Exactly. Norris or Ocon winning in dominant fashion would be a lot more exciting than Hamilton registering another unchallenged victory.
So any tier 2 driver winner denotes an exciting race as opposed to an actual better driver winning the race, that's not exactly a metriocracy more like let's share the wins out in a nice unpredictible manner, I watch sports to see excellence excel, it's boring that the best do well?

Also I'm not sure how a tier 2 driver actually dominates a race anyway?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
Posts: 17878
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

It's boring to see the same person do the same thing over and over again. It's less so seeing someone rise to hitherto unsuspected heights and put in a performance people will be talking about for years?

People still talk about Capelli almost winning France 1990 for example. In 30 years nobody will be talking about Hamilton winning Spa 2020.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17878
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:30 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 pm

Bottas is better for the team, with Rosberg still on board Mercedes may have not won the 2017 and 2018 WDC titles.
While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
I think it may be as simple as people want to stop Hamilton from winning as many races, it's no coincidence that after every Hamilton win you're going to hear how boring the race was but the exact same race but with a different winner suddenly becomes a good race.
That's hardly surprising since it is the predictability of Hamilton winning that bores many (me included). Uncertainty of outcome is a strong driver for the entertainment factor of sports - not only within races but also between races.
A different winner doesn't necessarily mean that the race itself was still not boring if we are using the same metric of what might make a race exciting.
A different winner is in itself exciting occurrence.

ALESI
Posts: 2418
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by ALESI »

F1nut wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:28 pm
ALESI wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:38 am
I don't get why though? Why is it a problem to run wide at Copse, but yesterday there were 3 or 4 corners where every single lap every car was over the white line and it's apparently 'fine'. It used to be the same at Magny Cours, the last corner every single car was over the line before the straight. I know 'consistency' isn't F1's strong point, but it must be confusing for casual viewers... imagine if the lines in tennis or football were only enforced randomly.
It ain't the "white" line here at Spa - it's the Red/Yellow line that denotes the track limit.
Is it? So as long as you don't go beyond the three foot wide kerbs... that's ridiculous.
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Fiki
Posts: 8054
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

F1nut wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:28 pm
ALESI wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:38 am
I don't get why though? Why is it a problem to run wide at Copse, but yesterday there were 3 or 4 corners where every single lap every car was over the white line and it's apparently 'fine'. It used to be the same at Magny Cours, the last corner every single car was over the line before the straight. I know 'consistency' isn't F1's strong point, but it must be confusing for casual viewers... imagine if the lines in tennis or football were only enforced randomly.
It ain't the "white" line here at Spa - it's the Red/Yellow line that denotes the track limit.
It IS the white line at Francorchamps, just as it is everywhere according to the International Sporting Code. The problem is that for some unexplained reasons, the Event Notes only single out a few corners where running off the track is policed. Gaining time or not can simply not be the reason for allowing it, because if at certain corners time were supposedly not won by using the kerbs as the track, then fewer cars would be doing so, and risk losing the car as Giovinazzi did. Why the FIA go along with this nonsense is beyond me.

I think that Asphalt World gave us the hint of what is considered gaining a lasting advantage, passing a car. Clearly gaining time isn't considered substantial enough anymore to warrant a penalty. And yet gaining time can get you into DRS range sooner than simply driving fast enough on what is considered the track.

I believe that the main reason for allowing going off-track is the same as that for widening the wings and increasing downforce massively in 2017: impressing the casual fans with record lap times.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

pokerman
Posts: 35352
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:35 am
It's boring to see the same person do the same thing over and over again. It's less so seeing someone rise to hitherto unsuspected heights and put in a performance people will be talking about for years?

People still talk about Capelli almost winning France 1990 for example. In 30 years nobody will be talking about Hamilton winning Spa 2020.
Are people still talking about that, I've totally forgot about the circumstances of the race, I believe he was driving an Adrian Newey designed Leyton House?

I also can't remember the details of Alesi's only F1 win that came with Ferrari, and certainly I wouldn't expect people to remember all of Hamilton's 89 wins but there's quite a few I won't forget like from this year when he won on 3 wheels.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35352
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Belgian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:36 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:30 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:13 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:47 pm


While I am not sure Rosberg will have deducted that many points, I do still wonder why so many people (not on this forum exactly) think Mercedes need to get rid of Bottas and replace him with a driver that will fight Hamilton hard. Some only think of it from an entertainment point of view and don't take into account that Hamilton being excellent and Bottas just being very good - and not good enough to frequently challenge is almost ideal for the team. Bottas could certainly be better at times, but i realyl think the team would struggle to find a better driver to suit what they want than Bottas at the moment and there is no need to change the lien up. The only chance Bottas has of getting closer to hamilton now I think is if Hamilton starts fading a little. If Bottas stays another 2 seasons, that could be possible as we can't be sure Hamilton will continue at this stand out level forever.
I think it may be as simple as people want to stop Hamilton from winning as many races, it's no coincidence that after every Hamilton win you're going to hear how boring the race was but the exact same race but with a different winner suddenly becomes a good race.
That's hardly surprising since it is the predictability of Hamilton winning that bores many (me included). Uncertainty of outcome is a strong driver for the entertainment factor of sports - not only within races but also between races.
A different winner doesn't necessarily mean that the race itself was still not boring if we are using the same metric of what might make a race exciting.
A different winner is in itself exciting occurrence.
It can be but soon loses it's appeal if it happens quite often, a race being boring or not depending on who wins starts to go down the route of pesonal bias rather than if the race was actually boring or not, I think there were a lot of things in play that stopped the race last time out from being boring but unfortunately for some most Hamilton wins get the boring tag.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

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