Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

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Siao7
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Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Siao7 »

According to an algorithm by AWS measuring in essence the driver's speed over one lap, full beans:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... iH1Cz.html

Loads of interesting ones here, but the most glaring one for me is Kovalainen at Nr8 and Prost at Nr20???

Can't say I agree really.

What do you think?

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Herb »

I trust this about as much as I trust their tyre displays.

JN23
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by JN23 »

It’s been a bad week for algorithms.

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by JN23 »

How bad was the 2010 Lotus if it was being driven by the 8th and 9th fastest drivers of all time? :]

Siao7
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:31 am
How bad was the 2010 Lotus if it was being driven by the 8th and 9th fastest drivers of all time? :]
:lol:

Lola level!

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

I have a hard time believing it when they say factors such as age are taken into consideration, and I think that's why Kovalainen has ended up ranked so high. His performance in quali in 2011 saw him beat his teammate by an average of nearly half a second. His teammate that year? Jarno Trulli. I can't shake the feeling that because Trulli himself is ranked in the top 10, Heikki being so far ahead of him that year has given his ranking a huge boost.

Also... if you look at the top 20, it becomes even more ridiculous. Lando Norris is in 15th place. That in itself is kind of hilarious when he's done all of like, 27 races and you've got guys on the list who have done upwards of 300. But anyway, for those 27 races, he has only had the one teammate, and he's outqualified said teammate both in terms of head to head and the average gap between the two. That teammate is Carlos Sainz, who is ranked... directly above Norris in 14th. It's laughable.
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

I'm surprised by how low Ricciardo is. In qualifying, he was faster than Vettel and Hulkenberg, and was pretty equal to Verstappen during their time as teammates. What's dragging him down?
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Badgeronimous »

I would say that list is............ flawed

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Harpo »

Fastest drivel of the past 40 years...
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Invade
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Invade »

It's an impossible exercise. There are so many modern day drivers in the list because the general gaps have closed up and not just because of any notion of an increasing standard of the field, so being close to the best of more recent times does wonders for your ranking, but this also marginalises the speed of the actual fastest of those same recent times. Whereas for Senna (and to some extent Schumacher), the dynamics of the era AND his amazing talent gives him a monster edge over his contemporaries, which helps him but hurts all of them and makes it look like his era was full of qualifying mugs. The model has not accounted for era specific nuances and it cannot other than by crude guesswork.


However, I think the fundamental order of the top 3 is probably correct when taken as an average. Hamilton was simply not as constant in beating his teammates in qualifying as those guys, and Alonso is also substantially better here. In fact, as a qualifier, though Hamilton is great at delivering that one pole lap, it might be an overrated part of his arsenal.

edit: And look at the generous rankings of Hamilton's teammates as a general rule.

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Rockie »

To understand the absurdity of this ranking in 2008 Kovalainen in the Mclaren had the same number of race wins as Vettel in the Toro Rosso.

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Exediron »

Firstly, we need to keep in mind that -- even at face value -- this is only ranking the fastest qualifiers of all time...

That said, while I can kind of buy about the top six and the relative gaps therein, it breaks down quickly outside that. I have to assume there are some uncontrolled variables and/or poor assumptions being made to lead to some of the results. Also, race fuel qualifying has clearly polluted the data for some years, which I suspect accounts for Trulli and Kovelainen being so high up.

Overall: interesting attempt, and closer than some I've seen, but I don't think so.
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Remmirath »

I expect some flawed data crept in here (and how could it not, considering the scope of the project?). The top six are at least plausible, and I think there's little doubt that Senna was the fastest qualifier, but the list looks progressively sketchier beyond that. Kovalainen and Trulli certainly stand out. And obviously a lot of fast drivers aren't even showing up, since the data used was only from 1983 on, but I think there's a good chance that the top 20 would all be from the last forty years anyhow.

All in all it's interesting, and it probably does have some merit with regards to qualifying speed, but it's by no means definitive and I have serious doubts that some of these factors (especially age, which doesn't effect everyone in the same way or at the same time) could be properly accounted for. I'm not sure it's substantially - if any - better than other efforts.
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Exediron »

Remmirath wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:45 pm
... and I have serious doubts that some of these factors (especially age, which doesn't effect everyone in the same way or at the same time) could be properly accounted for.
I'm assuming they threw that in there so they could say Schumacher was significantly faster than Rosberg and Hamilton, since otherwise the direct head-to-head contradicts that. But I also feel it can't have been accurately measured.
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Fiki »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:30 am
It’s been a bad week for algorithms.
:lol: Spot on!
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Zazu »

Just a gimmick by a sponsor.

They know garbage like this will just get people on the Internet arguing

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Mort Canard »

I would say that the top four are plausible.

The total absence of drivers on the list like Piquet, Mansell, Hakkinen, Coulthard, Berger, & D. Hill makes me wonder about the methodology. I don't know how you can rate Fisichella, Trulli, Kubica, & Kovalainen over the previous list of driving greats from the period.

The inclusion of Norris, Sainz Jr., & Hulkenberg,who have never won a race is also suspect.

How would you factor in race winners from the period like Massa, Irvine, Webber, Villeneuve, Montoya, R. Schumacher, Boutsen, Herbert, Patrese, & Frentzen.
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:19 pm
Firstly, we need to keep in mind that -- even at face value -- this is only ranking the fastest qualifiers of all time...

That said, while I can kind of buy about the top six and the relative gaps therein, it breaks down quickly outside that. I have to assume there are some uncontrolled variables and/or poor assumptions being made to lead to some of the results. Also, race fuel qualifying has clearly polluted the data for some years, which I suspect accounts for Trulli and Kovelainen being so high up.

Overall: interesting attempt, and closer than some I've seen, but I don't think so.
It is in the title though, "fastest" driver. The one lap quali is exactly that, full beans, one lap, no tyre/fuel conservation. So on that respect it is correct.

Trulli being high up is not surprise, he was a one-lap specialist, although did not follow in the races, hence the infamous Trulli-trains.

As terrible as it is, I have to say that it does get most things right, the top 3-4 drivers are the names you'd expect, also drivers like Trulli (one lap specialists) are included, which is correct. After that it all crumbles like a house of cards frankly

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by j man »

The top 5 are about in the right place and then the rest is garbage. Makes me think the top 5 was fixed in place first to give the results some credibility and then they let the algorithm spit the rest out.

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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by Fiki »

Qualifying hasn't always carried the importance it does now. I remember Prost sacrificing qualifying to work on race set-up. This may help to explain his lowly position in this result, just as it helps to see this whole exercise as flawed.

Having said that, I'm quite confident that Senna finishing ahead of Schumacher is correct. The result also makes me wonder whether the prime influence working against drivers such as Trulli and Kovalainen was car development or race engineering support. Especially the case of Toyota seems very interesting to me.

I recently re-read an article in which John Barnard placed Prost above Schumacher as "best" driver (as against fastest in this study). Apart from whether one agrees, that does perhaps point to F1 indeed being "better" in that era than now, even if we figure in that it was in Schumacher's era that pitwall control took over the sport.
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:38 am
Qualifying hasn't always carried the importance it does now. I remember Prost sacrificing qualifying to work on race set-up. This may help to explain his lowly position in this result, just as it helps to see this whole exercise as flawed.

Having said that, I'm quite confident that Senna finishing ahead of Schumacher is correct. The result also makes me wonder whether the prime influence working against drivers such as Trulli and Kovalainen was car development or race engineering support. Especially the case of Toyota seems very interesting to me.

I recently re-read an article in which John Barnard placed Prost above Schumacher as "best" driver (as against fastest in this study). Apart from whether one agrees, that does perhaps point to F1 indeed being "better" in that era than now, even if we figure in that it was in Schumacher's era that pitwall control took over the sport.
Unlike Senna, Prost concentrated on race pace but Senna still was able to beat him, you have to see both sides of this kind of reasoning.

I know it was said that Prost gave up on trying to beat Senna in qualifying but he couldn't beat him come race day either.
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of the past 40 years

Post by SteveW »

Mort Canard wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:42 pm
I would say that the top four are plausible.

The total absence of drivers on the list like Piquet, Mansell, Hakkinen, Coulthard, Berger, & D. Hill makes me wonder about the methodology. I don't know how you can rate Fisichella, Trulli, Kubica, & Kovalainen over the previous list of driving greats from the period.

The inclusion of Norris, Sainz Jr., & Hulkenberg,who have never won a race is also suspect.

How would you factor in race winners from the period like Massa, Irvine, Webber, Villeneuve, Montoya, R. Schumacher, Boutsen, Herbert, Patrese, & Frentzen.
^^This^^

I don't need to type out a reply because that's pretty much exactly what I'd have written!

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