planetf1.com

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:37 pm**

[quote="pokerman
Given that then I have to ask how you stop a driver from doing it if there is no penalty?
[/quote]

Not so much "no penalty" - there is no doubt that Leclerc drove without an operative safety harness, which is required by the regulations.

It is more a question of why neither the stewards, nor the FIA, will impose a penalty for breaking the regulations.

.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:50 pm**

If a Sunday driver gets penalty points for not wearing a seatbelt, then an F1 driver with a superlicence, racing with cars at an excess of 150mph at least deserves penalty points on their licence. A fine is very marginal imo, and I don't doubt they are throwing a blind eye because Leclerc and Todt get on well.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:02 pm**

tootsie323 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:21 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:08 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:58 am

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:48 am

tootsie323 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:37 am
I would expect some form of statement and sanction to come out in due course. As stated, there is no specific precedence for this. What does surprise me is that we have not yet heard anything from the relevant authority along the lines of we are looking into this etc etc...
I'm very interested to see what the driver's representative, Grosjean, has to say on the matter, the guy who thought it was dangerous for Hamilton to undo his seat belts so he could wave to the crowd after a win.
Watch the video again, he was asking for clarification, not having a go at Hamilton
Out of interest then what was the clarification.
Wasn't Grosjean simply asking whether it was OK to undo belts after the race (on the cool-down lap)? After some (rather ambiguous, in my view) discussion, Charlie Whiting implied that such a practice shouldn't continue.

Indeed, asked if it ok to do it as we saw Hamilton doing it repeatedly. So he wanted to know if they are allowed or not, so that the rest can do it too, as it would be great for the fans to see the drivers wave at them etc.

The GPDA chairman is Wurz, Vettel and Grosjean are directors, I am not sure who should be doing the talking to the drivers. Maybe they'll sort it out between them in their next session, maybe it will be addressed in the next GP meeting like the video with Whiting.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:36 pm**

tootsie323 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:30 pm
With all this to-ing and fro-ing about so-called facts and who is claiming what, can't we just keep it simple?
Leclerc drove around the circuit, under race conditions, with his safety harness undone. This should be indisputable.
Whether he know it was undone at the time he pulled off (having re-started the engine) is not so clear. In the heat of the moment, it is possible to argue that he may not have noticed until he was up and running.
Having said that, isn't it largely academic? Ignorance is not a defence against a safety-related issue. I do not recall any driver using an I-did-not-see-those-yellow-flags argument against any related sanction.

“I tried to start the engine after the issue and it was not starting,” he said. “So I took off the seat belt getting ready to get out. But then they asked me to try one last time and actually the last time it actually worked again. So then I had no seat belts so I had to stop.”

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:50 pm**

From what I can gather there is no actual penalty for not wearing a seatbelt, I guess the powers that be just think who would be stupid enough to do that?

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:09 pm**

.

However the regulations say that there must be a driver's harness in accordance with required spec.

IF we have to nit-pick, Leclerc's harness was not in accordance with the regs as it didn't have a working attachment/"attach". It seems that Ferrari couldn't find it in the cockpit, so PRESUMABLY it was ejected from the car when Leclerc undid his harness.

.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm**

I actually suspect it's not possible to drive a F1 car at full speed without the support of the seat belts and maybe It's one reason why Leclerc thought it wiser to pit after attempting one lap at speed.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:57 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm
I actually suspect it's not possible to drive a F1 car at full speed without the support of the seat belts and maybe It's one reason why Leclerc thought it wiser to pit after attempting one lap at speed.

A discussion on facebook showed a screen shot that he set a green sector on his 2nd lap.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 pm**

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:57 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm
I actually suspect it's not possible to drive a F1 car at full speed without the support of the seat belts and maybe It's one reason why Leclerc thought it wiser to pit after attempting one lap at speed.
A discussion on facebook showed a screen shot that he set a green sector on his 2nd lap.

He was gripping the steering for deal life to support his body through the corners, I'm not sure how long he'd be able to keep that up?

The team had to ask him to close the radio, I believe that's so they could talk to him, it was said that he was gripping the steering wheel in such a way that he was constantly pressing the radio button.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:15 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:57 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm
I actually suspect it's not possible to drive a F1 car at full speed without the support of the seat belts and maybe It's one reason why Leclerc thought it wiser to pit after attempting one lap at speed.
A discussion on facebook showed a screen shot that he set a green sector on his 2nd lap.
He was gripping the steering for deal life to support his body through the corners, I'm not sure how long he'd be able to keep that up?

The team had to ask him to close the radio, I believe that's so they could talk to him, it was said that he was gripping the steering wheel in such a way that he was constantly pressing the radio button.

Who said this? Any links?

Badgeronimous, could you kindly point to the discussion on FB please? If we are allowed to share links like this

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:05 pm**

On the subject of removing seat belts, this reminds me of Mark Webber removing his crash helmet at the end of his final race. Even though any sporting punishment would have been meaningless, I still think some "token" punishment should have been given out at least to set a precedent given the seriousness of the safety violation.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:26 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:57 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm
I actually suspect it's not possible to drive a F1 car at full speed without the support of the seat belts and maybe It's one reason why Leclerc thought it wiser to pit after attempting one lap at speed.
A discussion on facebook showed a screen shot that he set a green sector on his 2nd lap.
He was gripping the steering for deal life to support his body through the corners, I'm not sure how long he'd be able to keep that up?

The team had to ask him to close the radio, I believe that's so they could talk to him, it was said that he was gripping the steering wheel in such a way that he was constantly pressing the radio button.

His time loss relative to Latifi ahead was barely 15 seconds from not moving to coming in the pits. He must have gone at some serious speed. He got going about 5 seconds after Latifi went by so basically, he did those 2 laps about 10 seconds slower than a car that was flat out. That was simply unbelievable...

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:33 pm**

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:26 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:57 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm
I actually suspect it's not possible to drive a F1 car at full speed without the support of the seat belts and maybe It's one reason why Leclerc thought it wiser to pit after attempting one lap at speed.
A discussion on facebook showed a screen shot that he set a green sector on his 2nd lap.
He was gripping the steering for deal life to support his body through the corners, I'm not sure how long he'd be able to keep that up?

The team had to ask him to close the radio, I believe that's so they could talk to him, it was said that he was gripping the steering wheel in such a way that he was constantly pressing the radio button.
His time loss relative to Latifi ahead was barely 15 seconds from not moving to coming in the pits. He must have gone at some serious speed. He got going about 5 seconds after Latifi went by so basically, he did those 2 laps about 10 seconds slower than a car that was flat out. That was simply unbelievable...

But still much slower than his normal race speed.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:41 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:33 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:26 pm
His time loss relative to Latifi ahead was barely 15 seconds from not moving to coming in the pits. He must have gone at some serious speed. He got going about 5 seconds after Latifi went by so basically, he did those 2 laps about 10 seconds slower than a car that was flat out. That was simply unbelievable...
But still much slower than his normal race speed.

Indeed. Very unsafe, but also clearly too slow to be competitive.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:07 pm**

[quote="pokerman
But still much slower than his normal race speed.
[/quote]

.

"Much slower" !

the absolute fastest lap was 1 min 18.183 seconds. Vettel's fastest lap was 1 min 22.707 seconds.

so, taking Vettel's as most representative (?) his fastest time was 82.707 seconds, so 10 seconds slower is 12% slower - hardly "much slower".

.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:32 pm**

Greenman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:07 pm
"Much slower" !

the absolute fastest lap was 1 min 18.183 seconds. Vettel's fastest lap was 1 min 22.707 seconds.

so, taking Vettel's as most representative (?) his fastest time was 82.707 seconds, so 10 seconds slower is 12% slower - hardly "much slower".

.

That's an enormous amount slower. That's more than the difference between qualifying and race pace; it's more than the 107% rule, by which we know a car driving that much slower wouldn't even be allowed to start the race for fear of being a hazard to others.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:36 am**

I'm not sure that the relative speed is the issue here, unless you're discussing it in terms of ability to drive the car with no harness. The simple issue is that a car was driven on a live race circuit by a driver who had no harness attached.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:07 pm**

Greenman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:07 pm

.

"Much slower" !

the absolute fastest lap was 1 min 18.183 seconds. Vettel's fastest lap was 1 min 22.707 seconds.

so, taking Vettel's as most representative (?) his fastest time was 82.707 seconds, so 10 seconds slower is 12% slower - hardly "much slower".

.

First thing I want to ask, how do you always manage to mess up the quotes?

No the point I was trying to make is that it's perhaps unpracticle to be able to race at full speed with your belts undone, you then have to use the steering wheel to try and support your body weight otherwise you get thrown about like a rag doll.

Maybe the FIA already know this and that's why they don't stipulate any kind of penalty and Leclerc himself soon realised it when he attempted a racing lap and then pitted the following lap.

I understand your view point regarding the danger involved and to that extent I'm surprised the FIA have given the incident a total pass and are not looking to address the issue.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:47 pm**

.

Why should a driver's slight discomfort affect the FIA actually imposing a large penalty for an extremely serious safety violation ?

.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:22 pm**

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:47 pm
.

Why should a driver's slight discomfort affect the FIA actually imposing a large penalty for an extremely serious safety violation ?

.

It doesn't sound like it's in their remit to be able to do so and I was merely trying to explain why that might be the case.

If you like it's like a loophole that needs closing up.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:29 pm**

Siao7 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:15 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:57 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm
I actually suspect it's not possible to drive a F1 car at full speed without the support of the seat belts and maybe It's one reason why Leclerc thought it wiser to pit after attempting one lap at speed.
A discussion on facebook showed a screen shot that he set a green sector on his 2nd lap.
He was gripping the steering for deal life to support his body through the corners, I'm not sure how long he'd be able to keep that up?

The team had to ask him to close the radio, I believe that's so they could talk to him, it was said that he was gripping the steering wheel in such a way that he was constantly pressing the radio button.
Who said this? Any links?

Badgeronimous, could you kindly point to the discussion on FB please? If we are allowed to share links like this

I've not been able to find it, I read that many things that I often forget the source.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:20 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:22 pm

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:47 pm
.

Why should a driver's slight discomfort affect the FIA actually imposing a large penalty for an extremely serious safety violation ?

.
It doesn't sound like it's in their remit to be able to do so and I was merely trying to explain why that might be the case.

If you like it's like a loophole that needs closing up.

.

With all due respect - nonsense.

There has to be a safety harness, Leclerc drove without one, that is is a volition of the regs.

The FIA are ignoring their own regulations.

.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:43 pm**

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:20 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:22 pm

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:47 pm
.

Why should a driver's slight discomfort affect the FIA actually imposing a large penalty for an extremely serious safety violation ?

.
It doesn't sound like it's in their remit to be able to do so and I was merely trying to explain why that might be the case.

If you like it's like a loophole that needs closing up.
.

With all due respect - nonsense.

There has to be a safety harness, Leclerc drove without one, that is is a volition of the regs.

The FIA are ignoring their own regulations.

.

Which regulation?

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:59 pm**

.

As you cannot use common sense, or google ;

F1 2020 technical regulations ;

14.4 Safety belts
It is mandatory to wear two shoulder straps, one abdominal strap and two straps between the legs. These straps must be securely fixed to the car and must comply with FIA standard 8853-2016.

.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:12 pm**

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:59 pm
.

As you cannot use common sense, or google ;

F1 2020 technical regulations ;

14.4 Safety belts
It is mandatory to wear two shoulder straps, one abdominal strap and two straps between the legs. These straps must be securely fixed to the car and must comply with FIA standard 8853-2016.

.

If I was a lawyer I'd say there is nothing in that clause that stipulates they have to be tight or even done up at all.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:27 pm**

.

Then it's a good thing that you're not a lawyer.

.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:58 pm**

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:12 pm

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:59 pm
F1 2020 technical regulations ;

14.4 Safety belts
It is mandatory to wear two shoulder straps, one abdominal strap and two straps between the legs. These straps must be securely fixed to the car and must comply with FIA standard 8853-2016.
If I was a lawyer I'd say there is nothing in that clause that stipulates they have to be tight or even done up at all.

You wouldn't be likely to find a rule requiring the driver to properly tighten their safety belts in the technical regulations. The technical regulations are for engineers, and that one spells out the system the car needs to be fitted with. If there's a penalty for not wearing them properly, that would be a sporting regulation, not a technical regulation.

---

Okay, I've done some digging, and I'm happy to say that I have finally located it! It's not in the FIA Formula 1 regulations at all - it's actually in the FIA International Sporting Code, Appendix L (link):

1.3 Conditions of use

- the driver is to be seated in his car, with helmet and FIA-approved head restraint in place and attached and safety harness buckled.

You could make an argument that having the harness merely loose is not against the regulation, but if it was wholly undone that is indeed a clear-cut violation.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:14 pm**

Thanks exediron, I'd checked the sporting regs but couldn't find anything.

I'd imagine it just wasn't reported to the stewards. I suspect breaking a technical regulation would only result in exclusion from the Spanish GP though, so not much point.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:32 pm**

.

BUT it is not just breaking the technical regs.

.

Posted: **Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:39 pm**

Exediron wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:58 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:12 pm

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:59 pm
F1 2020 technical regulations ;

14.4 Safety belts
It is mandatory to wear two shoulder straps, one abdominal strap and two straps between the legs. These straps must be securely fixed to the car and must comply with FIA standard 8853-2016.
If I was a lawyer I'd say there is nothing in that clause that stipulates they have to be tight or even done up at all.
You wouldn't be likely to find a rule requiring the driver to properly tighten their safety belts in the technical regulations. The technical regulations are for engineers, and that one spells out the system the car needs to be fitted with. If there's a penalty for not wearing them properly, that would be a sporting regulation, not a technical regulation.

---

Okay, I've done some digging, and I'm happy to say that I have finally located it! It's not in the FIA Formula 1 regulations at all - it's actually in the FIA International Sporting Code, Appendix L (link):

1.3 Conditions of use

- the driver is to be seated in his car, with helmet and FIA-approved head restraint in place and attached and safety harness buckled.

You could make an argument that having the harness merely loose is not against the regulation, but if it was wholly undone that is indeed a clear-cut violation.

Good find

Posted: **Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:12 pm**

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:20 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:22 pm

Greenman wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:47 pm
.

Why should a driver's slight discomfort affect the FIA actually imposing a large penalty for an extremely serious safety violation ?

.
It doesn't sound like it's in their remit to be able to do so and I was merely trying to explain why that might be the case.

If you like it's like a loophole that needs closing up.
.

With all due respect - nonsense.

There has to be a safety harness, Leclerc drove without one, that is is a volition of the regs.

The FIA are ignoring their own regulations.

.

It's happened in the past, Senna loosened his belts without penalty, unless something's changed?

Posted: **Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:27 pm**

Herb wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:14 pm
Thanks exediron, I'd checked the sporting regs but couldn't find anything.

I'd imagine it just wasn't reported to the stewards. I suspect breaking a technical regulation would only result in exclusion from the Spanish GP though, so not much point.

The stewards can take the initiative themselves, not just act upon issues reported. I'm not sure whether this is a recent change - I would assume not, but can't say.

I find Exediron's post interesting, but wonder whether the rules cover a special situation such as Leclerc experienced.

I wish I could remember another case of a driver needing to pit to get his seat belts tightened, but I can't. I'm sure it happened, though. Does anyone else remember? Edit: I see Pokerman remembered Senna, but that's not what I seem to remember.

Posted: **Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:55 pm**

Fiki wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:27 pm

Herb wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:14 pm
Thanks exediron, I'd checked the sporting regs but couldn't find anything.

I'd imagine it just wasn't reported to the stewards. I suspect breaking a technical regulation would only result in exclusion from the Spanish GP though, so not much point.
The stewards can take the initiative themselves, not just act upon issues reported. I'm not sure whether this is a recent change - I would assume not, but can't say.

I find Exediron's post interesting, but wonder whether the rules cover a special situation such as Leclerc experienced.

I wish I could remember another case of a driver needing to pit to get his seat belts tightened, but I can't. I'm sure it happened, though. Does anyone else remember? Edit: I see Pokerman remembered Senna, but that's not what I seem to remember.

I checked this recently, I think this is since 2017 or so. They had the authority to check incidents even before that, but it got re-worded in 2017 I believe.

I would want a bit more info about the Senna incident, when, where, etc. By the sound of it it was just loosened, not undone completely, so maybe not directly comparable

Posted: **Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:30 pm**

[quote="pokerman
It's happened in the past, Senna loosened his belts without penalty, unless something's changed?
[/quote]

First, "loosened" (under what circumstances) rather than driving without a working harness as required.

Second, Since then the FIA have had a huge push on driving safely !

.

Posted: **Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:34 pm**

[quote="Fiki
I wish I could remember another case of a driver needing to pit to get his seat belts tightened, but I can't. I'm sure it happened, though. ..............
[/quote]

Hardly "tightened" - they were completely undone. So not a working harness.

.

Posted: **Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:44 pm**

Fiki wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:27 pm

Herb wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:14 pm
Thanks exediron, I'd checked the sporting regs but couldn't find anything.

I'd imagine it just wasn't reported to the stewards. I suspect breaking a technical regulation would only result in exclusion from the Spanish GP though, so not much point.
The stewards can take the initiative themselves, not just act upon issues reported. I'm not sure whether this is a recent change - I would assume not, but can't say.

I find Exediron's post interesting, but wonder whether the rules cover a special situation such as Leclerc experienced.

I wish I could remember another case of a driver needing to pit to get his seat belts tightened, but I can't. I'm sure it happened, though. Does anyone else remember? Edit: I see Pokerman remembered Senna, but that's not what I seem to remember.

BIB Irvine Monaco 1996? Bottas Brazil 2014?

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:49 pm**

Azi wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:44 pm

Fiki wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:27 pm

Herb wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:14 pm
Thanks exediron, I'd checked the sporting regs but couldn't find anything.

I'd imagine it just wasn't reported to the stewards. I suspect breaking a technical regulation would only result in exclusion from the Spanish GP though, so not much point.
The stewards can take the initiative themselves, not just act upon issues reported. I'm not sure whether this is a recent change - I would assume not, but can't say.

I find Exediron's post interesting, but wonder whether the rules cover a special situation such as Leclerc experienced.

I wish I could remember another case of a driver needing to pit to get his seat belts tightened, but I can't. I'm sure it happened, though. Does anyone else remember? Edit: I see Pokerman remembered Senna, but that's not what I seem to remember.
BIB Irvine Monaco 1996? Bottas Brazil 2014?

Thanks for finding those Azi. I think it was the Bottas case that I remembered vaguely.

I think that in the absence of a rule specifying how soon a driver has to come in, in case of a problem with the safety harness, and in view of the fact that earlier cases don't seem to have been penalized, it may be the stewards didn't wish to apply a penalty in this instance. Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, the fact the car was withdrawn with technical issues, may have convinced them it wasn't necessary.

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:31 pm**

Apart from the fact that driving without a working harness is breaking the regs (and hence is due a penalty) Leclerc started a completely new lap without coming in - which merely shows his contempt for the FIA's safety regs.

No way around the fact that he (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) deserve a major punishment.

.

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:29 pm**

Greenman wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:31 pm
Apart from the fact that driving without a working harness is breaking the regs (and hence is due a penalty) Leclerc started a completely new lap without coming in - which merely shows his contempt for the FIA's safety regs.

No way around the fact that he (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) deserve a major punishment.

.

Again, this is your opinion not a fact.

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:25 pm**

.

Again totally incorrect - see above.

Why do you insist on coming here and lying ?

.

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