Page 5 of 9
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 pm
by Exediron
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
I'll give you a hand. You obviously are struggling with the concept of "facts"
Here is your post with opinions underlined for you.
He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !
To be honest, I think you're reaching here. As someone who's worn a safety harness, it's inconceivable to me that he would not have been aware it was undone. And quite frankly, he knew the harness was undone because he had undone it himself.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:21 pm
by PRFAN
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
I'll give you a hand. You obviously are struggling with the concept of "facts"
Here is your post with opinions underlined for you.
He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !
To be honest, I think you're reaching here. As someone who's worn a safety harness, it's inconceivable to me that he would not have been aware it was undone. And quite frankly, he knew the harness was undone because he had undone it himself.
I think your assessment is correct and Mikeyg123 is completely wrong. I think Mikeyg123 is failing to realize the lack of liberty of movement you have once you are secured in your belts, you can not move anything but your arms, can not roll your shoulders, head movement is limited, you are pressed in so hard that is it uncomfortable at first until you get used to the pressure. Drivers that detach the steering wheel and place it near them, find out that once strapped in somebody has to hand them the wheel that they thought was at arms reach.
The moment he unbuckled himself HE KNEW, the moment he started rolling HE KNEW, that is why when he drove past the pit entry he goes " na na na na" on the radio, he knew, he did not got distracted, he did not forget.....he knew. He was going slow because he was "submarining" for lack of a better term, every time he touched the brakes.
It is an absolute breach of safety rules and a stiff penalty should be brought down. No point in DQ, as he retired. He should lose points on his licence and even a one race ban, to me this is that serious.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:23 pm
by mikeyg123
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
I'll give you a hand. You obviously are struggling with the concept of "facts"
Here is your post with opinions underlined for you.
He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !
To be honest, I think you're reaching here. As someone who's worn a safety harness, it's inconceivable to me that he would not have been aware it was undone. And quite frankly, he knew the harness was undone because he had undone it himself.
Oh I'm sure he was aware it was undone when he undid it but then he was immediately distracted by something else and didn't think about it again until he said it over the radio. What's the alternative... He seriously thought for a time he could just continue the race without his seat belt done up? This feels unlikely.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:25 pm
by mikeyg123
PRFAN wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:21 pm
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
I'll give you a hand. You obviously are struggling with the concept of "facts"
Here is your post with opinions underlined for you.
He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !
To be honest, I think you're reaching here. As someone who's worn a safety harness, it's inconceivable to me that he would not have been aware it was undone. And quite frankly, he knew the harness was undone because he had undone it himself.
I think your assessment is correct and Mikeyg123 is completely wrong. I think Mikeyg123 is failing to realize the lack of liberty of movement you have once you are secured in your belts, you can not move anything but your arms, can not roll your shoulders, head movement is limited, you are pressed in so hard that is it uncomfortable at first until you get used to the pressure. Drivers that detach the steering wheel and place it near them, find out that once strapped in somebody has to hand them the wheel that they thought was at arms reach.
The moment he unbuckled himself HE KNEW, the moment he started rolling HE KNEW, that is why when he drove past the pit entry he goes " na na na na" on the radio, he knew, he did not got distracted, he did not forget.....he knew. He was going slow because he was "submarining" for lack of a better term, every time he touched the brakes.
It is an absolute breach of safety rules and a stiff penalty should be brought down. No point in DQ, as he retired. He should lose points on his licence and even a one race ban, to me this is that serious.
So why do you suppose he did not come in then if he was aware all along his seat belts were undone?
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:26 pm
by mikeyg123
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
Lets see what happens but I'd be surprised if he gets anything north of a fine and some penalty points. I'll be stunned if it's more than a grid penalty.
I wouldn't be. This is a safety issue and I would expect the sanction to be suitably harsh.
Was he even summoned to the stewards? Have we heard anything about it since?
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:32 pm
by PRFAN
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:25 pm
PRFAN wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:21 pm
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
I'll give you a hand. You obviously are struggling with the concept of "facts"
Here is your post with opinions underlined for you.
He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !
To be honest, I think you're reaching here. As someone who's worn a safety harness, it's inconceivable to me that he would not have been aware it was undone. And quite frankly, he knew the harness was undone because he had undone it himself.
I think your assessment is correct and Mikeyg123 is completely wrong. I think Mikeyg123 is failing to realize the lack of liberty of movement you have once you are secured in your belts, you can not move anything but your arms, can not roll your shoulders, head movement is limited, you are pressed in so hard that is it uncomfortable at first until you get used to the pressure. Drivers that detach the steering wheel and place it near them, find out that once strapped in somebody has to hand them the wheel that they thought was at arms reach.
The moment he unbuckled himself HE KNEW, the moment he started rolling HE KNEW, that is why when he drove past the pit entry he goes " na na na na" on the radio, he knew, he did not got distracted, he did not forget.....he knew. He was going slow because he was "submarining" for lack of a better term, every time he touched the brakes.
It is an absolute breach of safety rules and a stiff penalty should be brought down. No point in DQ, as he retired. He should lose points on his licence and even a one race ban, to me this is that serious.
So why do you suppose he did not come in then if he was aware all along his seat belts were undone?
He did!!
Two laps later while he figured out the risk/reward issue.
When the car took off and he felt the clutch chatter.......he got reminded if by any chance he forgot!
He tried to drive unbelted, two laps later got some sense and pitted. That simple.
He was just speaking in "code" to his team, he knew he might get in trouble. Did not wanted the stewards to know.
It boggles the mind why nothing has been said yet from the stewards
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
by Exediron
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:25 pm
So why do you suppose he did not come in then if he was aware all along his seat belts were undone?
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:39 am
by Badger36
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:25 pm
So why do you suppose he did not come in then if he was aware all along his seat belts were undone?
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
You can't really do that with a race harness.
Once buckled in, you cannot really loosen the harness - only tighten. Once you've uncliped it.... it is very difficult to put back on without resetting it. It is difficult to reset a 6 point harness (unassisted) from the driving position in a tin top, never mind a single seater.
From my experience, he was driving with an uncliped rather than loose harness. I don't think it is possible for him to get the harness on himself once uncliped in the time frame he had, and with the motions that he showed.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:51 am
by Exediron
Badgeronimous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:39 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
You can't really do that with a race harness.
Once buckled in, you cannot really loosen the harness - only tighten. Once you've uncliped it.... it is very difficult to put back on without resetting it. It is difficult to reset a 6 point harness (unassisted) from the driving position in a tin top, never mind a single seater.
From my experience, he was driving with an uncliped rather than loose harness. I don't think it is possible for him to get the harness on himself once uncliped in the time frame he had, and with the motions that he showed.
Yeah, you're probably right, and it seemed like a stretch to me when I typed it. I just can't imagine why he would have driven even one lap at racing speed with a totally unsecured harness; there would be no chance of surviving any collision if he had made a mistake.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:01 am
by Invade
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:51 am
Badgeronimous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:39 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
You can't really do that with a race harness.
Once buckled in, you cannot really loosen the harness - only tighten. Once you've uncliped it.... it is very difficult to put back on without resetting it. It is difficult to reset a 6 point harness (unassisted) from the driving position in a tin top, never mind a single seater.
From my experience, he was driving with an uncliped rather than loose harness. I don't think it is possible for him to get the harness on himself once uncliped in the time frame he had, and with the motions that he showed.
Yeah, you're probably right, and it seemed like a stretch to me when I typed it. I just can't imagine why he would have driven even one lap at racing speed with a totally unsecured harness; there would be no chance of surviving any collision if he had made a mistake.
I don't like saying this, and I am still a Leclerc fan, but he's now showed several instances of having poor judgment and carelessness when it comes to driver safety. In my view, he has a cavalier attitude and either lacks some awareness or is legitimately a bit dangerous. My mind goes back to Monaco 2019, but particularly Japan 2019. Also, some of his moves are right on the limit and in situations where if he went over the limit he could be seriously endangering drivers. And now we have this incident, which I feel is significant.
I don't want to be too harsh but I feel he needs to be more aware or made to calm down a little bit, before some damage is actually done. I hardly see Leclerc like a Grosjean but there is something a bit reckless and cavalier about him which gives me quite serious cause to pause — and this is hard to explain, but it feels more dangerous than, for example, the sort of liberties Verstappen was taking earlier in his career. It has a different tenor to it and I'm not comfortable with it.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:19 am
by tootsie323
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:26 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
Lets see what happens but I'd be surprised if he gets anything north of a fine and some penalty points. I'll be stunned if it's more than a grid penalty.
I wouldn't be. This is a safety issue and I would expect the sanction to be suitably harsh.
Was he even summoned to the stewards? Have we heard anything about it since?
No. It's that, actually, that I find surprising.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:22 am
by Exediron
Invade wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:01 am
I don't like saying this, and I am still a Leclerc fan, but he's now showed several instances of having poor judgment and carelessness when it comes to driver safety. In my view, he has a cavalier attitude and either lacks some awareness or is legitimately a bit dangerous. My mind goes back to Monaco 2019, but particularly Japan 2019. Also, some of his moves are right on the limit and in situations where if he went over the limit he could be seriously endangering drivers. And now we have this incident, which I feel is significant.
I don't want to be too harsh but I feel he needs to be more aware or made to calm down a little bit, before some damage is actually done. I hardly see Leclerc like a Grosjean but there is something a bit reckless and cavalier about him which gives me quite serious cause to pause — and this is hard to explain, but it feels more dangerous than, for example, the sort of liberties Verstappen was taking earlier in his career. It has a different tenor to it and I'm not comfortable with it.
I know what you mean, particularly with the Monaco 2019 reference. With Verstappen I always got the impression that he didn't fully understand why everyone thought what he was doing was so dangerous, and once he got enough experience to understand he stopped.
With Leclerc, it's more that he doesn't put any priority on his personal safety. A famous quote by Alain Prost comes to mind: "Ayrton has a small problem, he thinks he can’t kill himself..."
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:43 am
by Siao7
Badgeronimous wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:23 pm
The FIA issued event licence will almost certainly have a minimum required safety standard for all vehicle competing in that class.
I know that mate, it is just that the "conditions", as per the Appendix L of the FIA (I checked it yesterday!) mention nothing as such. Just bulletpoints of conditions to be met. One of them is that the driver needs to know the rules of the sport (sporting/technical rules), but that's about it.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:54 am
by Siao7
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:51 am
Badgeronimous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:39 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
You can't really do that with a race harness.
Once buckled in, you cannot really loosen the harness - only tighten. Once you've uncliped it.... it is very difficult to put back on without resetting it. It is difficult to reset a 6 point harness (unassisted) from the driving position in a tin top, never mind a single seater.
From my experience, he was driving with an uncliped rather than loose harness. I don't think it is possible for him to get the harness on himself once uncliped in the time frame he had, and with the motions that he showed.
Yeah, you're probably right, and it seemed like a stretch to me when I typed it. I just can't imagine why he would have driven even one lap at racing speed with a totally unsecured harness; there would be no chance of surviving any collision if he had made a mistake.
Didn't he say that a piece (the attach) flew or something? So if he is missing a piece of the harness, it would have been impossible to do it himself anyway. The fact that he kind of jokes about people not being happy with him driving without it is what makes it even worse.
I imagine Whiting would be looking for the heaviest book around to throw at him right now...
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:02 am
by Greenman
.
How long before the issue moves on from the Stewards to the FIA ? At some stage the FIA, at least, must stand up for the regulations and safe driving. The evidence is there in the transcript of the radio messages.
Or, are they trying to revive the other meaning of FIA ?
.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:24 am
by TheGiantHogweed
Siao7 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:54 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:51 am
Badgeronimous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:39 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
You can't really do that with a race harness.
Once buckled in, you cannot really loosen the harness - only tighten. Once you've uncliped it.... it is very difficult to put back on without resetting it. It is difficult to reset a 6 point harness (unassisted) from the driving position in a tin top, never mind a single seater.
From my experience, he was driving with an uncliped rather than loose harness. I don't think it is possible for him to get the harness on himself once uncliped in the time frame he had, and with the motions that he showed.
Yeah, you're probably right, and it seemed like a stretch to me when I typed it. I just can't imagine why he would have driven even one lap at racing speed with a totally unsecured harness; there would be no chance of surviving any collision if he had made a mistake.
Didn't he say that a piece (the attach) flew or something? So if he is missing a piece of the harness, it would have been impossible to do it himself anyway. The fact that he kind of jokes about people not being happy with him driving without it is what makes it even worse.
I imagine Whiting would be looking for the heaviest book around to throw at him right now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPr5khO86Eg
They had a discussion about this some time ago. Whiting made it clear that even on the lap after the flag, drivers must not take their seat belt off. Massa confirmed that it is incredibly hard or not possibly to simply slacken them. This to me just makes what Leclerc did during the race even worse.
His words on the radio were baffling though.
"My seat belts are off now. So when I break, I'm moving quite a bit. I mean I don't mind but I'm pretty sure nobody will be happy with me driving without seat belts so..."
So why did he do 2 laps with them off....? Even the times he did these laps in was shockingly fast given what he said on the radio. Over these two laps, he only lost around 10 seconds to Latifi. He was 17 seconds behind when he entered the pits and around 5 seconds behind when he got going from a stand still. So despite that, he still will have been going not that far from flat out. I don't think he understands the danger here.
And the fact he said "I mean I don't mind" shows that he actually didn't feel the needed to pull over regarding his own safety - but rather the rules. but then the question comes again why he didn't get out the car or pull off track as soon as he'd undone it.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:39 am
by Siao7
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:24 am
Siao7 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:54 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:51 am
Badgeronimous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:39 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
You can't really do that with a race harness.
Once buckled in, you cannot really loosen the harness - only tighten. Once you've uncliped it.... it is very difficult to put back on without resetting it. It is difficult to reset a 6 point harness (unassisted) from the driving position in a tin top, never mind a single seater.
From my experience, he was driving with an uncliped rather than loose harness. I don't think it is possible for him to get the harness on himself once uncliped in the time frame he had, and with the motions that he showed.
Yeah, you're probably right, and it seemed like a stretch to me when I typed it. I just can't imagine why he would have driven even one lap at racing speed with a totally unsecured harness; there would be no chance of surviving any collision if he had made a mistake.
Didn't he say that a piece (the attach) flew or something? So if he is missing a piece of the harness, it would have been impossible to do it himself anyway. The fact that he kind of jokes about people not being happy with him driving without it is what makes it even worse.
I imagine Whiting would be looking for the heaviest book around to throw at him right now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPr5khO86Eg
They had a discussion about this some time ago. Whiting made it clear that even on the lap after the flag, drivers must not take their seat belt off. Massa confirmed that it is incredibly hard or not possibly to simply slacken them. This to me just makes what Leclerc did during the race even worse.
His words on the radio were baffling though.
"My seat belts are off now. So when I break, I'm moving quite a bit. I mean I don't mind but I'm pretty sure nobody will be happy with me driving without seat belts so..."
So why did he do 2 laps with them off....? Even the times he did these laps in was shockingly fast given what he said on the radio. Over these two laps, he only lost around 10 seconds to Latifi. He was 17 seconds behind when he entered the pits and around 5 seconds behind when he got going from a stand still. So despite that, he still will have been going not that far from flat out. I don't think he understands the danger here.
And the fact he said "I mean I don't mind" shows that he actually didn't feel the needed to pull over regarding his own safety - but rather the rules. but then the question comes again why he didn't get out the car or pull off track as soon as he'd undone it.
Thanks, I had forgotten about this video. The circumstances are different (after the race finish), but Whiting does clarify that they shouldn't undo them at all.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:21 am
by Herb
Greenman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:02 am
.
How long before the issue moves on from the Stewards to the FIA ? At some stage the FIA, at least, must stand up for the regulations and safe driving. The evidence is there in the transcript of the radio messages.
Or, are they trying to revive the other meaning of FIA ?
.
It's not even been to the Stewards. The FIA publish the Stewards Decisions here:
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation
There is no mention of it.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:05 am
by BMWSauber84
Herb wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:21 am
Greenman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:02 am
.
How long before the issue moves on from the Stewards to the FIA ? At some stage the FIA, at least, must stand up for the regulations and safe driving. The evidence is there in the transcript of the radio messages.
Or, are they trying to revive the other meaning of FIA ?
.
It's not even been to the Stewards. The FIA publish the Stewards Decisions here:
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation
There is no mention of it.
I'm absolutely astonished by this. A reprimand should be the bare minimum here.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:21 am
by Siao7
BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:05 am
Herb wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:21 am
Greenman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:02 am
.
How long before the issue moves on from the Stewards to the FIA ? At some stage the FIA, at least, must stand up for the regulations and safe driving. The evidence is there in the transcript of the radio messages.
Or, are they trying to revive the other meaning of FIA ?
.
It's not even been to the Stewards. The FIA publish the Stewards Decisions here:
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation
There is no mention of it.
I'm absolutely astonished by this. A reprimand should be the bare minimum here.
Isn't it that the stewards only investigate things reported to them though? Not agreeing with it, but I just remember that this is the way they operate
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:21 am
by pokerman
Siao7 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:53 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Greenman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:39 pm
-
Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?
Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.
His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).
.
Indeed if the police catch me driving without a seat belt on then it's an automatic fine even though I'm the only one being put in danger.
Racing and every day driving are not comparable really.
True racing tends to be stricter so I wouldn't be suprised to see him with points on his license as well with it concerning safety, you get points on your license just for reversing down the pit lane for instance.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:32 am
by pokerman
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:25 pm
PRFAN wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:21 pm
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
I'll give you a hand. You obviously are struggling with the concept of "facts"
Here is your post with opinions underlined for you.
He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !
To be honest, I think you're reaching here. As someone who's worn a safety harness, it's inconceivable to me that he would not have been aware it was undone. And quite frankly, he knew the harness was undone because he had undone it himself.
I think your assessment is correct and Mikeyg123 is completely wrong. I think Mikeyg123 is failing to realize the lack of liberty of movement you have once you are secured in your belts, you can not move anything but your arms, can not roll your shoulders, head movement is limited, you are pressed in so hard that is it uncomfortable at first until you get used to the pressure. Drivers that detach the steering wheel and place it near them, find out that once strapped in somebody has to hand them the wheel that they thought was at arms reach.
The moment he unbuckled himself HE KNEW, the moment he started rolling HE KNEW, that is why when he drove past the pit entry he goes " na na na na" on the radio, he knew, he did not got distracted, he did not forget.....he knew. He was going slow because he was "submarining" for lack of a better term, every time he touched the brakes.
It is an absolute breach of safety rules and a stiff penalty should be brought down. No point in DQ, as he retired. He should lose points on his licence and even a one race ban, to me this is that serious.
So why do you suppose he did not come in then if he was aware all along his seat belts were undone?
Perhaps because he was being stupid?
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:36 am
by pokerman
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:25 pm
So why do you suppose he did not come in then if he was aware all along his seat belts were undone?
I don't know. My best guess would be that he hoped to be able to drive quickly enough to salvage a result. After a full lap he realized that wasn't the case, and decided to pit. I think we've seen in the past (Monaco 2019, for example) that Leclerc doesn't always make good safety choices when he's in the heat of the moment.
Another possibility, and one that's more in Leclerc's defense, is that the belts might not have been fully undone. It's possible that he released them as he was going to get out of the car, and then redid the buckle himself when he restarted the engine -- but without his crew to assist him he failed to properly tighten the belts, and they were simply loose instead of fully undone. In that case I can understand continuing and only stopping when you realize they're actually too loose to race.
Did he not say the attach is on the floor and I need a new attach, attach is attachment.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:39 am
by pokerman
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:19 am
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:26 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
Lets see what happens but I'd be surprised if he gets anything north of a fine and some penalty points. I'll be stunned if it's more than a grid penalty.
I wouldn't be. This is a safety issue and I would expect the sanction to be suitably harsh.
Was he even summoned to the stewards? Have we heard anything about it since?
No. It's that, actually, that I find surprising.
It does follow a pattern though.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:41 am
by pokerman
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:22 am
Invade wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:01 am
I don't like saying this, and I am still a Leclerc fan, but he's now showed several instances of having poor judgment and carelessness when it comes to driver safety. In my view, he has a cavalier attitude and either lacks some awareness or is legitimately a bit dangerous. My mind goes back to Monaco 2019, but particularly Japan 2019. Also, some of his moves are right on the limit and in situations where if he went over the limit he could be seriously endangering drivers. And now we have this incident, which I feel is significant.
I don't want to be too harsh but I feel he needs to be more aware or made to calm down a little bit, before some damage is actually done. I hardly see Leclerc like a Grosjean but there is something a bit reckless and cavalier about him which gives me quite serious cause to pause — and this is hard to explain, but it feels more dangerous than, for example, the sort of liberties Verstappen was taking earlier in his career. It has a different tenor to it and I'm not comfortable with it.
I know what you mean, particularly with the Monaco 2019 reference. With Verstappen I always got the impression that he didn't fully understand why everyone thought what he was doing was so dangerous, and once he got enough experience to understand he stopped.
With Leclerc, it's more that he doesn't put any priority on his personal safety. A famous quote by Alain Prost comes to mind: "Ayrton has a small problem, he thinks he can’t kill himself..."
I wonder after getting rear ended by Ricciardo at Baku and Vettel at Silverstone that the penny started to drop?
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:23 pm
by Greenman
.
So! It is Ferrari International Assistance (yet) again.
Disgusting.
( Have they forgotten their campaign for safer driving ? )
.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:13 pm
by Schumacher forever#1
Greenman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:23 pm
.
So! It is Ferrari International Assistance (yet) again.
Disgusting.
( Have they forgotten their campaign for safer driving ? )
.
They really love to play blind when it suits them
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:15 pm
by mikeyg123
Greenman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:23 pm
.
So! It is Ferrari International Assistance (yet) again.
Disgusting.
( Have they forgotten their campaign for safer driving ? )
.
Or they don't find it that big a deal. Hard to know if this is an example of Ferrari bias as, as far as I know, we have no precedent.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:11 am
by Greenman
.
Driving nearly 2 laps at near race speed without a seat harness , not "a big deal" ? More lunacy.
"No precedence" ! Well of course not ! Who would be stupid enough to do it ?
You do remember that the FIA had a huge push on driving safety a few years ago ? Oh! and they seem to think that the regulations apply to other teams.
.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:47 am
by mikeyg123
Greenman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:11 am
.
Driving nearly 2 laps at near race speed without a seat harness , not
"a big deal" ? More lunacy.
"No precedence" ! Well of course not ! Who would be stupid enough to do it ?
You do remember that the FIA had a huge push on driving safety a few years ago ? Oh! and they seem to think that the regulations apply to other teams.
.
The only thing even remotely similar I can think of is when Hamilton drove for a few laps with a loose head restraint. He received no penalty for doing so. It's not in the same scale of safety breach but it was something the team was well aware of whilst he continued to stay out so all in all hard to compare.
I'm all for calling and FIA bias in favour of Ferrari and do so frequently but until the issue crops up for another team's driver then we can't do that in this case.
I still wouldn't be surprised to see Leclerc getting a fine.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:01 am
by Greenman
.
According to you the regs (and the FIA's concentration on safety) don't matter !
IF Leclerc isn't severely punished NOW, then " until the issue crops up for another team's driver then we can't do that in this case " means that if someone else is just as lunatic then they can't be punished because the Leclerc case has set the precedence ! ! ! ! !
Just a fine - for something so serious (and idiotic) ? Your sense of proportion is well out of synch.
.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:04 am
by mikeyg123
Greenman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:01 am
.
According to you the regs (and the FIA's concentration on safety) don't matter !
IF Leclerc isn't severely punished NOW, then " until the issue crops up for another team's driver then we can't do that in this case " means that if someone else is just as lunatic then they can't be punished because the Leclerc case has set the precedence ! ! ! ! !
Just a fine - for something so serious (and idiotic) ? Your sense of proportion is well out of synch.
.
Whilst for my part I think you're being hysterical.
What do the regs actually say? If there is a punishment specified in the regs then I think he should get whatever that is.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:27 am
by Covalent
Greenman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:01 am
.
According to you the regs (and the FIA's concentration on safety) don't matter !
IF Leclerc isn't severely punished NOW, then " until the issue crops up for another team's driver then we can't do that in this case " means that if someone else is just as lunatic then they can't be punished because the Leclerc case has set the precedence ! ! ! ! !
Just a fine - for something so serious (and idiotic) ? Your sense of proportion is well out of synch.
.
Geez calm down would you. This kind of hysteria will only work against you.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:32 am
by Greenman
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"Hysterical" for expecting Leclerc to be held accountable for his actions ?
There is not a specific penalty because no one in their right mind would expect any driver to do something so stupid !
Would anyone expect a driver to put a noose around his neck with a long piece of rope trailing behind whilst he drove his car at near race speed ? No, of course not, no one would expect to have to write it out in such detail. There is a requirement to have a fully operative safety harness that requirement was broken by Leclerc (and to a lesser degree by Ferrari).
Your devotion to Ferrari and disregard of safety is amazing.
.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:37 am
by tootsie323
I would expect some form of statement and sanction to come out in due course. As stated, there is no specific precedence for this. What does surprise me is that we have not yet heard anything from the relevant authority along the lines of we are looking into this etc etc...
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am
by Clarky
https://youtu.be/nTuTcvf-4LQ
He knew what he was doing and he knew it was undone. He wasn't poodling around either.
1:46
Leclerc - "What position are we?"
Engineer - "We are P20, switch radio off"
Leclerc - "Guys we need to box, we need to box. When I went for the button to switch the car on again my seat belts are off now so when I brake Im moving quite a bit. I dont mind but Im sure someone wont be happy."
Engineer - "Copy, box now".
Its mind boggling how he can even think this is ok and the fact there has been no talk from the FIA about is astonishing.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:51 am
by mikeyg123
Greenman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:32 am
.
"Hysterical" for expecting Leclerc to be held accountable for his actions ?
There is not a specific penalty because no one in their right mind would expect any driver to do something so stupid !
Would anyone expect a driver to put a noose around his neck with a long piece of rope trailing behind whilst he drove his car at near race speed ? No, of course not, no one would expect to have to write it out in such detail. There is a requirement to have a fully operative safety harness that requirement was broken by Leclerc (and to a lesser degree by Ferrari).
Your devotion to Ferrari and disregard of safety is amazing.
.
What? You said I wanted to ignore the rules despite the fact that I have repeatedly said Leclerc should be fined. Therefore it is obvious I think he has broken the rules.
What rules do you think I am ignoring? What in the rulebook am I contradicting? Please substantiate this claim.
And if you want to look at my post history you'll see any suggestion of my "devotion to Ferrari" more than laughable.
When you talk of race bans and use such prejudicial language against people with an alternative view to yourself then yes you are being hysterical.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:54 am
by mikeyg123
Clarky wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am
https://youtu.be/nTuTcvf-4LQ
He knew what he was doing and he knew it was undone. He wasn't poodling around either.
1:46
Leclerc - "What position are we?"
Engineer - "We are P20, switch radio off"
Leclerc - "Guys we need to box, we need to box. When I went for the button to switch the car on again my seat belts are off now so when I brake Im moving quite a bit. I dont mind but Im sure someone wont be happy."
Engineer - "Copy, box now".
Its mind boggling how he can even think this is ok and the fact there has been no talk from the FIA about is astonishing.
We know this. He boxed at the end of that lap as instructed by the team.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:06 am
by Clarky
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:54 am
Clarky wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am
https://youtu.be/nTuTcvf-4LQ
He knew what he was doing and he knew it was undone. He wasn't poodling around either.
1:46
Leclerc - "What position are we?"
Engineer - "We are P20, switch radio off"
Leclerc - "Guys we need to box, we need to box. When I went for the button to switch the car on again my seat belts are off now so when I brake Im moving quite a bit. I dont mind but Im sure someone wont be happy."
Engineer - "Copy, box now".
Its mind boggling how he can even think this is ok and the fact there has been no talk from the FIA about is astonishing.
We know this. He boxed at the end of that lap as instructed by the team.
Cant defend the indefensible.
Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:06 am
by Clarky
There has been some OTT posts on this.
Should he get a race ban? NO
Should he get away scott free? ABSOLUTLEY NOT
Its a safety issue which SHOULD NOT be ignored but it looks like it has.