2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:25 pm
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Again totally incorrect - see above.

Why do you insist on coming here and lying ?

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"deserve a major punishment" Where is that evidenced in FACT? Like somewhere either in the rulebook or in precedence that says driving without seatbelt will earn the perpetrator said major punishment?

Because without that, and I don't see it evidenced anywhere, then it is in your opinion that he deserves a major punishment. Which is fine. You'e allowed an opinion. What you shouldn't do is be arrogant enough to describe your opinion as fact.

Don't worry, when you admit your error here and apologise for calling me a liar I will, of course, be gracious enough to accept your apology.

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tootsie323
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

If we're splitting hairs, it is more a subjective than factual item. Having said that, I'm still astounded that the FIA - or whatever relevant authority - has not stepped forward on what is pretty obviously a safety issue.
Edit: just for clarity, Leclerc driving without an attached harness is factual. Whether he, and / or Ferrari, is deserving of a penalty, is the subjective item.
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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

tootsie323 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:17 am
If we're splitting hairs, it is more a subjective than factual item. Having said that, I'm still astounded that the FIA - or whatever relevant authority - has not stepped forward on what is pretty obviously a safety issue.
Edit: just for clarity, Leclerc driving without an attached harness is factual. Whether he, and / or Ferrari, is deserving of a penalty, is the subjective item.
"No way around the fact that he (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) deserve a major punishment."

that's what I was responding to and what is false to claim as fact. I wouldn't usually be so pedantic, but on this thread this particularly poster has continually their own opinion off as facts so I thought they might need some help.

I agree I'm surprised he will seemingly get not so much as a reprimand.

Greenman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

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It is breaking the Sporting Regs and the technical regs - so deserves a punishment.

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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:33 am
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It is breaking the Sporting Regs and the technical regs - so deserves a punishment.

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That was not the claim you made was it?

I before you try to say it's a small distinction please remember that the only difference in our views is that you believe he should be heavily punished where as I think it should be lighter. That has been enough of a difference to make you fairly hostile so you clearly see a major divergence there.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

.

????????

Your previously expressed views have veered from no punishment to an undefined fine - with once (?) the idea that there might be a further minor penalty.

My view is that such a serious safety infringement requires a very serious penalty.

( That is if the "FIA" can actually be bothered to look at its regs and bring itself to uphold those safety standards which it supposedly holds so high. )

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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:18 pm
.

????????

Your previously expressed views have veered from no punishment to an undefined fine - with once (?) the idea that there might be a further minor penalty.

My view is that such a serious safety infringement requires a very serious penalty.

( That is if the "FIA" can actually be bothered to look at its regs and bring itself to uphold those safety standards which it supposedly holds so high. )

.
And you are entitled to hold that view. You aren't entitled to claim that view as a fact. Mine is that a fine would be appropriate and any sporting penalty would not beyond perhaps a couple of licence points. I don't believe you should receive a sporting penalty for non sporting infractions.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

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He broke the sporting regs so it is a "sporting infraction".

You seem to think that the infraction is not serious - so driving at high speed without the mandated safety harness isn't "serious" ! I think that you need to reassess your safety standards - more in line with the FIA's claimed ones.

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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:15 pm
.

He broke the sporting regs so it is a "sporting infraction".

You seem to think that the infraction is not serious - so driving at high speed without the mandated safety harness isn't "serious" ! I think that you need to reassess your safety standards - more in line with the FIA's claimed ones.

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I don't believe it's an infraction deserving of a major penalty and I don't believe there is anything in the rules that would insist on one. The FIA seem to agree with me although as I said earlier in the thread I don't consider that a ringing endorsement of my judgement.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

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What would you do if you found a driver driving at over 100 mph without a seat belt - especially if you had been running a multi-million Euro safe driving campaign ?

Your ideas on safety and the seriousness of the regs breaking are so far from reality.

And there is another, more obvious, reason for the "FIA"'s lack of action, associated with their lack of action over last year's Ferrari engine infractions.

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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:20 am
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What would you do if you found a driver driving at over 100 mph without a seat belt - especially if you had been running a multi-million Euro safe driving campaign ?

Your ideas on safety and the seriousness of the regs breaking are so far from reality.

And there is another, more obvious, reason for the "FIA"'s lack of action, associated with their lack of action over last year's Ferrari engine infractions.

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Nobodies been penalised for it before so we can't know if that's the reason for any inaction.

And seeing as not long ago you were suggesting a multi race ban was appropriate I would steer clear of questioning others detachment from reality.

Siao7
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

I found one Senna incident, it was before F1, but pretty damn crazy:

https://www.ayrtonsenna.com.br/en/parec ... ton-senna/

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:17 am
If we're splitting hairs, it is more a subjective than factual item. Having said that, I'm still astounded that the FIA - or whatever relevant authority - has not stepped forward on what is pretty obviously a safety issue.
Edit: just for clarity, Leclerc driving without an attached harness is factual. Whether he, and / or Ferrari, is deserving of a penalty, is the subjective item.
This is the issue I have, surely this needs to be addressed so it can't happen again, a driver needs to pit immediately, if not then a driver needs to be penalised on safety grounds.
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:28 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:17 am
If we're splitting hairs, it is more a subjective than factual item. Having said that, I'm still astounded that the FIA - or whatever relevant authority - has not stepped forward on what is pretty obviously a safety issue.
Edit: just for clarity, Leclerc driving without an attached harness is factual. Whether he, and / or Ferrari, is deserving of a penalty, is the subjective item.
This is the issue I have, surely this needs to be addressed so it can't happen again, a driver needs to pit immediately, if not then a driver needs to be penalised on safety grounds.
+1 Brushing it aside won't do, if your not going to use the safety protocols might as well get a hacksaw to the halo!

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:39 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:28 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:17 am
If we're splitting hairs, it is more a subjective than factual item. Having said that, I'm still astounded that the FIA - or whatever relevant authority - has not stepped forward on what is pretty obviously a safety issue.
Edit: just for clarity, Leclerc driving without an attached harness is factual. Whether he, and / or Ferrari, is deserving of a penalty, is the subjective item.
This is the issue I have, surely this needs to be addressed so it can't happen again, a driver needs to pit immediately, if not then a driver needs to be penalised on safety grounds.
+1 Brushing it aside won't do, if your not going to use the safety protocols might as well get a hacksaw to the halo!
It seems to me that drivers have never been punished for such incidents, I would say that's an oversight.
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Greenman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:27 am

Nobodies been penalised for it before so we can't know if that's the reason for any inaction.

And seeing as not long ago you were suggesting a multi race ban was appropriate I would steer clear of questioning others detachment from reality.


The reason no one has been penalised for it before is that no one has been lunatic to do it !

And, yes, I still think a multi-race ban would be appropriate.

You keep dodging the seriousness of the infraction of the regs - you seem to think that Leclerc is invulnerable.

Neither you, nor anyone else can deny the stupidity of Leclerc's actions, not the seriousness of the infraction. Somehow hiding behind "FIA"'s inaction merely shows your naivety in considering the "FIA"'s past inaction against Ferrari.

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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:27 am

Nobodies been penalised for it before so we can't know if that's the reason for any inaction.

And seeing as not long ago you were suggesting a multi race ban was appropriate I would steer clear of questioning others detachment from reality.


The reason no one has been penalised for it before is that no one has been lunatic to do it !

And, yes, I still think a multi-race ban would be appropriate.

You keep dodging the seriousness of the infraction of the regs - you seem to think that Leclerc is invulnerable.

Neither you, nor anyone else can deny the stupidity of Leclerc's actions, not the seriousness of the infraction. Somehow hiding behind "FIA"'s inaction merely shows your naivety in considering the "FIA"'s past inaction against Ferrari.

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People have given examples of others returning to the pits without seat belts.

I don't think the infraction is serious enough to warrant anything even close to a multi race ban and there is nothing in the rules to evidence the level of seriousness. Personally I find it less likely to result in someone getting hurt than a driver ignoring a yellow flag, the safety car bunching up the field or a team releasing a car into the path of another in the pitlane.

The degree of seriousness is your opinion and nothing more.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by WHoff78 »

Have to admit that it's pretty hard to read this conversation and not come to the conclusion that any penalty should be on the more severe side. Can only assume that they are deliberating this and making sure that they think everything through carefully before they take action. Guess we'll know by the weekend.

Not sure how you can argue this is less risk than things such as a release into another car in the pit lane, which is accidental in the spur of the moment anyway. LeClerc had a fair amount of time in which he really should have come to the conclusion that he needed to pit. The cars are so safe for the drivers with all the current measures in place. It's actually as impressive as any other part of the design how much they do protect these drivers when you see the cars of the past disintegrate on impact. But surely with the seat belt undone all of that is irrelevant. I assume if he has a high speed accident in one of these cars without a seat belt chances are that he isn't climbing out. Sobering as the thought may be.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Just a thought; how many laps did Hamilton race with a headrest that had worked itself loose? Two, I believe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1f4YbQlDDM
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

So, Leclerc did put the belts on again but realized while driving again that one of the four was not tight enough and retired into the pits. I struggle to see the big scandal, tbh.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:57 pm
So, Leclerc did put the belts on again but realized while driving again that one of the four was not tight enough and retired into the pits. I struggle to see the big scandal, tbh.
I'm not sure he did because the buckle was missing or as leclerc called it the attach, anyway it's fast becoming old news.
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:57 pm
So, Leclerc did put the belts on again but realized while driving again that one of the four was not tight enough and retired into the pits. I struggle to see the big scandal, tbh.
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Absolutely not !

As Pokerman noted there was no "attach"/attachment for the 6 harnesses to connect to. Ferrari engineers looked for it in the bottom of the cockpit when Leclerc eventually came into the pits but couldn't find it, and Ferrari had no spare. It was presumably jettisoned when Leclerc prepared to get out of the car ?

( P.S. Amazing hypocrisy this weekend when there is so much commemoration of the anniversary of Anthoine Hubert's death that the FIA still haven't punished either Leclerc, nor Ferrari for this utter piece of safety stupidity. )

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tootsie323
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Have to say that I find it quite incredible that this harness issue has been apparently overlooked by the powers-that-be.
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Exediron »

On the subject of Leclerc's seat belts, I happened to see this article:

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/943011/1/ ... spanish-gp

Which contains an interesting quote from Charles:
“I did one slow lap, especially to know if the engine was working properly again or not. And then on the second lap when I started to push I realised that one of the four buckles we have as a seatbelt was not on. So I told it to the team and I stopped straight away.”
If he's presenting the facts accurately, that's nowhere near as bad as it sounded originally, and would explain why the FIA has taken no action.
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

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Absolute rubbish.

There is NO way that he didn't know that the harness was totally undone. Just getting back onto the track would have thrown him about in the cockpit.

He had no "attach" (attachment) to do any of the 6 (six) harnesses up - you can see the Ferrari engineers looking for it in the bottom of the cockpit when he pits !

Unfortunately that is either an extremely wrong translation, or a deliberate lie.

Also you missed out his "So I told it to the team and I stopped straight away.” which is a simple lie.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

I'd be surprised if an F1 driver could brake with the power they do and not have significant issues if they had their harness fully undone. Their body would shoot forward as the seats do very little to keep them in place so their arms would be having to resist 4G whist changing gear and steering.
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Exediron »

Greenman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:32 pm
He had no "attach" (attachment) to do any of the 6 (six) harnesses up - you can see the Ferrari engineers looking for it in the bottom of the cockpit when he pits !
To be honest, I see this repeated all the time and I think it is the absolute rubbish here. There's no way the harness is designed so that the attachment point can just come off and land somewhere random in the cockpit. It's going to be a part of one of the straps (usually I think the bottom pair) not a free-floating piece.

I think the mechanics were looking at the attachment -- which, being a part of the bottom straps, would be lying on the floor of the car with the harness unbuckled.
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:38 pm
I'd be surprised if an F1 driver could brake with the power they do and not have significant issues if they had their harness fully undone. Their body would shoot forward as the seats do very little to keep them in place so their arms would be having to resist 4G whist changing gear and steering.
You would certainly have to utilise the Stirling Moss, arms straight and locked rigid, driving style!

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

Exediron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:40 am
Greenman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:32 pm
He had no "attach" (attachment) to do any of the 6 (six) harnesses up - you can see the Ferrari engineers looking for it in the bottom of the cockpit when he pits !
To be honest, I see this repeated all the time and I think it is the absolute rubbish here. There's no way the harness is designed so that the attachment point can just come off and land somewhere random in the cockpit. It's going to be a part of one of the straps (usually I think the bottom pair) not a free-floating piece.

I think the mechanics were looking at the attachment -- which, being a part of the bottom straps, would be lying on the floor of the car with the harness unbuckled.
.

If so, they would have lifted up each of the six arms of the harness and found the attach/attachment they failed.


Also, post race, Ferrari stated they didn't have a spare.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:20 pm
On the subject of Leclerc's seat belts, I happened to see this article:

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/943011/1/ ... spanish-gp

Which contains an interesting quote from Charles:
“I did one slow lap, especially to know if the engine was working properly again or not. And then on the second lap when I started to push I realised that one of the four buckles we have as a seatbelt was not on. So I told it to the team and I stopped straight away.”
If he's presenting the facts accurately, that's nowhere near as bad as it sounded originally, and would explain why the FIA has taken no action.
:thumbup:
It is really a non- issue. He did not drive without seat belts.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

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Is that what you'll say to the police when they stop you for driving without your seat belt done up ?

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:48 pm
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Is that what you'll say to the police when they stop you for driving without your seat belt done up ?

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If I have three out of four on, the police will be more than satisfied. ;)
I don't see the relevance of the comparison, though.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

All makes the huge hyperbowl a but embarrassing really.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:04 pm

If I have three out of four on, the police will be more than satisfied. ;)
I don't see the relevance of the comparison, though.
.

But if you have zero out of 6 done up (as Leclerc did) the police will certainly NOT be satisfied !

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:08 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:04 pm

If I have three out of four on, the police will be more than satisfied. ;)
I don't see the relevance of the comparison, though.
.

But if you have zero out of 6 done up (as Leclerc did) the police will certainly NOT be satisfied !

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You have not really understood that only one of the four was not fastened correctly?

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

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According to the radio it was NONE done up. IF five had been done then the attach/attachment would have been there and the sixth belt could have been done up and the Ferrari pit crew would not have been searching the floor of the cockpit for it (and Ferrari would not have had to say that they didn't have a spare).

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:52 pm
.

According to the radio it was NONE done up. IF five had been done then the attach/attachment would have been there and the sixth belt could have been done up and the Ferrari pit crew would not have been searching the floor of the cockpit for it (and Ferrari would not have had to say that they didn't have a spare).

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According to the full reports released in the meantime your interpretation of the incomplete radio snips that were broadcasted is not accurate.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:46 pm
All makes the huge hyperbowl a but embarrassing really.
The classic Spanners Missed Apex "Hyper-Bowl."

Indeed, I think this has been well clarified now and we can see it wasn't nearly all that.


Some of us did spew accidental hyperbole on account of misunderstood and unknown evidence, myself included.

Leclerc, you are free to go!

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:20 pm


According to the full reports released in the meantime your interpretation of the incomplete radio snips that were broadcasted is not accurate.
The radio is quite explicit and does NOT support the Leclerc, or Ferrari "spin" statements (we KNOW that Leclerc has made incorrect statements).

PLEASE find a reliable source to contradict the radio comments.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Greenman wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:36 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:20 pm


According to the full reports released in the meantime your interpretation of the incomplete radio snips that were broadcasted is not accurate.
The radio is quite explicit and does NOT support the Leclerc, or Ferrari "spin" statements (we KNOW that Leclerc has made incorrect statements).

PLEASE find a reliable source to contradict the radio comments.
The detailed reports are plausible, well in line with the evidence and much more meaningful and significant than the incomplete radio snippets (which nevertheless are in line with the reports as well).
It was different than you thought - get over it !

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