Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

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Invade
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by Invade »

A lot can happen in Hamilton's career moving forward to change perception. He could, as an aging star, put Verstappen, Leclerc, and an ascending future teammate in George Russell in the shade. Or he could be overhauled in a titanic struggle which does him no harm say, but doesn't much better his standing in the GOAT debate among those really paying attention to the sport. OR we may see him get outclassed by some of these young talents the moment things appear to equalise, and this could hurt his standing. For Hamilton, I feel the situation is pending even though at the bare minimum he will go down in the top echelon of greats for most observers almost no matter what happens from here on out.

Senna and Schumacher's records are in the books.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by BMWSauber84 »

I personally put Schumacher ahead of Hamilton and Senna too. There is one caveat though and that's that Hamilton has arguably raced for most of his career in an era of racing that doesn't ideally suit his style. Toddling around five seconds off quali pace on cheese tyres in 2011-2013 on and off was always likely to blunt the skill of a driver of Hamilton's style more than the likes of Button and Vettel. Alonso deserves huge credit for adapting quickly.

Adaptability is a big part of judging a driver's greatness of course, and these days Hamilton can manage tyres like few others, and is very comfortable in the hybrid era. But post 2009 he will likely never again get the chance to do the kind of mid race near qualifying style laps on low fuel like Schumi used to love doing. We see Hamilton's natural pace in qualifying of course, but with modern tyres, we all too rarely get that in races.

The rules are the same for everyone, and I don't doubt that Vettel, Verstappen and plenty of others would thrive in a return to that kind of racing. I just feel like the Hamilton of 07-09 was one of the most entertaining drivers to watch ever. There were mistakes, but also feats of brilliance.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by F1_Ernie »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:15 pm
I personally put Schumacher ahead of Hamilton and Senna too. There is one caveat though and that's that Hamilton has arguably raced for most of his career in an era of racing that doesn't ideally suit his style. Toddling around five seconds off quali pace on cheese tyres in 2011-2013 on and off was always likely to blunt the skill of a driver of Hamilton's style more than the likes of Button and Vettel. Alonso deserves huge credit for adapting quickly.

Adaptability is a big part of judging a driver's greatness of course, and these days Hamilton can manage tyres like few others, and is very comfortable in the hybrid era. But post 2009 he will likely never again get the chance to do the kind of mid race near qualifying style laps on low fuel like Schumi used to love doing. We see Hamilton's natural pace in qualifying of course, but with modern tyres, we all too rarely get that in races.

The rules are the same for everyone, and I don't doubt that Vettel, Verstappen and plenty of others would thrive in a return to that kind of racing. I just feel like the Hamilton of 07-09 was one of the most entertaining drivers to watch ever. There were mistakes, but also feats of brilliance.
Hamilton was very good in 2012, much better than Button. McLaren let him down alot that year.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by tootsie323 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:07 am
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:15 pm
I personally put Schumacher ahead of Hamilton and Senna too. There is one caveat though and that's that Hamilton has arguably raced for most of his career in an era of racing that doesn't ideally suit his style. Toddling around five seconds off quali pace on cheese tyres in 2011-2013 on and off was always likely to blunt the skill of a driver of Hamilton's style more than the likes of Button and Vettel. Alonso deserves huge credit for adapting quickly.

Adaptability is a big part of judging a driver's greatness of course, and these days Hamilton can manage tyres like few others, and is very comfortable in the hybrid era. But post 2009 he will likely never again get the chance to do the kind of mid race near qualifying style laps on low fuel like Schumi used to love doing. We see Hamilton's natural pace in qualifying of course, but with modern tyres, we all too rarely get that in races.

The rules are the same for everyone, and I don't doubt that Vettel, Verstappen and plenty of others would thrive in a return to that kind of racing. I just feel like the Hamilton of 07-09 was one of the most entertaining drivers to watch ever. There were mistakes, but also feats of brilliance.
Hamilton was very good in 2012, much better than Button. McLaren let him down alot that year.
I'd be tempted to go a step further and say 2007 through to 2012, with the exception of 2011 where his head was just, let's say, under-torqued.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by cmax »

tootsie323 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:27 am
F1_Ernie wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:07 am
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:15 pm
I personally put Schumacher ahead of Hamilton and Senna too. There is one caveat though and that's that Hamilton has arguably raced for most of his career in an era of racing that doesn't ideally suit his style. Toddling around five seconds off quali pace on cheese tyres in 2011-2013 on and off was always likely to blunt the skill of a driver of Hamilton's style more than the likes of Button and Vettel. Alonso deserves huge credit for adapting quickly.

Adaptability is a big part of judging a driver's greatness of course, and these days Hamilton can manage tyres like few others, and is very comfortable in the hybrid era. But post 2009 he will likely never again get the chance to do the kind of mid race near qualifying style laps on low fuel like Schumi used to love doing. We see Hamilton's natural pace in qualifying of course, but with modern tyres, we all too rarely get that in races.

The rules are the same for everyone, and I don't doubt that Vettel, Verstappen and plenty of others would thrive in a return to that kind of racing. I just feel like the Hamilton of 07-09 was one of the most entertaining drivers to watch ever. There were mistakes, but also feats of brilliance.
Hamilton was very good in 2012, much better than Button. McLaren let him down alot that year.
I'd be tempted to go a step further and say 2007 through to 2012, with the exception of 2011 where his head was just, let's say, under-torqued.
I would say that under-tourqed head produced brilliant races too in that year. China, Germany and Hungary come to mind.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by j man »

tootsie323 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:27 am
F1_Ernie wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:07 am
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:15 pm
I personally put Schumacher ahead of Hamilton and Senna too. There is one caveat though and that's that Hamilton has arguably raced for most of his career in an era of racing that doesn't ideally suit his style. Toddling around five seconds off quali pace on cheese tyres in 2011-2013 on and off was always likely to blunt the skill of a driver of Hamilton's style more than the likes of Button and Vettel. Alonso deserves huge credit for adapting quickly.

Adaptability is a big part of judging a driver's greatness of course, and these days Hamilton can manage tyres like few others, and is very comfortable in the hybrid era. But post 2009 he will likely never again get the chance to do the kind of mid race near qualifying style laps on low fuel like Schumi used to love doing. We see Hamilton's natural pace in qualifying of course, but with modern tyres, we all too rarely get that in races.

The rules are the same for everyone, and I don't doubt that Vettel, Verstappen and plenty of others would thrive in a return to that kind of racing. I just feel like the Hamilton of 07-09 was one of the most entertaining drivers to watch ever. There were mistakes, but also feats of brilliance.
Hamilton was very good in 2012, much better than Button. McLaren let him down alot that year.
I'd be tempted to go a step further and say 2007 through to 2012, with the exception of 2011 where his head was just, let's say, under-torqued.
Hamilton's 2011 season was such a key turning point in his career. It wasn't just the string of incidents, it was the first year of the fragile Pirelli tyres and he hadn't got the hang of managing them and thus Button was showing him up on race pace. What was impressive to me though, and I think it shows a side of Hamilton's character that has helped to shape his career, was how he took all the criticism on board, went away over the winter and used it to make himself a better driver.

It is something that I've always found quite admirable about Lewis: that he owns up to and takes responsibility for his mistakes and doesn't hide behind excuses. It's a rare trait in drivers competing at the sharp end of the grid and I think it is important to consider when having this discussion about the "greatest" drivers because it's a big part of his legacy and how his attitude can influence the next generation. Contrast that with the "win at all costs" mentality that Senna passed down to Schumacher.

In terms of driving ability, Hamilton sits just behind Schumacher and Alonso as the best I've seen (Senna and Prost were just before my time) but in most other criteria that define "the greatest" he surpasses both, and I believe he surpasses Senna as well. And with his current initiative to make the sport more accessible to a wider variety of backgrounds, both on the driving and engineering side, the most influential and enduring aspect of Hamilton's legacy may yet still be to come.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by mikeyg123 »

Hamilton's ability to turn weaknesses into strengths is very impressive. He's a completely different driver now than the one that made hard work of the 2008 championship. He used to be very aggressive and was the guy who would try for an overtake or make a risky move no matter what. Now he has developed into the best percentage player I've ever seen in F1.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by Schermerhorn »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:15 am
Hamilton's ability to turn weaknesses into strengths is very impressive. He's a completely different driver now than the one that made hard work of the 2008 championship. He used to be very aggressive and was the guy who would try for an overtake or make a risky move no matter what. Now he has developed into the best percentage player I've ever seen in F1.
Hamilton's internal mental strength and self belief is very very impressive. I rate Alonso's much higher though, in that he's had much more resistance and obstacles to overcome in his F1 career. Vettel is the one who let himself down the most in that department though; genuinely I thought at one point he would go onto become the GOAT.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:25 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:15 am
Hamilton's ability to turn weaknesses into strengths is very impressive. He's a completely different driver now than the one that made hard work of the 2008 championship. He used to be very aggressive and was the guy who would try for an overtake or make a risky move no matter what. Now he has developed into the best percentage player I've ever seen in F1.
Hamilton's internal mental strength and self belief is very very impressive. I rate Alonso's much higher though, in that he's had much more resistance and obstacles to overcome in his F1 career. Vettel is the one who let himself down the most in that department though; genuinely I thought at one point he would go onto become the GOAT.
I would say that some of Alonso's obstacles were self inflicted.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

As extremely superb as Hamilton is, until someone is obliterating fields that way Schumacher did, Michael will remain the GOAT.
Hamilton is indeed ultra consistent, on the same level as Michael in that sense, but Michael had an innate ability to push even further when it seemed the limit was already reached, and he'd continue to lap quicker to the end of the race. That's why he'd finish as far ahead as he did so often.

Where I would give Hamilton the nod over Michael is cleanliness and fairness. He's always driven hard but fair. The other driver I admire and respect greatly for that is Raikkonen. He's as clean as there's ever been.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by Johnson »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:19 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:37 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:40 pm
Hamilton's record against Rosberg is indeed telling. As is the fact that in the 7 races that Brundle and Schumacher both finished as teammates Brundle was ahead in 3 of them.
Not all on merit though. Silverstone MS had a crash with a backmarker (Brundle in fairness had a brilliant race, he was leading both Senna and Schumacher for 50 or so laps), in Portugal MS had to start from the back and also had a puncture and in Italy he messed it up (his own fault) and had to pit for repairs. 1 season vs 4 is a much smaller pool though, so maybe not 100% comparable.
Exactly, context is important. Let's look at all of Rosberg's wins while team mates with Hamilton:

2013
Monaco - a great performance by Rosberg
Britain - Hamilton’s tyres exploded when leading the race, which he was expected to win.

2014
Australia - Hamilton Retired due to engine problem
Monaco - Rosberg cheated in qualifying
Austria - Hamilton 1.9 second behind at end of race
Germany - Hamilton brake failure in qualifying, started 14th
Brazil - Hamilton finished 1.4 second behind Rosberg

2015
Spain - Poor hamilton performance
Monaco - Hamilton winning until poor pit strategy call
Austria - poor hamilton performance (3.8 seconds behind on track)
Mexico / Brazil / Abu Dhabi - Hamilton had won the WDC in previous race and was coasting

2016
Australia - turn 1 incident for Hamilton dropped him to 6th from pole and damaged front wing.
Bahrain -Collision with bottas dropped Hamilton to 9th on lap 1
China - Hamilton started 22nd due to not being able to take part in qualifying
Spain - Hamilton turbo failed in qualifying meaning he could not take part in Q3, started 10th
Baku - Hamilton crashed in qualifying, so started 10th
Belgium - Engine penalties meant Hamilton started 21st on the grid
Italy - Poor start (suspected car issue) after outqualifying Rosberg by 0.5second dropped him right down the field
Singapore - can’t remember this one, but we’ll count it as a poor Hamilton performance
Japan - Another poor start dropped Hamilton to 8th into turn 1

I have put in bold the races where Hamilton was indisputably outperformed by Rosberg and in highlighter put races where he was indisputably had circumstances that took him out of contention for the race win.

Schumacher had a number 2 who was not allowed to challenge him during his Ferrari time. Hamilton wouldn't have won Austria 2002. You can't just say "Rosberg wasn't a great but has X wins more than Hamilton therefore Hamilton isn't a GOAT" without digging into the story more than that. Even in 2016 Hamilton drove better than Rosberg - the team principals ranked Hamilton outright best driver, with Rosberg 3rd that year. That doesn't mean Rosberg didn't deserve to win the WDC, or to win the races he did - but it reflects the fact that despite not winning the championship it was known at the time that Hamilton had done a much better job.
But I never did say that. So you're creating a bit of a strawman here.

It's a small part of one of the factors that make me put Hamilton behind some others. I stand by it to. A lot of the issues that stopped Hamilton winning were of his own making. You didn't get that with Schumacher or Senna. They would never have let that happen. At least not as much. It was a common theme from his time with Button as well. During that stage of his career he gave up too many good results to his team mate. Now he's doing to Bottas what Schumacher did to Barrichello or Senna did to Berger. Both very good drivers in their own right and at least as good in there time as Bottas and probably as Rosberg as well. It's true to say Hamilton wouldn't have won Austria 2002 but then for balance you should probably mention he wouldn't have given up Inday 02 or Malaysia 99.

But as I say, I wouldn't get stuck on this. It's only a small part of a part of the reasoning.
It happened to Senna, the gap between Senna and Prost was quite a bit bigger than the gap between Hamilton and Rosberg. Yet Prost took the 1988 title to the end, Senna 8 wins, Prost 7. Then Prost somehow won 1989 despite having a speed deficit greater than the current one between Albon and Verstappen.

1988 and 1989 are so similar to 2014 and 2016 respectively.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:01 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:19 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:37 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:40 pm
Hamilton's record against Rosberg is indeed telling. As is the fact that in the 7 races that Brundle and Schumacher both finished as teammates Brundle was ahead in 3 of them.
Not all on merit though. Silverstone MS had a crash with a backmarker (Brundle in fairness had a brilliant race, he was leading both Senna and Schumacher for 50 or so laps), in Portugal MS had to start from the back and also had a puncture and in Italy he messed it up (his own fault) and had to pit for repairs. 1 season vs 4 is a much smaller pool though, so maybe not 100% comparable.
Exactly, context is important. Let's look at all of Rosberg's wins while team mates with Hamilton:

2013
Monaco - a great performance by Rosberg
Britain - Hamilton’s tyres exploded when leading the race, which he was expected to win.

2014
Australia - Hamilton Retired due to engine problem
Monaco - Rosberg cheated in qualifying
Austria - Hamilton 1.9 second behind at end of race
Germany - Hamilton brake failure in qualifying, started 14th
Brazil - Hamilton finished 1.4 second behind Rosberg

2015
Spain - Poor hamilton performance
Monaco - Hamilton winning until poor pit strategy call
Austria - poor hamilton performance (3.8 seconds behind on track)
Mexico / Brazil / Abu Dhabi - Hamilton had won the WDC in previous race and was coasting

2016
Australia - turn 1 incident for Hamilton dropped him to 6th from pole and damaged front wing.
Bahrain -Collision with bottas dropped Hamilton to 9th on lap 1
China - Hamilton started 22nd due to not being able to take part in qualifying
Spain - Hamilton turbo failed in qualifying meaning he could not take part in Q3, started 10th
Baku - Hamilton crashed in qualifying, so started 10th
Belgium - Engine penalties meant Hamilton started 21st on the grid
Italy - Poor start (suspected car issue) after outqualifying Rosberg by 0.5second dropped him right down the field
Singapore - can’t remember this one, but we’ll count it as a poor Hamilton performance
Japan - Another poor start dropped Hamilton to 8th into turn 1

I have put in bold the races where Hamilton was indisputably outperformed by Rosberg and in highlighter put races where he was indisputably had circumstances that took him out of contention for the race win.

Schumacher had a number 2 who was not allowed to challenge him during his Ferrari time. Hamilton wouldn't have won Austria 2002. You can't just say "Rosberg wasn't a great but has X wins more than Hamilton therefore Hamilton isn't a GOAT" without digging into the story more than that. Even in 2016 Hamilton drove better than Rosberg - the team principals ranked Hamilton outright best driver, with Rosberg 3rd that year. That doesn't mean Rosberg didn't deserve to win the WDC, or to win the races he did - but it reflects the fact that despite not winning the championship it was known at the time that Hamilton had done a much better job.
But I never did say that. So you're creating a bit of a strawman here.

It's a small part of one of the factors that make me put Hamilton behind some others. I stand by it to. A lot of the issues that stopped Hamilton winning were of his own making. You didn't get that with Schumacher or Senna. They would never have let that happen. At least not as much. It was a common theme from his time with Button as well. During that stage of his career he gave up too many good results to his team mate. Now he's doing to Bottas what Schumacher did to Barrichello or Senna did to Berger. Both very good drivers in their own right and at least as good in there time as Bottas and probably as Rosberg as well. It's true to say Hamilton wouldn't have won Austria 2002 but then for balance you should probably mention he wouldn't have given up Inday 02 or Malaysia 99.

But as I say, I wouldn't get stuck on this. It's only a small part of a part of the reasoning.
It happened to Senna, the gap between Senna and Prost was quite a bit bigger than the gap between Hamilton and Rosberg. Yet Prost took the 1988 title to the end, Senna 8 wins, Prost 7. Then Prost somehow won 1989 despite having a speed deficit greater than the current one between Albon and Verstappen.

1988 and 1989 are so similar to 2014 and 2016 respectively.
Without any other challenges it was very much every race that Senna won then Prost would finish second, any DNF for Senna then Prost would win, Senna had more DNF's.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by tootsie323 »

1988 and 1989 were also dictated to a degree by the best-11 results rule. What is also apparent is that, whilst Senna picked up more victories, Prost was more consistent with more podiums and fewer retirements. Interesting, this counted against him in '88 but for him (Senna's rather controversial dsq in Japan aside) in '89.
That aside (or perhaps, more accurately, it is a but of an aside!) I can also draw some parallels with the 2014 / 2016 seasons, in that Rosberg was successful in staying in touch with the faster Hamilton - though I'd put 2016 down more to Rosberg having a better handle on the starts in the early portion of the season and giving himself and advantage leaving Hamilton having to play catch-up (yes - that failure at Malaysia didn't help either in that respect!).
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by Johnson »

Prost was more consistent? Always baffles me that, so if you finish every race in P2 are you more consistent? I’ve heard people say Albon is consistent recently because he finishes P5-P6 every week - no he isn’t, he is just slow.

Senna should have won the title with 5 races to go in 1988. If he was a little wiser in Monaco and Italy, he would have. Prost and Senna knew the first driver to win 9 races was champion, Prost said this after race 2 and all that was important was race wins. Finishes 2nd in 1988 was a worthless result.

Rosberg built his lead in the early part of the year in 2016, due to Hamilton starting P10, P20 after breaking down in qualifying and getting hit by Bottas at turn 1. It was 3 gifted wins to Rosberg in the first 4.

Hamilton only messed up two start at the start of 2016 in Australia and Bahrain. Rosberg also messed up 2 starts in the first 4 races but got away with it in China because Hamilton was starting way down the field and in Australia because he had superior pace to the Ferrari.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:53 am
1988 and 1989 were also dictated to a degree by the best-11 results rule. What is also apparent is that, whilst Senna picked up more victories, Prost was more consistent with more podiums and fewer retirements. Interesting, this counted against him in '88 but for him (Senna's rather controversial dsq in Japan aside) in '89.
That aside (or perhaps, more accurately, it is a but of an aside!) I can also draw some parallels with the 2014 / 2016 seasons, in that Rosberg was successful in staying in touch with the faster Hamilton - though I'd put 2016 down more to Rosberg having a better handle on the starts in the early portion of the season and giving himself and advantage leaving Hamilton having to play catch-up (yes - that failure at Malaysia didn't help either in that respect!).
Regarding the poor starts the systems back then were very much automated and Mercedes didn't have a good system, since the drivers now have full control over their starts it's not without coincidence that the poor starts, Hamllton in particular, have disappeared.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by kleefton »

Invade wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:40 pm
A lot can happen in Hamilton's career moving forward to change perception. He could, as an aging star, put Verstappen, Leclerc, and an ascending future teammate in George Russell in the shade. Or he could be overhauled in a titanic struggle which does him no harm say, but doesn't much better his standing in the GOAT debate among those really paying attention to the sport. OR we may see him get outclassed by some of these young talents the moment things appear to equalise, and this could hurt his standing. For Hamilton, I feel the situation is pending even though at the bare minimum he will go down in the top echelon of greats for most observers almost no matter what happens from here on out.

Senna and Schumacher's records are in the books.

Although Hamilton is still working on his legacy, I don't think he needs to do anything else to be regarded any lower. He can only go higher imo. I mean, did Mohammed Ali tarnish his legacy when he came back to fight and lose to all those guys when he was 40 years old or whatever? Is Roger Federer tarnishing his legacy because he can't beat the younger Djokovic? I don't think so at all. They are both icons forever. If Hamilton is losing to Leclerc or Verstappen 2-3 years from now it really does not matter. Most will think that he is past his prime and losing out to younger talents that are in their prime.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

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Johnson wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:13 am
Prost was more consistent? Always baffles me that, so if you finish every race in P2 are you more consistent? I’ve heard people say Albon is consistent recently because he finishes P5-P6 every week - no he isn’t, he is just slow...
I'm not arguing that Prost was as fast as Senna. But consistency and outright speed are not the same thing. On this basis, Robert Kubica was incredibly consistent last season.
Just simply stating that, on the occasions Senna did not finish, Prost was still mopping up the points. In 1989, Prost had three retirements and otherwise did not finish lower then 5th. Senna had six retirements (and not forgetting that DSQ) with a 7th and 11th classification other than podiums. This, despite Senna's six race wins to Prost's four, is what swung the title to Prost.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by F1_Ernie »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:10 pm
Johnson wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:13 am
Prost was more consistent? Always baffles me that, so if you finish every race in P2 are you more consistent? I’ve heard people say Albon is consistent recently because he finishes P5-P6 every week - no he isn’t, he is just slow...
I'm not arguing that Prost was as fast as Senna. But consistency and outright speed are not the same thing. On this basis, Robert Kubica was incredibly consistent last season.
Just simply stating that, on the occasions Senna did not finish, Prost was still mopping up the points. In 1989, Prost had three retirements and otherwise did not finish lower then 5th. Senna had six retirements (and not forgetting that DSQ) with a 7th and 11th classification other than podiums. This, despite Senna's six race wins to Prost's four, is what swung the title to Prost.
Not exactly hard to pick up points in the Mclaren and win when Senna retired.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by Johnson »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:10 pm
Johnson wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:13 am
Prost was more consistent? Always baffles me that, so if you finish every race in P2 are you more consistent? I’ve heard people say Albon is consistent recently because he finishes P5-P6 every week - no he isn’t, he is just slow...
I'm not arguing that Prost was as fast as Senna. But consistency and outright speed are not the same thing. On this basis, Robert Kubica was incredibly consistent last season.
Just simply stating that, on the occasions Senna did not finish, Prost was still mopping up the points. In 1989, Prost had three retirements and otherwise did not finish lower then 5th. Senna had six retirements (and not forgetting that DSQ) with a 7th and 11th classification other than podiums. This, despite Senna's six race wins to Prost's four, is what swung the title to Prost.
Senna actually had 8 none finishes in 1989. 50% of the races. 1989 was Prosts worst season, but he did win the title. Senna just had a much more extreme Hamilton 2016 type season. Prost was decent in 1988 but nearly all of his wins were races Senna had an issue. Prost had plenty of issues that year too but he was always in P2 when he had them, Senna had his from the lead.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by f1madman »

Definitely Hamilton will be considered as an all time great, unless he deliberately runs over groundhog, I think people will remember him in high esteem in the future.
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by bonecrasher »

No doubt, Hamilton has captivated the motorsport world since his debut. He is fascinating even to those that don’t rate him. Friend and foe alike cannot help but talk about him on and off track. That is greatness. And that will be so for a long long time to come.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by bonecrasher »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:42 am
Invade wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:14 pm
Some of us here had a discussion after Hamilton won his 6th WDC that even if we argue he is half a step below Schumacher or Senna — not that I think that BTW — that the way he has comported himself as a champion might be enough to give him the nod.

To me, these guys competed in different eras and I'm not especially interested in placing one over the other, but at this stage it's hard to deny that Hamilton is in the top echelon of ATGs.

edit:

Well, I can think of a few who would resist for various reasons. I wonder if Hamilton is greater than Piquet yet (and where is Zoue anyway?)

And I wonder if our good pal Mikey is yet at the stage where he'd place Hamilton among the highest of the elite — perhaps not?

Ultimately, there are many standout drivers in the history of F1. It is entirely reasonable if there are some people who place, for example, Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Clark, Prost, Stewart, even Alonso, and at a stretch folks like Piquet or Lauda, ahead of Hamilton.

For most though, I'm sure Hamilton would crack the top 5.

I'm sure there's a good chance Sandman would have him #1 — (and where is Sandman BTW?)
I think it's an interesting conversation and with statistics like Hamilton's he's definitely put himself in the conversation. For me though I wouldn't put him above any of what I consider the big 5. The five drivers who's names are usually discussed in all the GOAT discussions - Clark, Fangio, Prost, Schumacher and Senna.

I think since 2017 Hamilton has been driving at a level that would put him at least on par with any of them. For want of a better word I will call that GOAT level. Now in my opinion Hamilton spent too much of his career driving just under that goat level. I think it took him until his 11th season to get their and be the ultimate package of a driver we have now. I believe the other 5 drivers I have listed achieved that level much sooner and sustained it throughout the bulk of their careers. So while I believe since 2017 Hamilton has been as good as any of them if you took an average over their careers he has been slightly pooter than the other 5.

Now my second reason, and some people are going to hate this but it is my honest opinion, It's hard for me to discuss Hamilton as the GOAT when I don't even consider him the best (note I said best not greatest) driver of his generation. I would give that honor to Alonso. Obviously when discussing "greatness" Hamilton's statistics put him above Alonso in that. When we are talking about potentially the greatest of all time though I feel it's important that should be someone who was the best racing driver of their generation.

My top ten list at present -

1. Schumacher
2. Senna
3. Fangio
4. Clark
5. Prost
6. Hamilton
7. Stewart
8. Alonso
9. Ascari
10. Lauda

I generally define "greatness" in this context using 3 indicators - Ability, achievement, impact on the sport. Someone like Lauda IMO would not be top 10 on ability, he was beaten by too many teammates, but his impact on the sport is very large and his statistics good for his era.

Alonso the reverse. n ability I think he's up in the top 5 but as he spent a lot of his career not fighting for wins his legacy is reduced.
I’m not trying to start an argument but just put my own thoughts forward. I have no qualm at all with ranking the other 4 drivers above Hamilton but Prost I disagree. In my opinion of course. I know Prost has a lot of fans but according to your own criteria did he have more ability than Hamilton? Judging by their raw pace for that 1 blistering lap and ability in the wet I would give this one 100% to Hamilton. Prost was not stellar in qualifying or in wet conditions he hardly ever convinced. And with regards to Prost’s “professor” monicker I would say Hamilton has developed the same skills over his career when managing a race and is now widely considered the modern day Prost of this era so to speak.

Criteria No. 2 is achievement and I don’t think anyone would disagree that Hamilton has achieved more in the Sport than Prost has, I mean the numbers don’t lie.

Criteria No. 3 is Impact on the sport and in that area Prost was a team owner so that’s a huge impact, but that came after his career as a driver and that’s what we are discussing here. Hamilton on the other hand has recently launched in conjunction with the FIA a commission to help with diversity in F1. That’s a commendable initiative that will try to identify obstacles on how to succeed in motorsports for women and other minority races. Just getting it off the ground is a huge achievement for him and can have lasting impact on all of motorsport.

The area I have Prost comfortably ahead of Hamilton is with regards to quality of teammates faced and beaten and that is frankly insane for Prost. In my humble opinion however not big enough to be regarded as better than Hamilton overall in their stature.

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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by Exediron »

bonecrasher wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:05 am
The area I have Prost comfortably ahead of Hamilton is with regards to quality of teammates faced and beaten and that is frankly insane for Prost. In my humble opinion however not big enough to be regarded as better than Hamilton overall in their stature.
But how much does it potentially change / offset the achievement category? If you imagine that -- instead of almost exclusively current or future WDCs -- Prost had been able to drive alongside second tier drivers, he would have had 2-3 more championships, and more wins and poles to go with.

(That said, even as a Prost fan I expect I would rank Lewis ahead by the time he retires)
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Re: Murray Walker Puts Neck out there: HAM v SCH v SEN

Post by mikeyg123 »

bonecrasher wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:05 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:42 am
Invade wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:14 pm
Some of us here had a discussion after Hamilton won his 6th WDC that even if we argue he is half a step below Schumacher or Senna — not that I think that BTW — that the way he has comported himself as a champion might be enough to give him the nod.

To me, these guys competed in different eras and I'm not especially interested in placing one over the other, but at this stage it's hard to deny that Hamilton is in the top echelon of ATGs.

edit:

Well, I can think of a few who would resist for various reasons. I wonder if Hamilton is greater than Piquet yet (and where is Zoue anyway?)

And I wonder if our good pal Mikey is yet at the stage where he'd place Hamilton among the highest of the elite — perhaps not?

Ultimately, there are many standout drivers in the history of F1. It is entirely reasonable if there are some people who place, for example, Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Clark, Prost, Stewart, even Alonso, and at a stretch folks like Piquet or Lauda, ahead of Hamilton.

For most though, I'm sure Hamilton would crack the top 5.

I'm sure there's a good chance Sandman would have him #1 — (and where is Sandman BTW?)
I think it's an interesting conversation and with statistics like Hamilton's he's definitely put himself in the conversation. For me though I wouldn't put him above any of what I consider the big 5. The five drivers who's names are usually discussed in all the GOAT discussions - Clark, Fangio, Prost, Schumacher and Senna.

I think since 2017 Hamilton has been driving at a level that would put him at least on par with any of them. For want of a better word I will call that GOAT level. Now in my opinion Hamilton spent too much of his career driving just under that goat level. I think it took him until his 11th season to get their and be the ultimate package of a driver we have now. I believe the other 5 drivers I have listed achieved that level much sooner and sustained it throughout the bulk of their careers. So while I believe since 2017 Hamilton has been as good as any of them if you took an average over their careers he has been slightly pooter than the other 5.

Now my second reason, and some people are going to hate this but it is my honest opinion, It's hard for me to discuss Hamilton as the GOAT when I don't even consider him the best (note I said best not greatest) driver of his generation. I would give that honor to Alonso. Obviously when discussing "greatness" Hamilton's statistics put him above Alonso in that. When we are talking about potentially the greatest of all time though I feel it's important that should be someone who was the best racing driver of their generation.

My top ten list at present -

1. Schumacher
2. Senna
3. Fangio
4. Clark
5. Prost
6. Hamilton
7. Stewart
8. Alonso
9. Ascari
10. Lauda

I generally define "greatness" in this context using 3 indicators - Ability, achievement, impact on the sport. Someone like Lauda IMO would not be top 10 on ability, he was beaten by too many teammates, but his impact on the sport is very large and his statistics good for his era.

Alonso the reverse. n ability I think he's up in the top 5 but as he spent a lot of his career not fighting for wins his legacy is reduced.
I’m not trying to start an argument but just put my own thoughts forward. I have no qualm at all with ranking the other 4 drivers above Hamilton but Prost I disagree. In my opinion of course. I know Prost has a lot of fans but according to your own criteria did he have more ability than Hamilton? Judging by their raw pace for that 1 blistering lap and ability in the wet I would give this one 100% to Hamilton. Prost was not stellar in qualifying or in wet conditions he hardly ever convinced. And with regards to Prost’s “professor” monicker I would say Hamilton has developed the same skills over his career when managing a race and is now widely considered the modern day Prost of this era so to speak.

Criteria No. 2 is achievement and I don’t think anyone would disagree that Hamilton has achieved more in the Sport than Prost has, I mean the numbers don’t lie.

Criteria No. 3 is Impact on the sport and in that area Prost was a team owner so that’s a huge impact, but that came after his career as a driver and that’s what we are discussing here. Hamilton on the other hand has recently launched in conjunction with the FIA a commission to help with diversity in F1. That’s a commendable initiative that will try to identify obstacles on how to succeed in motorsports for women and other minority races. Just getting it off the ground is a huge achievement for him and can have lasting impact on all of motorsport.

The area I have Prost comfortably ahead of Hamilton is with regards to quality of teammates faced and beaten and that is frankly insane for Prost. In my humble opinion however not big enough to be regarded as better than Hamilton overall in their stature.
You need to look at people in there own time rather than always through a modern lens. Prost's achievements in his time was more WDC's than anyone bar Fangio and far more wins than anybody else ever. In Prost's case he didn't only win four WDC's he was also in serious contention for another 5!

Obviously now with longer careers and more races a season drivers will rack up much better raw stats. That's inevitable.

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