Second Red Bull seat

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Who should they have in the second seat?

Albon
3
11%
Gasly
0
No votes
Kvyat
1
4%
New driver from their own racing programme - who?
0
No votes
Get a proven driver outside their own programme -who?
24
86%
 
Total votes: 28

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Covalent
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Second Red Bull seat

Post by Covalent »

What do you think Red Bull should do with the second seat as it seems now also Albon is seriously underperforming relative to Verstappen? Re-promote Gasly or Kvyat, get someone new in or hang in there with Albon?

To me it seems as long as they have Verstappen in the team they'll never get approximately equally well performing drivers if they keep their philosophy of hiring from their own racing programme. Although I do find it curious how the drivers seem to deliver better result in the Alpha Tauri than in the main team. It's as if Verstappen is the only driver capable of extracting what there is to extract from the Red Bull. But I do suspect he's not the only top driver that would be able to do it.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Siao7 »

The sister team's drivers performing better is not a first, remember that TR famously scored a win before RB did! Maybe it is the pressure, who knows?

For an inter-team swap I'd go for Kvyat, mainly because I like him the most. If they are looking to shop from outside, then I am not sure. I'd go for Russell actually, no idea why, but I'd go for him.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Exediron »

Albon is performing similarly to what I expected. He never looked close to Verstappen on pace last year, but the car was better and that helped mask his shortcomings. He's still better than Gasly, because he's able to overtake. Kvyat wouldn't be any better.

I said driver from outside their program, but honestly they could just as easily stick with Albon. That car isn't going to contend for the WCC no matter who you put in it, so unless it looks like Albon is dropping enough points to cost Red Bull second in the championship (a definite possibility going forward) there's no urgent need to replace him.

As for who to take, I'd probably look toward someone like Rosenqvist from IndyCar or a top Formula E driver. They'd want someone with proven ability at the sharp end of a competitive open wheel series, someone they can reasonably expect to drop into the car and gather reliable points. The second driver isn't meant to beat Max, but they are meant to finish one place behind him as often as possible.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Covalent »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:40 am
The sister team's drivers performing better is not a first, remember that TR famously scored a win before RB did! Maybe it is the pressure, who knows?

For an inter-team swap I'd go for Kvyat, mainly because I like him the most. If they are looking to shop from outside, then I am not sure. I'd go for Russell actually, no idea why, but I'd go for him.
Yeah maybe it's just pressure but I have a feeling there's more to it than that.
How many times would that make if they promote Kvyat again? :lol:

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Covalent »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:42 am
Albon is performing similarly to what I expected. He never looked close to Verstappen on pace last year, but the car was better and that helped mask his shortcomings. He's still better than Gasly, because he's able to overtake. Kvyat wouldn't be any better.

I said driver from outside their program, but honestly they could just as easily stick with Albon. That car isn't going to contend for the WCC no matter who you put in it, so unless it looks like Albon is dropping enough points to cost Red Bull second in the championship (a definite possibility going forward) there's no urgent need to replace him.

As for who to take, I'd probably look toward someone like Rosenqvist from IndyCar or a top Formula E driver. They'd want someone with proven ability at the sharp end of a competitive open wheel series, someone they can reasonably expect to drop into the car and gather reliable points. The second driver isn't meant to beat Max, but they are meant to finish one place behind him as often as possible.
I wouldn't say 2nd in the championship is a given just yet, but even if it were surely it would be better to hit the ground running in 2021/2022 with a driver that's already established in the team. Even if they manage to get the best car, they won't win the WCC with Albon in the second seat assuming the power trio of Hamilton/Bottas/Merc is close behind.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by mikeyg123 »

If it was me I'd put Perez or Hulkenberg in the second seat for 2021. At least then we would have some kind of barometer as to what can realistically be expected from their junior driers going forward. At the moment they don't really know if Verstappen is working miracles in a very difficult car or if Albon and Gasly are simply nowhere near good enough. If you put a known quantity in the seat for a season or perhaps 2 they have an answer to that. Hopefully they'd be good enough to actually provide some back up for Verstappen without being good enough to cause any real problems.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:34 am
If it was me I'd put Perez or Hulkenberg in the second seat for 2021. At least then we would have some kind of barometer as to what can realistically be expected from their junior driers going forward. At the moment they don't really know if Verstappen is working miracles in a very difficult car or if Albon and Gasly are simply nowhere near good enough. If you put a known quantity in the seat for a season or perhaps 2 they have an answer to that. Hopefully they'd be good enough to actually provide some back up for Verstappen without being good enough to cause any real problems.
I think I’ve now come around to this way of thinking, especially as Perez is likely to be available for next season.

I really like Albon but I’m just not sure he’s up to it. I’d give him the rest of the season which I expect Red Bull to do before reassessing.

Going forward, Red Bull might need to look at the way they do things. They’ve promoted Kvyat, Gasly and Albon far too early and unless they get someone from outside the programme they’ll probably make the same mistake again.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by mikeyg123 »

I think the problem is that those three drivers aren't superstars. They also promoted Vettel and Verstappen very rapidly. Whilst both clearly improved in their first few years at Red Bull they managed to show enough talent early on to show their worth. Leclerc was in the same situation as well. Promoted to Ferrari after just one season and was probably better than Vettel was in 09 or Verstappen was in 2016. Verstappen's rise is was particularly rapid. He was driving for Red Bull in just his third year driving cars!

If it was me I'd put Perez in the Red Bull for a season and run both Gasly and Albon in AT. I'd look at how close Perez could get to Verstappen and make a judgement on Albon and Gasly from that. Also it would be useful to Red Bull to see a direct comparison between Gasly and Albon.

All that being said I wouldn't be against the idea of binning of Kvyat, Gasly and Albon and bring in Perez/Hulk at Red Bull and two new drivers at AT. Depending on who gets super licence points. Renault could have 3 young drivers with enough super licence points and nowhere for any of them to go... Could they buy one of those?

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:34 am
If it was me I'd put Perez or Hulkenberg in the second seat for 2021. At least then we would have some kind of barometer as to what can realistically be expected from their junior driers going forward. At the moment they don't really know if Verstappen is working miracles in a very difficult car or if Albon and Gasly are simply nowhere near good enough. If you put a known quantity in the seat for a season or perhaps 2 they have an answer to that. Hopefully they'd be good enough to actually provide some back up for Verstappen without being good enough to cause any real problems.
Ditto.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Covalent »

Perez has been mentioned but how about Hulkenberg? He'd be a good yardstick, reliable points scorer and likely cheap. Hell, if I were Hulkenberg I'd drive for free just to get the damn podium at last.

Edit: Sorry I missed that mikey had mentioned him already.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Covalent »

Not many voters so far but 100% so far agree that they should hire an outsider.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by mikeyg123 »

Covalent wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:22 am
Perez has been mentioned but how about Hulkenberg? He'd be a good yardstick, reliable points scorer and likely cheap. Hell, if I were Hulkenberg I'd drive for free just to get the damn podium at last.

Edit: Sorry I missed that mikey had mentioned him already.
I think both would basically fulfil the same purpose. I'd personally go for Perez as I think he's the slightly better of the two.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:40 am
The sister team's drivers performing better is not a first, remember that TR famously scored a win before RB did! Maybe it is the pressure, who knows?

For an inter-team swap I'd go for Kvyat, mainly because I like him the most. If they are looking to shop from outside, then I am not sure. I'd go for Russell actually, no idea why, but I'd go for him.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Flash2k11 »

I can see Perez knocking on the RB door given the situation at RP and he would appear to be an upgrade on Albon. The junior program really doesn't have anyone better right now (its far too soon for Tsunoda) and Gasly and Kyvat have already had their shots and not really done any better than Albon is right now.

I think Albon's major problem right now is just how difficult the current car is to drive, that is magnifying any performance gap between himself and a generational talent in Max. His poor qualifying efforts could well be a case of him overpushing the car to try and compensate for that gap, and with the midfield closer this year, a poor quali will cost you so much more than in the years where RB were comfortably clear of the midfield pack.

Personally, if I were Horner, i'd be talking to Perez. He's one of the best tier 2 drivers who also happens to have a chunk of change in his pocket to go with his talent, something which never hurt any team.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by UnlikeUday »

Well Perez would make the lineup so worthwhile. There are a few similarities between Perez and Verstappen's style of attack and driving. Perez definitely deserves a shot in a top tier team. He probably won't dissapoint as he always extracts more than maximum from the car under him.

If he's ousted from RP, RB should take a chance on him.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:21 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:40 am
The sister team's drivers performing better is not a first, remember that TR famously scored a win before RB did! Maybe it is the pressure, who knows?

For an inter-team swap I'd go for Kvyat, mainly because I like him the most. If they are looking to shop from outside, then I am not sure. I'd go for Russell actually, no idea why, but I'd go for him.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

I would let Albon, Gasly and Kvyat go.

For Red Bull, I'd look for an experienced interim, as others have suggested. Availibility may be the key here, but each of Norris, Ocon, Vettel, Hülkenberg, Perez, Magnussen, Russell, Vandoorne, Vergne, or Rosenqvist (leaving out the '21 Mercedes & Ferrari drivers and Ricciardo for obvious reasons) will be quicker than Albon IMO.

For Tauri I'd try to get two out of the trio Vips, Shwartzman, and Lundgaard.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by j man »

None of their own drivers are good enough to partner Verstappen, this was apparent last year and they should have hired Hulkenberg for this season. If Perez is available next year then he's a no brainer.

If Gasly's good form continues over the year then I think he may be worth retaining with a view to giving him a second chance, particularly as none of their up and coming drivers look ready yet. Tsunoda has shown some flashes of speed in F2 but is wildly inconsistent and has ultimately delivered little so far, he probably needs another season. Bringing Dan Ticktum back into the fold may be another option.

So I'll say Gasly and Albon for Alpha Tauri, and for the Red Bull seat whoever is available out of Perez, Vettel or Hulkenberg.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 am
If it was me I'd put Perez in the Red Bull for a season and run both Gasly and Albon in AT. I'd look at how close Perez could get to Verstappen and make a judgement on Albon and Gasly from that. Also it would be useful to Red Bull to see a direct comparison between Gasly and Albon.
I this this is a very solid idea. Verstappen is still largely an unknown in terms of comparison to other F1 drivers (although the more people Danny Ric takes on and solidly beats, the more it becomes clear that Max is somewhere at the very top of that ranking), and pitting Gasly against Albon to determine who gets to have a career in F1 is very Red Bull.

That said, if I was Red Bull I'd take Hulk over Perez -- not because I think Hulk is better (I don't) but because I think he would be a compliant #2 for Verstappen and Perez might not be.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by iano »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 am
If it was me I'd put Perez in the Red Bull for a season and run both Gasly and Albon in AT. I'd look at how close Perez could get to Verstappen and make a judgement on Albon and Gasly from that. Also it would be useful to Red Bull to see a direct comparison between Gasly and Albon.
I this this is a very solid idea. Verstappen is still largely an unknown in terms of comparison to other F1 drivers (although the more people Danny Ric takes on and solidly beats, the more it becomes clear that Max is somewhere at the very top of that ranking), and pitting Gasly against Albon to determine who gets to have a career in F1 is very Red Bull.

That said, if I was Red Bull I'd take Hulk over Perez -- not because I think Hulk is better (I don't) but because I think he would be a compliant #2 for Verstappen and Perez might not be.
I think rather than drivers having a fixed 'speed', they perform differently under different circumstances, and confidence and support have a huge impact.

Whoever partners Verstappen has a tough job as you have to drive for a team that is really behind the other driver.

Red Bull promote drivers, and they fail to perform in the shadow of Verstappen. Take them out of that environment of driving against the team favourite by putting them back in the second team, and they again perform better. Each of their 3 other drivers looks better when not paired against Verstappen.

Compare Vettel at Ferrari now where he feels the support is behind Leclerc, to Vettel at Red Bull when he could feel he was the prodigal son.

So who is going to suffer least when driving for a team where that team wants the other driver to win?

I think Hulkenberg has more chance of keeping his performance near his top level than Perez when driving for a team that actually wants you to be beaten by your team mate, but that is not a reflection on who would be faster under other circumstances.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Covalent »

Yes I think a certain strength of character is needed at Red Bull, maybe even more so than in any other team. And they should keep that very much in mind when considering the alternatives.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by pokerman »

I'm just going by what I think Red Bull will do and they will choose either Albon or Gasly.

Red Bull have shown themselves dogmatic in sticking with their driver program and not signing experienced F1 drivers, however they have shown they will go outside their program regarding junior drivers when they signed Verstappen and tried to sign Norris, but that's only for AlphaTauri.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

I think it would be really interesting if Red Bull Pilfers Russel from Williams and field to elite drivers duke it out as they try to battle it out with Mercedes. That would leave Perez open to join Williams and bring his MUCH NEEDED sponsorship dollars to help the team. I doubt that's what will happen, but it feels to me like that would be the best scenario for all, drivers and teams included.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Invade »

Can we please decide if George Russell's name is spelled with one or two Ls? ;)
Last edited by Invade on Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Invade »

triple post
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Invade »

Let's edit a post so it's at least on topic.

Red Bull should take an experienced driver from outside of their program.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by j man »

iano wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 am
If it was me I'd put Perez in the Red Bull for a season and run both Gasly and Albon in AT. I'd look at how close Perez could get to Verstappen and make a judgement on Albon and Gasly from that. Also it would be useful to Red Bull to see a direct comparison between Gasly and Albon.
I this this is a very solid idea. Verstappen is still largely an unknown in terms of comparison to other F1 drivers (although the more people Danny Ric takes on and solidly beats, the more it becomes clear that Max is somewhere at the very top of that ranking), and pitting Gasly against Albon to determine who gets to have a career in F1 is very Red Bull.

That said, if I was Red Bull I'd take Hulk over Perez -- not because I think Hulk is better (I don't) but because I think he would be a compliant #2 for Verstappen and Perez might not be.
I think rather than drivers having a fixed 'speed', they perform differently under different circumstances, and confidence and support have a huge impact.

Whoever partners Verstappen has a tough job as you have to drive for a team that is really behind the other driver.

Red Bull promote drivers, and they fail to perform in the shadow of Verstappen. Take them out of that environment of driving against the team favourite by putting them back in the second team, and they again perform better. Each of their 3 other drivers looks better when not paired against Verstappen.

Compare Vettel at Ferrari now where he feels the support is behind Leclerc, to Vettel at Red Bull when he could feel he was the prodigal son.

So who is going to suffer least when driving for a team where that team wants the other driver to win?

I think Hulkenberg has more chance of keeping his performance near his top level than Perez when driving for a team that actually wants you to be beaten by your team mate, but that is not a reflection on who would be faster under other circumstances.
For me the problem is just how far Albon and Gasly have been behind Verstappen. I mean they have been nowhere near, they look like they've been driving for a different team entirely. The Ferrari team of the early 2000s was very Schumacher-centric but Barrichello was still able to get close to him and beat him on occasion. Even Alonso and Fisichella at Renault (another very lead driver focused team) were not as far apart as the Red Bulls have been. The Verstappen-centric nature of the Red Bull team is not an excuse that Albon or Gasly can justifiably hide behind.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by mikeyg123 »

j man wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:27 pm
iano wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 am
If it was me I'd put Perez in the Red Bull for a season and run both Gasly and Albon in AT. I'd look at how close Perez could get to Verstappen and make a judgement on Albon and Gasly from that. Also it would be useful to Red Bull to see a direct comparison between Gasly and Albon.
I this this is a very solid idea. Verstappen is still largely an unknown in terms of comparison to other F1 drivers (although the more people Danny Ric takes on and solidly beats, the more it becomes clear that Max is somewhere at the very top of that ranking), and pitting Gasly against Albon to determine who gets to have a career in F1 is very Red Bull.

That said, if I was Red Bull I'd take Hulk over Perez -- not because I think Hulk is better (I don't) but because I think he would be a compliant #2 for Verstappen and Perez might not be.
I think rather than drivers having a fixed 'speed', they perform differently under different circumstances, and confidence and support have a huge impact.

Whoever partners Verstappen has a tough job as you have to drive for a team that is really behind the other driver.

Red Bull promote drivers, and they fail to perform in the shadow of Verstappen. Take them out of that environment of driving against the team favourite by putting them back in the second team, and they again perform better. Each of their 3 other drivers looks better when not paired against Verstappen.

Compare Vettel at Ferrari now where he feels the support is behind Leclerc, to Vettel at Red Bull when he could feel he was the prodigal son.

So who is going to suffer least when driving for a team where that team wants the other driver to win?

I think Hulkenberg has more chance of keeping his performance near his top level than Perez when driving for a team that actually wants you to be beaten by your team mate, but that is not a reflection on who would be faster under other circumstances.
For me the problem is just how far Albon and Gasly have been behind Verstappen. I mean they have been nowhere near, they look like they've been driving for a different team entirely. The Ferrari team of the early 2000s was very Schumacher-centric but Barrichello was still able to get close to him and beat him on occasion. Even Alonso and Fisichella at Renault (another very lead driver focused team) were not as far apart as the Red Bulls have been. The Verstappen-centric nature of the Red Bull team is not an excuse that Albon or Gasly can justifiably hide behind.
It's a problem. To be brutal I think that's because Barrichello and Fisichella were very good drivers in their own rights. Both could have won a championship had things worked out differently in their careers. I doubt we will end up saying the same thing about Gasly or Albon.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Essentially when Ricciardo left, Red Bull lost a 1B driver, and failed to replace him with a good number 2 driver. They skipped a rung on the ladder so to speak.

The commitment to their own "family" of drivers is admirable in some respects and has yielded great success in the past. At present however, it is clearly holding the team back. Has they kept Sainz on board, I've little doubt that he would currently be doing a solid job for RB. Bit that's all in the past.

I think their best bet is to take Perez on a one year deal with a further one year option while they wait for their young driver program to catch up.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by UnlikeUday »

It's looking very likely now Perez will be a free driver for 2021. The only issue is the personalities of Verstappen and Perez will clash at some or the other time.

Otherwise Perezs caliber is good enough to ensure he can grab the odd podium when available or finish 4th behind Verstappen and the 2 Mercedes cars.

He has the race craft and skill to look after the tires. To top it, Red Bull's great tactics with pit strategy could create amazing results for Perez.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Jezza13 »

I think if RB were to punt Albon & look outside of their YDP for a #2 for next year my guess is they'd stump for Hulkenberg over Perez. To me he'd just seem a better fit into RB's game plan that Perez would.

I can see Haas making a big play for Perez & Mr Slims Peso's. Or maybe Alfa if Raikkonen retires which is highly likely too.
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Beleriand_K »

How about poaching Kevin Magnussen from Haas? His cowboy-attitude would fit very well with Red Bull, and he's a fast driver, who can win races in the right car.

He's not good enough to be a threat to Verstappen, but there is no way he would be lapped by him either. As driver #2 he would collect a serious amount of points to the team during the season.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by mikeyg123 »

Beleriand_K wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:39 pm
How about poaching Kevin Magnussen from Haas? His cowboy-attitude would fit very well with Red Bull, and he's a fast driver, who can win races in the right car.

He's not good enough to be a threat to Verstappen, but there is no way he would be lapped by him either. As driver #2 he would collect a serious amount of points to the team during the season.
I don't think anyone would decline Perez or Hulkenberg for KMag.

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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Beleriand_K »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:56 pm
Beleriand_K wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:39 pm
How about poaching Kevin Magnussen from Haas? His cowboy-attitude would fit very well with Red Bull, and he's a fast driver, who can win races in the right car.

He's not good enough to be a threat to Verstappen, but there is no way he would be lapped by him either. As driver #2 he would collect a serious amount of points to the team during the season.
I don't think anyone would decline Perez or Hulkenberg for KMag.
With eight podiums so far Perez would be the obvious choice, but Hülkenberg... He was declared the up-and-coming superstar since his arrival at Formula 1 a long time ago, but after 182 GP without a podium nobody wanted to sign him. He's not a bad driver, but midfield-potential without that little extra that makes Perez a regular pointscorer and Magnussen a potential racewinner.

mikeyg123
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by mikeyg123 »

I don't think Magnusen is any more of a potential race winner than Hulkenberg. We've seen how they compared directly to Palmer. Hulkenberg was way better despite Magnussen facing Palmer in his rookie season. No way would I pick Magnussen over Hulk. I just don't think he's as good.

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Exediron
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:31 pm
I don't think Magnusen is any more of a potential race winner than Hulkenberg. We've seen how they compared directly to Palmer. Hulkenberg was way better despite Magnussen facing Palmer in his rookie season. No way would I pick Magnussen over Hulk. I just don't think he's as good.
:thumbup:

Agreed. No way Magnussen is as good as Hulkenberg, let alone better. He has more killer instinct (too much), but that's about it.
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oz_karter
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Re: Second Red Bull seat

Post by oz_karter »

Beleriand_K wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:39 pm
How about poaching Kevin Magnussen from Haas? His cowboy-attitude would fit very well with Red Bull, and he's a fast driver, who can win races in the right car.

He's not good enough to be a threat to Verstappen, but there is no way he would be lapped by him either. As driver #2 he would collect a serious amount of points to the team during the season.
No way. I don't rate Magnussen at all. He is inconsistent and never blindingly fast. He often has blues with other drivers, but never over a podium spot. He only looks consistent because Grosjean is even worse.

There are plenty of other better options for the seat. Hulkenberg or Perez are obvious choices if they're seeking an experienced driver.

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