Is Mercedes unbeatable?

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KingVoid
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by KingVoid »

Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.

mikeyg123
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
Mercedes are pretty fortunate to have more wins than Red Bull this season tbf.

Schumacher forever#1
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:30 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
Mercedes are pretty fortunate to have more wins than Red Bull this season tbf.
Or Red Bull are fortunate that they are given race winning opportunities despite having a much worse car.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

mikeyg123
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:30 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
Mercedes are pretty fortunate to have more wins than Red Bull this season tbf.
Or Red Bull are fortunate that they are given race winning opportunities despite having a much worse car.
Both statements are rather making the same point.

Schumacher forever#1
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:11 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:30 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
Mercedes are pretty fortunate to have more wins than Red Bull this season tbf.
Or Red Bull are fortunate that they are given race winning opportunities despite having a much worse car.
Both statements are rather making the same point.
True, but I believe you are implying Mercedes are not as unbeatable as believed, while I am implying Mercedes are still ultimately dominant.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

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Invade
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
I still think you're being too hasty to write off 2021 as a year which could throw up some intrigue. Red Bull have a year to build and maximise and put themselves in a position where the combo of driver + being on the right side of luck could make the difference come that time. For example, RBR 2nd best car but much closer than now, Verstappen performs better than Hamilton and Hamilton has +2 DNFs due to mechanical failures. We've seen the sort of points swing that can happen when Hamilton nails a season and Vettel... doesn't. Easily 100+ points if you imagine Hamilton making equivalent errors and the points he would have lost and Vettel nailing a season and the points he would have gained. Germany 2018 alone was a direct swing of at minimum 32 points.

2020 would be a mini miracle, but if Red Bull can eke away at the advantage and place themselves within touching distance come 2021, with Verstappen now seemingly firmly in his prime, then we could be in for a compelling season.

I don't doubt that RBR will close the distance really because, to open the season, the gap has been ridiculous and I doubt that will continue on into next year. But a key factor is having a second driver who can at least be in the pitstop windows of the Mercs almost every race (lol). If RBR become a clear threat, you can bet that Mercedes will back Lewis from the BEGINNING of the season, and overtly.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:11 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:30 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
Mercedes are pretty fortunate to have more wins than Red Bull this season tbf.
Or Red Bull are fortunate that they are given race winning opportunities despite having a much worse car.
Both statements are rather making the same point.
True, but I believe you are implying Mercedes are not as unbeatable as believed, while I am implying Mercedes are still ultimately dominant.
One doesn't negate the other.

They clearly have dominant pace.

They also clearly could have been beaten in more than half the races.

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Alex53
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Alex53 »

Over 1 race: No.
Over a season: Yes.

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Schermerhorn
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Hi guys, long time lurker but first time poster on here. Please be gentle with me :)

Look how much political instability there has been at Ferrari since the hybrid era - firing managers and team principals, chopping and changing staff, letting go of key people - while Mercedes have just been rock solid, stable and consistent in their approach; the right people in the right place.
Ferrari are too 'Italian' and will never change - the same accusations have seemingly been levelled at them forever - the Italian media probably doesn't help either when they crank on the pressure the day after a race. This lack of stability is what will keep them as perennial outsiders for any chance of success. They simply do not have what it takes anymore. All in my opinion.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Rockie »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
I don't know why people can't see this?

It wasn't like the Mercedes was working normally and Redbull beat them on pace, even with an extra stop and not being able to run their actual pace they still finished about 10s behind Redbull.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:30 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
Mercedes are pretty fortunate to have more wins than Red Bull this season tbf.
Or Red Bull are fortunate that they are given race winning opportunities despite having a much worse car.
Did Honda introduce updates before this last race?

IDK, but it seems to me that the Red Bulls were mightily fast down the straights and rocketed well out of corners, and Albon's onboard shows it well. He was passing on the outside and pulling away with ease. And the engine node seems to have changed a bit from the deeper gnarly growl to a more crisp, slightly sharper revving.

Either way I'm happy someone has upped their game, but it can be said that Mercedes screwed up yet again with strategy. With such a great car and great team, you'd think the strategists would have their stuff together too, but time and time again, their ineptitude rears its head and they gift wins to other drivers/teams.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Schermerhorn »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:57 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:30 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
Mercedes are pretty fortunate to have more wins than Red Bull this season tbf.
Or Red Bull are fortunate that they are given race winning opportunities despite having a much worse car.
Did Honda introduce updates before this last race?

IDK, but it seems to me that the Red Bulls were mightily fast down the straights and rocketed well out of corners, and Albon's onboard shows it well. He was passing on the outside and pulling away with ease. And the engine node seems to have changed a bit from the deeper gnarly growl to a more crisp, slightly sharper revving.

Either way I'm happy someone has upped their game, but it can be said that Mercedes screwed up yet again with strategy. With such a great car and great team, you'd think the strategists would have their stuff together too, but time and time again, their ineptitude rears its head and they gift wins to other drivers/teams.
They probably have a great engine map which gives an excellent torque response from slower corners. For me, having a great driveable engine with good torque is just as important as top end power. I remember in the mid 2000s how flexible the Renaults were compared to the Ferraris.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

The Red Bulls were fast everywhere, not just in the corners. Their overall Aero package doesn't allow them to pip the top speed, but they're right there.
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KingVoid
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by KingVoid »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:45 pm
The Red Bulls were fast everywhere, not just in the corners. Their overall Aero package doesn't allow them to pip the top speed, but they're right there.
*1 second slower in qualifying

“They’re right there”

As of now, I will refer to this as Totospeak

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:59 am
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
I don't know why people can't see this?

It wasn't like the Mercedes was working normally and Redbull beat them on pace, even with an extra stop and not being able to run their actual pace they still finished about 10s behind Redbull.
What extra stop?

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:53 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:45 pm
The Red Bulls were fast everywhere, not just in the corners. Their overall Aero package doesn't allow them to pip the top speed, but they're right there.
*1 second slower in qualifying

“They’re right there”

As of now, I will refer to this as Totospeak
Not Totospeak. Remember, Saturdays and Sundays vary greatly. It's a well known fact that drivers and teams will sacrifice Saturday for a better Sunday setup. Prost would do this with regularity and Senna would out qualify him by a good margin, yet come Sunday Prost was usually just as and sometimes the faster of the two.

Explain how if they were indeed truly 1-second slower Saturday, how miraculously BOTH Red Bulls were lapping the quickest all race long.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Mort Canard »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:53 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:45 pm
The Red Bulls were fast everywhere, not just in the corners. Their overall Aero package doesn't allow them to pip the top speed, but they're right there.
*1 second slower in qualifying

“They’re right there”

As of now, I will refer to this as Totospeak
Not Totospeak. Remember, Saturdays and Sundays vary greatly. It's a well known fact that drivers and teams will sacrifice Saturday for a better Sunday setup. Prost would do this with regularity and Senna would out qualify him by a good margin, yet come Sunday Prost was usually just as and sometimes the faster of the two.

Explain how if they were indeed truly 1-second slower Saturday, how miraculously BOTH Red Bulls were lapping the quickest all race long.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Exediron »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:22 pm
Explain how if they were indeed truly 1-second slower Saturday, how miraculously BOTH Red Bulls were lapping the quickest all race long.
Tyres. Mercedes seem to have slipped back into their 2013-era performance, where they have insane pace but destroy their tyres when they use it. Bottas and Hamilton have both said they were managing tyres from lap one, whereas Max was able to push without any issues.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Invade »

It was plainly obvious that the result at the 70th Ani. GP was a double whammy of Mercedes suffering the most and RBR suffering the least with the conditions. Red Bull can be optimistic, but ultimately Mercedes either have a fundamental issue in such conditions and/or they dropped the ball in a big way and produced a big blip of a performance. I'd suggest they do have a fundamental relative weakness but that it was more a case of dropping the ball, though we probably won't get to see it again to such an extent this season because this storm of conditions - with compounds more or less too soft for the track and ridiculously high tyre pressures - won't be seen again. This relative weakness might bring RBR into play in Spain but it won't be like what we just saw, and generally Mercedes will simply be quicker given any case, and substantially so until RBR have the time to really eat into what is a very significant advantage.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:02 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:59 am
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
I don't know why people can't see this?

It wasn't like the Mercedes was working normally and Redbull beat them on pace, even with an extra stop and not being able to run their actual pace they still finished about 10s behind Redbull.
What extra stop?
Mercedes stopped twice didn't they?

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by JN23 »

Rockie wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:57 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:02 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:59 am
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
I don't know why people can't see this?

It wasn't like the Mercedes was working normally and Redbull beat them on pace, even with an extra stop and not being able to run their actual pace they still finished about 10s behind Redbull.
What extra stop?
Mercedes stopped twice didn't they?
So did Red Bull.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:57 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:02 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:59 am
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
I don't know why people can't see this?

It wasn't like the Mercedes was working normally and Redbull beat them on pace, even with an extra stop and not being able to run their actual pace they still finished about 10s behind Redbull.
What extra stop?
Mercedes stopped twice didn't they?
So did everyone else apart from Leclerc I think.

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Covalent
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Covalent »

And Kimi.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:59 am
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:01 pm
Let’s be honest, we all know that this was just an anomaly, like Malaysia 2015.

You can bump this thread when someone other than Mercedes wins a world title.
I don't know why people can't see this?

It wasn't like the Mercedes was working normally and Redbull beat them on pace, even with an extra stop and not being able to run their actual pace they still finished about 10s behind Redbull.
They did the same amount of stops.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:53 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:45 pm
The Red Bulls were fast everywhere, not just in the corners. Their overall Aero package doesn't allow them to pip the top speed, but they're right there.
*1 second slower in qualifying

“They’re right there”

As of now, I will refer to this as Totospeak
Not Totospeak. Remember, Saturdays and Sundays vary greatly. It's a well known fact that drivers and teams will sacrifice Saturday for a better Sunday setup. Prost would do this with regularity and Senna would out qualify him by a good margin, yet come Sunday Prost was usually just as and sometimes the faster of the two.

Explain how if they were indeed truly 1-second slower Saturday, how miraculously BOTH Red Bulls were lapping the quickest all race long.
I'm not sure about the Prost analogy, Senna normally had the beating of Prost.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:28 pm
And Kimi.
And Ocon.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Invade »

Normal order has been resumed, but Verstappen is doing enough to beat Bottas.

Hamilton+Mercedes were way faster than Verstappen+RBR in the Spanish GP.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:11 am
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:53 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:45 pm
The Red Bulls were fast everywhere, not just in the corners. Their overall Aero package doesn't allow them to pip the top speed, but they're right there.
*1 second slower in qualifying

“They’re right there”

As of now, I will refer to this as Totospeak
Not Totospeak. Remember, Saturdays and Sundays vary greatly. It's a well known fact that drivers and teams will sacrifice Saturday for a better Sunday setup. Prost would do this with regularity and Senna would out qualify him by a good margin, yet come Sunday Prost was usually just as and sometimes the faster of the two.

Explain how if they were indeed truly 1-second slower Saturday, how miraculously BOTH Red Bulls were lapping the quickest all race long.
I'm not sure about the Prost analogy, Senna normally had the beating of Prost.
Not so. Their rivalry saw them go toe to toe back and forth fairly evenly. Fast forward to 1993… 'Nuff Said.
And if you say it was the car… Sorry, no.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Siao7 »

Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:47 pm
Normal order has been resumed, but Verstappen is doing enough to beat Bottas.

Hamilton+Mercedes were way faster than Verstappen+RBR in the Spanish GP.
Queue Wolff talking about RB taking the fight to Mercedes and the fight is on now...

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:41 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:11 am
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:53 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:45 pm
The Red Bulls were fast everywhere, not just in the corners. Their overall Aero package doesn't allow them to pip the top speed, but they're right there.
*1 second slower in qualifying

“They’re right there”

As of now, I will refer to this as Totospeak
Not Totospeak. Remember, Saturdays and Sundays vary greatly. It's a well known fact that drivers and teams will sacrifice Saturday for a better Sunday setup. Prost would do this with regularity and Senna would out qualify him by a good margin, yet come Sunday Prost was usually just as and sometimes the faster of the two.

Explain how if they were indeed truly 1-second slower Saturday, how miraculously BOTH Red Bulls were lapping the quickest all race long.
I'm not sure about the Prost analogy, Senna normally had the beating of Prost.
Not so. Their rivalry saw them go toe to toe back and forth fairly evenly. Fast forward to 1993… 'Nuff Said.
And if you say it was the car… Sorry, no.
Rewind to 91... Nuff said. And if you say it was the car.... Sorry, no.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Yes I think they are unbeatable. RBR for some reason are not able to beat their last year qualifying times :? I actually was optimistic for RBR this year but they have also gone backwards this year and Mercedes have done even better job. So the difference between them and rest is looking even big. RBR do improve their package mid season so hopefully RBR can win again but they need to be lucky. Mercedes is lapping pretty much everyone and I think they can go even faster if they have too. They will probably win both the titles next year as well.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Invade »

Was the end of 2020 a false dawn just like in 2018 or 2019?

Or in 2021 will Mercedes still be unbeatable...


Hamilton just needs to slip a bit and I think things could get very interesting.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by babararacucudada »

Wolff deciding to keep the same driver pairing for 2021 would suggest that he is confident Mercedes will maintain enough of an advantage with the car to win the 2 Championships easily again in 2021.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Mort Canard »

If Lewis can get back to his pre-covid-19 form by March 21, I don't see anyone out there who will have much for him. Aside from his post-covid funk in Abu Dhabi I don't see him showing any significant signs of slipping.

RBR's pairing of Max & Checo could be a potent combination and could cause the Merc strategists some headaches for scheduling pit stops, but I think that will likely affect Valtteri more than it will Lewis. Merc may have to compromise Valtteri's race strategy more often than in the last couple of years.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Rotax Max 125 »

In this current era yes. Maybe in 2022 things may change as we have seen in the past.

At the moment they consistently have the desire to keep winning, improve on themselves, keep learning and make very little mistakes and of course have the best driver. This is why they are unbeatable on my opinion

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

The turbo hybrid era has certainly been tough for Mercedes rivals. Ferrari and Red Bull have 17 wins each over these 7 seasons. There have only been two seasons in that period where it even looked remotely likely that we could see a non Merc world champion.

Before this era, Ferrari had 20 consecutive seasons where they were race winners at least once. We might well end 2021 with them being winless in 4 out of 8 seasons in the era.

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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Schermerhorn »

It will take a big rule change to stop Mercedes. On the power unit side there are little gains to be had now, given the rule stabilisation over so many years. So I'm guessing someone making some type of aero breakthrough will be the deciding factor.

I pick Red Bull from 2022 onwards to nail the aero regulations like they did with the blown diffuser era.
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by KingVoid »

Brundle doesn’t think that either Mercedes or Hamilton are slowing down anytime soon. In fact, he predicts Hamilton to retire with 10 world titles:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... ip-record/

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Covalent
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Covalent »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:49 am
Brundle doesn’t think that either Mercedes or Hamilton are slowing down anytime soon. In fact, he predicts Hamilton to retire with 10 world titles:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... ip-record/
Good times for F1.
[/sarcasm]

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Schermerhorn
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Re: Is Mercedes unbeatable?

Post by Schermerhorn »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:49 am
Brundle doesn’t think that either Mercedes or Hamilton are slowing down anytime soon. In fact, he predicts Hamilton to retire with 10 world titles:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... ip-record/
With such a car advantage and lack of internal/external competition I wouldn't be surprised.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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