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Notwithstanding all cars suffered extreme tyre wear whats the chance that DAS particularly with the safety car restarts tipped the Mercs over the edge?

I think you should consider changing the title, you are posing a question while the title reads as if it was confirmed that it caused the failures.

Otherwise, no idea!

I have changed the title as the original one implied a source, rather than a question.

I would lie if I claimed the thought hadn't entered my mind at some point.

Jaicey wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:42 am

Notwithstanding all cars suffered extreme tyre wear whats the chance that DAS particularly with the safety car restarts tipped the Mercs over the edge?

Interesting theory. I was leaning on the opinion that Mercedes, having the best downforce, would have inflicted more pressure on the tyres than other teams. Have no idea though.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:23 am

Jaicey wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:42 am

Notwithstanding all cars suffered extreme tyre wear whats the chance that DAS particularly with the safety car restarts tipped the Mercs over the edge?

Interesting theory. I was leaning on the opinion that Mercedes, having the best downforce, would have inflicted more pressure on the tyres than other teams. Have no idea though.

I’ve seen/heard this suggested elsewhere. Possibly on the BBC podcast but not 100% sure on that.

I’ve also heard discussions on whether DAS could have caused it. The overwhelming answer to that seemed to be no. That of course doesn’t mean they’re correct.

It possibly could have contributed, but given Sainz had a failure at the same time it seems to be a wider issue. Debris or something exposed around the removed kerb seems the most likely.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:23 am

Jaicey wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:42 am

Notwithstanding all cars suffered extreme tyre wear whats the chance that DAS particularly with the safety car restarts tipped the Mercs over the edge?

Interesting theory. I was leaning on the opinion that Mercedes, having the best downforce, would have inflicted more pressure on the tyres than other teams. Have no idea though.

That would be my thoughts as well but let's not forget it was not only Merecedes, perhaps a nice theory in order to try and get it banned though bearing in mind the thread title had to be changed.

I've been under the assumption that DAS would be kinder to the tyres, so would be quite the opposite of a contributory factor. Am I mistaken in this?

It might be as simple as Bottas suggested: that they (Mercedes) are too fast.

No.

Sainz's McLaren suffered the EXACT same fate in the exact same way and they don't have DAS on their car.
Looking at the footage closely, this is similar to how the world trade towers collapsed.

Heat eventually weakened the structural makeup of the tire until it de-laminated and imploded. Nothing more nothing less.
Pirelli once again prove themselves to make a not so good tire. The irony is that back a few years ago when the de-lamination issues were extremely prevalent, the track where the most atrocious failures occurred was also Silverstone. Silverstone is a real track where the limits of adhesion are tested most at the very limit and it seems to be the ultimate test for durability and Pirelli's product cannot handle it.

I say bring back Bridgestone and Michelin and resume tire wars with a far superior product that affords drivers the ability to push their car to the true limit as opposed to the limit the tires limit them to.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:55 pm

No.

Sainz's McLaren suffered the EXACT same fate in the exact same way and they don't have DAS on their car.
Looking at the footage closely, this is similar to how the world trade towers collapsed.

Heat eventually weakened the structural makeup of the tire until it de-laminated and imploded. Nothing more nothing less.
Pirelli once again prove themselves to make a not so good tire. The irony is that back a few years ago when the de-lamination issues were extremely prevalent, the track where the most atrocious failures occurred was also Silverstone. Silverstone is a real track where the limits of adhesion are tested most at the very limit and it seems to be the ultimate test for durability and Pirelli's product cannot handle it.

I say bring back Bridgestone and Michelin and resume tire wars with a far superior product that affords drivers the ability to push their car to the true limit as opposed to the limit the tires limit them to.

You may be correct in your suggestion that Pirelli is not up to the job but I suggest you also look at the Pirelli Press Release which came out a few hours ago. You can find it at https://press.pirelli.com/pirelli-press-release-0/

I am not implying that one should accept the company's analysis uncritically, but in my view their reasoning does tend to make some sense.

It might also be reasonable to consider that in the current era, the tire supplier lacks the ability to test that, say, Bridgestone and Michelin had in years gone by.

I am not attempting to defend Pirelli but I am saying that the situation has a deal of complexity that may not be apparent from watching the race on television.

Huw wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:27 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:55 pm

No.

Sainz's McLaren suffered the EXACT same fate in the exact same way and they don't have DAS on their car.
Looking at the footage closely, this is similar to how the world trade towers collapsed.

Heat eventually weakened the structural makeup of the tire until it de-laminated and imploded. Nothing more nothing less.
Pirelli once again prove themselves to make a not so good tire. The irony is that back a few years ago when the de-lamination issues were extremely prevalent, the track where the most atrocious failures occurred was also Silverstone. Silverstone is a real track where the limits of adhesion are tested most at the very limit and it seems to be the ultimate test for durability and Pirelli's product cannot handle it.

I say bring back Bridgestone and Michelin and resume tire wars with a far superior product that affords drivers the ability to push their car to the true limit as opposed to the limit the tires limit them to.

You may be correct in your suggestion that Pirelli is not up to the job but I suggest you also look at the Pirelli Press Release which came out a few hours ago. You can find it at https://press.pirelli.com/pirelli-press-release-0/

I am not implying that one should accept the company's analysis uncritically, but in my view their reasoning does tend to make some sense.

It might also be reasonable to consider that in the current era, the tire supplier lacks the ability to test that, say, Bridgestone and Michelin had in years gone by.

I am not attempting to defend Pirelli but I am saying that the situation has a deal of complexity that may not be apparent from watching the race on television.

You'd expect a press release would be accurate in its statements. Stating that the tyres lasted around 40 laps is just misinformation. Bottas' tyres lasted like 32 laps when racing.

Edit: Just noticed Lojik beat me to it in the other thread. Fully agree.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:55 pm

You'd expect a press release would be accurate in its statements. Stating that the tyres lasted around 40 laps is just misinformation. Bottas' tyres lasted like 32 laps when racing.

The Press Release said, inter alia: "The second safety car period prompted nearly all the teams to anticipate their planned pit stop and so carry out a particularly long final stint: around 40 laps..."

Ricciardo, Norris, Ocon, Gasly, Vettel, Giovinazzi, Russell and Latifi covered 40 laps in their second stint and Hamilton, Leclerc and Stroll did 39 laps.

Thus, the statement by Pirelli, quoted above, is correct.

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:32 pm

I've been under the assumption that DAS would be kinder to the tyres, so would be quite the opposite of a contributory factor. Am I mistaken in this?

A few points

I thought a major benefit of DAS in racing conditions was warming tyres better at low speeds so quali warm up and restarts ...implying putting more energy through them..... True Mercs were two of the fastest cars but still statistically notable both their cars had the tyre failures

40 laps was in the ball park of anticipated use....

Last point how are those graphics showing tyre wear generated? Sensors or just guesses based on number of laps or looking at tyres after pitstops?

Jaicey wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:15 am

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:32 pm

I've been under the assumption that DAS would be kinder to the tyres, so would be quite the opposite of a contributory factor. Am I mistaken in this?

A few points

I thought a major benefit of DAS in racing conditions was warming tyres better at low speeds so quali warm up and restarts ...implying putting more energy through them..... True Mercs were two of the fastest cars but still statistically notable both their cars had the tyre failures...

Agreed, but I was also under the impression that the ability to adjust the toe during the race would prolong tyre life (I won't go into the supposed aero benefits!).

Huw wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:46 am

The Press Release said, inter alia: "The second safety car period prompted nearly all the teams to anticipate their planned pit stop and so carry out a particularly long final stint: around 40 laps..."

Ricciardo, Norris, Ocon, Gasly, Vettel, Giovinazzi, Russell and Latifi covered 40 laps in their second stint and Hamilton, Leclerc and Stroll did 39 laps.

Thus, the statement by Pirelli, quoted above, is correct.

Nah, I'm not having that.

"The key reason [for the cause of the failures] is down to a set of individual race circumstances that led to an extremely long use of the second set of tyres... carry out a particularly long final stint: around 40 laps"

Defending their claim, you are implying that all cars that covered 40 laps were instrumental in the three incidents of tyre failures. If 'around' means +/- 20%, then fair enough. But the term 'around' would generally mean +/- 5%, which wasn't the case here. Pirelli tyres started failing after 32 laps of racing, and yet again show that they are not good enough for F1.

I don't think its an unreasonable request to produce tyres that degrade to the point of them being utterly unsuitable for any kind of decent race pace long before the actual construction of the tyre is compromised. All 3 cars with front left failure were still lapping at a perfectly good pace right up to the point of failure, and given that Mercedes would have been pouring over the data for Hamilton even more carefully after Bottas' failure and still failed to spot something that warranted calling him in, that would suggest sudden and instant failure of the construction of the tyre, and that simply isn't good enough in top level motorsport.

Admittedly Pirelli are asked to produce these types of tyres by the FIA (hi deg) but the manner in which Pirelli are acheiving that right now appears to be plain dangerous. The teams are already asked to dance around certain pressures and camber angles to keep the tyres in one piece and even with that mothering they still aren't lasting the pescribed distance - the excuse that the forces seen on the tyres at the weekend were the highest ever just smells of a lack of preperation.

James Vowels has categorically ruled out DAS being a factor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OsiYpRoUl6c (at the end)

Huw wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:27 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:55 pm

No.

Sainz's McLaren suffered the EXACT same fate in the exact same way and they don't have DAS on their car.
Looking at the footage closely, this is similar to how the world trade towers collapsed.

Heat eventually weakened the structural makeup of the tire until it de-laminated and imploded. Nothing more nothing less.
Pirelli once again prove themselves to make a not so good tire. The irony is that back a few years ago when the de-lamination issues were extremely prevalent, the track where the most atrocious failures occurred was also Silverstone. Silverstone is a real track where the limits of adhesion are tested most at the very limit and it seems to be the ultimate test for durability and Pirelli's product cannot handle it.

I say bring back Bridgestone and Michelin and resume tire wars with a far superior product that affords drivers the ability to push their car to the true limit as opposed to the limit the tires limit them to.

You may be correct in your suggestion that Pirelli is not up to the job but I suggest you also look at the Pirelli Press Release which came out a few hours ago. You can find it at https://press.pirelli.com/pirelli-press-release-0/

I am not implying that one should accept the company's analysis uncritically, but in my view their reasoning does tend to make some sense.

It might also be reasonable to consider that in the current era, the tire supplier lacks the ability to test that, say, Bridgestone and Michelin had in years gone by.

I am not attempting to defend Pirelli but I am saying that the situation has a deal of complexity that may not be apparent from watching the race on television.

I read that and in the immortal words of James Hunt on a live broadcast… That is total B…Sh…!
Pirelli have been the sole supplier of the sport for 8 YEARS now, not months. They have countless droves of data from all the teams and the mere fact is that they are inept. It's time they quit hiding behind the guise that they build tires according to what's asked of them because that poor excuse is long in the tooth an tired already.

They need to engineer a better, stronger, more resilient base structure to their tires so they no longer fall apart. They should only explode if and when the tread is completely worn through, at which point there is simply not enough material left for them to hold air. Then it's perfectly understandable for a tire to explode, but not before then with such regularity.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:47 pm

Huw wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:27 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:55 pm

No.

Sainz's McLaren suffered the EXACT same fate in the exact same way and they don't have DAS on their car.
Looking at the footage closely, this is similar to how the world trade towers collapsed.

Heat eventually weakened the structural makeup of the tire until it de-laminated and imploded. Nothing more nothing less.
Pirelli once again prove themselves to make a not so good tire. The irony is that back a few years ago when the de-lamination issues were extremely prevalent, the track where the most atrocious failures occurred was also Silverstone. Silverstone is a real track where the limits of adhesion are tested most at the very limit and it seems to be the ultimate test for durability and Pirelli's product cannot handle it.

I say bring back Bridgestone and Michelin and resume tire wars with a far superior product that affords drivers the ability to push their car to the true limit as opposed to the limit the tires limit them to.

You may be correct in your suggestion that Pirelli is not up to the job but I suggest you also look at the Pirelli Press Release which came out a few hours ago. You can find it at https://press.pirelli.com/pirelli-press-release-0/

I am not implying that one should accept the company's analysis uncritically, but in my view their reasoning does tend to make some sense.

It might also be reasonable to consider that in the current era, the tire supplier lacks the ability to test that, say, Bridgestone and Michelin had in years gone by.

I am not attempting to defend Pirelli but I am saying that the situation has a deal of complexity that may not be apparent from watching the race on television.

I read that and in the immortal words of James Hunt on a live broadcast… That is total B…Sh…!
Pirelli have been the sole supplier of the sport for 8 YEARS now, not months. They have countless droves of data from all the teams and the mere fact is that they are inept. It's time they quit hiding behind the guise that they build tires according to what's asked of them because that poor excuse is long in the tooth an tired already.

They need to engineer a better, stronger, more resilient base structure to their tires so they no longer fall apart. They should only explode if and when the tread is completely worn through, at which point there is simply not enough material left for them to hold air. Then it's perfectly understandable for a tire to explode, but not before then with such regularity.

But then the racing would be boring. Are all the teams sticking to the recommended tyre pressures these days?