2020 Season - Driver Ratings

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Invade
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2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

Marklar is once again collating driver ratings from what he sees as the more major and important publications or websites...

Image

Of course, there are also ratings given here at PlanetF1 and plenty of other ratings from other websites which we could average out, and we can also discuss our own ratings.

Last year, on the whole Hamilton had a slight edge on Verstappen for top spot, but the mass fanbase which is probably best accounted for on F1 Hot or Not and for awards like the official F1 Driver of the Day had a preference for Verstappen. Here I tend to have a greater respect for the ratings from journalists and so on than the average follower but this isn't always the case - for example, when it comes to game scores on metacritic.

So anyway, there ya go.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Steve_muzzy »

thanks for posting. V interesting.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

Image

Credit: Marklar

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

Do you agree or disagree with Edd Straw's rating for the British GP?

https://the-race.com/formula-1/edd-stra ... er-debate/

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by JN23 »

@Invade - how do these ratings work?

are the columns for AS/AMUS/Sky/The Race average ratings for the season so far and the individual races average ratings from those races?

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

Yeah, those columns are the driver ratings averaged out for the season so far from those publications, and the overall is those 4 AS/AMUS/Sky/The Race scores averaged out. The scores for individual races are the average score of those publications for that particular race. The 2019 columns represent the overall score the driver achieved in 2019 and how much better or worse they're doing in 2020.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

Image

((Credit to Marklar, a legend on another webspace - as per usual.))


I think Leclerc is already very close to the level of Hamilton and Verstappen with the (admittedly very significant) differentiator being that he throws in more catastrophically duff weekends. He doesn't yet have their consistency, though we might give him some leeway for pushing beyond the call of duty for results in a difficult car. We can't completely absolve him of blame though - he's still a work in progress. But in terms of peak performance and regularity of producing it he's pretty much there and just needs to eradicate his bloopers and develop slightly more consistent race pace. He's in the process of making Vettel look ordinary. We could say that Vettel is having a weak season and isn't the force he was, but a lot of this perception is also down to the raw ability and speed of Charles Leclerc.

The average qualifying gap between Leclerc and Vettel this season is ~0.4s. That's ridiculous when you consider Vettel's pedigree.

When establishing value of the drivers based on peak performance only 4 really stand out and that's: Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc.



***
EDIT


I do find it quite amusing that Autosport have Gasly in league with Verstappen and Hamilton. I don't find this to be a sober outlook.

What of the treatment of Vettel in these rankings? Not quite as damning and undermining as F1Metric's Bottas score for 2018, perhaps.
Last edited by Invade on Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

Image

F1's official Power Rankings...

Not yet updated though since the Tuscan GP.

(PS, what a charming tower of heads. x( )

Edit:

Looking at 2019, media rankings have Lewis ahead of Max, and fan voting has Max ahead of Lewis. I trust myself more than either, but I'm sure Lewis Hamilton fatigue factors in quite significantly in the fan voting. On F1 HOT or NOT, after the season ends there's an additional final vote from the fans on best driver of the year. Cumulatively throughout the season a natural Max bias rampantly ensues and the randomly large proportion of duff scores given to Hamilton even on good weekends from the "haters" does a fair job in slightly skewing the scores*, but then when it comes down to the new fresh vote which disregards the cumulative race-by-race scoring, Hamilton wins the fan vote. Most — (actually all I've come across thus far) — cumulative fan voting for power rankings etc. which I've come across for 2019 has Max ahead of Lewis.

Cumulative: https://www.f1hotornot.com/polls/F1/2019/ABU/results
One-off final judgement end of season vote: https://www.f1hotornot.com/polls/F1/2019/YEAR/results

Basically, it's very difficult to split Hamilton and Verstappen over 2019-2020.

*This can be clearly noted when looking through the voting distribution on a race-by-race basis so it's well backed-up conjecture and it's something perhaps far more profoundly demonstrated when tallying official DOTD accolades over the last few seasons.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Exediron »

The Gasly hype is out of control on some of these rankings. A lot of people seem to be rating him as if he'd won the Italian GP under equal circumstances, when in fact he wouldn't have been in contention for even a podium if the race had run normally.

He's been pretty good this year, but certainly not top-three material.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Mort Canard »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:26 pm
The Gasly hype is out of control on some of these rankings. A lot of people seem to be rating him as if he'd won the Italian GP under equal circumstances, when in fact he wouldn't have been in contention for even a podium if the race had run normally.

He's been pretty good this year, but certainly not top-three material.

(and I can't unsee the tower of heads now that you've mentioned it...)
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by tootsie323 »

Invade wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:07 pm
... I think Leclerc is already very close to the level of Hamilton and Verstappen with the (admittedly very significant) differentiator being that he throws in more catastrophically duff weekends. He doesn't yet have their consistency, though we might give him some leeway for pushing beyond the call of duty for results in a difficult car. We can't completely absolve him of blame though - he's still a work in progress. But in terms of peak performance and regularity of producing it he's pretty much there and just needs to eradicate his bloopers and develop slightly more consistent race pace. He's in the process of making Vettel look ordinary. We could say that Vettel is having a weak season and isn't the force he was, but a lot of this perception is also down to the raw ability and speed of Charles Leclerc...
Good point. 2020 Leclerc is a bit like 2017 Verstappen - the raw pace is certainly there but there is a tendency to be involved in potentially (or actual) race-ending incidents. along with Verstappen, Leclerc is certainly a (car dependent!) WDC in the making.
Alongside these, it's interesting to see who else may emerge as a contender. Ricciardo must be considered and I'd also argue the case for Russell. As much as I've been impressed by Norris, I'm not sure that he is in that bracket.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:22 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:07 pm
... I think Leclerc is already very close to the level of Hamilton and Verstappen with the (admittedly very significant) differentiator being that he throws in more catastrophically duff weekends. He doesn't yet have their consistency, though we might give him some leeway for pushing beyond the call of duty for results in a difficult car. We can't completely absolve him of blame though - he's still a work in progress. But in terms of peak performance and regularity of producing it he's pretty much there and just needs to eradicate his bloopers and develop slightly more consistent race pace. He's in the process of making Vettel look ordinary. We could say that Vettel is having a weak season and isn't the force he was, but a lot of this perception is also down to the raw ability and speed of Charles Leclerc...
Good point. 2020 Leclerc is a bit like 2017 Verstappen - the raw pace is certainly there but there is a tendency to be involved in potentially (or actual) race-ending incidents. along with Verstappen, Leclerc is certainly a (car dependent!) WDC in the making.
Alongside these, it's interesting to see who else may emerge as a contender. Ricciardo must be considered and I'd also argue the case for Russell. As much as I've been impressed by Norris, I'm not sure that he is in that bracket.
Norris needs to gap Sainz but he seems unable to do it.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Badgeronimous »

I always take driver ratings with a pinch of salt as the car influences them so much.

Whilst ultimately the order isn't that different from how I'd rate them, you only get good mark's for a lesser team if you do something outstanding.

A solid job is only ever a 6/10 in the lower midfield, wheres it's an 8/10 at the front. For Hamilton or Bottas to get a 6 in most publications, they'd actually have to be disappointing.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by WHoff78 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:58 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:22 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:07 pm
... I think Leclerc is already very close to the level of Hamilton and Verstappen with the (admittedly very significant) differentiator being that he throws in more catastrophically duff weekends. He doesn't yet have their consistency, though we might give him some leeway for pushing beyond the call of duty for results in a difficult car. We can't completely absolve him of blame though - he's still a work in progress. But in terms of peak performance and regularity of producing it he's pretty much there and just needs to eradicate his bloopers and develop slightly more consistent race pace. He's in the process of making Vettel look ordinary. We could say that Vettel is having a weak season and isn't the force he was, but a lot of this perception is also down to the raw ability and speed of Charles Leclerc...
Good point. 2020 Leclerc is a bit like 2017 Verstappen - the raw pace is certainly there but there is a tendency to be involved in potentially (or actual) race-ending incidents. along with Verstappen, Leclerc is certainly a (car dependent!) WDC in the making.
Alongside these, it's interesting to see who else may emerge as a contender. Ricciardo must be considered and I'd also argue the case for Russell. As much as I've been impressed by Norris, I'm not sure that he is in that bracket.
Norris needs to gap Sainz but he seems unable to do it.
Norris does have 50% more points though, but I tend to agree. Sainz has picked up since the start of the season, but I do wonder if some of the difference between these drivers is the level of risk, and how much they are pushing the limitations of the car - tyre/brake temps etc. Perhaps I am overly optimistic. Norris seems to be quite conservative, but he is getting the results so far. He has even acknowledged that there have been times he perhaps should've taken more risk. Something to keep an eye on.

Plus he is still a couple of years younger than LeClerc and Russel so has time on his side.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:21 pm
I always take driver ratings with a pinch of salt as the car influences them so much.

Whilst ultimately the order isn't that different from how I'd rate them, you only get good mark's for a lesser team if you do something outstanding.

A solid job is only ever a 6/10 in the lower midfield, wheres it's an 8/10 at the front. For Hamilton or Bottas to get a 6 in most publications, they'd actually have to be disappointing.
I would question that, Hamilton won the race with pole and fastest lap but didn't quite score a 9, so that's seen as little more than doing a solid job. But having said that I do find the ratings to be often baffling.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:33 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:21 pm
I always take driver ratings with a pinch of salt as the car influences them so much.

Whilst ultimately the order isn't that different from how I'd rate them, you only get good mark's for a lesser team if you do something outstanding.

A solid job is only ever a 6/10 in the lower midfield, wheres it's an 8/10 at the front. For Hamilton or Bottas to get a 6 in most publications, they'd actually have to be disappointing.
I would question that, Hamilton won the race with pole and fastest lap but didn't quite score a 9, so that's seen as little more than doing a solid job. But having said that I do find the ratings to be often baffling.
That's because it was only slightly more than a solid job. That's the problem. If you're in the midfield and you barely out-qualify your teammate (less than a tenth of a second), get beaten by him at the first start and then finish one position ahead of him at the end, nobody would consider that an impressive line.

It's viewed differently at the front, because with no competition there's no way to know if Hamilton actually performed well. All we know is he performed better than Bottas.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:33 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:21 pm
I always take driver ratings with a pinch of salt as the car influences them so much.

Whilst ultimately the order isn't that different from how I'd rate them, you only get good mark's for a lesser team if you do something outstanding.

A solid job is only ever a 6/10 in the lower midfield, wheres it's an 8/10 at the front. For Hamilton or Bottas to get a 6 in most publications, they'd actually have to be disappointing.
I would question that, Hamilton won the race with pole and fastest lap but didn't quite score a 9, so that's seen as little more than doing a solid job. But having said that I do find the ratings to be often baffling.
That's because it was only slightly more than a solid job. That's the problem. If you're in the midfield and you barely out-qualify your teammate (less than a tenth of a second), get beaten by him at the first start and then finish one position ahead of him at the end, nobody would consider that an impressive line.

It's viewed differently at the front, because with no competition there's no way to know if Hamilton actually performed well. All we know is he performed better than Bottas.
So you get down marked for getting beaten off the line, I'm sure that Verstappen didn't get down marked in Austria last year when he dropped from 2nd to 7th because he then went on to win the race.

I would say that midfield drivers are in midfield cars mainly for a reason but we can say they performed better because they beat some other midfield drivers, Bottas only gets a good score if he can beat Hamilton.

Nevertheless it's quite interesting to see how the drivers are getting scored even though like I say at times I find the scoring to be a bit baffling.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:28 am
I would say that midfield drivers are in midfield cars mainly for a reason but we can say they performed better because they beat some other midfield drivers, Bottas only gets a good score if he can beat Hamilton.
Yeah, and that reason is because there are only 2 top cars available, and you can only fit 2 drivers into them. There's nothing behind Mercedes except midfield this year -- they are the only top team.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:24 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:28 am
I would say that midfield drivers are in midfield cars mainly for a reason but we can say they performed better because they beat some other midfield drivers, Bottas only gets a good score if he can beat Hamilton.
Yeah, and that reason is because there are only 2 top cars available, and you can only fit 2 drivers into them. There's nothing behind Mercedes except midfield this year -- they are the only top team.
Which proves my point that they get down marked for that whereas it was said that only lower midfield drivers get down marked, Bottas sits 9th in the standings despite a win and 6 podiums, Russell who hasn't even got a point sits 8th in the rankings yet it's weighted towards drivers in better cars?
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:47 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:24 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:28 am
I would say that midfield drivers are in midfield cars mainly for a reason but we can say they performed better because they beat some other midfield drivers, Bottas only gets a good score if he can beat Hamilton.
Yeah, and that reason is because there are only 2 top cars available, and you can only fit 2 drivers into them. There's nothing behind Mercedes except midfield this year -- they are the only top team.
Which proves my point that they get down marked for that whereas it was said that only lower midfield drivers get down marked, Bottas sits 9th in the standings despite a win and 6 podiums, Russell who hasn't even got a point sits 8th in the rankings yet it's weighted towards drivers in better cars?
Weighted toward drivers putting in good performances in better cars. That's clearly obvious.

Had Hamilton lost out to Gasly at the first start, overtook him on the 2nd and finished just one place higher in the minor points he wouldn't be getting a score in the 8 or 9s.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Rockie »

The problem with driver ratings is its based on perception, case in point Bottas V Leclerc, how has he scored more than Bottas I can't see any measure where he was better than Bottas he went backwards all race and without the red flag would have needed an extra pitstop compared to every other runner as he was chewing through his tyres.

But somehow has performed better than Bottas.

Hamilton should be getting a 9.8 atleast as his only mistake was being slow of the line and he made amends for, Verstappen went backwards and crashed out but still scored better than drivers that actually finished the race tells you all you need to know.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:47 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:24 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:28 am
I would say that midfield drivers are in midfield cars mainly for a reason but we can say they performed better because they beat some other midfield drivers, Bottas only gets a good score if he can beat Hamilton.
Yeah, and that reason is because there are only 2 top cars available, and you can only fit 2 drivers into them. There's nothing behind Mercedes except midfield this year -- they are the only top team.
Which proves my point that they get down marked for that whereas it was said that only lower midfield drivers get down marked, Bottas sits 9th in the standings despite a win and 6 podiums, Russell who hasn't even got a point sits 8th in the rankings yet it's weighted towards drivers in better cars?
Weighted toward drivers putting in good performances in better cars. That's clearly obvious.

Had Hamilton lost out to Gasly at the first start, overtook him on the 2nd and finished just one place higher in the minor points he wouldn't be getting a score in the 8 or 9s.
As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:47 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:24 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:28 am
I would say that midfield drivers are in midfield cars mainly for a reason but we can say they performed better because they beat some other midfield drivers, Bottas only gets a good score if he can beat Hamilton.
Yeah, and that reason is because there are only 2 top cars available, and you can only fit 2 drivers into them. There's nothing behind Mercedes except midfield this year -- they are the only top team.
Which proves my point that they get down marked for that whereas it was said that only lower midfield drivers get down marked, Bottas sits 9th in the standings despite a win and 6 podiums, Russell who hasn't even got a point sits 8th in the rankings yet it's weighted towards drivers in better cars?
Weighted toward drivers putting in good performances in better cars. That's clearly obvious.

Had Hamilton lost out to Gasly at the first start, overtook him on the 2nd and finished just one place higher in the minor points he wouldn't be getting a score in the 8 or 9s.
As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:48 pm
The problem with driver ratings is its based on perception, case in point Bottas V Leclerc, how has he scored more than Bottas I can't see any measure where he was better than Bottas he went backwards all race and without the red flag would have needed an extra pitstop compared to every other runner as he was chewing through his tyres.

But somehow has performed better than Bottas.

Hamilton should be getting a 9.8 atleast as his only mistake was being slow of the line and he made amends for, Verstappen went backwards and crashed out but still scored better than drivers that actually finished the race tells you all you need to know.
I'm a bit taken aback by your post in a good way. :thumbup:

I feel that generally speaking Bottas gets down marked by being slower than Hamilton and then last time out the race would be seen as being too easy for Hanilton, getting beat off the start is a down mark but that actually makes it harder for him to win the race and no up marks for making 2 good starts after that.

Then conversly Verstappen scored just slightly less than Hamilton despite not completing a lap, granted it wasn't his fault, but he's still clearly scored to a point on how good he is perceived which I would say was kind of not the case for Hamilton last time out at least.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:47 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:24 am


Yeah, and that reason is because there are only 2 top cars available, and you can only fit 2 drivers into them. There's nothing behind Mercedes except midfield this year -- they are the only top team.
Which proves my point that they get down marked for that whereas it was said that only lower midfield drivers get down marked, Bottas sits 9th in the standings despite a win and 6 podiums, Russell who hasn't even got a point sits 8th in the rankings yet it's weighted towards drivers in better cars?
Weighted toward drivers putting in good performances in better cars. That's clearly obvious.

Had Hamilton lost out to Gasly at the first start, overtook him on the 2nd and finished just one place higher in the minor points he wouldn't be getting a score in the 8 or 9s.
As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:47 pm

Which proves my point that they get down marked for that whereas it was said that only lower midfield drivers get down marked, Bottas sits 9th in the standings despite a win and 6 podiums, Russell who hasn't even got a point sits 8th in the rankings yet it's weighted towards drivers in better cars?
Weighted toward drivers putting in good performances in better cars. That's clearly obvious.

Had Hamilton lost out to Gasly at the first start, overtook him on the 2nd and finished just one place higher in the minor points he wouldn't be getting a score in the 8 or 9s.
As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.

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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:57 pm


Weighted toward drivers putting in good performances in better cars. That's clearly obvious.

Had Hamilton lost out to Gasly at the first start, overtook him on the 2nd and finished just one place higher in the minor points he wouldn't be getting a score in the 8 or 9s.
As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
I really can't understand this, especially at a weekend where Hamilton beat Bottas only just in qualifying.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by mikeyg123 »

Spoiler (click to show)
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm

As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
I really can't understand this, especially at a weekend where Hamilton beat Bottas only just in qualifying.
I'm speaking from a factual basis. Give me some facts to show narrowly losing to Hamilton is better than thrashing latiffi or comfortably beating Ocon etc.

Schumacher forever#1
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:14 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:48 pm
The problem with driver ratings is its based on perception, case in point Bottas V Leclerc, how has he scored more than Bottas I can't see any measure where he was better than Bottas he went backwards all race and without the red flag would have needed an extra pitstop compared to every other runner as he was chewing through his tyres.

But somehow has performed better than Bottas.

Hamilton should be getting a 9.8 atleast as his only mistake was being slow of the line and he made amends for, Verstappen went backwards and crashed out but still scored better than drivers that actually finished the race tells you all you need to know.
I'm a bit taken aback by your post in a good way. :thumbup:

I feel that generally speaking Bottas gets down marked by being slower than Hamilton and then last time out the race would be seen as being too easy for Hanilton, getting beat off the start is a down mark but that actually makes it harder for him to win the race and no up marks for making 2 good starts after that.

Then conversly Verstappen scored just slightly less than Hamilton despite not completing a lap, granted it wasn't his fault, but he's still clearly scored to a point on how good he is perceived which I would say was kind of not the case for Hamilton last time out at least.
Bottas once again failed to take advantage of a situation. He showed pace this weekend, only to get beaten by Hamilton in the crunch time in Q3. He then lucked into first place with a poor start from Hamilton, only to lose his position once again on the restart. He showed little aggression and racecraft when it mattered, and ultimately finished where any F1 driver on the grid would have expected to have finished.

Leclerc has been far better in comparison in my books.

I think it's fair that Verstappen got marked in such a way. When a driver doesn't get a chance to prove themselves, maybe a score close to their average is desired because his overall ranking will not get skewed.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
... against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
You've just nicely demonstrated how having a better car creates a bias in ratings. Bottas' win and podiums are purely a reflection of the car he's in, nothing else. I am 100% confident in saying that if there was a decent driver in the second Mercedes seat and Bottas was somewhere in the midfield, he would not have scored a single podium this year.

Results in F1 are 80% because of the car and 20% because of the driver (or worse). We all know this, so why try to use outright results -- instead of relative results -- to big up a driver? In relative terms, Bottas has lost to his teammate 2-7 this season (1-7 if you ignore the pitlane gaffe in Monza). That's simply not impressive, no matter who your teammate is.

The only way you can rate Bottas highly is if you believe Hamilton has a Marc Marquez-like dominance over the drivers in F1, and I do not. Before he was in the Mercedes, he was only one of the best -- and I believe that he still is only one of the best.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show)
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm


What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
I really can't understand this, especially at a weekend where Hamilton beat Bottas only just in qualifying.
I'm speaking from a factual basis. Give me some facts to show narrowly losing to Hamilton is better than thrashing latiffi or comfortably beating Ocon etc.
How exactly is this factual?

You are confusing opinion with facts, till all the other drivers get in the car and do better than Bottas it remains an opinon.

Leclerc beating Vettel is a fact, Verstappen beating Vettel is an opinion.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

In 2019 Bottas was one of the best drivers as far as I'm concerned, in what was a weak year for driver performance in general. In 2020 I have him middle of the pack. In 2018 he was perhaps lower end of a middle pack, and some argued he was one of the worst drivers on the grid (F1metrics had him 19th, which I'm sure also affected Hamilton's standing for the season and marginalised the work he did). Yet, judging by a number of driver ratings for 2018, Bottas often ranked ABOVE ALONSO, who we generally considered here at the time to have had a very strong season. So I think that's quite illustrative of how a reduction of elements in judgment isn't reflective of a perception of the importance of those elements; despite being aware of the importance of the car, bottomline results holds a huge sway over perception. This sort of fluctuation which I'm arguing for Bottas is not unusual for a very good but not quite great sports talent. Take any individual sport which is a purer meritocracy and you will see players with this sort of fluctuation of performance on a year-by-year basis. The only fan groups I've ever encountered as a prolific sports fanatic who place such fearsome rigidity onto the judgment and base levels of the athletes are those of motorsports, especially F1. The mistiness of performance in general in which we can never be quite sure of the hierarchy perhaps engenders an "anxiety" in which drivers are held to known metrics (absolute performance) and to a stable baseline of performance in which limited evidence is, ironically and counterintuitively, crystallised as near-fact.
Last edited by Invade on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
... against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
You've just nicely demonstrated how having a better car creates a bias in ratings. Bottas' win and podiums are purely a reflection of the car he's in, nothing else. I am 100% confident in saying that if there was a decent driver in the second Mercedes seat and Bottas was somewhere in the midfield, he would not have scored a single podium this year.

Results in F1 are 80% because of the car and 20% because of the driver (or worse). We all know this, so why try to use outright results -- instead of relative results -- to big up a driver? In relative terms, Bottas has lost to his teammate 2-7 this season (1-7 if you ignore the pitlane gaffe in Monza). That's simply not impressive, no matter who your teammate is.

The only way you can rate Bottas highly is if you believe Hamilton has a Marc Marquez-like dominance over the drivers in F1, and I do not. Before he was in the Mercedes, he was only one of the best -- and I believe that he still is only one of the best.
In 2019 and 2020 the vast majority are comparing Hamilton to Verstappen and have them in the top tier. In 2018 those who pay attention often suggested that Alonso was in the same ballpark. In 2017 many suggested Vettel wasn't too far away. IIRC many felt Ricciardo was the standout performer of 2016 and he also stood out in 2014 as well as Alonso. in 2015 Vettel put together a campaign that many considered was as good or better than Hamilton's especially with Ham's lull in performance after the newly mandated higher tyre pressures which led to Rosberg more or less outperforming him over the last... I dunno... 6-7 races of the season.

So yes, Hamilton has generally never been perceived to have any such Marc Marquez-like standing.

Though I do wonder why that is.

I wonder if Marquez is a freak or if the series is devoid of elite talents. Is Marquez a step up from Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen or is MotoGP without an equivalent of two of those three? Schumacher perhaps had Marquez-like dominance, and that makes sense given the context of his era and the dearth of elite top-top tier talent. I also generally make the assumption that F1 is more likely to attract generational talents than MotoGP though have no idea if this is actually the case. I assume many more people go karting than biking. Clearly, in relative terms according to the competition within series, Marquez's dominance is a rare sight.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:32 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show)
Rockie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm

He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
I really can't understand this, especially at a weekend where Hamilton beat Bottas only just in qualifying.
I'm speaking from a factual basis. Give me some facts to show narrowly losing to Hamilton is better than thrashing latiffi or comfortably beating Ocon etc.
How exactly is this factual?

You are confusing opinion with facts, till all the other drivers get in the car and do better than Bottas it remains an opinon.

Leclerc beating Vettel is a fact, Verstappen beating Vettel is an opinion.
If you read what I written you'd see that is basically what I'm saying with that statement with the clarification that IF you assume Hamilton is the best driver in F1 you can draw the conclusions I gave.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:57 pm


Weighted toward drivers putting in good performances in better cars. That's clearly obvious.

Had Hamilton lost out to Gasly at the first start, overtook him on the 2nd and finished just one place higher in the minor points he wouldn't be getting a score in the 8 or 9s.
As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
It's just like I said Bottas has to beat Hamilton for other drivers the standard is somewhat less.
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:33 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm

As obvious as Russell being above Bottas perhaps?

In that scenario Hamilton wouldn't score as high but then we seem to be wanting to create an unlikely scenario were Hamilton is hardly able to beat a driver that Verstappen crushed.
What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
It's just like I said Bottas has to beat Hamilton for other drivers the standard is somewhat less.
And at the same time a bad day at the office still sees him on the podium and getting a decent score.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
... against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
You've just nicely demonstrated how having a better car creates a bias in ratings. Bottas' win and podiums are purely a reflection of the car he's in, nothing else. I am 100% confident in saying that if there was a decent driver in the second Mercedes seat and Bottas was somewhere in the midfield, he would not have scored a single podium this year.

Results in F1 are 80% because of the car and 20% because of the driver (or worse). We all know this, so why try to use outright results -- instead of relative results -- to big up a driver? In relative terms, Bottas has lost to his teammate 2-7 this season (1-7 if you ignore the pitlane gaffe in Monza). That's simply not impressive, no matter who your teammate is.

The only way you can rate Bottas highly is if you believe Hamilton has a Marc Marquez-like dominance over the drivers in F1, and I do not. Before he was in the Mercedes, he was only one of the best -- and I believe that he still is only one of the best.
You totally missed what I've been saying, despite Bottas' results, Russell is ranked above him despite not having scored a single point and you're still telling me that it's weighted to drivers having better cars.
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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:33 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm


What's wrong with Russell being ahead of Bottas?
He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
It's just like I said Bottas has to beat Hamilton for other drivers the standard is somewhat less.
And at the same time a bad day at the office still sees him on the podium and getting a decent score.
He's 9th in the rankings so not really that decent, some drivers score more for top 6 or top 10 finishes,
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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

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Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:33 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm

He has Latifi as a teammate and I can't see what special he's been able to do in the races, he even trails Latifi in the WDC, against Bottas who has had a win and 6 podiums yet the ranking is supposedly weighted to drivers in better cars?
Bottas' position makes him hard to rate. Given his car he almost always achieves the very minimum acceptable result. On the face of it that's less than Russell. However in order to improve that he has to beat Hamilton which is very difficult. Given we can deduce very little regarding Bottas' performance over than it's not as good as Hamilton and if we accept Hamilton is the best driver in F1 then Bottas could reasonably be placed below anyone that is beating their team mate or above everyone but Hamilton.
It's just like I said Bottas has to beat Hamilton for other drivers the standard is somewhat less.
And at the same time a bad day at the office still sees him on the podium and getting a decent score.
He's 9th in the rankings so not really that decent, some drivers score more for top 6 or top 10 finishes,
Well yeah, for most on the grid a top 6 would be much more impressive than Bottas coming 2nd.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Season - Driver Ratings

Post by Invade »

I think it's not too hard to make good relative judgments even across teams providing performance between the cars allows for the driver to make the difference. It's when there are huge gaps in performance between cars where it becomes very difficult to say, for example, if Russell's drives over the last couple of years have been particularly strong or if he's failed to stand out in races (though we can still judge him according to Russell and Latifi to a degree). It becomes difficult also at the front to rate the lead drivers who enjoy a massive superiority in performance.

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