Lights and jump starts

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TheGiantHogweed
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Lights and jump starts

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Unlike many others, I am thinking I'm understanding most of the decisions on weather they penalise drivers for jump starts or not.

Something that I never see discussed by the media, on forums or anywhere is how the lights work. You may think they are such a basic thing that should be on or off, but when you go into more depth, it is not as simple as that. I happen to have worked for a company that works with and prepares lights for concerts and similar events so I do know a fair bit about how the different types function.

Now I will admit that I'm not 100% certain what type of lamps are generally used ahead of the track at the start, but they will almost certainly either be LED ore the more traditional incandescent style.
I may not be 100% correct here either and it may seem silly to some, but I am sure they will consider the drivers to be allowed to start when the lights have been switched off. What people don't seem to discuss is that there is almost always going to be a short delay between them being on and off. Especially with incandescents. Due to the fact they run so hot and the filaments inside glow, that simply can't slop glowing instantly. It will be a fraction of a second at least, and even on the slow motion replays, it likely won't be noticeable that they have been switched off initially. Due to how these lamps will all age differently, they also can have slightly different fading times, so this makes me even more doubtful that they will judge the race start to be when they have visually gone out - it will be when they have flicked the switch or the program for the pattern of the lights ends.

With modern LEDs (which I don't believe all tracks will yet use) sometimes can have a different effect. While LEDs are capable of instantly going off, if they are switched off at the mains power input (entirely possible), due to the tiny amount of power they use, the transformer inside will likely hold that little bit more which will result in a tiny delay.

A great deal of this may sound irrelevant as I haven't discussed the actual starts yet. Bottas is a driver that seems to have been on the limit with this many times (or passed it to many). And all 3 times he's done this, I do think he's been lucky to avoid a penalty. But any driver that puts in a risky start like this and doesn't break the limit should get away with it. I think they have been pretty consistent with this. Vettel got away with pretty much the same as Bottas in Japan last year. This time, I don't think Bottas did try to guess the start. He said he was looking at the lights on his wheel which sky showed were for some reason not in time with the over head ones. But as has been the case before with vettel; he moved and stopped and did not leave his starting box until after they had visually started fading. It was very close to going beyond it and you could question that he could have parked a little further up in the first place.

What annoys me is when people show replays in slow motion highlighting the lights and claiming it 100% proves that they jumped the start. Apparently in Austria 2017, Bottas's start reaction time to the lights was 0.201. I think I can understand peoples frustration here as on the replays, he certainly did move before they went out. But my main point is that I think a lot of this will likely be related to the time being judged from when they are switched off, not visually off. Again, this will start to seem a bit pointless, but to me it makes sense why they have a certain amount of tolerance. But it is all guesswork from the drivers and you can consider it lucky every time they get away with it.

I don't really know how a delay with the lights can easily be avoided and I don't know how fair it would be punish drivers just because they happened to have a lucky guess as any driver can do the same to a degree. From what I have noticed, drivers starting a bit earlier than Bottas or Vettel have in recent years have been punished, but there clearly was a difference with them.

To put it simply, I think the reasons behind this are partially the light delay and the sensors in the in the starting box. But I think the tolerance is acceptable.

It may be interesting to compare many of these jump starts (or suspected jump starts) over many years to see if there is consistency in the decisions.

wire2004
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by wire2004 »

When I read this and think about jump starts and if a driver jumped the start. I see the image of.charlie Whiting at the Chinese grand prix. (It may of been 2012) where he was pointing at Fernando Alonso because he visually jumped the start.

In my view. It should be black and white. If you moved before the lights went out you should be served with a jump start penalty. 10 seconds stop go was the penalty back in the 90s and early 2000s.
I remember back to 1995. I think it was Monaco. Where not 1. Not 2. But 6 drivers jumped the start. They had just got the transponders mandated to be on the cars at around imola time. And caused alot of pain for alot of drivers. Until they realised they can not move till the lights go out.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Ultimately any system should be calibrated to when the lights visibly stopped illuminating, plus human reaction time to account for residual charge in the transisters. Stewards ahould also be able to use video evidence. The sensors are clearly substandard as massa proved in Spa when he sat half a carlength forwards of his marks. Despite it being visually indefensible he didnt get a penalty because computer say ok.

Bottas has now twice jumped the start, it is ridiculous no penalties have been given.

mikeyg123
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by mikeyg123 »

It's very F1 to basically add a margin for error in something that should be black and white. I have thought for a long time now that the powers that be don't like black and white rules with set penalties for breaking them as it restricts their power to manipulate situations and help or hurt who they want at the right time.

The rule should be if you move before the lights go out it's a slam dunk penalty. Easy, simple and there is no debate.

mikeyg123
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Unlike many others, I am thinking I'm understanding most of the decisions on weather they penalise drivers for jump starts or not.

Something that I never see discussed by the media, on forums or anywhere is how the lights work. You may think they are such a basic thing that should be on or off, but when you go into more depth, it is not as simple as that. I happen to have worked for a company that works with and prepares lights for concerts and similar events so I do know a fair bit about how the different types function.

Now I will admit that I'm not 100% certain what type of lamps are generally used ahead of the track at the start, but they will almost certainly either be LED ore the more traditional incandescent style.
I may not be 100% correct here either and it may seem silly to some, but I am sure they will consider the drivers to be allowed to start when the lights have been switched off. What people don't seem to discuss is that there is almost always going to be a short delay between them being on and off. Especially with incandescents. Due to the fact they run so hot and the filaments inside glow, that simply can't slop glowing instantly. It will be a fraction of a second at least, and even on the slow motion replays, it likely won't be noticeable that they have been switched off initially. Due to how these lamps will all age differently, they also can have slightly different fading times, so this makes me even more doubtful that they will judge the race start to be when they have visually gone out - it will be when they have flicked the switch or the program for the pattern of the lights ends.

With modern LEDs (which I don't believe all tracks will yet use) sometimes can have a different effect. While LEDs are capable of instantly going off, if they are switched off at the mains power input (entirely possible), due to the tiny amount of power they use, the transformer inside will likely hold that little bit more which will result in a tiny delay.

A great deal of this may sound irrelevant as I haven't discussed the actual starts yet. Bottas is a driver that seems to have been on the limit with this many times (or passed it to many). And all 3 times he's done this, I do think he's been lucky to avoid a penalty. But any driver that puts in a risky start like this and doesn't break the limit should get away with it. I think they have been pretty consistent with this. Vettel got away with pretty much the same as Bottas in Japan last year. This time, I don't think Bottas did try to guess the start. He said he was looking at the lights on his wheel which sky showed were for some reason not in time with the over head ones. But as has been the case before with vettel; he moved and stopped and did not leave his starting box until after they had visually started fading. It was very close to going beyond it and you could question that he could have parked a little further up in the first place.

What annoys me is when people show replays in slow motion highlighting the lights and claiming it 100% proves that they jumped the start. Apparently in Austria 2017, Bottas's start reaction time to the lights was 0.201. I think I can understand peoples frustration here as on the replays, he certainly did move before they went out. But my main point is that I think a lot of this will likely be related to the time being judged from when they are switched off, not visually off. Again, this will start to seem a bit pointless, but to me it makes sense why they have a certain amount of tolerance. But it is all guesswork from the drivers and you can consider it lucky every time they get away with it.

I don't really know how a delay with the lights can easily be avoided and I don't know how fair it would be punish drivers just because they happened to have a lucky guess as any driver can do the same to a degree. From what I have noticed, drivers starting a bit earlier than Bottas or Vettel have in recent years have been punished, but there clearly was a difference with them.

To put it simply, I think the reasons behind this are partially the light delay and the sensors in the in the starting box. But I think the tolerance is acceptable.

It may be interesting to compare many of these jump starts (or suspected jump starts) over many years to see if there is consistency in the decisions.
The reason why a driver shouldn't get away with it is that it will obviously distract drivers around them and may cause them to fluff their own starts. It simply isn't fair and is too easily gammed.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

If drivers react on other drivers reacting, then that shows that they are also not paying attention... It may seem strange the current rules we have (as many are) but I see consistency here and I'm certain any driver will get away with it so long as they are within the limits.

Asphalt_World
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Asphalt_World »

Drivers are deemed to have jumped the lights if they react within a certain time of the lights going out. Bit like in athletics sprint races. The runner may go after the bang, but if it's within a humanly impossible time of the bang, it's a false start.

My guess and it's only a guess, is that the reaction time the drivers have to start after, include enough time for a quickly dimming light.
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by P-F1 Mod »

Seems odd given Maldonado got away with an inhuman reaction a few years ago when he timed the lights in the support races and assumed (rightly) F1 would be the same.
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Rockie
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Rockie »

The Problem here is as along as you give yourself a tolerance gap for jump start you'll not beat the sensor the problem is most people line up dead on the line where the sensor is.

So for Bottas he wasn't close to the line thus didn't trigger the sensor.

mikeyg123
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:If drivers react on other drivers reacting, then that shows that they are also not paying attention... It may seem strange the current rules we have (as many are) but I see consistency here and I'm certain any driver will get away with it so long as they are within the limits.
I'm not arguing RE consistency but why not make things black and white when it could be? Of course people get distracted by movement in the periphery when they are focusing hard on something ahead. It's not something that it's in their control. You can't just decide to not be distracted by something distracting lol.

Asphalt_World
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Asphalt_World »

Surely the sensor knows if you moved early, even if you're starting slightly behind where you could. It's not like you can start way way back and simply jump the lights by about half a second and claim you hadn't passed your grid line.

If you're not close enough for the sensor to detect you, you should have to move forward before the start or get a penatly.
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pokerman
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by pokerman »

Asphalt_World wrote:Surely the sensor knows if you moved early, even if you're starting slightly behind where you could. It's not like you can start way way back and simply jump the lights by about half a second and claim you hadn't passed your grid line.

If you're not close enough for the sensor to detect you, you should have to move forward before the start or get a penatly.
I actually think you can do that.
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Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

mikeyg123 wrote:It's very F1 to basically add a margin for error in something that should be black and white. I have thought for a long time now that the powers that be don't like black and white rules with set penalties for breaking them as it restricts their power to manipulate situations and help or hurt who they want at the right time.

The rule should be if you move before the lights go out it's a slam dunk penalty. Easy, simple and there is no debate.
:thumbup:

LBET
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by LBET »

wire2004 wrote:...In my view. It should be black and white. If you moved before the lights went out you should be served with a jump start penalty. 10 seconds stop go was the penalty back in the 90s and early 2000s. ....
It's really that simple.

pokerman
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by pokerman »

LBET wrote:
wire2004 wrote:...In my view. It should be black and white. If you moved before the lights went out you should be served with a jump start penalty. 10 seconds stop go was the penalty back in the 90s and early 2000s. ....
It's really that simple.
It really is and as been pointed out it can trigger another driver to move early like we saw last year when Vettel moving early caused Bottas to start the race early, the fact that neither driver got penalised highlighted the gaping hole in the sensor system.

Also let's not forget the first time that Bottas did it, Vettel swore blind that Bottas went early, the system is greatly flawed.
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Option or Prime
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
LBET wrote:
wire2004 wrote:...In my view. It should be black and white. If you moved before the lights went out you should be served with a jump start penalty. 10 seconds stop go was the penalty back in the 90s and early 2000s. ....
It's really that simple.
It really is and as been pointed out it can trigger another driver to move early like we saw last year when Vettel moving early caused Bottas to start the race early, the fact that neither driver got penalised highlighted the gaping hole in the sensor system.

Also let's not forget the first time that Bottas did it, Vettel swore blind that Bottas went early, the system is greatly flawed.
Channel 4 highlights last night showed there was no movement before the lights went out.

pokerman
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
LBET wrote:
wire2004 wrote:...In my view. It should be black and white. If you moved before the lights went out you should be served with a jump start penalty. 10 seconds stop go was the penalty back in the 90s and early 2000s. ....
It's really that simple.
It really is and as been pointed out it can trigger another driver to move early like we saw last year when Vettel moving early caused Bottas to start the race early, the fact that neither driver got penalised highlighted the gaping hole in the sensor system.

Also let's not forget the first time that Bottas did it, Vettel swore blind that Bottas went early, the system is greatly flawed.
Channel 4 highlights last night showed there was no movement before the lights went out.
They were clearly wrong then but I guess we then can say that he was still inside of his box, the sensor clearly doesn't police what exactly constitutes a jump start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZliWL5HkgJM
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Fiki
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Fiki »

If lights going out is a problem, change to green lights coming on within a certain window after the reds are all off. Or did I misunderstand the technical point the TS was making?
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Option or Prime
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Channel 4 highlights last night showed there was no movement before the lights went out.
They were clearly wrong then but I guess we then can say that he was still inside of his box, the sensor clearly doesn't police what exactly constitutes a jump start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZliWL5HkgJM
If you look at the video he is still in the box and has jumped and stopped in the box as the lights go out and then goes again. As you say we don't know what the sensor is policing.

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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:If lights going out is a problem, change to green lights coming on within a certain window after the reds are all off. Or did I misunderstand the technical point the TS was making?
What difference would that make if you can simply say that the movement wasn't picked up by the sensor.
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pokerman
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Channel 4 highlights last night showed there was no movement before the lights went out.
They were clearly wrong then but I guess we then can say that he was still inside of his box, the sensor clearly doesn't police what exactly constitutes a jump start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZliWL5HkgJM
If you look at the video he is still in the box and has jumped and stopped in the box as the lights go out and then goes again. As you say we don't know what the sensor is policing.
Well you just said he jumped the lights, that's what a false start is supposed to mean, moving before the lights have gone out, any other sport it would be a jumped start.

Also you have to consider the secondary actions it might cause, a driver moving early could trigger another driver to start and actually get picked up by the sensor.
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Fiki
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:If lights going out is a problem, change to green lights coming on within a certain window after the reds are all off. Or did I misunderstand the technical point the TS was making?
What difference would that make if you can simply say that the movement wasn't picked up by the sensor.
The idea isn't about the movement being picked up or not, it's about triggering the driver's reaction. I don't know why they switched from turning lights on to turning lights off, but I found the TS explanation interesting.
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WHoff78
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by WHoff78 »

It seems a little ridiculous that if a start like that is within the tolerances of the sensors then it is fine. Presumably the sensors are 100% reliable even when the movement is so clear to the eye? Surely there is a fairly strong argument this could easily have affected both Racing Points on the row behind. A number of the cars on the left hand side (Bottas' side) seem to have poor starts, but Stroll seems to lose out a little as well. Perhaps there is less concern given the doubts over their car anyway.
Last edited by WHoff78 on Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Channel 4 highlights last night showed there was no movement before the lights went out.
They were clearly wrong then but I guess we then can say that he was still inside of his box, the sensor clearly doesn't police what exactly constitutes a jump start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZliWL5HkgJM
If you look at the video he is still in the box and has jumped and stopped in the box as the lights go out and then goes again. As you say we don't know what the sensor is policing.
Well you just said he jumped the lights, that's what a false start is supposed to mean, moving before the lights have gone out, any other sport it would be a jumped start.

Also you have to consider the secondary actions it might cause, a driver moving early could trigger another driver to start and actually get picked up by the sensor.
I didn't say he jumped the lights, I said he jumped, you have started racing when you cross the line, he hadn't.

As for secondary consequences if you go because you think someones else is going and your wrong then thats your stupid fault. Not at all sure that is relevant.

mikeyg123
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by mikeyg123 »

Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Channel 4 highlights last night showed there was no movement before the lights went out.
They were clearly wrong then but I guess we then can say that he was still inside of his box, the sensor clearly doesn't police what exactly constitutes a jump start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZliWL5HkgJM
If you look at the video he is still in the box and has jumped and stopped in the box as the lights go out and then goes again. As you say we don't know what the sensor is policing.
Well you just said he jumped the lights, that's what a false start is supposed to mean, moving before the lights have gone out, any other sport it would be a jumped start.

Also you have to consider the secondary actions it might cause, a driver moving early could trigger another driver to start and actually get picked up by the sensor.
I didn't say he jumped the lights, I said he jumped, you have started racing when you cross the line, he hadn't.

As for secondary consequences if you go because you think someones else is going and your wrong then thats your stupid fault. Not at all sure that is relevant.
If you start going because for some bizarre reason like your looking at the wrong lights your wrong and that's your stupid fault.

Bottas moving is obviously going to distract people around him. They can't just decide to not be distracted by a distracting thing. They might not move with him but it could still easily make them mess up their start and I don't find that fair.
Last edited by mikeyg123 on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pokerman
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Channel 4 highlights last night showed there was no movement before the lights went out.
They were clearly wrong then but I guess we then can say that he was still inside of his box, the sensor clearly doesn't police what exactly constitutes a jump start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZliWL5HkgJM
If you look at the video he is still in the box and has jumped and stopped in the box as the lights go out and then goes again. As you say we don't know what the sensor is policing.
Well you just said he jumped the lights, that's what a false start is supposed to mean, moving before the lights have gone out, any other sport it would be a jumped start.

Also you have to consider the secondary actions it might cause, a driver moving early could trigger another driver to start and actually get picked up by the sensor.
I didn't say he jumped the lights, I said he jumped, you have started racing when you cross the line, he hadn't.

As for secondary consequences if you go because you think someones else is going and your wrong then thats your stupid fault. Not at all sure that is relevant.
I don't believe that's how the rules were originally written, if you move then you've jumped the start, this sensor clearly doesn't detect that so doesn't police the original rule properly.

We see in other sports that a false movement can trigger others to react too early, in other sports there is zero tolerance, in F1 the stewards are basically too lazy to do the job how it's supposed to be done, the sensor said no so your good to go.
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Lord Crc
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by Lord Crc »

No idea what the rules actually say, but in my mind it should be simple: after the first light comes on, any movement before the lights (start to) go out should be considered a jump start.

If the transponder has inaccuracies, a camera based system should be fairly trivial to whip up in these AI/ML days.

pokerman
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Re: Lights and jump starts

Post by pokerman »

Lord Crc wrote:No idea what the rules actually say, but in my mind it should be simple: after the first light comes on, any movement before the lights (start to) go out should be considered a jump start.

If the transponder has inaccuracies, a camera based system should be fairly trivial to whip up in these AI/ML days.
That's what they use in MotoGP and it works how it's supposed to work but that does entail the stewards having to do some actual work.
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