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Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.

Ha, if you really wanted a conspiracy theory, how about wanting to concrete the Stroll legacy?

Beating a four time world champion teammate would be a big feather in Lance’s cap, even if there are questions about said world champion’s form and (as long as it wasn’t obvious) how you beat him.

That’s a hell of a lot of money to promote your son, but he hasn’t exactly shied from that in the past.

Thoughts

B

PlanetF1 taking inspiration from the forum? https://www.planetf1.com/features/why-r ... rop-perez/

Well, the Strolls sort of "bought" the F3 title this way, so rumours like this are sort of logical. Still, I think Perez had one of his weak weekends while Stroll had one of his better ones - that's all.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.

There's rumours of Perez being ill.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/18/per ... g-session/

Perez felt a bit dizzy in qualifying and I think that was it.

But I think given that both on Saturday and Sunday Stroll looked a fair bit better, I think this for once showed that he had the pace to beat Perez. I think this is the only time ever Stroll has very comfortably outperformed a team mate that hasn't had a race full of mistakes or errors / bad luck?

The margin in the end was huge. Pretty much 30 seconds which was the same between Bottas and Hamilton until Hamilton pitted. I'm not convinced that Racing point is set up right for the race compared to qualifying. Both showed nowhere near the pace they did in qualifying and I don't think it is totally down to the drivers under performing.

If Stroll can continue to look this good, or at least decent, then I think as harsh as it is on Perez, it may be worth the chance to sign Vettel. I'm not sure why I still have confidence with Vettel really. But if he goes to a new team that is reasonably strong, he may be able to have another Ferrari 2015 year. He still shows to me that he has more pace than Perez ever does both in qualifying and in the race, but consistency is his problem. We just can't confirm if he has the ability to get back on form. But in a new environment and not fighting at the very top with less pressure, he may well be able to get the best out of the car.

I think it's far too early to draw such conclusions. Perez totally duffed the start on a circuit where track position is absolutely everything. The 30 second gap is explained simply by Perez being behind slower cars for much of the race due to his poor getaway, while Stroll basically had free practice 4 once the significantly slower Haas cars were dispatched.

This also only came one race after Perez showing vastly superior race pace to Stroll at a track where overtaking was far more viable. There have been false dawns like this in the past such as Canada last year. I'd need to see Stroll do that a few more times this season before getting too excited.

I think you need to look at the lap times in the race. Perez did not have the race pace that stroll had. Perez's fast lap was in the 20's. Stoll got into the m1.18's. Held off Bottas, in a superior car, for quite a few laps and then ran away from Vettle in the ferrari after the pit stop All this arguing about who is going to stay if they sign Vettle is redundant. Stroll SR. isn't listen to any of you anyway and seems to make pretty good decisions by himself. This is F! and drivers get dropped by teams for no good reason all the time. Feel sorry for Perez but i'm sure he will find a home at Haas. Maybe Haas and Slim could pool their money and make the team, TEAM NORTH AMERICA.

spiritone wrote:I think you need to look at the lap times in the race. Perez did not have the race pace that stroll had. Perez's fast lap was in the 20's. Stoll got into the m1.18's. Held off Bottas, in a superior car, for quite a few laps and then ran away from Vettle in the ferrari after the pit stop All this arguing about who is going to stay if they sign Vettle is redundant. Stroll SR. isn't listen to any of you anyway and seems to make pretty good decisions by himself. This is F! and drivers get dropped by teams for no good reason all the time. Feel sorry for Perez but i'm sure he will find a home at Haas. Maybe Haas and Slim could pool their money and make the team, TEAM NORTH AMERICA.

Again, that isn't particularly relevant because Perez almost never had clean air, and certainly not at the end when the fuel was lightest. Don't get me wrong, Stroll earned the right to that clean air with a solid showing in qualifying, and a good getaway, but one race could be an outlier and we need to see Stroll perform well over a long period.

If we don't see that then it will prove that the nepotism is coming at the detriment of the team (as it did last year but with lower stakes). Stroll will improve, and is showing signs of that, but it's a question of whether his top level will prove to be strong enough.

Absolutely. Vettel is still one of the best drivers. The only problem is his commitment to midfield team. IMO RP considering their budget have done amazing job for many years consistently. So now with more money may be they can like RBR?. Vettel will be huge boost and can be the surprise of 2021. Especially if RP can clone Mercedes 2020 car. I can see him getting podium which looks rather unlikely this year

That's the thing - Vettel is a proven world champion. He alone got himself up to 6th last race by demanding mediums after the rain when the team wanted to slap on softs - and despite their holding him for 2 billion years during that pit stop. I think before we see Racing Point improving because of Vettel, we will see Ferrari suffering for lack of an experienced driver. It may take a year, but Vettel would do wonders for racing point. Not only are they on the cusp, they do not seem to do things the Ferrari way - which has not worked out so well for them over the last decade. Perez has improved leaps and bounds, but does he have what it takes to take them to the next level? Maybe. Does Vettel? Yes. And that is the difference.

BMW - never got in clean air??? 70 laps and not one clean lap, really. I'm not saying that stroll is going to beat him for the rest of the year but in this race he flat out beat him. He's 21 and i"ll admit his progress has been slow but there has also been extenuating circumstances. The team has not been the greatest with strategy for both drivers. I sometimes wonder about the communication between st roll and his engineer. They don't seem to be on the same page especially in qualifying. Makes me wonder what happened these last few races. For once the changes they made between Q1 Q2 Q3 actually improved the car. Should be interesting races ahead.

The most logical scenario would be Perez & Vettel. On paper too, this is a strong lineup & very ideal for the incoming Aston Martin brand. Vettel a multiple world champion & Perez, many a times best of the rest with a good funding as well.

As for Lance, he can either be loaned to another team to keep gaining experience or become the reserve driver with multiple FP outings to prevent him from rusting. He has age & time on his side whereas Vettel & Perez might not have to a certain degree.

Not going to happen. Vettle / stroll 2021.

Given that Perez tested positive for Covid-19 following his trip to Mexico (where they have almost zero testing - clue #1) then I would hire Vettel to replace him. So his mom was ill and just got out of the HOSPITAL (clue #2). Award 2 points for wanting to see parent, subtract 3 points for obvious stupidity. I wonder if he even wore a facemask once his private plane touched down in Mexico. If not, 3 clues and you're out.

I wonder if RP are regretting this deal (if and when it gets announced) Vettel has just been embarrassing.

I would have thought a 4 x WC would have come out fighting, this is just getting sad.

He’s sinking his own reputation further and further (impressive in its own way as I thought he’d hit rock bottom), wish he’d retire already.

The change in philosophy at Ferrari to reduce drag to up the straight line speed has shown he really can’t cope without lots of downforce.

B

DeepPyro69 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:56 am

I wonder if RP are regretting this deal (if and when it gets announced) Vettel has just been embarrassing.

I would have thought a 4 x WC would have come out fighting, this is just getting sad.

He’s sinking his own reputation further and further (impressive in its own way as I thought he’d hit rock bottom), wish he’d retire already.

The change in philosophy at Ferrari to reduce drag to up the straight line speed has shown he really can’t cope without lots of downforce.

B

I’ve never understood this reasoning, people were saying last winter that this season’s Ferrari would have more downforce and that would suit Vettel better. What I don’t understand is that Vettel’s four world titles were in cars that don’t have anywhere near as much downforce as these current cars do. If Vettel couldn’t cope without downforce, he wouldn’t have won those world titles.

Regarding your initial question - I’d like to think Vettel would be rejuvenated with a fresh start but who knows.

JN23 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:18 pm

DeepPyro69 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:56 am

The change in philosophy at Ferrari to reduce drag to up the straight line speed has shown he really can’t cope without lots of downforce.

B

I’ve never understood this reasoning, people were saying last winter that this season’s Ferrari would have more downforce and that would suit Vettel better. What I don’t understand is that Vettel’s four world titles were in cars that don’t have anywhere near as much downforce as these current cars do. If Vettel couldn’t cope without downforce, he wouldn’t have won those world titles.

Regarding your initial question - I’d like to think Vettel would be rejuvenated with a fresh start but who knows.

The issue is downforce related to torque, the older cars had less downforce but also less relative torque.

The hybrid engines seem to be Vettels Achilles heel, he seems to sometimes forget he can’t just hit the gas out of a corner like he could in the 2010-2014 Redbull.

Ferrari have admitted they have reduced downforce to increase top speed, Leclerc seems to be coping, Vettel not.

B

At this point I'm not sure I'd swap Stroll for Vettel.

Lojik wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:58 pm

At this point I'm not sure I'd swap Stroll for Vettel.

sadly true, the knives are out already

https://www.planetf1.com/news/sebastian ... rari-exit/

B

Well, I remember how people emphasized Vettel's team-building and development competences when he replaced Alonso at Ferrari. In contrast to the latter, it was claimed that Vettel would never complain about the team or let the atmosphere become toxic. Well ...

By the way, when Vettel was losing to Ricciardo at RB, he was also demanding a new chassis/ car. And it did not change anything.

That said, Vettel can and will perform better again. He would be an asset to Stroll Point AM; and he also gets a slow number 2.

At the end of last year, Vettel and Charles were quite closely matched. There was only 24 points between them but Vettel scored in less races. The qualifying wasn't a whitewash either.

Obviously something has happened since then - political I assume - where it has made Vettel feel persona non grata with the management and that obviously has had a knock-on effect in his performances. If his head is in the right place then he can still perform but all the momentum is with Charles right now and Ferrari want to let him know that (until the pressure cranks on him too). When you feel unwanted it's time to exit ASAP with as much dignity as you can.

Vettel and Ferrari should just come to some type of agreement ASAP and mutually part ways. It's toxic for both of them and they'll hold each other back.

Here's an idea; swap Perez for Vettel immediately. Replace Grosjean with Perez for next year by giving him a firm contract. A Mexican in an American company makes alot of financial and commercial success. Perez would do a better job than crazy Kevin and moaning Romain anyway.

Perez leaving is inevitable anyway. As is Vettel leaving Ferrari. Why not just expedite the process?

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:34 am

At the end of last year, Vettel and Charles were quite closely matched. There was only 24 points between them but Vettel scored in less races. The qualifying wasn't a whitewash either.

Obviously something has happened since then...

For the first part of the season Vettel still enjoyed a N°1 status and Leclerc's races were "not optimized", to say the least. Which resulted in Leclerc getting less points than he should but still being ahead of Vettel mid-season.
May be what happened since is simply that Ferrari lost all faith in Vettel's capacities of doing anything of his N°1 status that Leclerc couldn't do better...

Harpo wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:16 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:34 am

At the end of last year, Vettel and Charles were quite closely matched. There was only 24 points between them but Vettel scored in less races. The qualifying wasn't a whitewash either.

Obviously something has happened since then...

For the first part of the season Vettel still enjoyed a N°1 status and Leclerc's races were "not optimized", to say the least. Which resulted in Leclerc getting less points than he should but still being ahead of Vettel mid-season.
May be what happened since is simply that Ferrari lost all faith in Vettel's capacities of doing anything of his N°1 status that Leclerc couldn't do better...

Well, it's worth taking the gamble I suppose. However, to make it so overt is obviously disruptive to the team and their chance. This past weekend for instance, the silly strategy they put Vettel on lost them a bag of time and performance. Obviously he had his spin at the beginning but he had made his way up the field again and his tyres were hanging in well and points were definately on the table as the Ferrari had excellent tyre management on the harder tyres. Charles proved that.

I personally don't think the culture at Ferrari can field two drivers with equal treatment. It seems to be all or nothing with them.

Vettel is ironically being 'Webbered' at Ferrari.

He looks a broken driver, but I still think a happy Seb is a fast Seb - he could well relish a fresh environment.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:34 am

At the end of last year, Vettel and Charles were quite closely matched. There was only 24 points between them but Vettel scored in less races. The qualifying wasn't a whitewash either.

Obviously something has happened since then - political I assume - where it has made Vettel feel persona non grata with the management and that obviously has had a knock-on effect in his performances. If his head is in the right place then he can still perform but all the momentum is with Charles right now and Ferrari want to let him know that (until the pressure cranks on him too). When you feel unwanted it's time to exit ASAP with as much dignity as you can.

Vettel and Ferrari should just come to some type of agreement ASAP and mutually part ways. It's toxic for both of them and they'll hold each other back.

Here's an idea; swap Perez for Vettel immediately. Replace Grosjean with Perez for next year by giving him a firm contract. A Mexican in an American company makes alot of financial and commercial success. Perez would do a better job than crazy Kevin and moaning Romain anyway.

Perez leaving is inevitable anyway. As is Vettel leaving Ferrari. Why not just expedite the process?

Bib: if we look at their McLaren stints alongside Button than that's not that clear. Magnussen was comparatively better in qualifying and showed more speed. Perez was the better points collector as Magnussen suffered from several rookie-mistakes. Indeed, Magnussen was a rookie when partnering Button, while Perez was already more experienced.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:34 am

At the end of last year, Vettel and Charles were quite closely matched. There was only 24 points between them but Vettel scored in less races. The qualifying wasn't a whitewash either.

Obviously something has happened since then - political I assume - where it has made Vettel feel persona non grata with the management and that obviously has had a knock-on effect in his performances. If his head is in the right place then he can still perform but all the momentum is with Charles right now and Ferrari want to let him know that (until the pressure cranks on him too). When you feel unwanted it's time to exit ASAP with as much dignity as you can.

Vettel and Ferrari should just come to some type of agreement ASAP and mutually part ways. It's toxic for both of them and they'll hold each other back.

Here's an idea; swap Perez for Vettel immediately. Replace Grosjean with Perez for next year by giving him a firm contract. A Mexican in an American company makes alot of financial and commercial success. Perez would do a better job than crazy Kevin and moaning Romain anyway.

Perez leaving is inevitable anyway. As is Vettel leaving Ferrari. Why not just expedite the process?

I'm surprised you wasn't expecting Leclerc to improve this year, Vettel will do better at Aston Martin, the car will suit him better and he will have a much weaker teammate.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:11 pm

Harpo wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:16 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:34 am

At the end of last year, Vettel and Charles were quite closely matched. There was only 24 points between them but Vettel scored in less races. The qualifying wasn't a whitewash either.

Obviously something has happened since then...

For the first part of the season Vettel still enjoyed a N°1 status and Leclerc's races were "not optimized", to say the least. Which resulted in Leclerc getting less points than he should but still being ahead of Vettel mid-season.
May be what happened since is simply that Ferrari lost all faith in Vettel's capacities of doing anything of his N°1 status that Leclerc couldn't do better...

Well, it's worth taking the gamble I suppose. However, to make it so overt is obviously disruptive to the team and their chance. This past weekend for instance, the silly strategy they put Vettel on lost them a bag of time and performance. Obviously he had his spin at the beginning but he had made his way up the field again and his tyres were hanging in well and points were definately on the table as the Ferrari had excellent tyre management on the harder tyres. Charles proved that.

I personally don't think the culture at Ferrari can field two drivers with equal treatment. It seems to be all or nothing with them.

One theory is that Ferrari were not sure that Vettel would accept a team order to let Leclerc pass him, he has form for this, so decided to pit him instead, Leclerc was heading for big points, not so much in Vettel's case.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:09 pm

Bib: if we look at their McLaren stints alongside Button than that's not that clear. Magnussen was comparatively better in qualifying and showed more speed. Perez was the better points collector as Magnussen suffered from several rookie-mistakes. Indeed, Magnussen was a rookie when partnering Button, while Perez was already more experienced.

Magnussen indeed did pretty well against Button in qualifying (considering he was a rookie), but he got absolutely pounded in the races. By my memory, there were only two all season long where he finished ahead of Button on merit -- it may be a slightly larger number, but not much.

There's also the Jolyon Palmer comparison, where Magnussen looked only slightly better than Palmer who went on to be shellacked by Hulk. We know Hulk and Perez are pretty equal after several seasons as teammates, so that doesn't look good for the idea that Magnussen is better than Perez.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:30 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:34 am

At the end of last year, Vettel and Charles were quite closely matched. There was only 24 points between them but Vettel scored in less races. The qualifying wasn't a whitewash either.

Obviously something has happened since then - political I assume - where it has made Vettel feel persona non grata with the management and that obviously has had a knock-on effect in his performances. If his head is in the right place then he can still perform but all the momentum is with Charles right now and Ferrari want to let him know that (until the pressure cranks on him too). When you feel unwanted it's time to exit ASAP with as much dignity as you can.

Vettel and Ferrari should just come to some type of agreement ASAP and mutually part ways. It's toxic for both of them and they'll hold each other back.

Here's an idea; swap Perez for Vettel immediately. Replace Grosjean with Perez for next year by giving him a firm contract. A Mexican in an American company makes alot of financial and commercial success. Perez would do a better job than crazy Kevin and moaning Romain anyway.

Perez leaving is inevitable anyway. As is Vettel leaving Ferrari. Why not just expedite the process?

I'm surprised you wasn't expecting Leclerc to improve this year, Vettel will do better at Aston Martin, the car will suit him better and he will have a much weaker teammate.

I did expect Charles to improve. I said he had all the momentum. I didn't expect Vettel to sink like this though. Maybe it's just the typical Ferrari politics that is getting to him and he doesn't have the mental strength to cope with it. That's typical with most front runners.

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:25 pm

Vettel is ironically being 'Webbered' at Ferrari.

He looks a broken driver, but I still think a happy Seb is a fast Seb - he could well relish a fresh environment.

Indeed. You don't win 4 championships by accident or by lacking speed. He's still in his physical prime and in the right environment could thrive again.

Aston Martin will sell more cars in Germany or globally with a four time world champion repping them than a Mexican driver will. Lawrence Stroll is pure business and he'll think along those terms.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:06 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:25 pm

Vettel is ironically being 'Webbered' at Ferrari.

He looks a broken driver, but I still think a happy Seb is a fast Seb - he could well relish a fresh environment.

Indeed. You don't win 4 championships by accident or by lacking speed. He's still in his physical prime and in the right environment could thrive again.

Aston Martin will sell more cars in Germany or globally with a four time world champion repping them than a Mexican driver will. Lawrence Stroll is pure business and he'll think along those terms.

I believe Vettel can thrive again given the right environment, although he appears limited in terms of the sort of environment which he can thrive under. At the same time, I don't believe he's quite all that. Ferrari are favouring Leclerc now, but they aren't sabotaging Vettel. Leclerc is apparently a beast at Silverstone, and Vettel has his work cut out to keep up with Charles the moment Ferrari sacrifices downforce for speed. It just seems to me that Leclerc has a wider window in which he can extract something near the maximum of the car. At this stage he might already be superior to Vettel.

I'm not sure Vettel is better than Perez at this stage, but with the wind in his sails in his prime I'm sure he was better than Perez, especially as he was/is a significantly better qualifier and that matters for dominance at the top.

But 4 WDCs greatly flatters him. And frankly that is the case with any driver who had a luxury of chances to win, so Schumacher and Hamilton are also flattered in a sense. But the more I watch Vettel the more I come to the conclusion that he's probably not a top-ten driver ever, given the sort of gap I perceive in performance between him, Hamilton and Alonso, who were all contemporaries and rivals. Having such a deficit and being a distant third best of his era, in my eyes at least, makes it pretty tough for him to crack the top ten given there are many other greats and many other eras and periods which could make up such a list.

But anyway, I digress.

On recent form Vettel is the Spinmeister and at this point it's become a caricature, given how often it's happened over not just a few months, but several seasons. The last time he was consistently impressive was the first half of the 2017 season and that's a long time ago. Perez brings in a lot of money and he is a points hoover. I'd pair Vettel with Perez, but almost all of us assume that ain't happenin'.

Swap Perez with Vettel if that's the only option being considered? It would be nice to keep a world champion on the grid but, at least for me, not at Perez' expense at this stage, given the loyalty he has shown to the team and the general quality of his driving, not to mention the money he brings in.

I'm not sure why so many have such pity for him either for his situation at Ferrari and the chance initially that he could have been forced into, at least, a sabbatical. I'm not talking so much for this forum but the general reaction across many forums and reddit and the webz in general innit. He's lived a charmed existence, and he hasn't performed particularly well at Ferrari and Leclerc now shows more promise. It is what it is. Now with his reputation and clout he might be about to conspire with Papa Stroll to shove Perez right out of Racing Point/Aston Martin.

Charming stuff!

It's rumoured this week Vettel will be announced as a driver for AM. The announcement was delayed due to being courteous for Checo was he was positive for Covid 19.

UnlikeUday wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:18 am

It's rumoured this week Vettel will be announced as a driver for AM. The announcement was delayed due to being courteous for Checo was he was positive for Covid 19.

Racing Point could also become toxic for Perez too, much like Ferrari is for Vettel. The management don't want Perez and even though the mechanics may have a soft spot for him, ultimately business decisions trump sentimentality and Lawrence Stroll is pretty ruthless. The way he speaks - very bluntly and without emotion - is very telling about the type of person he is.

Swapping Perez with Vettel would be a good move right now and Perez would probably end up at Haas next next if they kick Grosjean out. Or they could keep Perez till the end of the season and could stick Vettel in as a test driver and give him Free Practise running times and take the pressure off him while he learns the ropes and the procedures of the team.

Hulkenberg could then replace Vettel?

A big name for Aston Martin publicity...
It doesn't even matter if Vettel ends getting spanked by Stroll Junior, I'm not sure motor racing is of any interest to people rich enough to buy James Bond's car (and drink only vintage Bollinger every now and then ?).

I like his personality and he's fun in the press conferences but Ricciardo and Leclerc have shown up Vettel for how good a driver he really is. I certainly would not swap him for Perez, who I rate much higher. Vettel is a four time world champion because he was basically in the fastest car and just had to be quicker than Webber, hardly a tall order for much of the grid. I'd be happy to see Vettel retire now and give someone less error prone a shot in a decent car.

klevispin wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:35 am

I like his personality and he's fun in the press conferences but Ricciardo and Leclerc have shown up Vettel for how good a driver he really is. I certainly would not swap him for Perez, who I rate much higher. Vettel is a four time world champion because he was basically in the fastest car and just had to be quicker than Webber, hardly a tall order for much of the grid. I'd be happy to see Vettel retire now and give someone less error prone a shot in a decent car.

You make Vettel sound like some journeyman bum who just happened to get lucky.

Webber was a good driver and was in F1 on merit. Remember his Jaguar days? Remember Ricardo getting beaten by Kvyat and having his hands full with Vergne?

We'll see how Charles and other current hype jobs (not meant to be disparaging here btw) do when there is real resistance to overcome like, say, competing or a world driver's championship and a real mental gymnastics battle rears its ugly head.

UnlikeUday wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:18 am

It's rumoured this week Vettel will be announced as a driver for AM. The announcement was delayed due to being courteous for Checo was he was positive for Covid 19.

Yeah I mentioned a week or so ago that it had been delayed initially because of that, I also mentioned that Perez's sponsors were happy to pay more money which looked like it might scupper the Vettel deal but I guess not.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:21 am

klevispin wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:35 am

I like his personality and he's fun in the press conferences but Ricciardo and Leclerc have shown up Vettel for how good a driver he really is. I certainly would not swap him for Perez, who I rate much higher. Vettel is a four time world champion because he was basically in the fastest car and just had to be quicker than Webber, hardly a tall order for much of the grid. I'd be happy to see Vettel retire now and give someone less error prone a shot in a decent car.

You make Vettel sound like some journeyman bum who just happened to get lucky.

Webber was a good driver and was in F1 on merit. Remember his Jaguar days? Remember Ricardo getting beaten by Kvyat and having his hands full with Vergne?

We'll see how Charles and other current hype jobs (not meant to be disparaging here btw) do when there is real resistance to overcome like, say, competing or a world driver's championship and a real mental gymnastics battle rears its ugly head.

I think there is a middle ground for your 2 opinions, one were Vettel may be better than Perez but not as good as either Ricciardo or Leclerc.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:41 am

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:21 am

klevispin wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:35 am

I like his personality and he's fun in the press conferences but Ricciardo and Leclerc have shown up Vettel for how good a driver he really is. I certainly would not swap him for Perez, who I rate much higher. Vettel is a four time world champion because he was basically in the fastest car and just had to be quicker than Webber, hardly a tall order for much of the grid. I'd be happy to see Vettel retire now and give someone less error prone a shot in a decent car.

You make Vettel sound like some journeyman bum who just happened to get lucky.

Webber was a good driver and was in F1 on merit. Remember his Jaguar days? Remember Ricardo getting beaten by Kvyat and having his hands full with Vergne?

We'll see how Charles and other current hype jobs (not meant to be disparaging here btw) do when there is real resistance to overcome like, say, competing or a world driver's championship and a real mental gymnastics battle rears its ugly head.

I think there is a middle ground for your 2 opinions, one were Vettel may be better than Perez but not as good as either Ricciardo or Leclerc.

Maybe Ricciardo isn't as good as people think he is either. It's not like he has shown leadership qualities at Renault and he bounced at the first opportunity he got in moving from Renault to Mclaren. He also did the same when Verstappen was his team mate too and didn't like the cosy relationship he developed with Helmut Marko and the management. He was also beaten by Kvyat in 2015 (i agree there are mitigating circumstances here but if it wasn't close, then Kvyat wouldn't have beaten him IMO) and Vergne did very well against him too. Nobody ever says those two are elite. If circumstances and team politics favour you, you'll always carry confidence and that will translate into performances. Unless you just have immense mental strength (ala Alonso) and can overcome just about everything with tremendous self belief.

Like I said earlier, we don't know how good many of these hype jobs are until there is REAL resistance and something of a huge challenge to overcome. We'll see how good Charles is fighting at the front when he is toe to toe against Verstappen. From what I've seen he seems very entitled and a bit of a whinger when things aren't going his way. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.

If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.

JN23 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am

If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.

Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.