Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:41 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:21 am
klevispin wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:35 am
I like his personality and he's fun in the press conferences but Ricciardo and Leclerc have shown up Vettel for how good a driver he really is. I certainly would not swap him for Perez, who I rate much higher. Vettel is a four time world champion because he was basically in the fastest car and just had to be quicker than Webber, hardly a tall order for much of the grid. I'd be happy to see Vettel retire now and give someone less error prone a shot in a decent car.
You make Vettel sound like some journeyman bum who just happened to get lucky.

Webber was a good driver and was in F1 on merit. Remember his Jaguar days? Remember Ricardo getting beaten by Kvyat and having his hands full with Vergne?

We'll see how Charles and other current hype jobs (not meant to be disparaging here btw) do when there is real resistance to overcome like, say, competing or a world driver's championship and a real mental gymnastics battle rears its ugly head.
I think there is a middle ground for your 2 opinions, one were Vettel may be better than Perez but not as good as either Ricciardo or Leclerc.
Maybe Ricciardo isn't as good as people think he is either. It's not like he has shown leadership qualities at Renault and he bounced at the first opportunity he got in moving from Renault to Mclaren. He also did the same when Verstappen was his team mate too and didn't like the cosy relationship he developed with Helmut Marko and the management. He was also beaten by Kvyat in 2015 (i agree there are mitigating circumstances here but if it wasn't close, then Kvyat wouldn't have beaten him IMO) and Vergne did very well against him too. Nobody ever says those two are elite. If circumstances and team politics favour you, you'll always carry confidence and that will translate into performances. Unless you just have immense mental strength (ala Alonso) and can overcome just about everything with tremendous self belief.

Like I said earlier, we don't know how good many of these hype jobs are until there is REAL resistance and something of a huge challenge to overcome. We'll see how good Charles is fighting at the front when he is toe to toe against Verstappen. From what I've seen he seems very entitled and a bit of a whinger when things aren't going his way. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
Well you seem to know yourself there are 2 types of getting beat, one by points and one were you get well and truly beat, drivers can get beat on points even when they were the better driver due to unfortunate circumstances and there we are with Kvyat, also I think going back a decade to judge drivers on their rookie seasons is a bit of scraping the barrel, even then Ricciardo afterall got the nod on Vergne, we want to judge Verstappen against Sainz?

Your low rating of Ricciardo subsequently doesn't bear well on Vettel given the beating Ricciardo was able to give him.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
Circling back to the thread itself I wouldn't take Vettel over Perez just because he's a 4 time WDC, I would have to consider him to be the better driver as well, I believe we are considering how Vettel is perceived at this moment.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schermerhorn »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:38 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
Circling back to the thread itself I wouldn't take Vettel over Perez just because he's a 4 time WDC, I would have to consider him to be the better driver as well, I believe we are considering how Vettel is perceived at this moment.
I'd take the gamble on Vettel over Perez because we've seen his ceiling and in a happy environment he can thrive and has that pedigree (for whatever that is worth). I don't think it would take a lot for him to turn it around; just a better environment and some proper support and less political pressure which is exactly what Racing Point is.

I think Perez is an elite mid field driver. At the front he wouldn't be the guy I stake my money on the WDC on. Just my take on it though.

In a nutshell, Vettel is mentally fragile but capable of much more. His raw speed is excellent but his operating window is much smaller. The others may have a bigger window but their overall speed is slightly less at the peak.

It's healthy to have differing opinions.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

Harpo
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Harpo »

I always thought it's very difficult to judge Vettel's stage ar RBR. All I can see since the beginning is that Red Bull is a one driver team entering 2 cars.

Besides, Webber was better than what most people here seem to think (just like was Vergne). Had he been the "one driver" of the team in 2010, which he obviously was not, he would have won the championship.
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

User avatar
UnlikeUday
Posts: 8475
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:53 pm
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Question to all,
Does anyone think there's a 5% chance it will Stroll instead to be replaced by Vettel?

When Ocon was replaced by Stroll, a lot of fans didn't like it then. Checo has a big number of fans who are fans of RP as well. Ousting Checo who also saved the team and staff from going broke will surely have a big effect. Not to mention, creating a new topic to discuss on 'Nepotism'.

Imagine the team also has Hulk as an option but if 1 seat is permanently occupied because dad is boss, it's really ironical that 3 good drivers based on talent and experience have to fight over 1 seat and the other remaining 2 my have to unceremoniously exit F1.
Feel The Fourth

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:38 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
Circling back to the thread itself I wouldn't take Vettel over Perez just because he's a 4 time WDC, I would have to consider him to be the better driver as well, I believe we are considering how Vettel is perceived at this moment.
I'd take the gamble on Vettel over Perez because we've seen his ceiling and in a happy environment he can thrive and has that pedigree (for whatever that is worth). I don't think it would take a lot for him to turn it around; just a better environment and some proper support and less political pressure which is exactly what Racing Point is.

I think Perez is an elite mid field driver. At the front he wouldn't be the guy I stake my money on the WDC on. Just my take on it though.

In a nutshell, Vettel is mentally fragile but capable of much more. His raw speed is excellent but his operating window is much smaller. The others may have a bigger window but their overall speed is slightly less at the peak.

It's healthy to have differing opinions.
I think that's a balanced assessment of Vettel, just unfortunate that this superior peak perfromance you believe he has was only really seen against the likes of Webber and Kimi, Kimi another driver we had to hear for years was the fastest driver if only circumstances had not turned against him.

That's a theorectical almost idealogical stance that doesn't really get proven by merely beating weaker drivers, he managed to get back on the road against Kimi but I'm not sure the level of credit he will get back for beating Stroll?
Last edited by pokerman on Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:10 pm
Question to all,
Does anyone think there's a 5% chance it will Stroll instead to be replaced by Vettel?

When Ocon was replaced by Stroll, a lot of fans didn't like it then. Checo has a big number of fans who are fans of RP as well. Ousting Checo who also saved the team and staff from going broke will surely have a big effect. Not to mention, creating a new topic to discuss on 'Nepotism'.

Imagine the team also has Hulk as an option but if 1 seat is permanently occupied because dad is boss, it's really ironical that 3 good drivers based on talent and experience have to fight over 1 seat and the other remaining 2 my have to unceremoniously exit F1.
I think there is a 0% chance that Lance Stroll will get replaced.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Exediron »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 am
We'll see how good Charles is fighting at the front when he is toe to toe against Verstappen. From what I've seen he seems very entitled and a bit of a whinger when things aren't going his way. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
As of his second year in F1, those two things would have described Max perfectly...

Also, I wouldn't describe Charles as entitled at all. He has a strong sense of self-belief, as all F1 drivers do, but he came into Ferrari saying that Vettel was the #1 and it was up to him to prove that he deserved to be. Vettel, on the the other hand, seems to think he should be #1 simply because of who he is, with no performance to back it up.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:48 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 am
We'll see how good Charles is fighting at the front when he is toe to toe against Verstappen. From what I've seen he seems very entitled and a bit of a whinger when things aren't going his way. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
As of his second year in F1, those two things would have described Max perfectly...

Also, I wouldn't describe Charles as entitled at all. He has a strong sense of self-belief, as all F1 drivers do, but he came into Ferrari saying that Vettel was the #1 and it was up to him to prove that he deserved to be. Vettel, on the the other hand, seems to think he should be #1 simply because of who he is, with no performance to back it up.

Vettel doesn't deserve to be number one.

He, however, does deserve to be in another F1 seat and another environment. Ferrari and him are just going to become toxic for one another.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Invade »

On the topic of being entitled though, I don't think there's a driver on the grid who epitomises that more than Sebastian Vettel. It's a consistent theme of his career.

Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:48 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 am
We'll see how good Charles is fighting at the front when he is toe to toe against Verstappen. From what I've seen he seems very entitled and a bit of a whinger when things aren't going his way. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
As of his second year in F1, those two things would have described Max perfectly...

Also, I wouldn't describe Charles as entitled at all. He has a strong sense of self-belief, as all F1 drivers do, but he came into Ferrari saying that Vettel was the #1 and it was up to him to prove that he deserved to be. Vettel, on the the other hand, seems to think he should be #1 simply because of who he is, with no performance to back it up.
I agree. He has a strong sense of self-belief, but also an awareness of his own mistakes. Anytime he has made an error crashing out in qualifying or, say, into his teammate at Austria, he has held his hand up. He's been a very admirable figure thus far in F1.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Invade »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:36 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:48 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 am
We'll see how good Charles is fighting at the front when he is toe to toe against Verstappen. From what I've seen he seems very entitled and a bit of a whinger when things aren't going his way. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
As of his second year in F1, those two things would have described Max perfectly...

Also, I wouldn't describe Charles as entitled at all. He has a strong sense of self-belief, as all F1 drivers do, but he came into Ferrari saying that Vettel was the #1 and it was up to him to prove that he deserved to be. Vettel, on the the other hand, seems to think he should be #1 simply because of who he is, with no performance to back it up.
I agree. He has a strong sense of self-belief, but also an awareness of his own mistakes. Anytime he has made an error crashing out in qualifying or, say, into his teammate at Austria, he has held his hand up. He's been a very admirable figure thus far in F1.
Well, Leclerc seems to share a quality Hamilton has in being exceptionally self-critical and looking for improvement. Vettel can barely bring himself to admit that perhaps he must look within himself to find more performance and that others might be faster than him. He just about brought himself to say it (or imply it) after the last race to the press, biting his lips.

Leclerc is rather theatrical though and is the most self-flagellating sportsman I've ever seen! He seems like a very forceful character and spirit who will be capable of leading a team and able to generally stamp psychological dominance over his teammates. I salivate at the prospect of him being Verstappen's teammate in the distant future because I believe he'd be a real menace.

JN23
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by JN23 »

Invade wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:44 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:36 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:48 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 am
We'll see how good Charles is fighting at the front when he is toe to toe against Verstappen. From what I've seen he seems very entitled and a bit of a whinger when things aren't going his way. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
As of his second year in F1, those two things would have described Max perfectly...

Also, I wouldn't describe Charles as entitled at all. He has a strong sense of self-belief, as all F1 drivers do, but he came into Ferrari saying that Vettel was the #1 and it was up to him to prove that he deserved to be. Vettel, on the the other hand, seems to think he should be #1 simply because of who he is, with no performance to back it up.
I agree. He has a strong sense of self-belief, but also an awareness of his own mistakes. Anytime he has made an error crashing out in qualifying or, say, into his teammate at Austria, he has held his hand up. He's been a very admirable figure thus far in F1.
Well, Leclerc seems to share a quality Hamilton has in being exceptionally self-critical and looking for improvement. Vettel can barely bring himself to admit that perhaps he must look within himself to find more performance and that others might be faster than him. He just about brought himself to say it (or imply it) after the last race to the press, biting his lips.

Leclerc is rather theatrical though and is the most self-flagellating sportsman I've ever seen! He seems like a very forceful character and spirit who will be capable of leading a team and able to generally stamp psychological dominance over his teammates. I salivate at the prospect of him being Verstappen's teammate in the distant future because I believe he'd be a real menace.
When Lewis goes and they are the best two on the grid, that would be absolutely incredible if they had a championship capable car. Unfortunately I cannot see it happening at all. Red Bull won't sign Leclerc to partner Verstappen and Ferrari vice versa.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Exediron »

Invade wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:44 pm
I salivate at the prospect of him being Verstappen's teammate in the distant future because I believe he'd be a real menace.
I'd rather see them going against each other in different but equally strong cars, each with the full force of their team behind them. I know some people love to see teammates go for the WDC because then you know the car is equal -- but I'm a team-first sort of F1 fan, so I never enjoy it as much when it's all within the same team.

But I 100% share your desire to see the two of them fight for the championship. That will be epic, particularly with the history they've already started to build together on track... 8)
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Invade »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:52 pm
Invade wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:44 pm
I salivate at the prospect of him being Verstappen's teammate in the distant future because I believe he'd be a real menace.
I'd rather see them going against each other in different but equally strong cars, each with the full force of their team behind them. I know some people love to see teammates go for the WDC because then you know the car is equal -- but I'm a team-first sort of F1 fan, so I never enjoy it as much when it's all within the same team.

But I 100% share your desire to see the two of them fight for the championship. That will be epic, particularly with the history they've already started to build together on track... 8)
I can certainly agree with that, and especially as it appears that both have unique qualities which allows them to extract performance out of cars beyond the reaches of let's say your ordinary F1 driver. With Charles it's a case of: No rear? No problem. This opens up opportunities.

In terms of being teammates, it would be good to see two elites go at it again — something beyond Hamilton-Rosberg. But the level of ultimate performance Max and Charles could muster with the full backing of juggernauts like RBR and Ferrari would likely be higher, and we can only hope that such performance coincides for Championship battles between the two.

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:01 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:52 pm
Invade wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:44 pm
I salivate at the prospect of him being Verstappen's teammate in the distant future because I believe he'd be a real menace.
I'd rather see them going against each other in different but equally strong cars, each with the full force of their team behind them. I know some people love to see teammates go for the WDC because then you know the car is equal -- but I'm a team-first sort of F1 fan, so I never enjoy it as much when it's all within the same team.

But I 100% share your desire to see the two of them fight for the championship. That will be epic, particularly with the history they've already started to build together on track... 8)
I can certainly agree with that, and especially as it appears that both have unique qualities which allows them to extract performance out of cars beyond the reaches of let's say your ordinary F1 driver. With Charles it's a case of: No rear? No problem. This opens up opportunities.

In terms of being teammates, it would be good to see two elites go at it again — something beyond Hamilton-Rosberg. But the level of ultimate performance Max and Charles could muster with the full backing of juggernauts like RBR and Ferrari would likely be higher, and we can only hope that such performance coincides for Championship battles between the two.
Russell in the Merc might say what about me? :)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Invade »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 pm

Russell in the Merc might say what about me? :)
Yes and he might upset (an ageing) Hamilton.

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 pm

Russell in the Merc might say what about me? :)
Yes and he might upset (an ageing) Hamilton.
Hopefully he will get the call up in 2022.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schermerhorn »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:16 am
Invade wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 pm

Russell in the Merc might say what about me? :)
Yes and he might upset (an ageing) Hamilton.
Hopefully he will get the call up in 2022.
Hopefully this is the case, but going forwards, how much will Mercedes be committed to F1? Russell may be the victim of being at the right team but at the wrong time? We've seen this happen before.

We have a massive global recession looming, a dwindling F1 audience (bored by the Lewis/Mercedes domination perhaps) and I would wager sponsors would be leaving too if they're not getting the exposure or ROI they feel they deserve.

BMW left and never came back despite their arch rivals Mercedes having a major presence. VAG never committed with Porsche or Audi despite their LeMans success and no American manufacturer ever committed either.

I suspect that Mercedes may downsize and Aston Martin take priority for Toto Wolff. If a budget cap is in place, they can surely get similar big results for much less money?
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

Rockie
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Rockie »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.
I'm sure the irony is lost on them. :lol:
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:02 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:16 am
Invade wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 pm

Russell in the Merc might say what about me? :)
Yes and he might upset (an ageing) Hamilton.
Hopefully he will get the call up in 2022.
Hopefully this is the case, but going forwards, how much will Mercedes be committed to F1? Russell may be the victim of being at the right team but at the wrong time? We've seen this happen before.

We have a massive global recession looming, a dwindling F1 audience (bored by the Lewis/Mercedes domination perhaps) and I would wager sponsors would be leaving too if they're not getting the exposure or ROI they feel they deserve.

BMW left and never came back despite their arch rivals Mercedes having a major presence. VAG never committed with Porsche or Audi despite their LeMans success and no American manufacturer ever committed either.

I suspect that Mercedes may downsize and Aston Martin take priority for Toto Wolff. If a budget cap is in place, they can surely get similar big results for much less money?
Well if the powers that be are going to target Mercedes mid season to try and stop them winning then maybe their days in F1 are indeed numbered?

I keep hearing about poor F1 audiences yet what other motorsport series even comes close in popularity, I even thought the audiences went up last season, is it just a thing to say?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.
Am I missing something or did Vettel not have the same car as Leclerc, are we using the cheating to invalidate the match up?

A problem for Vettel is when the driver that beats him gets beaten by another driver, how many drivers have got to look better than Vettel before we may consider he was not even close to being the best of his generation?

Of course the titles and wins will always put him in good stead.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

kleefton
Posts: 4009
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by kleefton »

Vettel is a very fast driver that has lost his confidence. He might not be in his prime anymore and may never get it back though. A friend of mine pointed out that he hasn't been the same since that Baku 2017 incident. Until then, he was a very consistent front end performer that delivered whenever he had the car to do it, and he was giving Hamilton a very hard time. But after that incident he's basically become too error prone, which forced Ferrari to challenge him with their hot prospect Charles Leclerc. Bringing Leclerc to Ferrari so soon was the first sign that Ferrari in my opinion was questioning Vettel's ability. Even though they named him number one before the 2019 season even started, I think they felt there was a good chance Leclerc could have the measure of him, because of how bad the last half of 2017 was and how bad 2018 was unfolding. Leclerc seized the opportunity and basically forced Vettel out of the team. Now the Vettel confidence was completely shattered. An anticipated new contract negotiation with Ferrari never happened and it turned out that he was ultimately let go. So now he's not getting any younger and will most likely be relegated to the midfield with Aston Martin. I have some hope he might perform better there, as he will surely outqualify Stroll, but if he is in the midfield, with all the traffic that he will have to negotiate during the races, the errors will still show up imo and I would not be surprised if Stroll is the more consistent performer on race day. Anyway, I wish the guy the best.

JN23
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by JN23 »

Well this isn’t what we’ve been hearing recently: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15133 ... rs-go-away

Rockie
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.
Am I missing something or did Vettel not have the same car as Leclerc, are we using the cheating to invalidate the match up?

A problem for Vettel is when the driver that beats him gets beaten by another driver, how many drivers have got to look better than Vettel before we may consider he was not even close to being the best of his generation?

Of course the titles and wins will always put him in good stead.
Unfortunately you still don't get it and I can't help you get it!

User avatar
tootsie323
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by tootsie323 »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.
Am I missing something or did Vettel not have the same car as Leclerc, are we using the cheating to invalidate the match up?

A problem for Vettel is when the driver that beats him gets beaten by another driver, how many drivers have got to look better than Vettel before we may consider he was not even close to being the best of his generation?

Of course the titles and wins will always put him in good stead.
Unfortunately you still don't get it and I can't help you get it!
Allow me...
I'm pretty sure the argument here is that Vettel is dismissed as [a not-so-good] someone who lucked into his titles due to the RB of the time being vastly superior to the other cars. At the same time, some people hail Ricciardo and Leclerc as brilliant drivers on the basis of beating Vettel - which is a little paradoxical.
Either Vettel is a decent benchmark or the argument for Ricciardo and Leclerc is a little weak.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schermerhorn »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:02 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:16 am
Invade wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:55 pm

Russell in the Merc might say what about me? :)
Yes and he might upset (an ageing) Hamilton.
Hopefully he will get the call up in 2022.
Hopefully this is the case, but going forwards, how much will Mercedes be committed to F1? Russell may be the victim of being at the right team but at the wrong time? We've seen this happen before.

We have a massive global recession looming, a dwindling F1 audience (bored by the Lewis/Mercedes domination perhaps) and I would wager sponsors would be leaving too if they're not getting the exposure or ROI they feel they deserve.

BMW left and never came back despite their arch rivals Mercedes having a major presence. VAG never committed with Porsche or Audi despite their LeMans success and no American manufacturer ever committed either.

I suspect that Mercedes may downsize and Aston Martin take priority for Toto Wolff. If a budget cap is in place, they can surely get similar big results for much less money?
Well if the powers that be are going to target Mercedes mid season to try and stop them winning then maybe their days in F1 are indeed numbered?

I keep hearing about poor F1 audiences yet what other motorsport series even comes close in popularity, I even thought the audiences went up last season, is it just a thing to say?
If they went up last year, we're still talking about 2019. We're now in 2020 and the world is a much different place.

Ultimately, people get bored of repetition or if there's no competition in an sporting contest. To see the same person win almost all the time will bore people - especially casuals who make up the majority of the audience.

Less TV viewers + no audience at all will turn sponsors away as well. There's less people exposed to their product so why put in the time, effort and money if the ROI is not there anymore?

Hopefully the rules in 2022 shake things up a bit.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

DeepPyro69
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:41 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by DeepPyro69 »

Anyone know if Vettel did get a new chassis?

If so doesn’t look like it did much good ☹️

B

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Invade »

DeepPyro69 wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:31 pm
Anyone know if Vettel did get a new chassis?

If so doesn’t look like it did much good ☹️

B
Both Ferrari drivers struggled with the car. It's not like a new chassis was supposed to magically catapult Vettel ahead of Leclerc in qualifying. But yes, he got a new chassis. And he was behind Leclerc again but only by two tenths in Q2, at a different track.

Somehow, a gap of two tenths to a teammate isn't so peculiar... no?

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
If you’re going to criticise Ricciardo for his performances vs Kvyat and Vergne then that doesn’t look good on Vettel considering how convincingly Ricciardo beat him.
Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.
Am I missing something or did Vettel not have the same car as Leclerc, are we using the cheating to invalidate the match up?

A problem for Vettel is when the driver that beats him gets beaten by another driver, how many drivers have got to look better than Vettel before we may consider he was not even close to being the best of his generation?

Of course the titles and wins will always put him in good stead.
Unfortunately you still don't get it and I can't help you get it!
No I never do.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:58 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:02 pm


Indeed it does not. But when all is said and done in 20 or 30 years time, Vettel's name will go down as a 4 time world champion and his records will still stand (however contentious they may be) whereas Ricciardo will be known as another Buster Douglas unless he becomes a bona fide elite driver and consistent front runner.
This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.
Am I missing something or did Vettel not have the same car as Leclerc, are we using the cheating to invalidate the match up?

A problem for Vettel is when the driver that beats him gets beaten by another driver, how many drivers have got to look better than Vettel before we may consider he was not even close to being the best of his generation?

Of course the titles and wins will always put him in good stead.
Unfortunately you still don't get it and I can't help you get it!
Allow me...
I'm pretty sure the argument here is that Vettel is dismissed as [a not-so-good] someone who lucked into his titles due to the RB of the time being vastly superior to the other cars. At the same time, some people hail Ricciardo and Leclerc as brilliant drivers on the basis of beating Vettel - which is a little paradoxical.
Either Vettel is a decent benchmark or the argument for Ricciardo and Leclerc is a little weak.
If that was for my benefit then I will answer?

The 4 titles don't look quite as good when you get beat by Tom, Dick and Harry, now Ricciardo and Leclerc did get a lot of credit for beating Vettel because he's a good driver, but even these drivers aren't considered the best drivers in F1.
Last edited by pokerman on Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:02 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:16 am
Invade wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:05 am


Yes and he might upset (an ageing) Hamilton.
Hopefully he will get the call up in 2022.
Hopefully this is the case, but going forwards, how much will Mercedes be committed to F1? Russell may be the victim of being at the right team but at the wrong time? We've seen this happen before.

We have a massive global recession looming, a dwindling F1 audience (bored by the Lewis/Mercedes domination perhaps) and I would wager sponsors would be leaving too if they're not getting the exposure or ROI they feel they deserve.

BMW left and never came back despite their arch rivals Mercedes having a major presence. VAG never committed with Porsche or Audi despite their LeMans success and no American manufacturer ever committed either.

I suspect that Mercedes may downsize and Aston Martin take priority for Toto Wolff. If a budget cap is in place, they can surely get similar big results for much less money?
Well if the powers that be are going to target Mercedes mid season to try and stop them winning then maybe their days in F1 are indeed numbered?

I keep hearing about poor F1 audiences yet what other motorsport series even comes close in popularity, I even thought the audiences went up last season, is it just a thing to say?
If they went up last year, we're still talking about 2019. We're now in 2020 and the world is a much different place.

Ultimately, people get bored of repetition or if there's no competition in an sporting contest. To see the same person win almost all the time will bore people - especially casuals who make up the majority of the audience.

Less TV viewers + no audience at all will turn sponsors away as well. There's less people exposed to their product so why put in the time, effort and money if the ROI is not there anymore?

Hopefully the rules in 2022 shake things up a bit.
Again you're not actually backing this up with any actual numbers but just expressing an opinion.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:21 am
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:31 pm
Anyone know if Vettel did get a new chassis?

If so doesn’t look like it did much good ☹️

B
Both Ferrari drivers struggled with the car. It's not like a new chassis was supposed to magically catapult Vettel ahead of Leclerc in qualifying. But yes, he got a new chassis. And he was behind Leclerc again but only by two tenths in Q2, at a different track.

Somehow, a gap of two tenths to a teammate isn't so peculiar... no?
If it's too and fro otherwise it's a consistent beating, the new chassis did nothing, even Vettel said it probably would be the case, it was done out of desperation really and hope.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
tootsie323
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by tootsie323 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:09 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:58 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm


This is what I don't get about people's argument, they are of the opinion that Vettel is a bang average driver who lucked into his titles because of 'Newey Rockets'.

What is funny is that both Ricciardo and Leclerc's reputation comes from beating Vettel.

Also they claim Ferrari were cheating thus leads to all of Leclercs win coming illegally and they don't even feel ridiculous making this arguments.
Am I missing something or did Vettel not have the same car as Leclerc, are we using the cheating to invalidate the match up?

A problem for Vettel is when the driver that beats him gets beaten by another driver, how many drivers have got to look better than Vettel before we may consider he was not even close to being the best of his generation?

Of course the titles and wins will always put him in good stead.
Unfortunately you still don't get it and I can't help you get it!
Allow me...
I'm pretty sure the argument here is that Vettel is dismissed as [a not-so-good] someone who lucked into his titles due to the RB of the time being vastly superior to the other cars. At the same time, some people hail Ricciardo and Leclerc as brilliant drivers on the basis of beating Vettel - which is a little paradoxical.
Either Vettel is a decent benchmark or the argument for Ricciardo and Leclerc is a little weak.
If that was for my benefit then I will answer?

The 4 titles don't look quite as good when you get beat by Tom, Dick and Harry, now Ricciardo and Leclerc did get a lot of credit for beating Vettel because he's a good driver, but even these drivers aren't considered the best drivers in F1.
I'll counter that by swapping out Tom, Dick and Harry for Daniel, Kimi and Charles. Ricciardo is considered pretty much a top-drawer driver and did go toe-to-toe with Verstappen who - alongside Leclerc - is considered the next coming (next generation of WDCs). Using this argument (and I will admit that this is one side of the coin), I'd say that Vettel still sits amongst the top drivers on the whole.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schermerhorn »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:11 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:02 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:16 am

Hopefully he will get the call up in 2022.
Hopefully this is the case, but going forwards, how much will Mercedes be committed to F1? Russell may be the victim of being at the right team but at the wrong time? We've seen this happen before.

We have a massive global recession looming, a dwindling F1 audience (bored by the Lewis/Mercedes domination perhaps) and I would wager sponsors would be leaving too if they're not getting the exposure or ROI they feel they deserve.

BMW left and never came back despite their arch rivals Mercedes having a major presence. VAG never committed with Porsche or Audi despite their LeMans success and no American manufacturer ever committed either.

I suspect that Mercedes may downsize and Aston Martin take priority for Toto Wolff. If a budget cap is in place, they can surely get similar big results for much less money?
Well if the powers that be are going to target Mercedes mid season to try and stop them winning then maybe their days in F1 are indeed numbered?

I keep hearing about poor F1 audiences yet what other motorsport series even comes close in popularity, I even thought the audiences went up last season, is it just a thing to say?
If they went up last year, we're still talking about 2019. We're now in 2020 and the world is a much different place.

Ultimately, people get bored of repetition or if there's no competition in an sporting contest. To see the same person win almost all the time will bore people - especially casuals who make up the majority of the audience.

Less TV viewers + no audience at all will turn sponsors away as well. There's less people exposed to their product so why put in the time, effort and money if the ROI is not there anymore?

Hopefully the rules in 2022 shake things up a bit.
Again you're not actually backing this up with any actual numbers but just expressing an opinion.
The eyes dont lie. What competition did Lewis have today? Barring exceptional circumstances or Bottas being inch perfect, he has zero competition.

I've never seen a driver have it as easy as him. No resistance. No pressure. Nothing major to overcome. It's like Joe Louis versus the "bum of the month" club. Everyone seems to be in a lower category. How can anyone marvel at that and say "wow, he must be the greatest of all time"?
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Invade »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:11 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:02 am


Hopefully this is the case, but going forwards, how much will Mercedes be committed to F1? Russell may be the victim of being at the right team but at the wrong time? We've seen this happen before.

We have a massive global recession looming, a dwindling F1 audience (bored by the Lewis/Mercedes domination perhaps) and I would wager sponsors would be leaving too if they're not getting the exposure or ROI they feel they deserve.

BMW left and never came back despite their arch rivals Mercedes having a major presence. VAG never committed with Porsche or Audi despite their LeMans success and no American manufacturer ever committed either.

I suspect that Mercedes may downsize and Aston Martin take priority for Toto Wolff. If a budget cap is in place, they can surely get similar big results for much less money?
Well if the powers that be are going to target Mercedes mid season to try and stop them winning then maybe their days in F1 are indeed numbered?

I keep hearing about poor F1 audiences yet what other motorsport series even comes close in popularity, I even thought the audiences went up last season, is it just a thing to say?
If they went up last year, we're still talking about 2019. We're now in 2020 and the world is a much different place.

Ultimately, people get bored of repetition or if there's no competition in an sporting contest. To see the same person win almost all the time will bore people - especially casuals who make up the majority of the audience.

Less TV viewers + no audience at all will turn sponsors away as well. There's less people exposed to their product so why put in the time, effort and money if the ROI is not there anymore?

Hopefully the rules in 2022 shake things up a bit.
Again you're not actually backing this up with any actual numbers but just expressing an opinion.
The eyes dont lie. What competition did Lewis have today? Barring exceptional circumstances or Bottas being inch perfect, he has zero competition.

I've never seen a driver have it as easy as him. No resistance. No pressure. Nothing major to overcome. It's like Joe Louis versus the "bum of the month" club. Everyone seems to be in a lower category. How can anyone marvel at that and say "wow, he must be the greatest of all time"?
You seem to be on a bit of a crusade - the signature in such huge blue letters speaks volumes.

Let's hand it to Hamilton today. He was spot on.

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:01 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:09 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:58 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:15 pm

Am I missing something or did Vettel not have the same car as Leclerc, are we using the cheating to invalidate the match up?

A problem for Vettel is when the driver that beats him gets beaten by another driver, how many drivers have got to look better than Vettel before we may consider he was not even close to being the best of his generation?

Of course the titles and wins will always put him in good stead.
Unfortunately you still don't get it and I can't help you get it!
Allow me...
I'm pretty sure the argument here is that Vettel is dismissed as [a not-so-good] someone who lucked into his titles due to the RB of the time being vastly superior to the other cars. At the same time, some people hail Ricciardo and Leclerc as brilliant drivers on the basis of beating Vettel - which is a little paradoxical.
Either Vettel is a decent benchmark or the argument for Ricciardo and Leclerc is a little weak.
If that was for my benefit then I will answer?

The 4 titles don't look quite as good when you get beat by Tom, Dick and Harry, now Ricciardo and Leclerc did get a lot of credit for beating Vettel because he's a good driver, but even these drivers aren't considered the best drivers in F1.
I'll counter that by swapping out Tom, Dick and Harry for Daniel, Kimi and Charles. Ricciardo is considered pretty much a top-drawer driver and did go toe-to-toe with Verstappen who - alongside Leclerc - is considered the next coming (next generation of WDCs). Using this argument (and I will admit that this is one side of the coin), I'd say that Vettel still sits amongst the top drivers on the whole.
The bottom line is that Ricciardo got beat by Verstappen and these drivers are considered lower than Verstappen and Hamilton, with Vettel a little bit lower again, then Alonso comes back into the fold again for next season.

It's not coincidence that Vettel has been dropped by a top team and his options are in the midfield.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35334
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:11 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:02 am


Hopefully this is the case, but going forwards, how much will Mercedes be committed to F1? Russell may be the victim of being at the right team but at the wrong time? We've seen this happen before.

We have a massive global recession looming, a dwindling F1 audience (bored by the Lewis/Mercedes domination perhaps) and I would wager sponsors would be leaving too if they're not getting the exposure or ROI they feel they deserve.

BMW left and never came back despite their arch rivals Mercedes having a major presence. VAG never committed with Porsche or Audi despite their LeMans success and no American manufacturer ever committed either.

I suspect that Mercedes may downsize and Aston Martin take priority for Toto Wolff. If a budget cap is in place, they can surely get similar big results for much less money?
Well if the powers that be are going to target Mercedes mid season to try and stop them winning then maybe their days in F1 are indeed numbered?

I keep hearing about poor F1 audiences yet what other motorsport series even comes close in popularity, I even thought the audiences went up last season, is it just a thing to say?
If they went up last year, we're still talking about 2019. We're now in 2020 and the world is a much different place.

Ultimately, people get bored of repetition or if there's no competition in an sporting contest. To see the same person win almost all the time will bore people - especially casuals who make up the majority of the audience.

Less TV viewers + no audience at all will turn sponsors away as well. There's less people exposed to their product so why put in the time, effort and money if the ROI is not there anymore?

Hopefully the rules in 2022 shake things up a bit.
Again you're not actually backing this up with any actual numbers but just expressing an opinion.
The eyes dont lie. What competition did Lewis have today? Barring exceptional circumstances or Bottas being inch perfect, he has zero competition.

I've never seen a driver have it as easy as him. No resistance. No pressure. Nothing major to overcome. It's like Joe Louis versus the "bum of the month" club. Everyone seems to be in a lower category. How can anyone marvel at that and say "wow, he must be the greatest of all time"?
However you have no proof that it's adversly affecting the F1 audience, the opposite seems to be true.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Invade wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:46 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:11 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm

Well if the powers that be are going to target Mercedes mid season to try and stop them winning then maybe their days in F1 are indeed numbered?

I keep hearing about poor F1 audiences yet what other motorsport series even comes close in popularity, I even thought the audiences went up last season, is it just a thing to say?
If they went up last year, we're still talking about 2019. We're now in 2020 and the world is a much different place.

Ultimately, people get bored of repetition or if there's no competition in an sporting contest. To see the same person win almost all the time will bore people - especially casuals who make up the majority of the audience.

Less TV viewers + no audience at all will turn sponsors away as well. There's less people exposed to their product so why put in the time, effort and money if the ROI is not there anymore?

Hopefully the rules in 2022 shake things up a bit.
Again you're not actually backing this up with any actual numbers but just expressing an opinion.
The eyes dont lie. What competition did Lewis have today? Barring exceptional circumstances or Bottas being inch perfect, he has zero competition.

I've never seen a driver have it as easy as him. No resistance. No pressure. Nothing major to overcome. It's like Joe Louis versus the "bum of the month" club. Everyone seems to be in a lower category. How can anyone marvel at that and say "wow, he must be the greatest of all time"?
You seem to be on a bit of a crusade - the signature in such huge blue letters speaks volumes.

Let's hand it to Hamilton today. He was spot on.
I want to see a sporting contest. Not one guy in the best car run off into the distance and win by a country mile. That's not a crusade. That's just what any fan of any sport wants to see.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

Post Reply