Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

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Vettel or Perez

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Perez
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DOLOMITE
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Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by DOLOMITE »

Thinking about Racing Point/Aston Martin's position. Lets assume when considering this

Lance Stroll is staying
Money isn't an issue - in terms of driver salary and and money they bring in

Perez has gone up in my estimation in recent years. Not in terms of outright speed so much, but a driver who races hard, works with strategy well and ultimately gets results. Doesn't seem to be any BS with him either.

I can see the appeal of Vettel maybe being able to find that extra tenth, maybe steer car development with his experience, the marketing potential (though I'm not sure he has much of a "brand").. a 4x WDC in place of a driver that's never won a race seems pretty straightforward.

So overall do you think the swap would be worth making?
Last edited by DOLOMITE on Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Exediron
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Exediron »

No.

I think Vettel is probably a little quicker in outright pace, but I don't trust him to deliver consistently anymore. Maybe if you have a title contending car, you need to have that extra tenth or whatever -- but I don't see the Aston Martin being that quick right out the gates.

The only reason to go for Vettel over Perez, IMO, is if the shareholders are demanding a WDC to lead the new team.

(And even if you're brining Vettel into the team, the only reason to keep Stroll over Perez is nepotism)
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Yes, whether it would be worth it depends on which Vettel turns up. I'd consider Perez around Kimi level, probably a little better. We saw in 2016 that Vettel at his worst is still a match for Kimi.

So if Vettel in poor form turns up I'd expect it to be fairly close between Perez and Vettel as to who is better, with Vettel costing a lot more that wouldn't be worth it. However if Vettel in decent to good form turns up I dont see it being a particularly close call.

With the conditions of the post meaning I cant drop Lance and money isn't a factor it's a no brainer for me.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

You say that if money isn't an issue then I say yes, otherwise financially it makes no sense, but then again financially it makes no sense to keep Lance Stroll.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by yodasarmpit »

I think this would be the easiest decision to make, of course I'd go with Vettel (Perez shows glimmers of greatness once or twice a season, but that's it - the remainder of the time just another Hulk).

Vettel is a proven winner, and yeah he's had a couple of difficult seasons but in the right environment he should blossom again - although team orders could be interesting :)

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Tufty »

Short answer, no. However. If the theory that Perez has been approached by Red Bull is true, it's a sensible backup option. Experience and marketability are important.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Tufty wrote:Short answer, no. However. If the theory that Perez has been approached by Red Bull is true, it's a sensible backup option. Experience and marketability are important.
If this theory is true, it would make a very interesting debate about whether Red Bull should hire Vettel or Perez - and that the Racing Point seat is more like the reject seat.

Despite Vettel's history with them, I do think Perez might be the better option for Red Bull. He is a driver that you can more safely predict will back off to allow Verstappen to lead the way.

On the Racing Point perspective, I would go for Vettel over Perez. A happy Vettel is a fast Vettel. Give him a team in which he is the clear number one, and, historically, he thrives. Furthermore, I would argue Mercedes cars are a lot more driveable than Ferrari engined cars - particularly those that were illegally powered over the past few years. I predict Vettel to be more like his old self in the Racing Point team.

Furthermore, in order to really challenge for race wins consistently, you need to have one of the best qualifiers in F1. Perez is not known for being quick over one lap, whereas Vettel is right up there with the best.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by kleefton »

I think they may benefit from it. Maybe Seb can correctly point out the car deficiencies and steer development in the right path. I say maybe because I have not seen Vettel really excelling at developing a car. But the guy has driven a lot of excellent F1 cars so he should have an idea about what makes them go fast.

Driving wise, I would not be suprised if Vettel is back to his old 2010.-2013 self now that he has a teammate that simply can't challenge him and no pressure from the tifosi. A change in environment might be the cure that he needed to resurrect his career.

With that said, Papa Stroll is wrong for getting rid of Perez, he should pair up Vettel with Perez and let Jr watch from the sidelines.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Yes. Vettel is clearly better than Perez.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Option or Prime »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Yes. Vettel is clearly better than Perez.
Well Vettel has clearly had better cars than Perez, do we actually know his is currently a better driver?

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by DeepPyro69 »

Nope,

It depends on what Vettel you would be getting and that is too big a question to justify the pay check.

Since his last world championship he hasn’t shown the ability to cope with the pressure of getting another when he doesn’t have a stand out car. He’s been beaten twice by new teammates.

Perez is not a world champion, but currently he is a close enough match to Vettel that you can’t justify the massive pay increase Vettel would demand.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Option or Prime wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Yes. Vettel is clearly better than Perez.
Well Vettel has clearly had better cars than Perez, do we actually know his is currently a better driver?
We don't know for sure, of course. IMO, however, Perez is certainly not better than Webber or Räikkönen. And while Vettel is not among the top 4 drivers of the current grid, he is certainly not far behind.

Thus, I would clearly take Vettel over Perez.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Remmirath »

I wouldn't be inclined to take Vettel over Perez on strength of recent performances, no. It's not clear exactly how much better Vettel ever was (probably a noticeable amount), but he's not been showing it lately, and I think Perez has been consistently underrated. But I can see the allure for Aston Martin of being able to say they have a multiple world championship winning driver driving for them.

The big question, albeit with a cynical-yet-obvious answer, is why they didn't replace Stroll with Vettel...
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by j man »

If they could get themselves the Vettel of 2010-2013 then sure. But there's nothing about his performances in the last few years that tells me Racing Point should boot out a driver who has done a great job for them over a number of years to put him in the car. Error-prone, a combustible temper inside the car, a total lack of responsibility for his own mistakes and a raw pace that is strong but nothing out of the ordinary; these are not traits that justify the likely financial investment.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by LBET »

Yes.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

I'd have Vettel. I think he still has strong raw pace. Also, outside of the Ferrari pressure cooker I think he'd make fewer errors while being motivated to prove himself all over again.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by bourbon19 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Yes. Vettel is clearly better than Perez.
Well Vettel has clearly had better cars than Perez, do we actually know his is currently a better driver?
It is always the car + driver. But here, you have a proven, consecutive 4X WDC - and some of those did not come easy (2010/2012). With Perez, we don't know what he'd do or deliver in a crunch - he's never contended for a WDC under pressure or otherwise.

In any case Vettel would be my choice for the drive over Perez.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Noni »

I've lost my faith in Vettel, love him too bits, but makes too many mistakes.

Perez for me 100 %..

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Harpo »

The only reason to hire Vettel is for publicity. We are Aston Martin and our leading driver is a 4 times WDC (note that if the team was still named Racing Point next years, the replacement of one driver by Vettel wouldn't even be considered).
That could prove to be counterproductive, the 4 times WDC not being up to the task, just like he is since leaving his Red Bull craddle.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Fiki »

No. What do we know Vettel to be capable of, that is better than what we know Perez to be capable of? Being available is one thing, but how well a driver is going to suit this/next year's car is anybody's guess.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Actually, Perez is quite error-prone as well.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Actually, Perez is quite error-prone as well.
But not as much as Vettel in recent times. Checo has made some errors mainly when trying to overtake but Vettel sometimes has misjudgments even. For eg; spinning off at Turn 3 during Austrian Grand Prix thinking there was space on the inside of the corner.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Actually, Perez is quite error-prone as well.
But not as much as Vettel in recent times. Checo has made some errors mainly when trying to overtake but Vettel sometimes has misjudgments even. For eg; spinning off at Turn 3 during Austrian Grand Prix thinking there was space on the inside of the corner.
You mean like Perez misjudging his move on the Red Bull in Styria? ;-)

I am not sure your statement holds, esp. if the time with Ocon is included ...

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

So, today Vettel beat Perez despite
- being in the slower car,
- going off-track twice when fighting with Albon ...

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Mort Canard »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:So, today Vettel beat Perez despite
- being in the slower car,
- going off-track twice when fighting with Albon ...
Stock in Sergio went down today and Seb's value probably increased.

Would love to see Vettel in a car with Merc power and Merc design even if it's a year old technology.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by PT03 »

What? swap a driver who has only held his seat because of his sponsors cash for a Multi World Champion?
Hmmmm...........let me think.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Mort Canard »

PT03 wrote:What? swap a driver who has only held his seat because of his sponsors cash for a Multi World Champion?
Hmmmm...........let me think.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by j man »

A poor weekend for Perez. It'll take more than one race to sway my viewpoint however, Sergio has served the team well over the years and has stood by them through some pretty rough times, so to boot him out so unceremoniously would be deeply unfair in my opinion.

I'd swap Vettel for Stroll in a heartbeat. However Stroll's statement that "I don't care who my team mate is" when asked about the prospect about the team signing Vettel sort of confirms that his seat is secure. Or he has vastly over-inflated sense of entitlement for a driver who has been comfortably outperformed in his spell with the team so far.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by oz_karter »

I probably would take the punt on Vettel for a couple of reasons.

He is a former 4x world champion and still commands attention, which will bring attention and credibility to the team. This is especially useful given its Aston Martin's foray into modern F1 at a team level. It would also undoubtedly be a drawcard for attracting other sponsors and media attention.

Vettel has not performed well at Ferrari, especially in recent seasons. But it's not like he's forgotten how to drive. I think a fresh start somewhere with less pressure and a different environment may change his performance for the better. Maybe not, but it's worth the risk.

Perez is a consistent performer (usually), but he's hardly set the world on fire. Vettel has more potential to grab a big result in my opinion.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Exediron »

I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.
There's rumours of Perez being ill.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by DOLOMITE »

[row][/row]
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.
There's rumours of Perez being ill.
Interesting but it's a one off and to be fair to him, Stroll has shown well in the wet before so it may be 100% legit. He has won titles in lower series, he knows how to drive and I wouldn't expect a massive gap to Perez.

But if a pattern emerges I too would be sceptical.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Teddy007 »

Would I choose Perez over Vettel? Nope. I'm not a major Vettel fan but I would choose him over Perez.

The best things Perez has done in his career is usually down to looking after the tyres and his smoother driving style. Would I rate him as a possible champion? Nope.

Considering how Charles is supposed to be the next raw/young talent.. Vettel isnt' being whitewashed by him. Which is one of the reasons there has been inter team battles. Perez is a safe option for teams but for the big boys? No.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.
There's rumours of Perez being ill.
https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/18/per ... g-session/

Perez felt a bit dizzy in qualifying and I think that was it.

But I think given that both on Saturday and Sunday Stroll looked a fair bit better, I think this for once showed that he had the pace to beat Perez. I think this is the only time ever Stroll has very comfortably outperformed a team mate that hasn't had a race full of mistakes or errors / bad luck?

The margin in the end was huge. Pretty much 30 seconds which was the same between Bottas and Hamilton until Hamilton pitted. I'm not convinced that Racing point is set up right for the race compared to qualifying. Both showed nowhere near the pace they did in qualifying and I don't think it is totally down to the drivers under performing.

If Stroll can continue to look this good, or at least decent, then I think as harsh as it is on Perez, it may be worth the chance to sign Vettel. I'm not sure why I still have confidence with Vettel really. But if he goes to a new team that is reasonably strong, he may be able to have another Ferrari 2015 year. He still shows to me that he has more pace than Perez ever does both in qualifying and in the race, but consistency is his problem. We just can't confirm if he has the ability to get back on form. But in a new environment and not fighting at the very top with less pressure, he may well be able to get the best out of the car.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by pokerman »

DOLOMITE wrote:]
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.
There's rumours of Perez being ill.
Interesting but it's a one off and to be fair to him, Stroll has shown well in the wet before so it may be 100% legit. He has won titles in lower series, he knows how to drive and I wouldn't expect a massive gap to Perez.

But if a pattern emerges I too would be sceptical.
Not sure about the wet reference, it was just damp for a few laps.
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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Charles LeBrad »

I agree that Vettel responds to hugs, and needs to feel the love in order to perform. Would I replace Perez with Vettel? No, but I Would do anything to have Vettel replace Stroll. I think Perez / Vettel would be a decent lineup

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by j man »

Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.
This was on my mind as well, it is odd to see Stroll suddenly outperform Perez so comprehensively. I don't honestly believe though that the team would compromise their main points-scorer when 2nd in the constructors' table is up for grabs. Stroll Sr. is not the only major investor in the team and I doubt the rest of the consortium would tolerate such a move. It's more likely that Perez just had a poor weekend.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by ETM3 »

Hope they make the swap. Haas could use Checo and his sponsors. :)

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Invade »

Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.

Ahhh I get it - they spiked Sergio's drink.

The timing is curious, to say the least. It is early in the season though and neither driver has had any time to demonstrate any real superiority. Stroll is only 21 and presumably still in the midst of quite serious improvement, but I don't expect this level of relative dominance going forward with any level of consistency - that would be very suspicious.

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Re: Would you swap Perez for Vettel?

Post by Siao7 »

Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:I know this is a little bit of a conspiracy theory, but...

Does anyone else wonder why, as soon as rumors are starting to swirl that Vettel is replacing Perez, Stroll is suddenly solidly beating Perez for the first time in his career? I don't really want to think they're giving Stroll a better car to make their decision look good, but I really don't trust this Lawrence Stroll-led consortium to play fair.

Ahhh I get it - they spiked Sergio's drink.

The timing is curious, to say the least. It is early in the season though and neither driver has had any time to demonstrate any real superiority. Stroll is only 21 and presumably still in the midst of quite serious improvement, but I don't expect this level of relative dominance going forward with any level of consistency - that would be very suspicious.
Maybe it is also psychological, if Checo is supposed to be booted after all he's done for the team the last few years, I'd imagine he'd be gutted.

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