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Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:11 am
by wire2004
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53384460
Well. Its finally happened. Renault have got salty and have protested the racing point cars.
More specifically. The front and rear break ducts have been impounded by the Styrian GP stewards. And have asked Mercedes to provide them with there front and rear break ducts from last years car for examination.
Thoughts
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:58 am
by Black_Flag_11
The fact that's it's such a specific part of the car and not just the overall design makes it sound more likely that they have something. It will be interesting to see what information comes out of this as it unfolds.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:40 am
by Clarky
@andrewbensonf1
Racing Point "extremely disappointed" in "misconceived and poorly informed protest. Any & all suggestion of wrongdoing is firmly rejected". Team "co-operated with FIA and satisfactorily answered all questions re origins of designs of RP20". "Confident" protest will be dismissed
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:46 am
by Exediron
Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.
This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:51 am
by Black_Flag_11
Exediron wrote:Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.
This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
I can see it now:
BREAKING: Racing Point Car Illegal Confirms FIA.
FIA spokesperson quoted as saying "well when we initially cleared them of wrong doing we hadn't looked at the break duct design, we actually didnt have access to any of the designs".
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:34 pm
by Alienturnedhuman
If Renault are trying to market themselves as future championship contenders then they shouldn't be drawing attention to the fact that they can't even beat last year's Mercedes.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:18 pm
by F1 MERCENARY
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Exediron wrote:Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.
This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
I can see it now:
BREAKING: Racing Point Car Illegal Confirms FIA.
FIA spokesperson quoted as saying "well when we initially cleared them of wrong doing we hadn't looked at the break duct design, we actually didnt have access to any of the designs".
Makes you wonder HOW on earth Renault knew something was up with the RP Brake Ducts to such a specific degree.
I get the distinct aroma of Spygate for some reason.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:42 pm
by j man
F1 MERCENARY wrote:Black_Flag_11 wrote:Exediron wrote:Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.
This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
I can see it now:
BREAKING: Racing Point Car Illegal Confirms FIA.
FIA spokesperson quoted as saying "well when we initially cleared them of wrong doing we hadn't looked at the break duct design, we actually didnt have access to any of the designs".
Makes you wonder HOW on earth Renault knew something was up with the RP Brake Ducts to such a specific degree.
I get the distinct aroma of Spygate for some reason.
Probably the same reason RP were able to reverse-engineer the Mercedes in the first place: all the teams spy on each other relentlessly and take every opportunity to photograph every square inch of their competitors' cars.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:24 pm
by Zazu
Maybe Renault have evidence Mercedes sold the parts/design rather than it being reverse engineered
Also, I don't think it's salty at all. All teams protest each other if they think the rules have been broken
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:51 pm
by JN23
https://t.co/XreI3y54aI?amp=1
FIA have said that they didn’t look at the brake ducts when they went to the Racing Point factory in pre-season, which seems a bit of an oversight.
I’ve also read today that they hope to have a decision in the run up to the British Grand Prix.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:29 pm
by Black_Flag_11
Zazu wrote:Maybe Renault have evidence Mercedes sold the parts/design rather than it being reverse engineered
Also, I don't think it's salty at all. All teams protest each other if they think the rules have been broken
Apparently that part has been chosen because while it would be possible to copy wings/bodywork etc from pictures the internal workings and layout of the brake ducts are not something teams would have pictures of, so there would be some explaining to do if it was identical to the '19 Merc.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:34 pm
by DeepPyro69
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Zazu wrote:Apparently that part has been chosen because while it would be possible to copy wings/bodywork etc from pictures the internal workings and layout of the brake ducts are not something teams would have pictures of, so there would be some explaining to do if it was identical to the '19 Merc.
True, but definitely leads to the question to how does Renault have access to that much information about a competitors IP to be able to raise an objection to it?
Spygate mk2?
B
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:32 pm
by Black_Flag_11
DeepPyro69 wrote:Black_Flag_11 wrote:Zazu wrote:Apparently that part has been chosen because while it would be possible to copy wings/bodywork etc from pictures the internal workings and layout of the brake ducts are not something teams would have pictures of, so there would be some explaining to do if it was identical to the '19 Merc.
True, but definitely leads to the question to how does Renault have access to that much information about a competitors IP to be able to raise an objection to it?
Spygate mk2?
B
I didnt include it because I couldn't remember who posted the tweet and it came across as repeating hearsay, fairly sure it was a journalist though, but they alleged it was a Racing Point defector who tipped them off.
Officially all they've said is:
“We actually believe Racing Point have received drawings and parts which have been used to build their car this year,” former FIA man turned Renault executive director Marcin Budkowski told Sky F1.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... -drawings/
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:32 am
by JN23
FIA have also said that they expect Renault to protest at every race until this is sorted.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:15 pm
by j man
The other complication I've been hearing is it was entirely legal to buy brake ducts from another team until this year. So if Racing Point "bought" the design last year before the rule change then it's harder to rule against them. It seems a bit of a grey area as they can't be expected to "forget" a design they've inherited in the past.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:41 pm
by wire2004
So renault know they have a rubbish car and are doing everything they can to get a free position in the championship.
Another protest has been made on the racing points legality of their cars.
Pathetic by Renault to be honnest. Just build a better car.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:19 pm
by j man
wire2004 wrote:So renault know they have a rubbish car and are doing everything they can to get a free position in the championship.
Another protest has been made on the racing points legality of their cars.
Pathetic by Renault to be honnest. Just build a better car.
Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:43 pm
by oz_karter
wire2004 wrote:So renault know they have a rubbish car and are doing everything they can to get a free position in the championship.
Another protest has been made on the racing points legality of their cars.
Pathetic by Renault to be honnest. Just build a better car.
While I agree that Renault should build a better car, the rules and the protest system exist for a reason. F1 is meant to be about constructors designing and building their own cars. In this case it appears RP have very much copied the previous Mercedes and while taking inspiration is not against the rules, directly using the design of another car is.
Renault probably have more motivation for this protest because they are clearly behind the RP cars on the grid, but it also seems they have some specific information that drawings or something similar have exchanged hands (this is alluded to in the FIA responses). If that is the case then it definitely should be punished.
F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and the rules need to be enforced to a high standard.
I don't agree that it is pathetic.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:26 pm
by wire2004
Then if drawings have been exchanged as you have said and apparently been alluded to by the fia. Then we have a major problem.
We have racing point and Mercedes gp who would be excluded from the championship for collusion. And renault would have to be excluded for spying and/or espionage. And renault would be in even more trouble than racing point and Mercedes as well in this case. Because who are they getting the information from is it a Renault employee who is working undercover at racing point. Is it a racing point employee giving them the information.
Surely. If racing point and Mercedes are to be found guilty. The question then becomes how did renault get this information in the first place. Because it seems all too fishy to me. How would a team know that another team has the drawings of another team without spying on them themselves.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:54 pm
by LBET
wire2004 wrote:Then if drawings have been exchanged as you have said and apparently been alluded to by the fia. Then we have a major problem.
We have racing point and Mercedes gp who would be excluded from the championship for collusion. And renault would have to be excluded for spying and/or espionage. And renault would be in even more trouble than racing point and Mercedes as well in this case. Because who are they getting the information from is it a Renault employee who is working undercover at racing point. Is it a racing point employee giving them the information.
Surely. If racing point and Mercedes are to be found guilty. The question then becomes how did renault get this information in the first place. Because it seems all too fishy to me. How would a team know that another team has the drawings of another team without spying on them themselves.
I would need some evidence as speculation could point to big foot and pinocchio building brake ducts at Geppetto's place (and then some fine shoes of course). Seriously though, RP would have to be bonkers to brake the rules (pun intended) and have the evidence painted pink and run around a race track all weekend long. Human nature would make them want to hide it no?
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:53 am
by tootsie323
j man wrote:Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.
This is the opinion of the BBC (radio 5 live) team; they voiced pretty much this on one of their race weekend podcasts.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:58 am
by Teddy007
tootsie323 wrote:j man wrote:Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.
This is the opinion of the BBC (radio 5 live) team; they voiced pretty much this on one of their race weekend podcasts.
And there we have one major problem right away. Journalists giving their opinion which in all honesty, means nothing like their misleading headlines. They are not regulators or engineers.
Most teams by now usually clear things with the FIA before hand (like the DAS system). Which the FIA already deemed fine for this season. RBR still protested it for "clarification" which usually translates to "lets give this another shot".
They have to consider that costing the remove of this tech is usually expensive and especially if everything is built around it. So most of them are clued up in to making sure the FIA are fully aware of these designs... unless they are doing it under the radar.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:15 pm
by JN23
Teddy007 wrote:tootsie323 wrote:j man wrote:Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.
This is the opinion of the BBC (radio 5 live) team; they voiced pretty much this on one of their race weekend podcasts.
And there we have one major problem right away. Journalists giving their opinion which in all honesty, means nothing like their misleading headlines. They are not regulators or engineers.
Most teams by now usually clear things with the FIA before hand (like the DAS system). Which the FIA already deemed fine for this season. RBR still protested it for "clarification" which usually translates to "lets give this another shot".
They have to consider that costing the remove of this tech is usually expensive and especially if everything is built around it. So most of them are clued up in to making sure the FIA are fully aware of these designs... unless they are doing it under the radar.
Not really sure what's the problem with journalists giving their opinion on something like this?
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:43 pm
by j man
If the Racing Point is ruled legal, I do look forward to seeing a field of 2020-spec Mercedes racing each other next season.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:18 am
by Asphalt_World
Reports coming in through the German media that Racing Point have admitted buying a set of Mercedes 2019 brake ducts, before these items became listed parts.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:09 am
by JN23
It also seems like there will be a meeting tomorrow to decide the case.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:59 am
by JN23
Protest upheld!
Racing Points lose 15 points from the Styrian Grand Prix and receive reprimands for Hungary and Britain.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:01 am
by JN23
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:12 am
by Exediron
Short version: Racing Point's brake ducts are derived from exact copies of 2019 Mercedes brake ducts, and Racing Point has admitted to purchasing the designs. The stewards have ruled that it does not matter if they were legal listed parts when purchased -- they are not legal listed parts for a 2020 car, and they were not designed in principle by Racing Point.
I'm a little surprised, but it does bear noting that at the time Racing Point submitted its documents to the FIA in pre-season to verify that their car was legal, it was legal. The change of brake ducts to a listed part had not taken effect yet. This ruling allows the stewards to find the car illegal without saying the FIA made a mistake when they originally gave it a pass.
EDIT: I find the penalty a bit odd, however. If the car was illegal in Styria -- and all parties have agreed it was identical in Hungary and Great Britain, where the protest was also upheld -- why lost points for one race and a fine for the other? Why not the same for both weekends?
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:13 am
by Asphalt_World
Amazing, Renault win. kind of!
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:16 am
by tootsie323
Exediron wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:12 am
Short version: Racing Point's brake ducts are derived from exact copies of 2019 Mercedes brake ducts, and Racing Point has admitted to purchasing the designs. The stewards have ruled that it does not matter if they were legal listed parts when purchased -- they are not legal listed parts for a 2020 car, and they were not designed in principle by Racing Point.
I'm a little surprised, but it does bear noting that at the time Racing Point submitted its documents to the FIA in pre-season to verify that their car was legal, it was legal. The change of brake ducts to a listed part had not taken effect yet. This ruling allows the stewards to find the car illegal without saying the FIA made a mistake when they originally gave it a pass.
EDIT: I find the penalty a bit odd, however. If the car was illegal in Styria -- and all parties have agreed it was identical in Hungary and Great Britain, where the protest was also upheld -- why lost points for one race and a fine for the other? Why not the same for both weekends?
If I read this correctly I'd be more than a little miffed if I were Racing Point, have checked - and had verified - the legality of the brake ducts - prior to the season. Maybe I'm missing something...
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:19 am
by Invade
Exediron wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:12 am
Short version: Racing Point's brake ducts are derived from exact copies of 2019 Mercedes brake ducts, and Racing Point has admitted to purchasing the designs. The stewards have ruled that it does not matter if they were legal listed parts when purchased -- they are not legal listed parts for a 2020 car, and they were not designed in principle by Racing Point.
I'm a little surprised, but it does bear noting that at the time Racing Point submitted its documents to the FIA in pre-season to verify that their car was legal, it was legal. The change of brake ducts to a listed part had not taken effect yet. This ruling allows the stewards to find the car illegal without saying the FIA made a mistake when they originally gave it a pass.
EDIT: I find the penalty a bit odd, however. If the car was illegal in Styria -- and all parties have agreed it was identical in Hungary and Great Britain, where the protest was also upheld -- why lost points for one race and a fine for the other? Why not the same for both weekends?
Well put. I doubt we've seen the end of this mess. This decision also seems to go against the implicit suggestions made in response to the 'copying' by Tombazis and Brawn.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:25 am
by Flash2k11
Renault haven't really won at all here unless those 15 points are the difference between them and RP at the end of the year.
Reading that makes it look like the stewards are pointing most of the finger of blame at the FIA and the process of checking the car while it was being developed, something RP have invited them to do every step of the way.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:27 am
by Invade
I keep mixing up the quote button for the edit button... Ignore this.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:31 am
by mikeyg123
Basically, once again for a myriad of reasons the FIA shows it does not have competency to police the sport. They need to make big changes there.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:39 am
by Herb
This is really interesting.
It is the Rear Brake Ducts only that are illegal. They got a full set of CAD drawings last year, but installed and worked on the Fronts last year, so that means they were 'designed' by RP for 2020.
RBDs went straight onto the car this year with minimal differences, so can't be classed as 'designed' by RP.
Reading between the lines, seems like the 15 points is the penalty for the full season - they will just get a reprimand for each race they use the RBDs. That's not really an incentive to replace them.
It is a Sporting infraction, not a Technical infraction, so disqualification is out of the window.
This is definitely not a win for Renault.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:40 am
by Option or Prime
Is that it then?
You take your medcine and set up for the next GP. No changes to the car. What happens about the brake duct? Is it legal now?
Whats the point? Or should I say what's the racing point?
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:16 am
by Greenman
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:31 am
Basically, once again for a myriad of reasons the FIA shows it does not have competency to police the sport. They need to make big changes there.
Totally agree.
.
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:34 am
by Siao7
Herb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:39 am
This is really interesting.
It is the Rear Brake Ducts only that are illegal. They got a full set of CAD drawings last year, but installed and worked on the Fronts last year, so that means they were 'designed' by RP for 2020.
RBDs went straight onto the car this year with minimal differences, so can't be classed as 'designed' by RP.
Reading between the lines, seems like the 15 points is the penalty for the full season - they will just get a reprimand for each race they use the RBDs. That's not really an incentive to replace them.
It is a Sporting infraction, not a Technical infraction, so disqualification is out of the window.
This is definitely not a win for Renault.
I don't get how it is a Sporting infraction instead of a Technical infraction. It is a design infraction, hence a technical one. Or am I getting this completely wrong?
Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:48 am
by Herb
Siao7 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:34 am
Herb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:39 am
This is really interesting.
It is the Rear Brake Ducts only that are illegal. They got a full set of CAD drawings last year, but installed and worked on the Fronts last year, so that means they were 'designed' by RP for 2020.
RBDs went straight onto the car this year with minimal differences, so can't be classed as 'designed' by RP.
Reading between the lines, seems like the 15 points is the penalty for the full season - they will just get a reprimand for each race they use the RBDs. That's not really an incentive to replace them.
It is a Sporting infraction, not a Technical infraction, so disqualification is out of the window.
This is definitely not a win for Renault.
I don't get how it is a Sporting infraction instead of a Technical infraction. It is a design infraction, hence a technical one. Or am I getting this completely wrong?
The Listed Parts are documented in Appendix 6 the Sporting Regulations.
So basically I think it's the transfer of IP from Merc to RP that has fallen fowl of the regulations rather than anything on the car that is illegal.