Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

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Flash2k11
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Flash2k11 »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:34 am
Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:39 am
This is really interesting.

It is the Rear Brake Ducts only that are illegal. They got a full set of CAD drawings last year, but installed and worked on the Fronts last year, so that means they were 'designed' by RP for 2020.

RBDs went straight onto the car this year with minimal differences, so can't be classed as 'designed' by RP.

Reading between the lines, seems like the 15 points is the penalty for the full season - they will just get a reprimand for each race they use the RBDs. That's not really an incentive to replace them.

It is a Sporting infraction, not a Technical infraction, so disqualification is out of the window.

This is definitely not a win for Renault.
I don't get how it is a Sporting infraction instead of a Technical infraction. It is a design infraction, hence a technical one. Or am I getting this completely wrong?
The actual design of the RBD complies with the technical regulations. How that design was obtained has been deemed to be in breach of the sporting regulations, and most of that blame seems to lie with the FIA for not checking the car properly during the design process despite being invited to do so by RP every step of the way.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Herb »

For Info, this is the list:

Image
Source: FIA

Here's the full PDF:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -07-29.pdf

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Siao7 »

Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:48 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:34 am
Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:39 am
This is really interesting.

It is the Rear Brake Ducts only that are illegal. They got a full set of CAD drawings last year, but installed and worked on the Fronts last year, so that means they were 'designed' by RP for 2020.

RBDs went straight onto the car this year with minimal differences, so can't be classed as 'designed' by RP.

Reading between the lines, seems like the 15 points is the penalty for the full season - they will just get a reprimand for each race they use the RBDs. That's not really an incentive to replace them.

It is a Sporting infraction, not a Technical infraction, so disqualification is out of the window.

This is definitely not a win for Renault.
I don't get how it is a Sporting infraction instead of a Technical infraction. It is a design infraction, hence a technical one. Or am I getting this completely wrong?
The Listed Parts are documented in Appendix 6 the Sporting Regulations.

So basically I think it's the transfer of IP from Merc to RP that has fallen fowl of the regulations rather than anything on the car that is illegal.
Got it, thanks. Still feels wrong, it is a component, a technical part. Bizarre

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Siao7 »

Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:54 am
For Info, this is the list:

Image
Source: FIA

Here's the full PDF:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -07-29.pdf
Which is listing all the Tech regs! Haha, it should have been a Tech reg infraction in my view.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Siao7 »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:54 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:34 am
Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:39 am
This is really interesting.

It is the Rear Brake Ducts only that are illegal. They got a full set of CAD drawings last year, but installed and worked on the Fronts last year, so that means they were 'designed' by RP for 2020.

RBDs went straight onto the car this year with minimal differences, so can't be classed as 'designed' by RP.

Reading between the lines, seems like the 15 points is the penalty for the full season - they will just get a reprimand for each race they use the RBDs. That's not really an incentive to replace them.

It is a Sporting infraction, not a Technical infraction, so disqualification is out of the window.

This is definitely not a win for Renault.
I don't get how it is a Sporting infraction instead of a Technical infraction. It is a design infraction, hence a technical one. Or am I getting this completely wrong?
The actual design of the RBD complies with the technical regulations. How that design was obtained has been deemed to be in breach of the sporting regulations, and most of that blame seems to lie with the FIA for not checking the car properly during the design process despite being invited to do so by RP every step of the way.
Thanks Flash2k11

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Herb »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:57 am
Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:54 am
For Info, this is the list:

Image
Source: FIA

Here's the full PDF:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -07-29.pdf
Which is listing all the Tech regs! Haha, it should have been a Tech reg infraction in my view.
I see the logic.

The ducts are completely legal, how they got on the car is not.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Siao7 »

Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:58 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:57 am
Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:54 am
For Info, this is the list:

Image
Source: FIA

Here's the full PDF:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -07-29.pdf
Which is listing all the Tech regs! Haha, it should have been a Tech reg infraction in my view.
I see the logic.

The ducts are completely legal, how they got on the car is not.
Yes, you are right actually.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Flash2k11 »

Herb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:58 am

I see the logic.

The ducts are completely legal, how they got on the car is not.
Yes, thats a more succint way of saying it lol
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Siao7 »

So is that it, reprimand each race and they can continue using it?

At which point does a reprimand become an offence? Surely you can't have 15 "yellow cards"...

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by UnlikeUday »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:29 am
So is that it, reprimand each race and they can continue using it?

At which point does a reprimand become an offence? Surely you can't have 15 "yellow cards"...
Yeah. I too would like some elaboration on the reprimand that they've got and may get in the races to come.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Asphalt_World »

McLaren's Zak Brown on Racing Point verdict: "They claimed they had copied the car via photography. It's clear from reading the document that is BS. So you have to question everything else around the car."

This isn't over by a long way!
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

Funny to hear Ferrari asking for clarification on something dubious :lol:

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Clarky »

We did nothing wrong insists Szafnauer

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gIcyS.html

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:56 pm
Funny to hear Ferrari asking for clarification on something dubious :lol:
That would be for most teams frankly!

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by UnlikeUday »

Assuming Vettel hasn't still signed for AM for 2021, would he consider now doing so? I believe AM's car was going to be an evolution of this year's car. Since FIA are going to create rules to prevent cloning of cars, how competitive the AM car will now be for Vettel to find it lucrative?
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:23 pm
Assuming Vettel hasn't still signed for AM for 2021, would he consider now doing so? I believe AM's car was going to be an evolution of this year's car. Since FIA are going to create rules to prevent cloning of cars, how competitive the AM car will now be for Vettel to find it lucrative?
If Vettel signs for them, it's for the potential of 2022, not 2021.

That said I would say they're still in a good position for next year, development is fairly restricted and whilst they can be punished this season they cant be forced to unlearn what they now know.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Zazu »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:50 pm
McLaren's Zak Brown on Racing Point verdict: "They claimed they had copied the car via photography. It's clear from reading the document that is BS. So you have to question everything else around the car."

This isn't over by a long way!
It was highly probable Mercedes had just sold/given the designs and I find it unbelievable they have been found guilty of doing so, lying about it and the only penalty is a paltry fine and the loss of a handful of points.

This is just as bad as the Ferrari situation. I can't think of another sport where this stuff happens

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zazu wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:36 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:50 pm
McLaren's Zak Brown on Racing Point verdict: "They claimed they had copied the car via photography. It's clear from reading the document that is BS. So you have to question everything else around the car."

This isn't over by a long way!
It was highly probable Mercedes had just sold/given the designs and I find it unbelievable they have been found guilty of doing so, lying about it and the only penalty is a paltry fine and the loss of a handful of points.

This is just as bad as the Ferrari situation. I can't think of another sport where this stuff happens
So Racing Point don't deny that but they bought the spec for the brake duct past year when that was in legal in the rules to do so. In fairness it is a really grey area. I blame the FIA who have nodded this all through previously.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Flash2k11 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
Zazu wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:36 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:50 pm
McLaren's Zak Brown on Racing Point verdict: "They claimed they had copied the car via photography. It's clear from reading the document that is BS. So you have to question everything else around the car."

This isn't over by a long way!
It was highly probable Mercedes had just sold/given the designs and I find it unbelievable they have been found guilty of doing so, lying about it and the only penalty is a paltry fine and the loss of a handful of points.

This is just as bad as the Ferrari situation. I can't think of another sport where this stuff happens
So Racing Point don't deny that but they bought the spec for the brake duct past year when that was in legal in the rules to do so. In fairness it is a really grey area. I blame the FIA who have nodded this all through previously.
The really stupid bit being had they ran the Merc 2019 RBD in 2019 rather than design their own for last year and then using an 'inspired' design for 2020, there would have been no case to answer at all.

The FIA have had their pants pulled down big time with this.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Lotus49 »

So not salty at all, they were right, the RBD are illegal for RP to run this year because they didn't design them at all unlike they initially claimed.

The FIA just can't stop them running them anyway without excessively draconian (Fire entire design team and provide fresh design) or potentially dangerous penalty (Force a new suboptimal design) because the current RP design team can't be expected to forget the best solution for the RBD, that being the Merc designed one so helpfully provided both this year (a stated breach of SR but not one deemed bad enough to warrant punishment by the stewards) and last year (legally) by Aston Martin shareholder Toto and friends at Mercedes.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by spiritone »

Yeah F1 isn't in enough trouble with a season scrambled by covid. Lets just keep protesting until we're all in the toilet. In a season when the teams are lucky to even have a season now they are going to protest each other to death. Bad enough on this forum with members arguing about different driver penalties. Now were going to spend our time trying to get teams eliminated. We need more teams not less. Just Bullshit

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by spiritone »

If i might add the FIA has been a joke for quite awhile. This just adds to it. Secret Ferrari settlement. JOKE.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

Ferrari are appealing. Renault and McLaren expected to join them.

Racing Point also considering an appeal.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by BMWSauber84 »

I can't see this punishment surviving the appeals. There is enough grey area there I feel for RP to successfully appeal.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Lotus49 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:13 pm
I can't see this punishment surviving the appeals. There is enough grey area there I feel for RP to successfully appeal.
And enough grey area to potentially have them removed from the WCC if the others make a strong enough case that running a listed part designed by another constructor makes RP at least in part a customer car and therefore not entitled to any slice of the prize pool as a constructor in their own right because Mercedes aren't some 3rd party, they are a rival in the same WCC.

No way they'd have appealed and risked that, they got a slap on the wrist, but now the others have then I guess they may as well.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Lotus49 »

Essentially we know they didn't design the RBD, a rival constructor did, so on what basis are RP eligible for prize money this year in the WCC if we're all agreed they are running a part they were supposed to do themselves or through a 3rd party but did not?

You can reasonably argue not being able to make them change them for a few reasons but that doesn't mean you have to pay them their prize money just because you'e scared the team will fold or AM will pull the plug.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Option or Prime »

Lotus49 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:48 pm
Essentially we know they didn't design the RBD, a rival constructor did, so on what basis are RP eligible for prize money this year in the WCC if we're all agreed they are running a part they were supposed to do themselves or through a 3rd party but did not?

You can reasonably argue not being able to make them change them for a few reasons but that doesn't mean you have to pay them their prize money just because you'e scared the team will fold or AM will pull the plug.
FIA have ensured that this will go nowhere by allowing Haas to run a Ferrari copy. Then offering lawyers to have a field day with Technical Regs and Sporting regs. Add to that the complete inability to steward races with credibility the FIA is killing the sport.

We don't even know if Mercedes will stay in the sport yet. If Mercedes don't continue the next WDC will be devalued, Max will beat a crippled Ferrari, an engineless McLaren and Renault.
Its a total mess.

Switch to Formula E or e-sports and pick a team to follow now!
Last edited by Option or Prime on Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Lotus49 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:28 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:13 pm
I can't see this punishment surviving the appeals. There is enough grey area there I feel for RP to successfully appeal.
And enough grey area to potentially have them removed from the WCC if the others make a strong enough case that running a listed part designed by another constructor makes RP at least in part a customer car and therefore not entitled to any slice of the prize pool as a constructor in their own right because Mercedes aren't some 3rd party, they are a rival in the same WCC.

No way they'd have appealed and risked that, they got a slap on the wrist, but now the others have then I guess they may as well.
Ultimately though they haven't breached any technical regulations, and the sporting infringement they have nailed them on seems extremely flimsy.

Yes they have absolutely broken the "spirit" of the regs, but I'm almost certain that RP's appeal has more chance of success than the Renault/McLaren/Ferrari appeal.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Lotus49 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:16 pm
Lotus49 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:48 pm
Essentially we know they didn't design the RBD, a rival constructor did, so on what basis are RP eligible for prize money this year in the WCC if we're all agreed they are running a part they were supposed to do themselves or through a 3rd party but did not?

You can reasonably argue not being able to make them change them for a few reasons but that doesn't mean you have to pay them their prize money just because you'e scared the team will fold or AM will pull the plug.
FIA have ensured that this will go nowhere by allowing Haas to run a Ferrari copy. Then offering lawyers to have a field day with Technical Regs and Sporting regs. Add to that the complete inability to steward races with credibility the FIA is killing the sport.

We don't even know if Mercedes will stay in the sport yet. If Mercedes don't continue the next WDC will be devalued, Max will beat a crippled Ferrari, an engineless McLaren and Renault.
Its a total mess.

Switch to Formula E or e-sports and pick a team to follow now!
The FIA apparently told Haas last year that they couldn't do exactly what RP have done with the brake ducts when Haas asked if it was allowed so they've definitely messed up big here and it will likely be messy going trying to find a fair solution for all but I can't agree on any devaluing if Merc walk, like drivers most teams come and go so not bothered tbh.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Lotus49 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:24 pm
Lotus49 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:28 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:13 pm
I can't see this punishment surviving the appeals. There is enough grey area there I feel for RP to successfully appeal.
And enough grey area to potentially have them removed from the WCC if the others make a strong enough case that running a listed part designed by another constructor makes RP at least in part a customer car and therefore not entitled to any slice of the prize pool as a constructor in their own right because Mercedes aren't some 3rd party, they are a rival in the same WCC.

No way they'd have appealed and risked that, they got a slap on the wrist, but now the others have then I guess they may as well.
Ultimately though they haven't breached any technical regulations, and the sporting infringement they have nailed them on seems extremely flimsy.

Yes they have absolutely broken the "spirit" of the regs, but I'm almost certain that RP's appeal has more chance of success than the Renault/McLaren/Ferrari appeal.
What's flimsy about it? They are using a listed part designed by a rival constuctor and they've deemed it so. The FIA also told Haas not to do this.

In thiss mess the Fia created the only certainty is RP are running a part that is only legal on a Mercedes so of course the others will appeal, Renault were right. What's the grounds of appeal for RP?
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Exediron »

IMO Racing Point got extremely lucky with the penalty and has virtually no chance of an appeal producing a more lenient decision.

It doesn't matter if something was legal when and where you purchased it -- if it's illegal to use it, it's illegal to use it. You're not allowed to run brake ducts you didn't design in 2020, and Racing Point is running brake ducts they've openly admitted they didn't design. They thought they'd found a loophole, and the stewards disagree. That's really all there is to it.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

I see that in the stewards decision it says that Mercedes gave RP some parts (2019 brake ducts I assume!) on the 6th January 2020.

Why is this allowed and why would Mercedes do that?

The stewards seem to suggest it isn't a breach because RP didn't use the parts that Mercedes gave them.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by j man »

JN23 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:11 pm
Ferrari are appealing. Renault and McLaren expected to join them.

Racing Point also considering an appeal.
Ferrari are appealing? :lol:

Maybe Racing Point should've reached a "private agreement" with the FIA instead?


Anyway how utterly bizarre to see the penalised team and the protesting teams all appealing the outcome. It's the result of a poorly written regulation that doesn't seem to have been thought through at all. Sweeping change needed at the FIA I think, they've made an utter mess of this as well as the Ferrari engine debacle last year.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

Williams have also appealed.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Clarky »

Racing Point are going to appeal.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Jezza13 »

I find none of this very appealing
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:04 am
I find none of this very appealing
:lol:

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by -K- »

I’m not surprised there is a queue of teams appealing, as someone said Renault have not won this unless 15 points happens to be the difference between them and Racing Point at the end of the season. They have no way of really quantifying how many points Racing Point have scored that they would not have done had they been using rear brake ducts of their own design, even less so how many points that might be at the end of the season when we don’t even know how long the season is or what circuits might be added to or removed from the calendar in the meantime.

I would be a little surprised if McLaren appealed, with their reverting to Mercedes power next year and Mercedes insisting that they have done nothing wrong. In appealing this, it feels to me that teams are also saying they believe Mercedes to be in the wrong (which I feel that they are) and that might sour relations with Mercedes if they also face some kind of sanction. I believe there is more chance of Mercedes also being punished as a result of the appeal than there is of Racing Point being handed a more severe one.

As Racing Point were not using these RBD’s last year when they were not a listed part, what were they using? I assume there is some technical reason that Racing Point cannot be told to put that design on the car, without which it would seem to be the best solution, as hurriedly designing replacements might give rise to safety issues.

I did think that they should disqualify them from the constructors’, but that seems out of kilter with McLaren having access to much more of Ferrari’s designs in 2007. Perhaps a proportion of points would have been better than a fixed number. I assume that as with Hamilton and Alonso in 2007, the drivers are not being docked any points?

On Mercedes, I don’t understand what they thought they would gain here. Selling the designs at the time was allowed, so the only logic I can see is that they thought it was an easy way to make some money without giving an advantage to a competitor (they must have known that the RBDs would be a listed part by the time Racing Point came to use the design, and therefore that Racing Point would be in trouble for it or have to realise that and design their own. They claim not. I can’t understand how they can say that the January delivery wasn’t in breach of the rules, as whatever they had agreed before that date, it was a listed part at that point. It makes them an accessory to the offence in my view.

This is a total mess, as it must give Racing Point some level of advantage in 2021 as well with the cars being carried over. Even if they have to design their own by next year, I can’t see the advantage being nil.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by spiritone »

This isn't a RP problem. This is a FIA problem. They have been total screwups for a long time. The secret ferrari deal got the teams going and now because they didn't do their job now we have the racing point problem. This should not be the headlines in a shortened season. For the die hard fans we can argue about this but the problem is for the casual fan the only word they see is CHEATING. So off course what is the headline in the sporting news, CHEATING SCANDLE. This is the last thing this sport needs. How about the FIA and the teams settle this behind closed doors and be PROFESSIONAL. The FIA has done a gherkin poor job this year of inconsistent driver penalties, the ferrari penalty and now this. Need to get this settled and quick. Time for teams to race and forget about trying to eliminate each other through protests.

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