Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

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wire2004
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Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by wire2004 »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53384460


Well. Its finally happened. Renault have got salty and have protested the racing point cars.

More specifically. The front and rear break ducts have been impounded by the Styrian GP stewards. And have asked Mercedes to provide them with there front and rear break ducts from last years car for examination.

Thoughts

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

The fact that's it's such a specific part of the car and not just the overall design makes it sound more likely that they have something. It will be interesting to see what information comes out of this as it unfolds.

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Clarky
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Clarky »

@andrewbensonf1
Racing Point "extremely disappointed" in "misconceived and poorly informed protest. Any & all suggestion of wrongdoing is firmly rejected". Team "co-operated with FIA and satisfactorily answered all questions re origins of designs of RP20". "Confident" protest will be dismissed

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Exediron
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Exediron »

Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.

This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Exediron wrote:
Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.

This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
I can see it now:

BREAKING: Racing Point Car Illegal Confirms FIA.

FIA spokesperson quoted as saying "well when we initially cleared them of wrong doing we hadn't looked at the break duct design, we actually didnt have access to any of the designs".

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

If Renault are trying to market themselves as future championship contenders then they shouldn't be drawing attention to the fact that they can't even beat last year's Mercedes.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.

This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
I can see it now:

BREAKING: Racing Point Car Illegal Confirms FIA.

FIA spokesperson quoted as saying "well when we initially cleared them of wrong doing we hadn't looked at the break duct design, we actually didnt have access to any of the designs".
Makes you wonder HOW on earth Renault knew something was up with the RP Brake Ducts to such a specific degree.
I get the distinct aroma of Spygate for some reason.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by j man »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Clarky wrote:"Confident" protest will be dismissed
I am, too.

This is like Red Bull protesting DAS. If the FIA is already aware of something and has made its position clear, the decision isn't likely to be reversed.
I can see it now:

BREAKING: Racing Point Car Illegal Confirms FIA.

FIA spokesperson quoted as saying "well when we initially cleared them of wrong doing we hadn't looked at the break duct design, we actually didnt have access to any of the designs".
Makes you wonder HOW on earth Renault knew something was up with the RP Brake Ducts to such a specific degree.
I get the distinct aroma of Spygate for some reason.
Probably the same reason RP were able to reverse-engineer the Mercedes in the first place: all the teams spy on each other relentlessly and take every opportunity to photograph every square inch of their competitors' cars.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Zazu »

Maybe Renault have evidence Mercedes sold the parts/design rather than it being reverse engineered

Also, I don't think it's salty at all. All teams protest each other if they think the rules have been broken

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

https://t.co/XreI3y54aI?amp=1

FIA have said that they didn’t look at the brake ducts when they went to the Racing Point factory in pre-season, which seems a bit of an oversight.

I’ve also read today that they hope to have a decision in the run up to the British Grand Prix.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Zazu wrote:Maybe Renault have evidence Mercedes sold the parts/design rather than it being reverse engineered

Also, I don't think it's salty at all. All teams protest each other if they think the rules have been broken
Apparently that part has been chosen because while it would be possible to copy wings/bodywork etc from pictures the internal workings and layout of the brake ducts are not something teams would have pictures of, so there would be some explaining to do if it was identical to the '19 Merc.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by DeepPyro69 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zazu wrote:Apparently that part has been chosen because while it would be possible to copy wings/bodywork etc from pictures the internal workings and layout of the brake ducts are not something teams would have pictures of, so there would be some explaining to do if it was identical to the '19 Merc.
True, but definitely leads to the question to how does Renault have access to that much information about a competitors IP to be able to raise an objection to it?

Spygate mk2?

B

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

DeepPyro69 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zazu wrote:Apparently that part has been chosen because while it would be possible to copy wings/bodywork etc from pictures the internal workings and layout of the brake ducts are not something teams would have pictures of, so there would be some explaining to do if it was identical to the '19 Merc.
True, but definitely leads to the question to how does Renault have access to that much information about a competitors IP to be able to raise an objection to it?

Spygate mk2?

B
I didnt include it because I couldn't remember who posted the tweet and it came across as repeating hearsay, fairly sure it was a journalist though, but they alleged it was a Racing Point defector who tipped them off.

Officially all they've said is:
“We actually believe Racing Point have received drawings and parts which have been used to build their car this year,” former FIA man turned Renault executive director Marcin Budkowski told Sky F1.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... -drawings/

JN23
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

FIA have also said that they expect Renault to protest at every race until this is sorted.

j man
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by j man »

The other complication I've been hearing is it was entirely legal to buy brake ducts from another team until this year. So if Racing Point "bought" the design last year before the rule change then it's harder to rule against them. It seems a bit of a grey area as they can't be expected to "forget" a design they've inherited in the past.

wire2004
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by wire2004 »

So renault know they have a rubbish car and are doing everything they can to get a free position in the championship.

Another protest has been made on the racing points legality of their cars.

Pathetic by Renault to be honnest. Just build a better car.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by j man »

wire2004 wrote:So renault know they have a rubbish car and are doing everything they can to get a free position in the championship.

Another protest has been made on the racing points legality of their cars.

Pathetic by Renault to be honnest. Just build a better car.
Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by oz_karter »

wire2004 wrote:So renault know they have a rubbish car and are doing everything they can to get a free position in the championship.
Another protest has been made on the racing points legality of their cars.
Pathetic by Renault to be honnest. Just build a better car.
While I agree that Renault should build a better car, the rules and the protest system exist for a reason. F1 is meant to be about constructors designing and building their own cars. In this case it appears RP have very much copied the previous Mercedes and while taking inspiration is not against the rules, directly using the design of another car is.

Renault probably have more motivation for this protest because they are clearly behind the RP cars on the grid, but it also seems they have some specific information that drawings or something similar have exchanged hands (this is alluded to in the FIA responses). If that is the case then it definitely should be punished.

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and the rules need to be enforced to a high standard.

I don't agree that it is pathetic.

wire2004
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by wire2004 »

Then if drawings have been exchanged as you have said and apparently been alluded to by the fia. Then we have a major problem.

We have racing point and Mercedes gp who would be excluded from the championship for collusion. And renault would have to be excluded for spying and/or espionage. And renault would be in even more trouble than racing point and Mercedes as well in this case. Because who are they getting the information from is it a Renault employee who is working undercover at racing point. Is it a racing point employee giving them the information.
Surely. If racing point and Mercedes are to be found guilty. The question then becomes how did renault get this information in the first place. Because it seems all too fishy to me. How would a team know that another team has the drawings of another team without spying on them themselves.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by LBET »

wire2004 wrote:Then if drawings have been exchanged as you have said and apparently been alluded to by the fia. Then we have a major problem.

We have racing point and Mercedes gp who would be excluded from the championship for collusion. And renault would have to be excluded for spying and/or espionage. And renault would be in even more trouble than racing point and Mercedes as well in this case. Because who are they getting the information from is it a Renault employee who is working undercover at racing point. Is it a racing point employee giving them the information.
Surely. If racing point and Mercedes are to be found guilty. The question then becomes how did renault get this information in the first place. Because it seems all too fishy to me. How would a team know that another team has the drawings of another team without spying on them themselves.
I would need some evidence as speculation could point to big foot and pinocchio building brake ducts at Geppetto's place (and then some fine shoes of course). Seriously though, RP would have to be bonkers to brake the rules (pun intended) and have the evidence painted pink and run around a race track all weekend long. Human nature would make them want to hide it no?

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by tootsie323 »

j man wrote:Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.
This is the opinion of the BBC (radio 5 live) team; they voiced pretty much this on one of their race weekend podcasts.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Teddy007 »

tootsie323 wrote:
j man wrote:Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.
This is the opinion of the BBC (radio 5 live) team; they voiced pretty much this on one of their race weekend podcasts.
And there we have one major problem right away. Journalists giving their opinion which in all honesty, means nothing like their misleading headlines. They are not regulators or engineers.

Most teams by now usually clear things with the FIA before hand (like the DAS system). Which the FIA already deemed fine for this season. RBR still protested it for "clarification" which usually translates to "lets give this another shot".

They have to consider that costing the remove of this tech is usually expensive and especially if everything is built around it. So most of them are clued up in to making sure the FIA are fully aware of these designs... unless they are doing it under the radar.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

Teddy007 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
j man wrote:Wasn't it Racing Point that protested to get Renault disqualified at Suzuka for their brake balance adjustment system? There might be a vindictive element to this.
This is the opinion of the BBC (radio 5 live) team; they voiced pretty much this on one of their race weekend podcasts.
And there we have one major problem right away. Journalists giving their opinion which in all honesty, means nothing like their misleading headlines. They are not regulators or engineers.

Most teams by now usually clear things with the FIA before hand (like the DAS system). Which the FIA already deemed fine for this season. RBR still protested it for "clarification" which usually translates to "lets give this another shot".

They have to consider that costing the remove of this tech is usually expensive and especially if everything is built around it. So most of them are clued up in to making sure the FIA are fully aware of these designs... unless they are doing it under the radar.
Not really sure what's the problem with journalists giving their opinion on something like this?

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by j man »

If the Racing Point is ruled legal, I do look forward to seeing a field of 2020-spec Mercedes racing each other next season.

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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by Asphalt_World »

Reports coming in through the German media that Racing Point have admitted buying a set of Mercedes 2019 brake ducts, before these items became listed parts.
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Re: Salty Renault Protest Racing Points Legality.

Post by JN23 »

It also seems like there will be a meeting tomorrow to decide the case.

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