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I really don't think the drivers have anything to do with this. I don't think the team are helped this year by the Ferrari engine which another thread is now talking about possibly being the worst engine. If Haas get a lot of their parts from Ferrari and Ferrari are poor, could this also be related.

Grosjean had brake problems in first practice and only managed 3 laps and I don't think any of them will have really helped him much.

Haas, Williams and Alfa romeo actually look pretty close performance wise, but are the 3 worst teams. I think this is both a good sign from williams compared to last year, but bad from alfa romeo and especially Haas given just how far back they have gone since they came to F1.

I was surprised that Grosjean even got through to Q2 and Magnussen was very close too. As some others commented, I think Magnussen outperformed the car in the race. Watching his onboard from some of the race highlights on youtube showed him do quite a few passes on the first lap taking opportunities when they came. But from then on, it was clear the cars behind magnussen were quicker. Grosjean's start wasn't so good and while he made a mistake on lap 20, it looked identical to what Bottas did in qualifying. But that car was so twitchy that virtually as soon as it went off track slightly, it triggered a spin. It was Grosjean's mistake - clearly, but he did say afterwards that it didn't feel like the same car as on friday. Soon after he said this, Magnussen's brakes fail, then later on, so do his. It was only in the USA last year that magnussen looked to have a 100% identical problem that caused both of their retirements last race. This car has some serious brake issues.

The team have also shown several examples that makes them look like they are very inexperienced too. Such as Australia in 2018, they didn't fit the wheel right with Grosjean or Magnussen. Exactly the same happened with Grosjean the next year in the first race. Now, the first race this year, they both retire with brake issues. This team has some real problems to deal with here. The team have made it clear that they respected the feedback Grosjean gave them last year, but even if they took that onboard, they haven't looked to produce a good car.

I think from what Grosjean commented on during the race that their problem may be that they just can't get the car set so it preforms well in qualifying and the long run in the race. Plenty of times last year, they qualified well, but were nowhere in the race. In a race such as belgium, both Magnussen and Grosjean had one solid looking stint, while the other one, they actually looked unrealisticly slow as if the car had a problem.

About the only race last year where the car looked strong on race day was brazil where Grosjean was on the same strategy as Sainz. He could possibly have got a podium or at least got 4th there without his MGU-k failure, but I don't think that was a hass specific issue.

They are probably the most unpredictable team on the grid in terms of what tracks may suit them as their car last year was constantly getting changed and they never figured out what worked well. And as I said, they often don't seem to be able to do a full race without having problems with some part of the car that makes it a handful. Reading through some of the reports on Hass' site last year following their races shows they really do have some issues, and despite both drivers sounding confident that the negatives had been put behind them prier to this weekend, they look very poor again so far, but the blame should not go towards Grosjean or Magnussen. But I'm not sure what this team should do if they want to survive. As has already been reported, they quite possibly won't be on the grid next year.

"What is wrong with HASS?"

Leads to turmoil, strife, and sometimes war.

For the Haas F1 team - I suspect they are down the same rabbit hole as Ferrari, losing performance on both the car and the engine.

Are Haas any slower relative to the front-running pace than they've been in previous years? Or is it just that the rest of the grid has closed up and they've been left behind a bit?

They've always had issues with car setup and general race-day operation, I imagine this is largely due to their small engineering team and a consequence of so much of their car being bought off the shelf. If you've not designed and engineered the system yourself from the ground up then you're naturally going to struggle to understand how to get the most out of it, and is perhaps why they in particular see the value of having an experienced driver like Grosjean on board.

Overall, Haas do incredibly well with the resources they have, but their business model will always restrict them to just making up the numbers. Hopefully the forthcoming reg change and budget cap will give them greater opportunity to grow and become more self-sufficient, assuming they stick around which I hope they do.

please correct the thread topic!

Having watched Drive To Survive, I think the problem is not that they don't know what's wrong, I'm not convinced they know what's right. By that I mean when they do well, I'm not convinced it's by design and therefore they don't know how to repeat it.

Sorry for me getting the wrong spelling for a simply names team! have corrected that and would change the title if I could. I bit embarresing given i was surprised with the amount that used two lots of r in the first part of Toro Rosso.

Topic title changed.... no HASSle at all

DOLOMITE wrote:please correct the thread topic!

Having watched Drive To Survive, I think the problem is not that they don't know what's wrong, I'm not convinced they know what's right. By that I mean when they do well, I'm not convinced it's by design and therefore they don't know how to repeat it.

I think this is correct. I remember Mike Gascoigne said something similar about the 2005 Toyota which was a really good car and probably would have won multiple races with a tier 1 driver. They couldn't replicate that success in following seasons because they never worked out what made that 2005 car so good.

This year Haas has a double whammy. First they have the Ferrari lack of power. Both Haas and Aston Martin (Sauber) are almost falling back into the clutches of Williams.

Secondly Haas has installed a loose nut behind the wheel in both of their cars. Every time they start to look even marginally decent RoGro and KMag can be counted on to screw it up. Why they didn't ditch these two several years ago is beyond me.

When was the last time the drivers were actually at fault for screwing their result? Ricciardo ruined it for magnussen in brazil and Grosjean had an MGU-K failure. The last time I think was Britain last year - and Ferrari have had two double retirements due to team mate clashes since. Grosjean and Magnussen are nothing like as bad being team mates as people think. Even germany was just a gentle bump (quite a bit of moaning and complaining) but it didn't ruin their result.

Grosjean again this weekend had problems in qualifying and had to start from the pit lane. You have to give them credit for the last race. They looked the best of the bottom 3 teams and Grosjean and Magnussen looked the most evenly matched team mates out there. I think they both overtook each other 2 or 3 times pretty cleanly. They did some nice passes on Kimi at the end too. I still think the car is their problem and not the drivers.

A.J. wrote:"What is wrong with HASS?"

Leads to turmoil, strife, and sometimes war.

For the Haas F1 team - I suspect they are down the same rabbit hole as Ferrari, losing performance on both the car and the engine.

Haas is the Dutch word for hare. So at the moment, not really the name to have in the first place...

I hope their problems, apart from the Ferrari parts, can be rectified; I rather like both drivers.

It seems virtually every weekend, they have some issues on friday or the weekend. Same was the case for Grosjean this time out in qualifying. I do wonder what the issue on sunday was though that made them work on the car so late that gave Grosjean a pit lane start.

Last years Austria qualifying pace. About 1 second off the Ferrari.
This season Austia qualifying pace. About 0.6 seconds off the pace the Ferrari.

Both teams are slower in dry Austrian qualifying relative to 2019 pace.
I think the Ferrari engine is a big part of it (and I think we all know what's gone in there)

They also need to sort out their brakes - as long as they've been in F1 they've had braking issues.

I think the drivers, whilst definitely not top tier, get under rated. Both are capable midfield drivers.

I think they are inept quite frankly. If it wasn't for the Ferrari help they're getting with their car they would be reminiscent of the Manors, Caterhams of the past. They do not know what they are doing. The drivers are the least of their worries imo.

I'm going all in on them signing Perez for 2021 and his influx of cash along with his experience and ability will help the team improve.
Honestly, I like Steiner, but I've never been convinced he's the guy for the job. I think Haas should think about hiring Boulier to at least co-run and co-manage Haas. He did an utterly commendable job at Lotus and the only issue with the team was their inability to bring in money.

I think the 2 of them working together would do a better job than Steiner has been able to thus far.

I also think it's time for them to manufacture their cars 100% in-house with the exception of the brake systems, and for crying outloud, make a proper brake duct so you don't cook your brakes at every race!

The team seemed to look decent over the past couple of races and their strategy (even if against the rules) was still worth getting the penalty they got for it. You could tell by Magnussen's radio how happy he was for the team. Despite only one retirement, he still managed to keep it in the points.

I wondered why Grosjean's pace looked so off for most of the race. Apparently he got front wing damage from when Albon did a lunge on him. This was into turn 1 and he left just enough space to begin with and even opened the steering (twice in fact) and Albon still touched it. Certainly not worth a penalty, but this was when he suddenly stopped matching magnussen's pace. His damage probably won't have helped him managing tyres after which haas also reported to be an issue for him.

I keep defending him as many often just assume he's always to blame for everything when in reality he just seems to just have a bad luck magnet attached to him. It really doesn't help his current reputation. I'm not actually convinced if any other driver has had worse luck than him over the past 2 years at any point over the whole hybrid era. I understand it is hard for many to sympathise with him as he has had many shockingly bad periods in his career, but to be honest, over the past year or so, he has been decent and is certainly good enough to be in the sport. Recently, he's had plenty of decent drives which I think have gone unnoticed by a great deal of people mainly because they are further back. Then you get those who point out that he's totally useless and Haas have got no reason to keep him when they don't giving any decent reasoning.

Based on last race, it looks like they have got a little better at managing their tyres over the race (at least Magnussen without damage did) and hopefully they will get better later in the year. You really do wonder if the car will be here next year. If any driver does replace either of them, I think it will have to be an experienced driver like Perez. With a pretty new team that often makes mistakes (or don't know what they are doing), experienced drivers really help. This is reason why I think they probably should keep hold of Grosjean over magnussen if a driver change happens as he's been there from the start. And when things are right with the car, I personally think grosjean has more speed than Magnussen. And despite what it looked with the points last year, Grosjean was on the whole better over the season. But the drivers are not the teams problems. I think both are under rated and can be decent a lot of the time. I think they will probably hold onto both drivers if they remain for next year.

Excellent post, GHW. Grosjean is a lot better than many give him credit for... for all the reasons you cite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5BjKGl9vw

Grosjean now has had his chance to speak out loud about the problems with his car now he knows he is leaving the team.

People may be sick of him moaning, but virtually everything he complains about that relates to the car is very true indeed. Complaining about others driving is one area we can ignore a lot of the time from him, but in terms of technical problems, he's very knowledgable in that area and would say he's better than the average driver on the grid. Partly because of his experience too though.

I've always noticed that the Haas is so inconsistent and I didn't believe it was to do with the drivers. Examples being that Grosjean frequently managed to get good FP3 runs as this video describes, and then seriously struggle in qualifying. These two drivers will be used to how this car operates and to be honest, if the car doesn't change next year and the team still have their problems, I initially think whoever the two new drivers are could well struggle even more than these two.

I say this to others when they make comments like I am, that the team know more than us. But I really think the team and their engineers and knowledge as they are pretty new is a much bigger problem than their drivers. Grosjean has frequently described what the problems are, but it isn't related to him that the team fail to fix them. I honestly can't see a quick turn around for this team and I think it will take time for supposedly better drivers to get used to this mess. They don't really seem to know how to set their car up correctly.

You see this all the time in races when the drivers are on alternate startegies. I think it was Spa last year. Grosjean was so much faster at the start of the race that I think he managed to pull a 30 second gap to magnussen, then when they both had pitted, Magnussen closed right up and Grosjean's pace was nowhere. I really don't think those sections of the race as probably being the slowest driver is a problem with the drivers, and rather car setup.

I have very little hope for this team and have thought for quite some time that their current drivers are not even close to what their main problems are.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:49 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5BjKGl9vw

Grosjean now has had his chance to speak out loud about the problems with his car now he knows he is leaving the team.

People may be sick of him moaning, but virtually everything he complains about that relates to the car is very true indeed. Complaining about others driving is one area we can ignore a lot of the time from him, but in terms of technical problems, he's very knowledgable in that area and would say he's better than the average driver on the grid. Partly because of his experience too though.

I've always noticed that the Haas is so inconsistent and I didn't believe it was to do with the drivers. Examples being that Grosjean frequently managed to get good FP3 runs as this video describes, and then seriously struggle in qualifying. These two drivers will be used to how this car operates and to be honest, if the car doesn't change next year and the team still have their problems, I initially think whoever the two new drivers are could well struggle even more than these two.

I say this to others when they make comments like I am, that the team know more than us. But I really think the team and their engineers and knowledge as they are pretty new is a much bigger problem than their drivers. Grosjean has frequently described what the problems are, but it isn't related to him that the team fail to fix them. I honestly can't see a quick turn around for this team and I think it will take time for supposedly better drivers to get used to this mess. They don't really seem to know how to set their car up correctly.

You see this all the time in races when the drivers are on alternate startegies. I think it was Spa last year. Grosjean was so much faster at the start of the race that I think he managed to pull a 30 second gap to magnussen, then when they both had pitted, Magnussen closed right up and Grosjean's pace was nowhere. I really don't think those sections of the race as probably being the slowest driver is a problem with the drivers, and rather car setup.

I have very little hope for this team and have thought for quite some time that their current drivers are not even close to what their main problems are.

I don't think Haas think Grosjean and Magnussen are bad drivers. They want to get drivers with a budget to help them try and improve the car. It looks like it's going to be Mazepin and Schumacher and I don't think Haas are bringing them in because they consider them an upgrade in driving talent.

I also think things can sometimes grow stale and overtime people become disillusioned and frustrated. Hiring in some new blood can at least be a good way to inject a bit of enthusiasm.

Bottom line the car isn't really good enough for either driver to score much in the way of points. Unless the Ferrari engine takes a big step forward that will happen again next seasons so you may as well have someone bringing a fortune to the team scoring no points rather than someone who isn't.

Basically, the 2019-Haas was a mis-construction with fundamental flaws and due to finances (and a lack of competitive spirit), they basically stick with it up to the end of 2021.

There have been some rumblings that Roger Penske has been thinking about going Formula 1 racing. The Haas team seems to be a good prospect to either take over or to form a partnership with Gene Haas. This cold add some new talent and vigor to the somewhat flagging efforts at Scuderia Haas. I have no idea about the likelihood of this happening but it could make for some interesting possibilities.

What's wrong with Haas?

- Not a stellar design this year
- Ferrari engine and underpinnings
- Mediocre drivers

Haas finalized their car designs and updates at the Winter testing prior to the season start - and it shows.

They have Ferrari's rear suspension - a design an concept they purchased but have had ZERO technical input into - so their understanding of it will be zero and they'll never be able to overcome its deficiencies.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:51 pm

They have Ferrari's rear suspension - a design an concept they purchased but have had ZERO technical input into - so their understanding of it will be zero and they'll never be able to overcome its deficiencies.

Seems to work okay for Tracing Point...

Haas also seem to be the team with the most retirements over the past 2 seasons. They had 10 last year!

Magnussen has already had 6 this year while Grosjean has only had one. The issue is is almost all of these haven't been related to driver mistakes. The only 2 last year that were was the double ritirement in Britain which was more on Magnussen's side I'd say. I think one or two of the others was someone else taking out Grosjean and at least 6 of them were mechanical issues last year alone. This year, some of the reasons for retirements have been a bit strange. Break problems for both drivers in the first race. No matter how bad Grosjean looked in that race, I'm not going to judge it if both cars had to retire due to dodgy breaks. This car is a mess... Magnussen got took out by Albon in Germany, but in the 70th anniversary race, the team seemed to box him early and then he did a dirty move on Latifi and then his made was a mess from there. He apparently retired because "there were no tyres left". Don't know if this was a miserable comment from him or if the team had messed up, but a strange reason to retire.

I actually can't remember what caused his retirement in Italy. Tuscany was pure bad luck though. This race, Magnussen apparently had a gearbox issue since after qualifying. They chose not to replace it as it would have given him a penalty, but the way I see it, would losing 3 places have made a difference? They must have expected Magnussen to be able to put up with it or they surely would have replaced it. I feel a bit sorry for him as it did look rough, but I think Grosjean seems to put up with things when problems occur a bit better than magnussen.

Examples being that he seemed very determined to get back on track and not just give up when he got punted off the track in tuscany. I feel Magnussen in his situation will have had no hope.

I still don't think new drivers ability wise are going to be able to sort this teams problems out with their strange reliability. I think only the drivers cash for helping the team develop will be the only reason. I expect the team to initially struggle even more next year and Having had Grosjean from the start has probably helped them stay as good as they are.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:25 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:51 pm

They have Ferrari's rear suspension - a design an concept they purchased but have had ZERO technical input into - so their understanding of it will be zero and they'll never be able to overcome its deficiencies.

Seems to work okay for Tracing Point...

Tracing Point were smart enough to copy a winning outfit. Haas are just happy to accept whatever Ferrari gives them....whether its good or garbage.

Haas may as well start going their own direction in terms of development unless those bits from Ferrari are free and Ferrari are using Haas' data for their own development.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:51 pm

They have Ferrari's rear suspension - a design an concept they purchased but have had ZERO technical input into - so their understanding of it will be zero and they'll never be able to overcome its deficiencies.

Ferrari (or Vettel) has not been all that successful with it.

mmi16 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:34 am

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:51 pm

They have Ferrari's rear suspension - a design an concept they purchased but have had ZERO technical input into - so their understanding of it will be zero and they'll never be able to overcome its deficiencies.

Ferrari (or Vettel) has not been all that successful with it.

Yup, which makes it even worse. They design a suspension concept that loses them so much lap time it makes them a laughing stock.

Where are all those hundreds of millions being spent????

.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55156088

Mick Schumacher to join Haas for 2021 season

By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer

Mick Schumacher, the son of seven-time Formula 1 world champion Michael, has signed to race for Haas next season.

The US-based team said the 21-year-old had signed a "multi-year contract". He will partner Russian Nikita Mazepin, who was confirmed on Tuesday.

Schumacher, a member of the Ferrari driver academy, leads the F2 series going into this weekend's final round.

"The prospect of being on the Formula 1 grid next year makes me incredibly happy," said a "speechless" Schumacher.

German Schumacher thanked Haas and Ferrari for their "trust", adding: "I also want to acknowledge and extend my love to my parents. I know that I owe them everything. I have always believed that I would realise my dream of Formula 1.

"A huge thank you must also go to all the great motorsport fans out there who have supported me throughout my career. I will give it my all, as I always do, and I look forward to going on this journey together with Haas F1 and them."

Haas team boss Gunther Steiner said Schumacher had "earned the opportunity" with his performances in Formula 2.

Schumacher's F1 debut next year will come on the 30th anniversary of his father's own entry to the sport, at the 1991 Belgian Grand Prix.

Michael Schumacher had a glittering career which ended with him being the most successful driver of all time, with 91 wins and seven World Championships.

Britain's Lewis Hamilton has this year surpassed Schumacher's win record and equalled his tally of championships.

Michael's medical condition is unknown following a skiing accident in 2013 in which he suffered severe head injuries. The 52-year-old has not been seen in public since.

His son's career has been guided carefully by the family and Michael's former manager, Sabine Kehm, to ease him through the motorsport ranks while keeping the inevitable public interest off his shoulders as much as possible.

He won the European Formula 3 championship in his second year in the category in 2018, made his F2 debut last season, winning a race at the Hungarian Grand Prix, and has won two races so far in a consistent 2020.

Schumacher is 14 points clear of Briton Callum Ilott with two races to go at this weekend's round at the Sakhir Grand Prix in Bahrain.

Mick Schumacher has said comparisons with his father were "never a problem" for him, and described Michael as "my idol and very special".

Lets hope the Haas will be better in 2021 with Mick Schumacher.