Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

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Austria '20 Hamilton vs Albon

Hamilton at fault, penalty deserved
31
48%
Hamilton at fault but penalty not deserved
6
9%
Racing Incident, no driver to blame
24
38%
Albon at fault, but no penalty deserved
3
5%
Albon at fault, should have got the penalty
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 64

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DOLOMITE
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Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by DOLOMITE »

Thoughts?

I made my judgement as I watched it, then watched it again a few times after. I honestly don't see how Hamilton is at fault here - at least not enough to be penalised.

Albon was along side (but not past) on the outside of a corner where we all know the driver on the inside is going to run out wide. Hamiltons line was tighter than his racing line and if he had turned right any harder he probably would oversteered and taken them both out. He's not obliged to crank on the steering just to get out of a drivers path.

Albon clearly had a decent speed advantage with those tyres and had enough time to pick a safer move.

I don't often disagree with Brundle but I did on this one and and that's why I watched it again but it didn't change my mind.

No bias here btw I was literally just saying to my boys how much I hoped Albon would make the podium.
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Exediron
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Exediron »

DOLOMITE wrote:Albon clearly had a decent speed advantage with those tyres and had enough time to pick a safer move.
It's a safe move. Leclerc did the same thing and got past without any problem.

For me, it's Hamilton's fault. Albon was clearly past and he should have backed out. Maybe he couldn't turn any further to the right, but he could have slowed down.
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Option or Prime
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Option or Prime »

Slowing would have made it worse, Albon's speed takes him into Hamiltons front tyre, Hamilton's course is unchanging in both speed and direction.

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Exediron
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Exediron »

Option or Prime wrote:Slowing would have made it worse, Albon's speed takes him into Hamiltons front tyre, Hamilton's course is unchanging in both speed and direction.
Having watched the onboard carefully, I concede that you're correct.


(22 seconds for Lewis' onboard)

That said, nothing about the onboard changes my basic opinion. Lewis understeered into Albon's car and caused the collision. Watching it more closely might have pushed it more into no penalty territory, however, if there's nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid the incident.
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KingVoid
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by KingVoid »

The driver on the inside understeered into the driver on the outside who was about to make an ambitious overtake stick.

This isn’t much different to what happened at Monza 2018 with Vettel vs Hamilton, and back then everyone criticized Vettel for making a mistake.

Hence to be consistent, you have to blame Hamilton here.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:The driver on the inside understeered into the driver on the outside who was about to make an ambitious overtake stick.

This isn’t much different to what happened at Monza 2018 with Vettel vs Hamilton, and back then everyone criticized Vettel for making a mistake.

Hence to be consistent, you have to blame Hamilton here.
Here's how I see it; Hamilton starts the corner well ahead of Albon and takes the corner at a speed where he is banking on being able to use the piece of track Albon ends up on upon corner exit. Then Albon appears on the bit of track Hamilton needs, he's already on the edge of adhesion, he can't just turn more to the right or use less track now so the accident becomes inevitable.

The difference with Vettel is that Hamilton is alongside all the way into the corner. Vettel already knows he won't be able to use all the track on corner exit because Hamilton will be there.

So whilst Hamilton made a miscalculation in not expecting Albon to be able to get ahead of him Vettel simply attempted to take the corner to fast knowing he was going to have another driver alongside him.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Pest44 »

It would be great to see Albon’s onboard footage which for whatever reason hasn’t been produced yet. It seems to me Albon had more room on his left to use which he didn’t. I think it’s a clear cut racing incident which considering the new mantra was meant to be ‘let them race’ I’m surprised that wasn’t the verdict by the stewards.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I'm seeing so many say elsewhere that Hamilton had no other choice but to go where he did. Yes his steering looked locked, but he could easily have lifted off more or simply braked a little. Albon was more than just along side, he was somewhat ahead and Hamilton will have had more than enough time to judge that with the reactions these drivers should have.

Hamilton sometimes seems to expect drivers to just drive off track to avoid being hit when he is being defensive. He's not that often in a fight with anyone to be honest so we don't often see it.

I personally am surprised that more are not going for Hamilton here.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by FormulaFun »

Pest44 wrote:It would be great to see Albon’s onboard footage which for whatever reason hasn’t been produced yet. It seems to me Albon had more room on his left to use which he didn’t. I think it’s a clear cut racing incident which considering the new mantra was meant to be ‘let them race’ I’m surprised that wasn’t the verdict by the stewards.
Yes this is exactly my opinion

Also the issue that caused the problem was that early on in Albons overtake his and Hamilton's wheels were interlocked and so Hamilton slowing down would not avoid the incident and it was obviously not possible to turn more so hard/impossible for him to back out even if in that split second he had been able to see what was going to happen - people often mistake the t-cam for the drivers view. If Albon has more room on his outside there can be no argument this is a racing incident

cmberry20
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by cmberry20 »

I still can't see how Hamilton is to blame for this.
People are saying he understeered into Albon but I see no evidence of this. The car is under control, he is on full lock around the corner and does not open the steering wheel.
Additional, he's on the racing line and isn't running wide.
The only possible way Hamilton could have avoided Albon hitting him was to slow down mid corner to let him through. And I've NEVER seen a driver do this.
Has to be a Racing accident.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Hamilton carried too much speed into the corner, trying to stay ahead of Albon. He didn't allow for the possibility of Albon overtaking on the outside, and understeered into him. It's Hamilton's favourite move, as seen so often in his battles with Rosberg. Most of the time, he will carry enough speed in such that he can use all the runoff without expecting the attacking driver to have enough traction to keep alongside him. Occasionally, it doesn't work out, meaning the outside driver has to back out, or be involved in the incident.
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

cmberry20 wrote:I still can't see how Hamilton is to blame for this.
People are saying he understeered into Albon but I see no evidence of this. The car is under control, he is on full lock around the corner and does not open the steering wheel.
Additional, he's on the racing line and isn't running wide.
The only possible way Hamilton could have available Albon hitting him was to slow down mid corner to let him through. And I've NEVER seen a driver do this.
Has to be a Racing accident.
But albon had most of his car ahead at a time when Hamilton could have backed off.... If albon hadn't got to this point, then albon should have backed off. But Hamilton will have had sight of him, and by that point Hamilton should have realised that Albon was on the inside as well as ahead and I think he should have backed off at that point.

Even if some say Hamilton won't have been able to avoid it, if that was the case, given just how close Albon was in the previous corner, Hamilton should have been more prepared for Albon to try what he did, but IMO he braked too late if he wasn't able to give Albon more space than he did.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I'm seeing so many say elsewhere that Hamilton had no other choice but to go where he did. Yes his steering looked locked, but he could easily have lifted off more or simply braked a little. Albon was more than just along side, he was somewhat ahead and Hamilton will have had more than enough time to judge that with the reactions these drivers should have.

Hamilton sometimes seems to expect drivers to just drive off track to avoid being hit when he is being defensive. He's not that often in a fight with anyone to be honest so we don't often see it.

I personally am surprised that more are not going for Hamilton here.
You realise if Hamilton lifts off (he obviously can't brake when on the edge of adhesion like that, he'd spin for sure) the accident just happens a but faster? The accident happened because the front of Albons rear right wheel drove into the back of Hamilton's front left. Hamilton easing off doesn't just stop that from happening.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Greenman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:Hamilton carried too much speed into the corner, trying to stay ahead of Albon. He didn't allow for the possibility of Albon overtaking on the outside, and understeered into him. It's Hamilton's favourite move, as seen so often in his battles with Rosberg. Most of the time, he will carry enough speed in such that he can use all the runoff without expecting the attacking driver to have enough traction to keep alongside him. Occasionally, it doesn't work out, meaning the outside driver has to back out, or be involved in the incident.

.

Wow ! Every driver must (according to you) slow down and drive cautiously to allow for the incompetence of any other driver trying a 50-50 move ! Never try to actually race, or stay ahead !

That is made even more amusing when seeing that your Avatar name is "Schumacher forever #1" a driver who would regard your attitude as madness !

.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Badgeronimous »

Not sure Hamilton can avoid the collision, but Albon had won the corner by the time the collision happened.

Usually in collisions like that, the outer driver has driven into a closing wedge, and generally should yield out of a closing gap as they haven't definitely won the corner - but in this case Albon was driving out of a wedge and had definitely won the corner and was definitely going to complete the overtake by the time of impact.

It's Hamiltons fault but.... I don't think he can do much about it, or did anything unreasonable. I'm 50/50 on if the penalty was deserved. It's borderline. Whenever you're on the outside of a car at a corner you're always in a dangerous position. Albon did take a risk too.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Option or Prime »

Badgeronimous wrote:Not sure Hamilton can avoid the collision, but Albon had won the corner by the time the collision happened.

Usually in collisions like that, the outer driver has driven into a closing wedge, and generally should yield out of a closing gap as they haven't definitely won the corner - but in this case Albon was driving out of a wedge and had definitely won the corner and was definitely going to complete the overtake by the time of impact.

It's Hamiltons fault but.... I don't think he can do much about it, or did anything unreasonable. I'm 50/50 on if the penalty was deserved. It's borderline. Whenever you're on the outside of a car at a corner you're always in a dangerous position. Albon did take a risk too.
Albon likes the outside overtake, it is always risky though, as said above Albon's onboard would tell us a lot. Isn't it a bit odd that you can decide without both drivers perspectives?

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Fiki »

This is fully Hamilton's fault. He was defensive going into turn 3, and again well before going into turn 4.

Hamilton defends the inside, and is aware of the attack twice. This means it cannot have been a racing incident in turn 4, as he was aware of the car on the outside and let the car drift towards it regardless.

Hamilton knew that his normal trajectory through the corner was impossible, and therefore should have adapted his speed, to cater for the car on the outside.

Had Albon drawn back to the rear, as he had to do in turn 3, then Hamilton would have been free to take to the outside once he had passed Albon again. But that was not the case, and he therefore caused an avoidable accident. Albon left Hamilton all the space he needed to, and still he was taken out.

All in all, I think Hamilton got off very lightly indeed. I'm not sure Albon's comment about Hamilton being a sore loser is correct, but it was more than understandable.
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tim3003
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by tim3003 »

A racing incident, as both Coulthard and Webber called it. Hamilton's penalty was as unjustified as the one in q3 for not easing at a yellow board which he couldn't see for dust and which was immediately followed by 2 green ones. This looks a little like an anti-Lewis campaign by an F1 desperate to keep the championship alive...

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

tim3003 wrote:A racing incident, as both Coulthard and Webber called it. Hamilton's penalty was as unjustified as the one in q3 for not easing at a yellow board which he couldn't see for dust and which was immediately followed by 2 green ones. This looks a little like an anti-Lewis campaign by an F1 desperate to keep the championship alive...
There has now been a very clear reason for Hamilton's penalty in qualifying. I initially thought similar to what you mentioned because of the dust, but it does not look to be the case now. What Hamilton did was pretty much identical to Verstappen in Mexico and the penalty was appropriate. Look for the article I link in the qualifying thread.

I also myself think Hamilton could have done better himself in this latest incident and put the blame on him. And the stewards this time didn't take ages wondering weather to punish him. I totally disagree that they are out there against him. They let him off for qualifying as they hadn't yet seen the evidence from his onboard how rediculous is that? Red Bull were not happy about that and managed to make them change their decision. This isn't to do with them being harsh on Hamilton, I think he clearly made mistakes that earned him penalties. People say 5 seconds is harsh, but that is a very mild penalty which I think is appropriate for causing albon to spin and fall right back.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Greenman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:Hamilton carried too much speed into the corner, trying to stay ahead of Albon. He didn't allow for the possibility of Albon overtaking on the outside, and understeered into him. It's Hamilton's favourite move, as seen so often in his battles with Rosberg. Most of the time, he will carry enough speed in such that he can use all the runoff without expecting the attacking driver to have enough traction to keep alongside him. Occasionally, it doesn't work out, meaning the outside driver has to back out, or be involved in the incident.

.

Wow ! Every driver must (according to you) slow down and drive cautiously to allow for the incompetence of any other driver trying a 50-50 move ! Never try to actually race, or stay ahead !

That is made even more amusing when seeing that your Avatar name is "Schumacher forever #1" a driver who would regard your attitude as madness !

.
If one is going to predict that they will still be ahead by the end of the corner, then they must take the blame if their prediction was wrong. Hamilton knew too well that Albon was on far quicker tyres in what is one of the best cars for cornering. A minor five second penalty I think is justified given the outcome, and I hope this disincentivises drivers from pushing the outside driver off the track in the future.

And yes, a great, thorough argument that I could not possibly have such opinion being a fan of Schumacher. My argument must be invalid!
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

At first I thought it was Hamilton's fault and the penalty justified - however when I saw on the replay he was on opposite lock the whole time (from the moment he saw Albon was alongside, and before Albon was ahead) I felt it was a racing incident. I think it fair to expect a defending driver to change their line to give space, but to actively slow down is outright conceding the space. Albon was headed into a gap that Hamilton couldn't physically give him without slowing down.

Leclerc got a black and white flag for this move in Italy - arguably worse as it was on a straight and therefore completely under control - whereas yesterday Hamilton was on full lock in the opposite direction the whole time.

You cannot make the argument that because they touched it made it worse as the only reason Hamilton and Leclerc didn't touch is because Hamilton backed out of it.

As for those comparing the move to Vettel and Hamilton in Monza 2018. That was judged to be a racing incident by the stewards and Vettel received no penalty.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Greenman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:Hamilton carried too much speed into the corner, trying to stay ahead of Albon. He didn't allow for the possibility of Albon overtaking on the outside, and understeered into him. It's Hamilton's favourite move, as seen so often in his battles with Rosberg. Most of the time, he will carry enough speed in such that he can use all the runoff without expecting the attacking driver to have enough traction to keep alongside him. Occasionally, it doesn't work out, meaning the outside driver has to back out, or be involved in the incident.

.

Wow ! Every driver must (according to you) slow down and drive cautiously to allow for the incompetence of any other driver trying a 50-50 move ! Never try to actually race, or stay ahead !

That is made even more amusing when seeing that your Avatar name is "Schumacher forever #1" a driver who would regard your attitude as madness !

.
{{ If one is going to predict that they will still be ahead by the end of the corner, then they must take the blame if their prediction was wrong. }}

Hamilton knew too well that Albon was on far quicker tyres in what is one of the best cars for cornering. A minor five second penalty I think is justified given the outcome, and I hope this disincentivises drivers from pushing the outside driver off the track in the future.

And yes, a great, thorough argument that I could not possibly have such opinion being a fan of Schumacher. My argument must be invalid!

Your first point is one of the best anyone has made IMO. Hamilton nearly had Albon nearly pass him at the previous corner and should have been fully aware that it will have been extremely likely he would try something again, but very possibly pulling it off. Due to this and how close Albon got before they both breaked, I think Hamilton should have been more prepared for what may happen. If not, then I think he has to take the blame. Albon could have gone a bit wider, but that would have gone off track. He stayed where he was entitled to and Hamilton hit him. With the speed difference between to two, Hamilton should have been aware of what could happen. So him taking the line he did knowing that Albon could be ahead was a bit too risky to me. If he didn't think Albon would make it by (or attempt to where he did), then he's guessing Albon wouldn't be fast enough, and how on earth can that then not be put down to Hamilton misjudging the situation? People say this penalty is harsh when it is about the weakest one available. Drivers have had far worse for very small incidents before this.

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Johnson
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Johnson »

It is a racing incident that is mostly Hamiltons fault but no penalty. The reason I think its not a penalty is the way Albon squeezes Hamilton to the apex. He leaves him about 1.1 car widths. On lap 1, when Hamilton was trying that move on Albon he left about 1.8 car widths and enough racing room. Similarly Norris behind on the same lap leaves over 2 car widths. If you squeeze a car so hard, its going to understeer into you.

That on top of the fact that Albon continued to squeeze him on exit, Albon had track to his left he could have used that would have avoided contact. These two facts make it a racing incident and not entirely Hamiltons fault. As has been mentionned Hamilton had no options to avoid this once it became clear contact might happen. He couldn't turn more right and if he slowed they would make contact due to interlocked wheels.

Albon vs Hamilton lap 1
Albon vs Hamilton crash
Norris vs Perez
Image

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by inky38 »

It would certainly be good to see an onboard shot from Albon's car, but from what I can make out, at the point of impact, Albon still had some track to the left of him.

The middle photo above clearly shows that Albon chose to take a tight line alongside Hamilton and didn't take into account that Hamilton could have understeered. Had he gone wider (and possibly taken to the curb) the end result may have been different. I still think that Hamilton may have pushed him off track, but he may not have spun as it would have been later in the corner.

IMHO racing incident

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Fiki »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Albon could have gone a bit wider, but that would have gone off track. He stayed where he was entitled to and Hamilton hit him.
You know, that first sentence reminded me of the basic problem I complained about on Saturday, after qualifying: track limits!
Why on earth do the Event Notes allow drivers to go completely off the track in two consecutive corners in the first place?

And how on earth can drivers afterwards be expected to race by what remains of the rules? The track is the track, and it is defined by the white lines. The FIA needs to be far stricter than they are at present, in the interest of the sport and of safety.
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by mikeyg123 »

Fiki wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:Albon could have gone a bit wider, but that would have gone off track. He stayed where he was entitled to and Hamilton hit him.
You know, that first sentence reminded me of the basic problem I complained about on Saturday, after qualifying: track limits!
Why on earth do the Event Notes allow drivers to go completely off the track in two consecutive corners in the first place?

And how on earth can drivers afterwards be expected to race by what remains of the rules? The track is the track, and it is defined by the white lines. The FIA needs to be far stricter than they are at present, in the interest of the sport and of safety.
Watch turn 1 at the start of the Austrian Grand Prix in 97 (actually it's a cracher watch the whole race) and compare it to turn 1 yesterday. It's the same corner but it's remarkable how all the drivers have the talent to stay on track in 97 whereas now half of them can't manage it.

Do the drivers really need it made this easy for them?

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Fiki »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:Albon could have gone a bit wider, but that would have gone off track. He stayed where he was entitled to and Hamilton hit him.
You know, that first sentence reminded me of the basic problem I complained about on Saturday, after qualifying: track limits!
Why on earth do the Event Notes allow drivers to go completely off the track in two consecutive corners in the first place?

And how on earth can drivers afterwards be expected to race by what remains of the rules? The track is the track, and it is defined by the white lines. The FIA needs to be far stricter than they are at present, in the interest of the sport and of safety.
Watch turn 1 at the start of the Austrian Grand Prix in 97 (actually it's a cracher watch the whole race) and compare it to turn 1 yesterday. It's the same corner but it's remarkable how all the drivers have the talent to stay on track in 97 whereas now half of them can't manage it.

Do the drivers really need it made this easy for them?
I just sprained my brain trying to think back to 1997. :D
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by tootsie323 »

inky38 wrote:It would certainly be good to see an onboard shot from Albon's car, but from what I can make out, at the point of impact, Albon still had some track to the left of him.

The middle photo above clearly shows that Albon chose to take a tight line alongside Hamilton and didn't take into account that Hamilton could have understeered. Had he gone wider (and possibly taken to the curb) the end result may have been different. I still think that Hamilton may have pushed him off track, but he may not have spun as it would have been later in the corner.

IMHO racing incident
That corner appears to have quite an early apex, so what appears to be a tight line going in is understandable. From the footage I have seen, Albon seems to be right on the outside of the circuit when the contact with / from (choose your own definition!) Hamilton is made. I don't think he had any room to move further left at that point.
Edit:Just viewed some more footage. There is a little room outside Albon at the moment of contact - though it is the kerbs.
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Johnson wrote:It is a racing incident that is mostly Hamiltons fault but no penalty. The reason I think its not a penalty is the way Albon squeezes Hamilton to the apex. He leaves him about 1.1 car widths. On lap 1, when Hamilton was trying that move on Albon he left about 1.8 car widths and enough racing room. Similarly Norris behind on the same lap leaves over 2 car widths. If you squeeze a car so hard, its going to understeer into you.

That on top of the fact that Albon continued to squeeze him on exit, Albon had track to his left he could have used that would have avoided contact. These two facts make it a racing incident and not entirely Hamiltons fault. As has been mentionned Hamilton had no options to avoid this once it became clear contact might happen. He couldn't turn more right and if he slowed they would make contact due to interlocked wheels.

Albon vs Hamilton lap 1
Albon vs Hamilton crash
Norris vs Perez
Image
This is a terrible angle that paints only one side of the incident.

Image
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/07/05 ... -to-albon/

While Lewis did push him out wide, he did in fact leave MORE than a car's width as this clearly shows, which nullifies what the onboard camera suggests.
That said, Albon pulled in tighter towards Hamilton as Hamilton was in Full-Lock to the right and even lifted a tad to keep from drifting further outward
in order to leave Albon enough room to operate comfortably.

And while I feel Albon bears most of the blame here, I think it should have been called a racing incident with no penalty handed to either driver.
We've seen more serious incidents chalked up to being racing incidents before, no reason why this one shouldn't have been deemed the same.
There was no malice or intent from either driver here, but Mercedes put Hamilton in that position too by not letting him get past Bottas when
he was clearly the faster driver and being held up.
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DOLOMITE
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by DOLOMITE »

I find it frustrating that people are referring to Hamilton understeering. There's no sign of any understeer - at all. The steering , the front wheels, angle of the car - it all lines up perfectly, nothing suggesting any kind of loss of traction. From his onboard, the car was under total control at all times.

To me it just looks like a rock-solid bit of defensive driving - and I feel Albon should have expected nothing less from Hamilton. You can't assume the job is done just because you've managed to get your front wheels alongside. That's not racing. A few people have said he was "past" Hamilton - well I don't know if there's a definition for that, but certainly his entire car wasn't past Hamilton - if it was they wouldn't have made contact! Has back wheels never pass Hamiltons fronts.

Albon has said he was already focusing on Bottas - well perhaps he shouldn't have been doing that until Hamilton was firmly in his mirrors....
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Asphalt_World »

Hamilton moved to the inside and had to know Albon was more than likely going to be on the outside of him. I believe LH could have taken the corner tighter but we've seen so many times that drivers on the outside of him normally go off the track rather than get hit. This time, right so, Albon kept on the black stuff!
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Flash2k11 »

I feel like the punishment was dished out because of what happened to Albon rather than the actual incident itself... I don't think Lewis did much wrong and Albon was a bit too hasty to make the move stick. The race was his to lose at that point, another hard lesson learned perhaps.
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by Lojik »

Asphalt_World wrote: This time, right so, Albon kept on the black stuff!
I think the picture posted by F1 MERCENARY shows he had room to stay on track and avoid the collision. Racing incident for me.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by FormulaFun »

This image by F1 Mercenary confirms exactly what I suspected. There is absolutely plenty of room for Albon on the outside yet in my opinion he intentionally tried to squeeze Hamilton to slow his exit (although even if he did it unintentionally the fact remains) and it back fired. Hamilton gave him fair racing room which he didn't use, so not sure how Hamilton can be at fault here to he honest. As Albon said himself he had considered the job done on Hamilton and was focussed on Bottas - this omission from Albon to me shows actually this was in part due to his own lack of awareness as much as it was Hamilton trying to fight a losing battle.

(It's known I am a Hamilton fan but I am being objective here, I said in race thread I actually really wanted Albon to win, and I think Hamilton was actually stupid for defending the position when Albon could have probably won the race and therefore minimised points damage with Bottas who will obviously be his rival for the WDC)

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by KingVoid »

Who was at fault for this incident between Hamilton and Ricciardo?



The stewards deemed this Hamilton’s fault and gave him a drive through penalty. No one objected the decision, from what I remember.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by F1_Ernie »

The way Hamilton has driven the last couple of years I am surprised he didnt just let Albon go who's was on quicker tyres, he would have got Bottas too and the points gap would have been smaller. Hamilton normally looks at the bigger picture and long term since 2016 happened.
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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

KingVoid wrote:Who was at fault for this incident between Hamilton and Ricciardo?



The stewards deemed this Hamilton’s fault and gave him a drive through penalty. No one objected the decision, from what I remember.
Well, this came to my mind as well even though it is quite different. But what we should look into is the harshness of the penalty. What hamilton did to albon certainly wasn't as clumsy as this, but the penalty was also incredibly mild compared. A 5 second penalty seemed like a lot due to how close to the cars were, but in reality, that penalty is pretty much the weakest available. People complain about the stewards taking time to make their minds up. People complain about them making their minds up quickly. They can't please everyone. I think they were right in this case.

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

DOLOMITE wrote:I find it frustrating that people are referring to Hamilton understeering. There's no sign of any understeer - at all. The steering , the front wheels, angle of the car - it all lines up perfectly, nothing suggesting any kind of loss of traction. From his onboard, the car was under total control at all times.

To me it just looks like a rock-solid bit of defensive driving - and I feel Albon should have expected nothing less from Hamilton. You can't assume the job is done just because you've managed to get your front wheels alongside. That's not racing. A few people have said he was "past" Hamilton - well I don't know if there's a definition for that, but certainly his entire car wasn't past Hamilton - if it was they wouldn't have made contact! Has back wheels never pass Hamiltons fronts.

Albon has said he was already focusing on Bottas - well perhaps he shouldn't have been doing that until Hamilton was firmly in his mirrors....
One can maintain full control of their car while fighting understeer. Hamilton did just that via his throttle control in this very corner. While the car was fully under control at all times,, he was fully locked to the right as seen from the steering wheel input, but while he's in full control, he's on the limit of adhesion of the front tires and if he accelerated the front would have pushed a bit outward rather than bite, and that is definitely understeer. And that's only because of the trajectory Lewis chose to take in taking that corner while pushing Albon wide.

As you stated, it was a rock-solid & masterful bit of defensive/offensive driving and Albon and his Red Bull had the cornering advantage there, but Albon had to utilize all the real estate Hamilton left him in order to pull off the move and make it stick, and that last bit… the "Making it Stick" bit is the hardest thing to do. Hamilton was so well positioned that if Albon had taken the position, Lewis had the speed in tow to get the over under and take the position back, at which point the Red Bull's tires may have been overcooked. Perez and either Norris or Sainz had a similar tussle laps earlier and Perez took the position back, but by then his tires were a little worse for wear and he didn't have quite enough to retake the position and hold it.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by dsf1 »

Pest44 wrote:It would be great to see Albon’s onboard footage which for whatever reason hasn’t been produced yet. It seems to me Albon had more room on his left to use which he didn’t. I think it’s a clear cut racing incident which considering the new mantra was meant to be ‘let them race’ I’m surprised that wasn’t the verdict by the stewards.
Couldn't agree with this more :thumbup:

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Re: Austria '20 Hamilton/Albon

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Who was at fault for this incident between Hamilton and Ricciardo?



The stewards deemed this Hamilton’s fault and gave him a drive through penalty. No one objected the decision, from what I remember.
Well, this came to my mind as well even though it is quite different. But what we should look into is the harshness of the penalty. What hamilton did to albon certainly wasn't as clumsy as this, but the penalty was also incredibly mild compared. A 5 second penalty seemed like a lot due to how close to the cars were, but in reality, that penalty is pretty much the weakest available. People complain about the stewards taking time to make their minds up. People complain about them making their minds up quickly. They can't please everyone. I think they were right in this case.
As you say, it was quite different. However, the similarity lies in how Hamilton Understeered, but in this incident, his positioning and trajectory was more extreme and purposeful, rather than purely trying to make the corner cleanly whilst forcing Ricciardo wide. That said, it could be argued that Ricciardo also steered in a bit more than he needed to as well. But then, when is the time right to turn in? The issue lies in how the track confines are enforced, or rather, how arbitrarily the track confines are enforced.

I've made the argument for years now that drivers should keep it inside the white lines, PERIOD, and should only exceed track limits if there is contact or the threat of contact. They have no issues staying within the white lines at the absurdity that is Monaco and even in Canada, with the wall of champions and any other bit of track that has hard limits, they can keep it on track just fine, so there is no reason they can't do the same on every other track.

The notion that you can take 2 or even 3 tires over the white line needs to stop. What if that was a cliff's edge, would the car then be able to put even a single tire over the edge? No. THAT is the problem. That said, Hamilton left Albon enough room to the white line and therefore the contact was Albon's fault. In the Ricciardo incident, Lewis' understeer/move forced Ricciardo off the track, and that's why he got the penalty then, and rightfully so.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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