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 Post subject: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 10:53 am 
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there are so many stories out there about merc top officials contemplating their f1 future, toto getting involved in aston, merc supplying mclaren engines etc

my belief is merc f1 will be put up for sale. any ideas of who may purchase them ?


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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 2:35 pm 
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Frank Williams??? Sounds like he's off Williams, Merc sounds a more profitable project at the moment!


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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 4:52 pm 
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I know that's just humorous banter, but it made me feel disgusted to read. Even if let's say they sold the team to Sir Frank for all of $1 and he re-badges it Williams, it wouldn't hold water with me. The thing I love about Williams to this day is that every component on their cars has been designed and manufactured by them with the exception of a few items that are outsourced. And they're still actually quite nifty at discovering the most efficient aero systems in the world, and the common nose on F1 teams since the turbo era was designed by Williams first and everyone else took notice and followed suit.

Williams messed up when it went public and didn't grow and diversify their road car division's portfolio of clients in order to generate a higher volume of global sales.
Their KERS system is one that took off initially but last I read (a few years ago) things were going just ok and not too much growth for them financially, and they eventually sold a majority stake that division which was a mistake. While it wasn't a gold mine for them, it still generated and netted profits overall. And when you're a team that's been struggling financially for all these years, every last dollar counts.

Overall poor management from the top down is to blame for their downward spiral from excellence and if you've been paying attention, it started with Frank's decline in health. He was young and virile enough still after his accident and because he was in such great physical condition at the time, he was able to continue running his F1 team for a few more decades, but as he aged his his ability to stay active began to decline and his health began to deteriorate. And the downward trajectory of the team is coincides with his decline, every year a bit worse than the last, with the odd off year here and there where they did a decent job and were competitive.

I would much prefer Williams pulls off a miracle and produces a car for 2022 (if they survive that long) that's competitive towards the front of the grid.

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:23 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I know that's just humorous banter, but it made me feel disgusted to read. Even if let's say they sold the team to Sir Frank for all of $1 and he re-badges it Williams, it wouldn't hold water with me. The thing I love about Williams to this day is that every component on their cars has been designed and manufactured by them with the exception of a few items that are outsourced. And they're still actually quite nifty at discovering the most efficient aero systems in the world, and the common nose on F1 teams since the turbo era was designed by Williams first and everyone else took notice and followed suit.

Williams messed up when it went public and didn't grow and diversify their road car division's portfolio of clients in order to generate a higher volume of global sales.
Their KERS system is one that took off initially but last I read (a few years ago) things were going just ok and not too much growth for them financially, and they eventually sold a majority stake that division which was a mistake. While it wasn't a gold mine for them, it still generated and netted profits overall. And when you're a team that's been struggling financially for all these years, every last dollar counts.

Overall poor management from the top down is to blame for their downward spiral from excellence and if you've been paying attention, it started with Frank's decline in health. He was young and virile enough still after his accident and because he was in such great physical condition at the time, he was able to continue running his F1 team for a few more decades, but as he aged his his ability to stay active began to decline and his health began to deteriorate. And the downward trajectory of the team is coincides with his decline, every year a bit worse than the last, with the odd off year here and there where they did a decent job and were competitive.

I would much prefer Williams pulls off a miracle and produces a car for 2022 (if they survive that long) that's competitive towards the front of the grid.


I was only jesting as you said F1Mercenary, I didn't think that you'd have such a response. Apologies mate.

I agree with the rest, it is sad to see Williams go downhill, but we've seen it before with the likes of Lotus, while McLaren are not doing much better lately. Big teams can fold too. Unfortunately after '98 Williams stopped being a huge force, with the most striking exception in the early 00's I guess when they did well with their BMW partnership, but never to the heights of the 80's and 90's. I can remember some proper catastrophic years (didn't they get something like 20 retirements out of 36 starts in 2006?).

I'd rather see a miracle too, but I don't think we can expect one unfortunately


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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:28 pm 
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A miracle I don't think is required now the building blocks are in place I think 4-5 years and they will be top 3 again, such bad luck with Paddy Lowe that did last year otherwise it could have been a whole lot different how unlucky was it that he did his worst in his career but he did try something out of the box apparently. But having no parts to run in testing last year was unforgivable of him that's why Claire fired him.


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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:59 pm 
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If you read Montoya's opinion on Williams' current situation, you'd likely have seen the bit about how William's biggest problem is in HOW they utilize the top talent they recruit and hire. He feels they force people the likes of Paddy Lowe into performing job duties that are perhaps not their strong suit and thus create and build on their problems rather than right the ship, and I am inclined to agree.

With Paddy Lowe specifically, before being rehired by Williams, the teams he was with enjoyed periods of excellent performance success. However, once he reached Williams, much like Rob Smedley and others before him, we didn't get to see them in their usual roles and the team didn't improve much at all. When you acquire personnel the likes of a Paddy Lowe and a James Allen, a Ross Brawn, and Jean Todt, A Flavio Briatore, A Pat Frye, you have to let these people do what they do best in order for them to best help lead the team towards the front of the grid. Otherwise you end up with the cluster "YOU-KNOW-WHAT" we're seeing with Williams where the team's only hope now is to be sold and have nothing to do with the family/brand anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:46 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
If you read Montoya's opinion on Williams' current situation, you'd likely have seen the bit about how William's biggest problem is in HOW they utilize the top talent they recruit and hire. He feels they force people the likes of Paddy Lowe into performing job duties that are perhaps not their strong suit and thus create and build on their problems rather than right the ship, and I am inclined to agree.

With Paddy Lowe specifically, before being rehired by Williams, the teams he was with enjoyed periods of excellent performance success. However, once he reached Williams, much like Rob Smedley and others before him, we didn't get to see them in their usual roles and the team didn't improve much at all. When you acquire personnel the likes of a Paddy Lowe and a James Allen, a Ross Brawn, and Jean Todt, A Flavio Briatore, A Pat Frye, you have to let these people do what they do best in order for them to best help lead the team towards the front of the grid. Otherwise you end up with the cluster "YOU-KNOW-WHAT" we're seeing with Williams where the team's only hope now is to be sold and have nothing to do with the family/brand anymore.

Well it does ask the question what does Clare Williams do?

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:30 pm 
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I reckon she asks a ton of questions, appoints people to roles she feels they are best suited for, then doles out directives, and finally, she makes most of the crucial day to day decisions. based on what she thinks she knows. It's just my guess, but I'm sure I'm not too far off.

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:41 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I reckon she asks a ton of questions, appoints people to roles she feels they are best suited for, then doles out directives, and finally, she makes most of the crucial day to day decisions. based on what she thinks she knows. It's just my guess, but I'm sure I'm not too far off.

That's pretty much what any top level manager does, so I expect you're right.

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:34 pm 
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And THAT is the biggest problem Williams is faced with. Because by managing people and not letting them do what they KNOW how to do, you stifle development and progress. I've worked with supposed "Top" Level, Ivy league educated "managers and outside of 2, all the rest were buffoons in expensive suits and shoes and couldn't hit the floor with a rock if they tried!!!

The really great managers (myself included) assess personnel and look for their strengths and weaknesses and place them in roles where their strengths help productivity and at the same time bring to their attention their weaker points and offer guidance as to how best to improve int hose areas.

And Usually the best managers are those who came up through the ranks and learned as much as they could from as many people and departments and have a more complete understanding of the entire operation.

People like Claire unfortunately inherit roles for whom they are and not what they know, and often lack experience that can only be garnered via learning hands-on for many years.

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:37 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I reckon she asks a ton of questions, appoints people to roles she feels they are best suited for, then doles out directives, and finally, she makes most of the crucial day to day decisions. based on what she thinks she knows. It's just my guess, but I'm sure I'm not too far off.

So it's Clare that's putting people in the wrong positions?

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:23 am 
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I think it's fanciful to suggest that Paddy Lowe moved to Williams F1, then was subsequently pigeon-holed into a role by Claire Williams.

That's not how recruitment works. It's more likely Paddy was interested in the position at Williams and there was a negotiation. He would have known he was going to do that role and was not going to be doing the same role he did at Mercedes.

So some of the blame must lay at his feet, not just Williams ownership/management. He convinced them he was capable of leading the car development and ultimately the car was very late for the first test and ran very few laps. It also never performed.


In terms of Claire, I think she has a lot of passion for the team and she is not terrible. The team has improved since those issues. But it also must be recognised that Williams went from podium placings and in a strong financial position to now being a clear back marker and financially in trouble. In most companies that would be a CEO resignation for sure and probably a shake-up of the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I reckon she asks a ton of questions, appoints people to roles she feels they are best suited for, then doles out directives, and finally, she makes most of the crucial day to day decisions. based on what she thinks she knows. It's just my guess, but I'm sure I'm not too far off.

So it's Clare that's putting people in the wrong positions?

If you read what JPM said, it's quite possible, yes, being as she is the boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:48 pm 
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oz_karter wrote:
I think it's fanciful to suggest that Paddy Lowe moved to Williams F1, then was subsequently pigeon-holed into a role by Claire Williams.

That's not how recruitment works. It's more likely Paddy was interested in the position at Williams and there was a negotiation. He would have known he was going to do that role and was not going to be doing the same role he did at Mercedes.

So some of the blame must lay at his feet, not just Williams ownership/management. He convinced them he was capable of leading the car development and ultimately the car was very late for the first test and ran very few laps. It also never performed.


In terms of Claire, I think she has a lot of passion for the team and she is not terrible. The team has improved since those issues. But it also must be recognised that Williams went from podium placings and in a strong financial position to now being a clear back marker and financially in trouble. In most companies that would be a CEO resignation for sure and probably a shake-up of the board.

In regards to Paddy Lowe I often wondered if he merely looked good riding the coat tails of others?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
I think it's fanciful to suggest that Paddy Lowe moved to Williams F1, then was subsequently pigeon-holed into a role by Claire Williams.

That's not how recruitment works. It's more likely Paddy was interested in the position at Williams and there was a negotiation. He would have known he was going to do that role and was not going to be doing the same role he did at Mercedes.

So some of the blame must lay at his feet, not just Williams ownership/management. He convinced them he was capable of leading the car development and ultimately the car was very late for the first test and ran very few laps. It also never performed.


In terms of Claire, I think she has a lot of passion for the team and she is not terrible. The team has improved since those issues. But it also must be recognised that Williams went from podium placings and in a strong financial position to now being a clear back marker and financially in trouble. In most companies that would be a CEO resignation for sure and probably a shake-up of the board.

In regards to Paddy Lowe I often wondered if he merely looked good riding the coat tails of others?

It's never that simple. People like to create these myths around the technical heads, using mental gymnastics to condense a department of hundreds into one person. To hear a lot of F1 fans talk, Red Bull's aero department is just Adrian Newey hunched over a drafting board.

Take James Allison for example. He was hailed as hugely successful at Lotus, so when he went to Ferrari people expected great things of him. He wasn't successful there, so suddenly he's overrated -- then he turns up at Mercedes and their cars are great, so he's a top designer again.

F1 technical departments are enormous, and the direct impact of the guy at the top is far smaller than many people think. Responsibility is not the same thing as causation; Paddy Lowe has responsibility for the failures at Williams because he was in charge when it happened. That doesn't mean he was the sole (or even main) cause of the failures.

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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:01 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
I think it's fanciful to suggest that Paddy Lowe moved to Williams F1, then was subsequently pigeon-holed into a role by Claire Williams.

That's not how recruitment works. It's more likely Paddy was interested in the position at Williams and there was a negotiation. He would have known he was going to do that role and was not going to be doing the same role he did at Mercedes.

So some of the blame must lay at his feet, not just Williams ownership/management. He convinced them he was capable of leading the car development and ultimately the car was very late for the first test and ran very few laps. It also never performed.


In terms of Claire, I think she has a lot of passion for the team and she is not terrible. The team has improved since those issues. But it also must be recognised that Williams went from podium placings and in a strong financial position to now being a clear back marker and financially in trouble. In most companies that would be a CEO resignation for sure and probably a shake-up of the board.

In regards to Paddy Lowe I often wondered if he merely looked good riding the coat tails of others?

It's never that simple. People like to create these myths around the technical heads, using mental gymnastics to condense a department of hundreds into one person. To hear a lot of F1 fans talk, Red Bull's aero department is just Adrian Newey hunched over a drafting board.

Take James Allison for example. He was hailed as hugely successful at Lotus, so when he went to Ferrari people expected great things of him. He wasn't successful there, so suddenly he's overrated -- then he turns up at Mercedes and their cars are great, so he's a top designer again.

F1 technical departments are enormous, and the direct impact of the guy at the top is far smaller than many people think. Responsibility is not the same thing as causation; Paddy Lowe has responsibility for the failures at Williams because he was in charge when it happened. That doesn't mean he was the sole (or even main) cause of the failures.

Exactly this. I think people put far too much emphasis on the role played by the chief engineer or team principal. Yes a bad one is going to be found out pretty quickly, but a team's fortunes is much more dependent upon the facilities at their disposal and the number of staff they have.


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 Post subject: Re: Mercedes F1
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:50 am 
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When it comes to paddy lowe you only need to answer the question. Why did Merc not resign him??? If he was important to the team why did they not bother to resign him? How successful was his car that was supposed to be the car to turn Williams around? It was his car in the second year and it flopped. When your the top guy the target is on your back.


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