planetf1.com

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

Ah, some blasts from the past in that thread. I wonder where some posters are

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Johnson wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.

That isn’t really true because Rosberg only attempted to overtake Hamilton once over all of 2015 and 2016 and it was clean pass at Austin... So how can you say Hamilton would rather crash that let him by?

Even at the start? I think I remember Hamilton pushing Rosberg off at turn 1 at some point but I could be wrong.

I think we need to distinguish between slight contact and contact at a level that causes serious damage.

A lot of the time though can be incidental.

Look at the Ferrari's in Brazil. Very slight contact that caused both to retire. Any contact is a big risk. Sometimes you get away with it sometimes you don't.

True but any contact Hamilton had with Rosberg was on low speed corners with a bit of wheel rubbing, calculated not to cause damage, far worse was Hamilton's contact with Albon in Brazil last year when He admitted he took a risk and then admitted fault.

With Rosberg I believe the calculated risk didn't go much further than needing to stop Hamilton from passing him.

Also when you relate it to Vettel and Leclerc the higher the speed you chose to play games with your opponent then the more risk that things might go wrong.

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the racetrack in an unsafe menner - but for some reason, this didn't get looked at. But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.

Pushing a driver off on corner entry has generally been treated differently to corner exit. I think it's basically because if you allow a move like Rosberg's in Austria then that basically ends overtaking in corners full stop. The driver on the inside just doesn't turn until he pushes the guy on the outside off. That could be done by any driver who is overtaking or defending up the inside. It would make DRS passes on the straight the only viable way to overtake somebody. Worth noting as well that Hamilton was ahead of Rosberg at corner entry so allowing it would effectively give carte blanche to however managed to get the inside line in any racing situation.

I would like to see pushing drivers off on the outside as Hamilton did in the US stamped out as well. The problem is we see it all the time and the stewards never ever penalise it. So how could they in that one particular case? It would go against every precedent.

So while I would like to see a penalty applied for that type of manoeuvre It would hardly be fair to call for one in that particular case whilst everyone else has got off scot free.

One caveat to Austin 2015 was that the track was wet so the grip wouldn't have been on the inside of the corner so the natural line was more to the outside of the corner anyway.

Rockie wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the race track in an unsafe manner. But for some reason, this didn't get looked at. He also overtook Rosberg in sector 2 that had yellow flags where Perez had his issue. Why didn't they look at either of these things? But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.

Austin was worse, the reason for not punishing there was ridiculous, it was a deliberate attempt by Hamilton opening the steering mid corner.

Had it been a driver from another team, the team manager would have been on the radio to the race director straightaway.

Rosberg listening to Ross Brawn in Malaysia cooked his goose throughout his stay at Mercedes, as Hamilton's infringement is seen as him pushing the limit whereas Rosberg's is seen as crossing the line see Bahrain and Spa in Bahrain Rosberg didn't stand his ground n Hamilton got away with whereas at Spa he decided to not avoid the collision by standing his ground.

So one driver actually steering around a corner was worse than another driver not even attempting to steer around a corner, I will leave it at that.

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

There's 9 pages to read so I didn't go there, however how can one driver beat another driver fair and square when neither even completed one lap?

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the race track in an unsafe manner. But for some reason, this didn't get looked at. He also overtook Rosberg in sector 2 that had yellow flags where Perez had his issue. Why didn't they look at either of these things? But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.

Austin was worse, the reason for not punishing there was ridiculous, it was a deliberate attempt by Hamilton opening the steering mid corner.

Had it been a driver from another team, the team manager would have been on the radio to the race director straightaway.

Rosberg listening to Ross Brawn in Malaysia cooked his goose throughout his stay at Mercedes, as Hamilton's infringement is seen as him pushing the limit whereas Rosberg's is seen as crossing the line see Bahrain and Spa in Bahrain Rosberg didn't stand his ground n Hamilton got away with whereas at Spa he decided to not avoid the collision by standing his ground.

So one driver actually steering around a corner was worse than another driver not even attempting to steer around a corner, I will leave it at that.

How was he steering around the corner he had made the corner but there was even more grip for Rosberg around the outside and Hamilton deliberately opened his steering, both were deliberate incidents.

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

That's er... somewhat baffling? He retired lap 1. How did he have a strong drive?

Edit: That link is too the Bahrain race thread not the Spanish one

mikeyg123 wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

That's er... somewhat baffling? He retired lap 1. How did he have a strong drive?

Edit: That link is too the Bahrain race thread not the Spanish one

I think this is the thread people are looking for, that is if anyone can be bothered to pick through 19 pages of bickering:

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13436

Interestingly the result of the poll is almost perfectly symmetrical in terms of the distribution of blame and appropriate severity of punishment.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the race track in an unsafe manner. But for some reason, this didn't get looked at. He also overtook Rosberg in sector 2 that had yellow flags where Perez had his issue. Why didn't they look at either of these things? But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.

Austin was worse, the reason for not punishing there was ridiculous, it was a deliberate attempt by Hamilton opening the steering mid corner.

Had it been a driver from another team, the team manager would have been on the radio to the race director straightaway.

Rosberg listening to Ross Brawn in Malaysia cooked his goose throughout his stay at Mercedes, as Hamilton's infringement is seen as him pushing the limit whereas Rosberg's is seen as crossing the line see Bahrain and Spa in Bahrain Rosberg didn't stand his ground n Hamilton got away with whereas at Spa he decided to not avoid the collision by standing his ground.

So one driver actually steering around a corner was worse than another driver not even attempting to steer around a corner, I will leave it at that.

How was he steering around the corner he had made the corner but there was even more grip for Rosberg around the outside and Hamilton deliberately opened his steering, both were deliberate incidents.

He was still steering left and not going straight on like Rosberg in Austria.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

That's er... somewhat baffling? He retired lap 1. How did he have a strong drive?

Edit: That link is too the Bahrain race thread not the Spanish one

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

There's 9 pages to read so I didn't go there, however how can one driver beat another driver fair and square when neither even completed one lap?

I think because when you click on it, it doesn't take you to Barcelona, but Bahrain GP for some reason...

Is it only my browser that does that?

Edit: never mind, I read the rest of the messages!

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

There's 9 pages to read so I didn't go there, however how can one driver beat another driver fair and square when neither even completed one lap?

I think because when you click on it, it doesn't take you to Barcelona, but Bahrain GP for some reason...

Is it only my browser that does that?

Edit: never mind, I read the rest of the messages!

Yeah if I'd read it myself I quickly would have realised that.

Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.

I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:
If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

Alright, what’s your excuse for a Brazil 2019 then? The world title was already decided and it was a straight fight between the two for victory, nothing to lose. Max overtook Lewis twice and then it was Lewis who turned desperate towards the end of the race and crashed with Albon.

I think Lewis simply lacks confidence when racing against Max wheel-to-wheel. Max is the only driver who can get in his head.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:
If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

Alright, what’s your excuse for a Brazil 2019 then? The world title was already decided and it was a straight fight between the two for victory, nothing to lose. Max overtook Lewis twice and then it was Lewis who turned desperate towards the end of the race and crashed with Albon.

I think Lewis simply lacks confidence when racing against Max wheel-to-wheel. Max is the only driver who can get in his head.

One example from quite a few years, that's like me saying Hamilton is in Verstappens head because Hamilton overtook Verstappen in Hungary.

I would rather see a bigger pool of races with both drivers racing in fairly equal cars to really make a big statement that Hamilton lacks confidence in racing against anyone.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:
If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

Alright, what’s your excuse for a Brazil 2019 then? The world title was already decided and it was a straight fight between the two for victory, nothing to lose. Max overtook Lewis twice and then it was Lewis who turned desperate towards the end of the race and crashed with Albon.

I think Lewis simply lacks confidence when racing against Max wheel-to-wheel. Max is the only driver who can get in his head.

RB in Brazil 2019 was the BEST car and had certainly the best PU for that race. Just watch the speed of Albon at the restart.
And just to make things worse, Verstappen had brand new tyres at the restart.

It is funny nobody ever mention the competitivity of RB cars because they look at VER's teammates who can not drive his set ups apparently. It is like the repeat of ALO's career.

Johnson wrote:

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:Just quickly watched his view on the Hamilton incident. As you can see, he jokes about Hamilton pushing him off the road on T1 at Austin. This is the dominant feature of the Hamilton vs Rosberg era. Rosberg outlines after, that Hamilton could always find that 'grey' area between getting a penalty and not getting a penalty, which he mentions is a very difficult thing to do. I believe, because Hamilton repeatedly pushed Rosberg off the track in their wheel-to-wheel battles, Rosberg wanted to reciprocate this. However, unlike Rosberg, Hamilton doesn't back out when a gap is closing. The incidents (Spain, Belgium) in which Rosberg becomes a bit more aggressive also happened to have much worse consequences.

This has been something I've talked about a decent amount and maybe a couple of forumers here know me for it. The idea behind 'let them race' is counterintuitive. If we don't penalise drivers for pushing the other off the track, it disincentivises the drivers on the outside line from engaging in wheel to wheel driving. This is becoming more and more of a problem as we move towards tarmac runoffs.

That is simply untrue, very rarely or ever did Hamilton close a gap on Rosberg. If he took a liberty it was was on corner exit and pushed him onto paved run off.

Rosberg was the one that wouldn’t back down, Spain, Spa and Austria. All Rosberg going over board. All result in lost places, lost wins and car damage.

The times when Hamilton pushed the limits - Bahrain 14, Hungary 14, Austin 15, Japan 15, they 1-2 three of those races without any damage in any incident or even a loss of a single place for either car.

Hamilton was just vastly superior in wheel to wheel combat and knew how to position his car in a safe way and minimise the risk. Barcelona was a joke, Rosberg defended a car that was going over 20 mph faster. Try weaving in front of a car on the motorway that’s going 90mph when you are going 70mph, it’s a huge speed differential.

Ask yourself how ROS managed to launch itself like a rocket at the start in Barcelona 2016 only to be stuck in the next 2 corners.
He started that race with the "wrong" engine settings.
Rosberg, the quasi engineer, of all the drivers. LOL good joke. He was 2 corners away from winning.

Rockie wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the race track in an unsafe manner. But for some reason, this didn't get looked at. He also overtook Rosberg in sector 2 that had yellow flags where Perez had his issue. Why didn't they look at either of these things? But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.

Austin was worse, the reason for not punishing there was ridiculous, it was a deliberate attempt by Hamilton opening the steering mid corner.

Had it been a driver from another team, the team manager would have been on the radio to the race director straightaway.

Rosberg listening to Ross Brawn in Malaysia cooked his goose throughout his stay at Mercedes, as Hamilton's infringement is seen as him pushing the limit whereas Rosberg's is seen as crossing the line see Bahrain and Spa in Bahrain Rosberg didn't stand his ground n Hamilton got away with whereas at Spa he decided to not avoid the collision by standing his ground.

Hamilton didn't open the wheel. You need a re-watch...
https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=587
Clumsy, but he just understeers into him. Lap 1 in the damp.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:
If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

Alright, what’s your excuse for a Brazil 2019 then? The world title was already decided and it was a straight fight between the two for victory, nothing to lose. Max overtook Lewis twice and then it was Lewis who turned desperate towards the end of the race and crashed with Albon.

I think Lewis simply lacks confidence when racing against Max wheel-to-wheel. Max is the only driver who can get in his head.

Hungary 2019? Not too dissimilar to Austin 2018: Hamilton on relatively fresh tyres closing in on Verstappen on old tyres. No concerns with passing him then. Also, if I recall correctly, they'd gone wheel to wheel earlier in that race through two or three corners, quite cleanly.
I'd say that the only concern Hamilton may have is if that Red Bull is on the pace of the Mercedes. Verstappen is a pretty formidable (and pretty well-matured) driver.

With the crash in Spain it was so marginal.

Literally if Rosberg was 0.2 seconds quicker in moving to the right... Hamilton is into the back of his right tyre and the incident is 100% his fault.

Rosberg knew exactly what he was doing, but Hamilton did drive into a closing gap

TBH I think incidents like this get over analysed. Rosberg is looking in a mirror (the size of a smart phone screen), - vibrating at 150 mph, and Hamilton is driving instinctively. Whilst they 'knew' what they were doing - was their much thought behind it....... probably not.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.

I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.

Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:
If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

Alright, what’s your excuse for a Brazil 2019 then? The world title was already decided and it was a straight fight between the two for victory, nothing to lose. Max overtook Lewis twice and then it was Lewis who turned desperate towards the end of the race and crashed with Albon.

I think Lewis simply lacks confidence when racing against Max wheel-to-wheel. Max is the only driver who can get in his head.

I only remember one pass when Hamilton got held up behind Leclerc and Verstappen got a run on him and passed him on the straight, was the other a SC restart with Verstappen on new tyres and Hamilton on old tyres?

Anyway the Mercedes was slow on the straight as it tended to be at the high altitude races, remember the last lap sprint against Gasly were Gasly was able to drive away from him.

In regards to Albon, yes a desperate pass by Hamilton but having to make amends for yet another terrible strategy error from his team.

With respect to Verstappen let's see how he performs when a WDC is on the line, let's not give credit yet until credit is earned, taking risk sometimes comes with a fall, a driver being able to pass cleanly is often in the hands of the defending driver, Hamilton not contacting Verstappen's car is Hamilton being weak?

Johnson wrote:

Rockie wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the race track in an unsafe manner. But for some reason, this didn't get looked at. He also overtook Rosberg in sector 2 that had yellow flags where Perez had his issue. Why didn't they look at either of these things? But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.

Austin was worse, the reason for not punishing there was ridiculous, it was a deliberate attempt by Hamilton opening the steering mid corner.

Had it been a driver from another team, the team manager would have been on the radio to the race director straightaway.

Rosberg listening to Ross Brawn in Malaysia cooked his goose throughout his stay at Mercedes, as Hamilton's infringement is seen as him pushing the limit whereas Rosberg's is seen as crossing the line see Bahrain and Spa in Bahrain Rosberg didn't stand his ground n Hamilton got away with whereas at Spa he decided to not avoid the collision by standing his ground.

Hamilton didn't open the wheel. You need a re-watch...
https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=587
Clumsy, but he just understeers into him. Lap 1 in the damp.

Yeah I pointed out that the track was wet,the grip is on the outside, however I didn't go down the understeer route on the less grippy part of the track because I wasn't sure.

tootsie323 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

Alright, what’s your excuse for a Brazil 2019 then? The world title was already decided and it was a straight fight between the two for victory, nothing to lose. Max overtook Lewis twice and then it was Lewis who turned desperate towards the end of the race and crashed with Albon.

I think Lewis simply lacks confidence when racing against Max wheel-to-wheel. Max is the only driver who can get in his head.

Hungary 2019? Not too dissimilar to Austin 2018: Hamilton on relatively fresh tyres closing in on Verstappen on old tyres. No concerns with passing him then. Also, if I recall correctly, they'd gone wheel to wheel earlier in that race through two or three corners, quite cleanly.
I'd say that the only concern Hamilton may have is if that Red Bull is on the pace of the Mercedes. Verstappen is a pretty formidable (and pretty well-matured) driver.

Yeah Verstappen will be a weapon in a WDC capable car.

Pullrod wrote:It is funny nobody ever mention the competitivity of RB cars because they look at VER's teammates who can not drive his set ups apparently. It is like the repeat of ALO's career.

Exactly like Alonso's career. The 'teammate unable to drive his setup' excuse is trotted out whenever people want to discredit a dominant driver. We saw it with Schumi, then Alonso, now Verstappen. Holds no water, IMO.

I'm of the opinion that the second Verstappen actually becomes a genuine WDC rival that Lewis will very quickly stop leaving Max to pass him fairly unopposed. Until now, it's simply not been his fight (a lesson I think the year of constantly tangling with Massa has taught him) and will continue to not be his fight unless Red Bull can come up with the goods for Verstappen to challenge on an even footing on a constant basis.

If that doesn't happen, it's safer to let Max have his odd day in the sun while still accumulating the big points and aiming for the real prize at the end of the year. Learning that lesson is what leads me to think that Lewis is one of the more complete champions ever in his current form, sheer outright speed, relentless race pace but matched to a racing knowledge that allows you to choose your battles carefully... for a Senna fan, it's somewhat humorous that Hamilton is becoming more like Prost.

Exediron wrote:

Pullrod wrote:It is funny nobody ever mention the competitivity of RB cars because they look at VER's teammates who can not drive his set ups apparently. It is like the repeat of ALO's career.

Exactly like Alonso's career. The 'teammate unable to drive his setup' excuse is trotted out whenever people want to discredit a dominant driver. We saw it with Schumi, then Alonso, now Verstappen. Holds no water, IMO.

TBH I think it sounds like more of a compliment. Alonso, Verstappen and Schumacher were all generational talents and I think it stands to reason that they were good enough to be able to drive cars set up in a way that your more traditional drivers simply cant handle. If the other driver doesnt have the talent to keep it on the black stuff at speed.... well that's on them.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

https://forum.planetf1.com/viewtopic.ph ... 016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

That's er... somewhat baffling? He retired lap 1. How did he have a strong drive?

Edit: That link is too the Bahrain race thread not the Spanish one

Yes I know, I forgot the sarcasm tags... Bet it wasn't the reply Greenman was expecting.

Exediron wrote:

Pullrod wrote:It is funny nobody ever mention the competitivity of RB cars because they look at VER's teammates who can not drive his set ups apparently. It is like the repeat of ALO's career.

Exactly like Alonso's career. The 'teammate unable to drive his setup' excuse is trotted out whenever people want to discredit a dominant driver. We saw it with Schumi, then Alonso, now Verstappen. Holds no water, IMO.

Look, I have spent the beginning of my career working on vehicle dynamics and during my degree, I have was in the formula student team of one of the best universities in Europe. We built a simulator for our team and one of our project was an attempt to read driver technique signatures and to adapt the car to it.

Drivers don't drive the same way, and if you think the slower teammate are ch*mps it only mean you don't know the maths behind it. There is always a reason behind it. Always. So Talent alone can not put 6 tenths on a driver. Not in this era at least. Simply impossible with all the data available.

It is like you are left handed or can you use both your hands but your teammate can only correctly use his right hand. It doesn't mean the driver using only the right can not be fast, just that in the right condition he can be as fast if not faster than his more polyvalent teammate.

It is the team responsibility to ensure both the drivers can drive as fast as possible something Alonso teams and now Verstappen for different reason failed to do.

I want to bring to your attention that in 2012 for example, McLaren, after BUT was lapped by HAM in Canada, formed a team of engineers to study HAM's car and telemetry to save BUT's year. The same thing happened in Mercedes in 2013 where ROS was constantly using more fuel than HAM during races and was slow mostly at the end of races.

McLaren and Mercedes during HAM's time would dismantle Lewis's team every single time and assign some of Lewis's best engineers to his teammate. Do you know how it works in RedBull? Gasly for example was left dry and Dr. Marko and Horner have no intention to even "balance" their drivers performance. All the best bits are for Verstappen. Not that it is unjustified, but the difference on track can only be bigger this way.

Badgeronimous wrote:With the crash in Spain it was so marginal.

Literally if Rosberg was 0.2 seconds quicker in moving to the right... Hamilton is into the back of his right tyre and the incident is 100% his fault.

Rosberg knew exactly what he was doing, but Hamilton did drive into a closing gap

TBH I think incidents like this get over analysed. Rosberg is looking in a mirror (the size of a smart phone screen), - vibrating at 150 mph, and Hamilton is driving instinctively. Whilst they 'knew' what they were doing - was their much thought behind it....... probably not.

Yeah to me it was Lewis's fault. He just chose the wrong side. Rosbergs car was in the middle of the track but he was clearly moving to the inside, which is the obvious defensive move anyway. Lewis saw it late and decided to go to the inside. If Lewis reads the move properly he goes on the outside and blows past Rosberg. I really don't think that Rosberg would have gone back to the outside to block an ouside pass.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:
If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

Alright, what’s your excuse for a Brazil 2019 then? The world title was already decided and it was a straight fight between the two for victory, nothing to lose. Max overtook Lewis twice and then it was Lewis who turned desperate towards the end of the race and crashed with Albon.

I think Lewis simply lacks confidence when racing against Max wheel-to-wheel. Max is the only driver who can get in his head.

I actually relate Lewis's Brazil drive with Max's Monaco drive from the same year. They were the single contestant who gave each race its competitive interest and for whatever reason they ended off the podium.

I think it's true that Lewis is not as sure of himself wheel-to-wheel with Verstappen as he is with the others on the grid, which will make the next season very interesting as I want to see if it's something he can resolve or not. Conversely, I've never seen Max so antsy on the radio as he was in Hungary.

Pullrod wrote:RB in Brazil 2019 was the BEST car and had certainly the best PU for that race. Just watch the speed of Albon at the restart.
And just to make things worse, Verstappen had brand new tyres at the restart.

I don't actually think that Red Bull was any quicker than Mercedes on Sunday. The gap between Verstappen and Hamilton was stable in the first stint, Verstappen was quicker at the start but Hamilton had better tyre wear and looked stronger towards the end of the stint. In the middle stint Verstappen was a bit quicker but also had a fresh set of tyres while Hamilton was on scrubbed tyres. Once they switched to medium tyres, Hamilton looked faster to me and Verstappen was holding him up. Then the safety car came out and they went on separate strategies. At that point any direct pace comparison is no longer possible. As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.

pokerman wrote:I only remember one pass when Hamilton got held up behind Leclerc and Verstappen got a run on him and passed him on the straight, was the other a SC restart with Verstappen on new tyres and Hamilton on old tyres?

Overtakes in F1 are not made in a vacuum.

Verstappen was significantly more aggressive and assertive in overtaking Leclerc than Hamilton was, who wasted too much time behind the Ferrari. If Verstappen does not dive down the inside at Junção, he is not in a position to overtake Hamilton the following straight, and then who knows how the rest of the race plays out?

Johnson wrote:Hamilton didn't open the wheel. You need a re-watch...
https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=587
Clumsy, but he just understeers into him. Lap 1 in the damp.

Hilarious how you've somehow literally ignored Martin Brundle's commentary on that exact incident about 20 seconds later into your clip:

https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=608

"He's just run him out of space, didn't turn the steering wheel"

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.

I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.

Austin 2015 was Hamiltons fault, but he understeered into Rosberg in the wet. You can tell he is sliding because he and Rosberg have the same angle of steering, yet Hamilton goes straight on. I never said Rosberg caused Austin.

A driver pushing another one, fully onto the grass in the middle of a straight is a rare thing in F1. Thankfully.

KingVoid wrote:

Johnson wrote:Hamilton didn't open the wheel. You need a re-watch...
https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=587
Clumsy, but he just understeers into him. Lap 1 in the damp.

Hilarious how you've somehow literally ignored Martin Brundle's commentary on that exact incident about 20 seconds later into your clip:

https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=608

"He's just run him out of space, didn't turn the steering wheel"

Indeed I have, because physics. Both cars have the same angle of steering input but Hamilton goes clean into the side of him. He is sliding, less grip on the inside. Brundle miss called that one. Hamilton said this himself after the race and it’s clear if you watch carefully. It also happened to other cars behind.

Johnson wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

Johnson wrote:Hamilton didn't open the wheel. You need a re-watch...
https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=587
Clumsy, but he just understeers into him. Lap 1 in the damp.

Hilarious how you've somehow literally ignored Martin Brundle's commentary on that exact incident about 20 seconds later into your clip:

https://youtu.be/7AhxuAz6YcM?t=608

"He's just run him out of space, didn't turn the steering wheel"

Indeed I have, because physics. Both cars have the same angle of steering input but Hamilton goes clean into the side of him. He is sliding, less grip on the inside. Brundle miss called that one. Hamilton said this himself after the race and it’s clear if you watch carefully. It also happened to other cars behind.

Where can I see also Nico's steering input?

In the link, it shows onboards of both drivers. They both apply the same amount of lock. Rosberg himself is also understeering and sliding, but not as much.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:I only remember one pass when Hamilton got held up behind Leclerc and Verstappen got a run on him and passed him on the straight, was the other a SC restart with Verstappen on new tyres and Hamilton on old tyres?

Overtakes in F1 are not made in a vacuum.

Verstappen was significantly more aggressive and assertive in overtaking Leclerc than Hamilton was, who wasted too much time behind the Ferrari. If Verstappen does not dive down the inside at Junção, he is not in a position to overtake Hamilton the following straight, and then who knows how the rest of the race plays out?

All I recall is Hamilton's onboard and Leclerc weaving from side to side making it difficult for him to pass, did they not both pass Leclerc down the long straight?

In respect to Hamilton's fight unless he's gone soft in his older age he had to fight a lot harder to get were he is now than what Verstappen had to do, son of a F1 driver.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:I only remember one pass when Hamilton got held up behind Leclerc and Verstappen got a run on him and passed him on the straight, was the other a SC restart with Verstappen on new tyres and Hamilton on old tyres?

Overtakes in F1 are not made in a vacuum.

Verstappen was significantly more aggressive and assertive in overtaking Leclerc than Hamilton was, who wasted too much time behind the Ferrari. If Verstappen does not dive down the inside at Junção, he is not in a position to overtake Hamilton the following straight, and then who knows how the rest of the race plays out?

All I recall is Hamilton's onboard and Leclerc weaving from side to side making it difficult for him to pass, did they not both pass Leclerc down the long straight?

In respect to Hamilton's fight unless he's gone soft in his older age he had to fight a lot harder to get were he is now than what Verstappen had to do, son of a F1 driver.

It is really that simple.
The Mercedes has been the worst car under braking since forever.(Just look at the starts or restarts if you don't believe me)
Yes it is(was) fast on straights and can corner but under braking? That car has nothing on Ferrari and RedBull.
Tell me one notable last moment overtake of Hamilton or Rosberg under braking since 2013.

RedBull drivers seem to make magic happen when in combat. RIcciardo( who can not repeat the same in Renault), Verstappen, Albon. That car is agile and ridiculous under braking(chassis + downforce).

If WDC was not on the table, I would pick the RB for Hamilton every single day of the week as his car just to see vintage HAM who many think has died.