Rosberg reveals some truths

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mikeyg123
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:I only remember one pass when Hamilton got held up behind Leclerc and Verstappen got a run on him and passed him on the straight, was the other a SC restart with Verstappen on new tyres and Hamilton on old tyres?
Overtakes in F1 are not made in a vacuum.

Verstappen was significantly more aggressive and assertive in overtaking Leclerc than Hamilton was, who wasted too much time behind the Ferrari. If Verstappen does not dive down the inside at Junção, he is not in a position to overtake Hamilton the following straight, and then who knows how the rest of the race plays out?
All I recall is Hamilton's onboard and Leclerc weaving from side to side making it difficult for him to pass, did they not both pass Leclerc down the long straight?

In respect to Hamilton's fight unless he's gone soft in his older age he had to fight a lot harder to get were he is now than what Verstappen had to do, son of a F1 driver.
It is really that simple.
The Mercedes has been the worst car under braking since forever.(Just look at the starts or restarts if you don't believe me)
Yes it is(was) fast on straights and can corner but under braking? That car has nothing on Ferrari and RedBull.
Tell me one notable last moment overtake of Hamilton or Rosberg under braking since 2013.

RedBull drivers seem to make magic happen when in combat. RIcciardo( who can not repeat the same in Renault), Verstappen, Albon. That car is agile and ridiculous under braking(chassis + downforce).

If WDC was not on the table, I would pick the RB for Hamilton every single day of the week as his car just to see vintage HAM who many think has died.
He got Verstappen on the brakes in Hungary 2019 for the lead with three laps remaining. Pretty notable.

I think Hamilton's new cautious style is very much a choice and a damn good one. He's the best I've ever seen at balancing risk/reward and almost always making the right decision with a championship on the line. He won't make an overtake unless the pay off is worth the risk

Pullrod
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Pullrod »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:I only remember one pass when Hamilton got held up behind Leclerc and Verstappen got a run on him and passed him on the straight, was the other a SC restart with Verstappen on new tyres and Hamilton on old tyres?
Overtakes in F1 are not made in a vacuum.

Verstappen was significantly more aggressive and assertive in overtaking Leclerc than Hamilton was, who wasted too much time behind the Ferrari. If Verstappen does not dive down the inside at Junção, he is not in a position to overtake Hamilton the following straight, and then who knows how the rest of the race plays out?
All I recall is Hamilton's onboard and Leclerc weaving from side to side making it difficult for him to pass, did they not both pass Leclerc down the long straight?

In respect to Hamilton's fight unless he's gone soft in his older age he had to fight a lot harder to get were he is now than what Verstappen had to do, son of a F1 driver.
It is really that simple.
The Mercedes has been the worst car under braking since forever.(Just look at the starts or restarts if you don't believe me)
Yes it is(was) fast on straights and can corner but under braking? That car has nothing on Ferrari and RedBull.
Tell me one notable last moment overtake of Hamilton or Rosberg under braking since 2013.

RedBull drivers seem to make magic happen when in combat. RIcciardo( who can not repeat the same in Renault), Verstappen, Albon. That car is agile and ridiculous under braking(chassis + downforce).

If WDC was not on the table, I would pick the RB for Hamilton every single day of the week as his car just to see vintage HAM who many think has died.
He got Verstappen on the brakes in Hungary 2019 for the lead with three laps remaining. Pretty notable.

I think Hamilton's new cautious style is very much a choice and a damn good one. He's the best I've ever seen at balancing risk/reward and almost always making the right decision with a championship on the line. He won't make an overtake unless the pay off is worth the risk
Look, I have been saying this for a long time if you look at my post from 2016.
HAM has not produced one single overtake(throwing the car at the last moment on the inside) like those he used to do in McLaren.

HAM and ROS overshot the first corner in a massive way at the start in Mexico 2016 (HAM), Sochi 2014 (ROS), not to mention at Monza multiple times.
At the start or restart(after a SC period), the Mercedes drivers are more often than not not the last to apply the brakes.

HAM style since he is at Mercedes has been to pass people on the outside (ROS, VET, VER, RAI, etc...) where he can modulate better his braking and for a longer time. The last minute dive on the inside is a thing of the past and is just not easy to do with this Mercedes I suspect, not to mention this same Mercedes in turbulent air is simply terrible.
BOT lost the car in Germany last year trying to pass GAS. HAM could not complete his overtake in Brazil on ALB and failed to pass GAS in this same race.
In combat, it is not the BEST car.

mikeyg123
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote: Overtakes in F1 are not made in a vacuum.

Verstappen was significantly more aggressive and assertive in overtaking Leclerc than Hamilton was, who wasted too much time behind the Ferrari. If Verstappen does not dive down the inside at Junção, he is not in a position to overtake Hamilton the following straight, and then who knows how the rest of the race plays out?
All I recall is Hamilton's onboard and Leclerc weaving from side to side making it difficult for him to pass, did they not both pass Leclerc down the long straight?

In respect to Hamilton's fight unless he's gone soft in his older age he had to fight a lot harder to get were he is now than what Verstappen had to do, son of a F1 driver.
It is really that simple.
The Mercedes has been the worst car under braking since forever.(Just look at the starts or restarts if you don't believe me)
Yes it is(was) fast on straights and can corner but under braking? That car has nothing on Ferrari and RedBull.
Tell me one notable last moment overtake of Hamilton or Rosberg under braking since 2013.

RedBull drivers seem to make magic happen when in combat. RIcciardo( who can not repeat the same in Renault), Verstappen, Albon. That car is agile and ridiculous under braking(chassis + downforce).

If WDC was not on the table, I would pick the RB for Hamilton every single day of the week as his car just to see vintage HAM who many think has died.
He got Verstappen on the brakes in Hungary 2019 for the lead with three laps remaining. Pretty notable.

I think Hamilton's new cautious style is very much a choice and a damn good one. He's the best I've ever seen at balancing risk/reward and almost always making the right decision with a championship on the line. He won't make an overtake unless the pay off is worth the risk
Look, I have been saying this for a long time if you look at my post from 2016.
HAM has not produced one single overtake(throwing the car at the last moment on the inside) like those he used to do in McLaren.

HAM and ROS overshot the first corner in a massive way at the start in Mexico 2016 (HAM), Sochi 2014 (ROS), not to mention at Monza multiple times.
At the start or restart(after a SC period), the Mercedes drivers are more often than not not the last to apply the brakes.

HAM style since he is at Mercedes has been to pass people on the outside (ROS, VET, VER, RAI, etc...) where he can modulate better his braking and for a longer time. The last minute dive on the inside is a thing of the past and is just not easy to do with this Mercedes I suspect, not to mention this same Mercedes in turbulent air is simply terrible.
BOT lost the car in Germany last year trying to pass GAS. HAM could not complete his overtake in Brazil on ALB and failed to pass GAS in this same race.
In combat, it is not the BEST car.
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.

Pullrod
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Pullrod »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote: All I recall is Hamilton's onboard and Leclerc weaving from side to side making it difficult for him to pass, did they not both pass Leclerc down the long straight?

In respect to Hamilton's fight unless he's gone soft in his older age he had to fight a lot harder to get were he is now than what Verstappen had to do, son of a F1 driver.
It is really that simple.
The Mercedes has been the worst car under braking since forever.(Just look at the starts or restarts if you don't believe me)
Yes it is(was) fast on straights and can corner but under braking? That car has nothing on Ferrari and RedBull.
Tell me one notable last moment overtake of Hamilton or Rosberg under braking since 2013.

RedBull drivers seem to make magic happen when in combat. RIcciardo( who can not repeat the same in Renault), Verstappen, Albon. That car is agile and ridiculous under braking(chassis + downforce).

If WDC was not on the table, I would pick the RB for Hamilton every single day of the week as his car just to see vintage HAM who many think has died.
He got Verstappen on the brakes in Hungary 2019 for the lead with three laps remaining. Pretty notable.

I think Hamilton's new cautious style is very much a choice and a damn good one. He's the best I've ever seen at balancing risk/reward and almost always making the right decision with a championship on the line. He won't make an overtake unless the pay off is worth the risk
Look, I have been saying this for a long time if you look at my post from 2016.
HAM has not produced one single overtake(throwing the car at the last moment on the inside) like those he used to do in McLaren.

HAM and ROS overshot the first corner in a massive way at the start in Mexico 2016 (HAM), Sochi 2014 (ROS), not to mention at Monza multiple times.
At the start or restart(after a SC period), the Mercedes drivers are more often than not not the last to apply the brakes.

HAM style since he is at Mercedes has been to pass people on the outside (ROS, VET, VER, RAI, etc...) where he can modulate better his braking and for a longer time. The last minute dive on the inside is a thing of the past and is just not easy to do with this Mercedes I suspect, not to mention this same Mercedes in turbulent air is simply terrible.
BOT lost the car in Germany last year trying to pass GAS. HAM could not complete his overtake in Brazil on ALB and failed to pass GAS in this same race.
In combat, it is not the BEST car.
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.
Not all the cars behave the same under braking. Have you thought about it?

Even if HAM wanted, he could not brake like he used to do in McLaren. His braking ability has nothing to do with the WDC, and the thing Kingvoid identified as the "fear" he has against VER is simply him not doing his braking like he did when in McLaren(tyres could also be a factor).

Do you remember Daniel Ricciardo? How come he can not dive bomb anymore from Mars without embarassing himself?

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Flash2k11 »

KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Flash2k11 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.
Yeah, this is essentially what I was getting at in my earlier post; I know you hold Alonso in the highest regard, would you say Hamilton is now as well rounded (if not moreso?) than Alonso was in his prime right now? I think he might be.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
It is really that simple.
The Mercedes has been the worst car under braking since forever.(Just look at the starts or restarts if you don't believe me)
Yes it is(was) fast on straights and can corner but under braking? That car has nothing on Ferrari and RedBull.
Tell me one notable last moment overtake of Hamilton or Rosberg under braking since 2013.

RedBull drivers seem to make magic happen when in combat. RIcciardo( who can not repeat the same in Renault), Verstappen, Albon. That car is agile and ridiculous under braking(chassis + downforce).

If WDC was not on the table, I would pick the RB for Hamilton every single day of the week as his car just to see vintage HAM who many think has died.
He got Verstappen on the brakes in Hungary 2019 for the lead with three laps remaining. Pretty notable.

I think Hamilton's new cautious style is very much a choice and a damn good one. He's the best I've ever seen at balancing risk/reward and almost always making the right decision with a championship on the line. He won't make an overtake unless the pay off is worth the risk
Look, I have been saying this for a long time if you look at my post from 2016.
HAM has not produced one single overtake(throwing the car at the last moment on the inside) like those he used to do in McLaren.

HAM and ROS overshot the first corner in a massive way at the start in Mexico 2016 (HAM), Sochi 2014 (ROS), not to mention at Monza multiple times.
At the start or restart(after a SC period), the Mercedes drivers are more often than not not the last to apply the brakes.

HAM style since he is at Mercedes has been to pass people on the outside (ROS, VET, VER, RAI, etc...) where he can modulate better his braking and for a longer time. The last minute dive on the inside is a thing of the past and is just not easy to do with this Mercedes I suspect, not to mention this same Mercedes in turbulent air is simply terrible.
BOT lost the car in Germany last year trying to pass GAS. HAM could not complete his overtake in Brazil on ALB and failed to pass GAS in this same race.
In combat, it is not the BEST car.
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.
Not all the cars behave the same under braking. Have you thought about it?

Even if HAM wanted, he could not brake like he used to do in McLaren. His braking ability has nothing to do with the WDC, and the thing Kingvoid identified as the "fear" he has against VER is simply him not doing his braking like he did when in McLaren(tyres could also be a factor).

Do you remember Daniel Ricciardo? How come he can not dive bomb anymore from Mars without embarassing himself?
Thought about it, acknowledged it ultimately in this case discounted it as the reason for Hamilton's change of attitude.

He's a different driver now. He's become the ultimate championship driver and is smart enough not to go for moves like that. If Merc aren't in contention for the championships this season I bet we would see a return to Hamilton going for high risk moves again as it's worth risking everything to try and get the win.

I don't think he's scared of Verstappen. I just think he has a bigger objective.

This is the same reason I don't like Verstappen getting criticised for high risk overtakes. For him it's worth risking a crash in the hope of a win. For Hamilton it isn't.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by mikeyg123 »

Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.
Yeah, this is essentially what I was getting at in my earlier post; I know you hold Alonso in the highest regard, would you say Hamilton is now as well rounded (if not moreso?) than Alonso was in his prime right now? I think he might be.
I think over the last two seasons he's probably been as good as Alonso was in his prime yes.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Flash2k11 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.
Yeah, this is essentially what I was getting at in my earlier post; I know you hold Alonso in the highest regard, would you say Hamilton is now as well rounded (if not moreso?) than Alonso was in his prime right now? I think he might be.
I think over the last two seasons he's probably been as good as Alonso was in his prime yes.
High praise indeed lol. I have them ascloseasthat but I think Lewis has the higher ceiling on ultimate lap time, wheras I still have Alonso as the king of absolutely relentless race pace, although Hamilton is probably just about there on that front too.

:twisted: Get the pair of them in that bloody Merc and lets have 2007 all over again with no real interference from the other teams.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by mikeyg123 »

Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.
Yeah, this is essentially what I was getting at in my earlier post; I know you hold Alonso in the highest regard, would you say Hamilton is now as well rounded (if not moreso?) than Alonso was in his prime right now? I think he might be.
I think over the last two seasons he's probably been as good as Alonso was in his prime yes.
High praise indeed lol. I have them ascloseasthat but I think Lewis has the higher ceiling on ultimate lap time, wheras I still have Alonso as the king of absolutely relentless race pace, although Hamilton is probably just about there on that front too.

:twisted: Get the pair of them in that bloody Merc and lets have 2007 all over again with no real interference from the other teams.
To elaborate if we take 2012 as Alonso at his best and 2019 as Hamilton at his then I do think Alonso had to do more in 2012 to finish where he did in the WDC. In that way I consider that more impressive. However, it is not Hamilton's fault he has had things somewhat easier and I've not seen anything from him to suggest he could not pull off a season like Alonso did 2012 if a similar situation fell for him.

I agree Hamilton probably has a slightly more single lap pace and is better in the wet. Alonso is better at turning round a situation that isn't going his way.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Flash2k11 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No he doesn't do that anymore but I don't think that's the car I think it's a choice from Hamilton. He races for WDC. He has learnt that throwing the car down the inside an hoping for the best as he did in his Mclaren days is not the best way to achieve the overall goal of winning the championship.

Essentially he doesn't make moves like that anymore because he's a much better driver now.
Yeah, this is essentially what I was getting at in my earlier post; I know you hold Alonso in the highest regard, would you say Hamilton is now as well rounded (if not moreso?) than Alonso was in his prime right now? I think he might be.
I think over the last two seasons he's probably been as good as Alonso was in his prime yes.
High praise indeed lol. I have them ascloseasthat but I think Lewis has the higher ceiling on ultimate lap time, wheras I still have Alonso as the king of absolutely relentless race pace, although Hamilton is probably just about there on that front too.

:twisted: Get the pair of them in that bloody Merc and lets have 2007 all over again with no real interference from the other teams.
To elaborate if we take 2012 as Alonso at his best and 2019 as Hamilton at his then I do think Alonso had to do more in 2012 to finish where he did in the WDC. In that way I consider that more impressive. However, it is not Hamilton's fault he has had things somewhat easier and I've not seen anything from him to suggest he could not pull off a season like Alonso did 2012 if a similar situation fell for him.

I agree Hamilton probably has a slightly more single lap pace and is better in the wet. Alonso is better at turning round a situation that isn't going his way.
Yeah, i'm in agreement. I think Lewis' final hurdle is turning around those days where you can literally hear how despondant he is when the entire deck is stacked against him and he barely has a chance of making the points..... he of all people should know that a solitary point, even if you've had to put the best drive of your career in to come in 10th, could potentially make the difference.

That I consider that his one chink in the current armour.....
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.
I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.
Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.
And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.
I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.
Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.
And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
Like I said Roberg didn't chose a line he just reacted to what Hamilton did, maybe you should be a F1 driver that you could have done better to not having to take to the grass to avoid hitting Rosberg's car, reacting at the last second to a fast closing car often ends in tears ask Ricciardo and Verstappen at Baku.

In Austria Hamilton was at the outside edge of track and was half a car in front of Rosberg, rules state he had a right to stay on the track, rules say that Rosberg had no right to punt him off, Rosberg got penalised.
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.
I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.
Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.
And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
Like I said Roberg didn't chose a line he just reacted to what Hamilton did, maybe you should be a F1 driver that you could have done better to not having to take to the grass to avoid hitting Rosberg's car, reacting at the last second to a fast closing car often ends in tears ask Ricciardo and Verstappen at Baku.

In Austria Hamilton was at the outside edge of track and was half a car in front of Rosberg, rules state he had a right to stay on the track, rules say that Rosberg had no right to punt him off, Rosberg got penalised.
How can you compare Ver vs Ricciardo to Rosberg vs Hamilton? Verstappen made two defensive moves, Rosberg made one. A similar example would be Vettel and Verstappen in Silverstone if you were to pick one. Did you blame Vettel or Verstappen for that one?
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote: I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.
Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.
And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
Like I said Roberg didn't chose a line he just reacted to what Hamilton did, maybe you should be a F1 driver that you could have done better to not having to take to the grass to avoid hitting Rosberg's car, reacting at the last second to a fast closing car often ends in tears ask Ricciardo and Verstappen at Baku.

In Austria Hamilton was at the outside edge of track and was half a car in front of Rosberg, rules state he had a right to stay on the track, rules say that Rosberg had no right to punt him off, Rosberg got penalised.
How can you compare Ver vs Ricciardo to Rosberg vs Hamilton? Verstappen made two defensive moves, Rosberg made one. A similar example would be Vettel and Verstappen in Silverstone if you were to pick one. Did you blame Vettel or Verstappen for that one?
We're talking about late defensive moves on a fast straight when the driver behind has too little time to react, personally I have little sympathy for what happened to Verstappen with his late defensive move going into a corner against Vettel.


Anyway we're so far apart in our opinions that we're simply going around in circles, let's not forget the thread is discussing what Rosberg himself has said, in respect to his wheel to wheel battles with Hamilton he admitted at times he overstepped the mark whilst Hamilton was always able to keep things on the right side of not going too far so you're kind of disagreeing with Rosberg as well.

Maybe you didn't watch the podcast?
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.
And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
Like I said Roberg didn't chose a line he just reacted to what Hamilton did, maybe you should be a F1 driver that you could have done better to not having to take to the grass to avoid hitting Rosberg's car, reacting at the last second to a fast closing car often ends in tears ask Ricciardo and Verstappen at Baku.

In Austria Hamilton was at the outside edge of track and was half a car in front of Rosberg, rules state he had a right to stay on the track, rules say that Rosberg had no right to punt him off, Rosberg got penalised.
How can you compare Ver vs Ricciardo to Rosberg vs Hamilton? Verstappen made two defensive moves, Rosberg made one. A similar example would be Vettel and Verstappen in Silverstone if you were to pick one. Did you blame Vettel or Verstappen for that one?
We're talking about late defensive moves on a fast straight when the driver behind has too little time to react, personally I have little sympathy for what happened to Verstappen with his late defensive move going into a corner against Vettel.


Anyway we're so far apart in our opinions that we're simply going around in circles, let's not forget the thread is discussing what Rosberg himself has said, in respect to his wheel to wheel battles with Hamilton he admitted at times he overstepped the mark whilst Hamilton was always able to keep things on the right side of not going too far so you're kind of disagreeing with Rosberg as well.

Maybe you didn't watch the podcast?
My first post on this topic was on how I believe the penalty system is flawed in F1. Rosberg lamented the grey area Hamilton could so easily find in their battles, and perhaps maybe he too would like to see a slight change to what is deemed right and wrong. As Leclerc said this year, since penalties are not being dished out for very aggressive behaviour, he too will drive aggressively since it's allowed. Rosberg may have been of the same sentiment five years ago.
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Johnson »

Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Johnson »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.
I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.
Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.
And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
Austria: There was space on the inside, if Hamilton braked earlier. I actually laughed out loud to that.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Flash2k11 »

Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.
Genuinely have no idea what Bottas blowing an engine up has to do with Hamilton in 2008?
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pokerman
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote: And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
Like I said Roberg didn't chose a line he just reacted to what Hamilton did, maybe you should be a F1 driver that you could have done better to not having to take to the grass to avoid hitting Rosberg's car, reacting at the last second to a fast closing car often ends in tears ask Ricciardo and Verstappen at Baku.

In Austria Hamilton was at the outside edge of track and was half a car in front of Rosberg, rules state he had a right to stay on the track, rules say that Rosberg had no right to punt him off, Rosberg got penalised.
How can you compare Ver vs Ricciardo to Rosberg vs Hamilton? Verstappen made two defensive moves, Rosberg made one. A similar example would be Vettel and Verstappen in Silverstone if you were to pick one. Did you blame Vettel or Verstappen for that one?
We're talking about late defensive moves on a fast straight when the driver behind has too little time to react, personally I have little sympathy for what happened to Verstappen with his late defensive move going into a corner against Vettel.


Anyway we're so far apart in our opinions that we're simply going around in circles, let's not forget the thread is discussing what Rosberg himself has said, in respect to his wheel to wheel battles with Hamilton he admitted at times he overstepped the mark whilst Hamilton was always able to keep things on the right side of not going too far so you're kind of disagreeing with Rosberg as well.

Maybe you didn't watch the podcast?
My first post on this topic was on how I believe the penalty system is flawed in F1. Rosberg lamented the grey area Hamilton could so easily find in their battles, and perhaps maybe he too would like to see a slight change to what is deemed right and wrong. As Leclerc said this year, since penalties are not being dished out for very aggressive behaviour, he too will drive aggressively since it's allowed. Rosberg may have been of the same sentiment five years ago.
I would have to watch it again but even then that has little to do with you looking to lay blame on Hamilton on the major crashes between himself and Rosberg, that is solely your opinion and it doesn't seem to be Rosberg's opinion when he admits that at times he overstepped the mark.
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.
I mean going onto the grass, where the next corner is a right hander, would not be avoiding an incident in my book. Avoiding would have been, taking the outside line that Rosberg was clearly not defending, or lifting the throttle pedal.

In Austria, Hamilton did not have to turn in at some point while Rosberg was still there. We can argue whether Rosberg was largely at fault, but if the defending driver overcooks a corner, that does not give the right to the attacking driver in turning in on him. Normally, the attacking driver would look to switch back on Rosberg getting better traction to power out of the corner. Hamilton overshot the corner a bit himself, which may have lost his opportunity in doing so.

And I don't know how one can say Rosberg caused contact at Austin 2015 and that Hamilton did not in Austria. That's not even considering that the contact at Austria was with much more aggressive steering input.

Edit: And I would also add that there were many other incidents like this we haven't accounted for, and are hard to remember considering how long ago it now was. Take a look at the opening lap of Canada 2016 for example where Rosberg was pushed wide mid-corner. This 'grey area' tactic was consistent in their years of battling for championships.
Rosberg was driving in the middle of track he wasn't defending either the inside or outside line, what he was doing was looking in his mirrors to see which way Hamilton was going to go and then he was going to go the same way, let's not forget that Rosberg had no electrical power, he was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck and the best way to defend his position was to have Hamilton off the track.

So in Austria Rosberg just over cooked the corner, strange has I didn't see him lock his tyres also Hamilton didn't overshoot the corner he merely was giving Rosberg racing room but Rosberg wanted all the track he was 20M away from the apex of the corner.

Who said that Hamilton didn't hit Rosberg in Austin, the contact was front wheel to front wheel, in Austria the contact was Rosberg's front wing to Hamilton's sidepod, Hamilton was at least half a car in front of Rosberg's car, Hamilton had earnt the right to the corner and what Rosberg did was basically a ramming for which he got penalised.
And for exactly that reason should you know that Rosberg was choosing to defend the inside line. Coming out of the long right-hander, the racing line is on the left side. It was inevitable Rosberg was going to cover the inside. Hamilton decided to carry on and go for a gap that was closing.

Austria: If Hamilton gave Rosberg racing room, he wouldn't have turned in on him. There was still space on the outside, and there was space on the inside if Hamilton had braked earlier. Even discounting this, I haven't even heard of a rule in the book stating that one had to take the apex going into a corner.
Austria: There was space on the inside, if Hamilton braked earlier. I actually laughed out loud to that.
Yeah I actually wondered about the dynamics of that and how much it would disobey the laws of physics? :)
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Johnson »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.
Genuinely have no idea what Bottas blowing an engine up has to do with Hamilton in 2008?
My bad sorry.

I meant using the 2nd drivers to see how good a car is. I.e. Raikkonen vs Kovalainen for 2008. Its not a good way to measure car performance, unless there is some proof that the number 2's are of a relatively equal standard. The same as Albon dropped in mid season and clearly a number 2 vs Bottas, at his peak, at home and Mercedes and given every opportunity to win races/championships.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Flash2k11 »

Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.
Genuinely have no idea what Bottas blowing an engine up has to do with Hamilton in 2008?
My bad sorry.

I meant using the 2nd drivers to see how good a car is. I.e. Raikkonen vs Kovalainen for 2008. Its not a good way to measure car performance, unless there is some proof that the number 2's are of a relatively equal standard. The same as Albon dropped in mid season and clearly a number 2 vs Bottas, at his peak, at home and Mercedes and given every opportunity to win races/championships.
Ah, that makes sense.
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.
Kovalainen had a lot of bad luck in 2008 (Spain, Monaco, Japan, China) without which he would have finished on around 70-75 points. Meanwhile Hamilton was the only driver on the grid who enjoyed bulletproof unreliability.

Despite that, it’s generally accepted that Hamilton won the 2008 title with an inferior car.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:Despite that, it’s generally accepted that Hamilton won the 2008 title with an inferior car.
Are you saying he didn't?

Considering what we now know about the speed difference between Hamilton and Massa, it's pretty hard to see any other conclusion.
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by KingVoid »

Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Despite that, it’s generally accepted that Hamilton won the 2008 title with an inferior car.
Are you saying he didn't?

Considering what we now know about the speed difference between Hamilton and Massa, it's pretty hard to see any other conclusion.
I agree that Ferrari had the best car in 2008. My point was that Kovalainen was not as bad as the points suggest in 2008.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.
Kovalainen had a lot of bad luck in 2008 (Spain, Monaco, Japan, China) without which he would have finished on around 70-75 points. Meanwhile Hamilton was the only driver on the grid who enjoyed bulletproof unreliability.

Despite that, it’s generally accepted that Hamilton won the 2008 title with an inferior car.
What about Kimi's bad luck? He had more DNF's than Heikki. 5 vs 4.

Heikki was nowhere near Raikkonen all year, 9 podiums vs 3 for Heikki.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by JN23 »

Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.
Kovalainen had a lot of bad luck in 2008 (Spain, Monaco, Japan, China) without which he would have finished on around 70-75 points. Meanwhile Hamilton was the only driver on the grid who enjoyed bulletproof unreliability.

Despite that, it’s generally accepted that Hamilton won the 2008 title with an inferior car.
What about Kimi's bad luck? He had more DNF's than Heikki. 5 vs 4.

Heikki was nowhere near Raikkonen all year, 9 podiums vs 3 for Heikki.
If by DNFs you’re counting races when Räikkönen didn’t score, then he crashed out in Spa and Singapore and just finished out the points in Monza.

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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:As for the second drivers, Bottas was quicker than Albon in the race and ahead until his engine expired.
Not massively relevant, but i'm pretty sure Mercedes let Bottas run his engine in a high mode until it finally blew up just to see how far they could push their luck with it (probably very valuable data really), and that could potentially explain some of the gap. Im also of the opinion that Bottas is plain faster than Albon right now too.
Never seen anyone use that logic before, if you apply that to 2008, then Hamilton pulled a miracle in the Mclaren.
Kovalainen had a lot of bad luck in 2008 (Spain, Monaco, Japan, China) without which he would have finished on around 70-75 points. Meanwhile Hamilton was the only driver on the grid who enjoyed bulletproof unreliability.

Despite that, it’s generally accepted that Hamilton won the 2008 title with an inferior car.
What about Kimi's bad luck? He had more DNF's than Heikki. 5 vs 4.

Heikki was nowhere near Raikkonen all year, 9 podiums vs 3 for Heikki.
2008 was a weird season. Everyone made lots of mistakes.

Raikkonen specifically got taken out by Hamilton in Canada, had to drop behind Massa in France and had a failure in Italy. It was hardly a year of huge bad luck.

Teddy007
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by Teddy007 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Rosberg does literally say "I took him out" but it's kind of a jokey comment.

Personally I've always felt that crash was largely Rosberg's fault.

At the time I commented that whilst neither had behaved perfectly the worst stuff always came from Rosberg. And yes, that would get you called a fan boy on here at the time but Nico has said basically as much on numerous occasions.

It's sad that they started as friends but it ended up being the most toxic teammate pairing ever.
Agreed. If the driver had done nothing wrong, he'd defend it to the day he dies. We all know it. At the time both drivers will be fully emotional and unwilling to bend and break. Then they would have been forced to analyse it with the team/boss. Both drivers made mistakes against each other but yes this one was quite clearly much more Rosberg.

Nico is now out of F1, he achieved his dream and now gets to relax and not even think about what he says. He doesn't answer to anyone.

F1 Racer
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Re: Rosberg reveals some truths

Post by F1 Racer »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:Just quickly watched his view on the Hamilton incident. As you can see, he jokes about Hamilton pushing him off the road on T1 at Austin. This is the dominant feature of the Hamilton vs Rosberg era. Rosberg outlines after, that Hamilton could always find that 'grey' area between getting a penalty and not getting a penalty, which he mentions is a very difficult thing to do. I believe, because Hamilton repeatedly pushed Rosberg off the track in their wheel-to-wheel battles, Rosberg wanted to reciprocate this. However, unlike Rosberg, Hamilton doesn't back out when a gap is closing. The incidents (Spain, Belgium) in which Rosberg becomes a bit more aggressive also happened to have much worse consequences.

This has been something I've talked about a decent amount and maybe a couple of forumers here know me for it. The idea behind 'let them race' is counterintuitive. If we don't penalise drivers for pushing the other off the track, it disincentivises the drivers on the outside line from engaging in wheel to wheel driving. This is becoming more and more of a problem as we move towards tarmac runoffs.
There is no real grey area though, just pure inconsistent interpretation of the rules when it comes to forcing other drivers off the track.

Japan 2015 and Germany 2016 are identical incidents in my view, but Rosberg got a penalty and Hamilton did not. This was not down to Hamilton using skill to exploit some kind of legitimate grey area, it was just weak stewarding that perpetuates through to today.

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