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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:28 pm 
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These being pertinent to me because it backs up some things I said or brought up on here, one is the toilet incident with Schumacher as part of the games he played against Rosberg, Irvine's version was that Rosberg was forced to pee in a bucket, maybe Rosberg didn't want to admit that part of it?

One Ferrari fan said it was mere hating on Schumacher and with it being a second hand story has to be seen as not being true.

The second one is the collision with Hamilton in Barcelona 2016, I got a bit panned on here as a Hamilton fan boy for saying it was Rosberg's fault, now Rosberg admits he crashed Hamilton out, evidence against Hamilton was that Wolff or even more so Lauda blamed Hamilton for the crash, no wonder Hamilton, realising the truth of the matter, threatened to quit the team.

The Schumacher incident starts at 5:25, Hamilton crash starts at 9:25.

Rosbergs admits that Hamilton managed to keep things just on the right side of fair whilst he overstepped the mark putting it down to Hamilton having better racecraft which we've said ourselves on here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euG5Ml_IiA8

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 3:50 pm 
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I’ve never heard the toilet story before!

I’m not sure that Rosberg has admitted that he took Hamilton out in Spain 2016 though?


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:00 pm 
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Rosberg does literally say "I took him out" but it's kind of a jokey comment.

Personally I've always felt that crash was largely Rosberg's fault.

At the time I commented that whilst neither had behaved perfectly the worst stuff always came from Rosberg. And yes, that would get you called a fan boy on here at the time but Nico has said basically as much on numerous occasions.

It's sad that they started as friends but it ended up being the most toxic teammate pairing ever.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:00 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
I’ve never heard the toilet story before!

I’m not sure that Rosberg has admitted that he took Hamilton out in Spain 2016 though?



Hmm, he pretty much does.

"There I got him back you see, I drove him off the road"

Paraphrasing a little there, and I think it was in a bit of a jokey manner.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:36 pm 
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Herb wrote:
JN23 wrote:
I’ve never heard the toilet story before!

I’m not sure that Rosberg has admitted that he took Hamilton out in Spain 2016 though?



Hmm, he pretty much does.

"There I got him back you see, I drove him off the road"

Paraphrasing a little there, and I think it was in a bit of a jokey manner.


Yeah, that's how it came across to me as well. He pushed me off here, hahaha, I got him there. Not 100% sure if he is admitting guilt or not


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:39 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Herb wrote:
JN23 wrote:
I’ve never heard the toilet story before!

I’m not sure that Rosberg has admitted that he took Hamilton out in Spain 2016 though?



Hmm, he pretty much does.

"There I got him back you see, I drove him off the road"

Paraphrasing a little there, and I think it was in a bit of a jokey manner.


Yeah, that's how it came across to me as well. He pushed me off here, hahaha, I got him there. Not 100% sure if he is admitting guilt or not


Yeah I think because it was in a jokey manner, it’s hard to tell whether he was admitting it or not.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:40 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Herb wrote:
JN23 wrote:
I’ve never heard the toilet story before!

I’m not sure that Rosberg has admitted that he took Hamilton out in Spain 2016 though?



Hmm, he pretty much does.

"There I got him back you see, I drove him off the road"

Paraphrasing a little there, and I think it was in a bit of a jokey manner.


Yeah, that's how it came across to me as well. He pushed me off here, hahaha, I got him there. Not 100% sure if he is admitting guilt or not


Many a true word is spoken in jest.....

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Just quickly watched his view on the Hamilton incident. As you can see, he jokes about Hamilton pushing him off the road on T1 at Austin. This is the dominant feature of the Hamilton vs Rosberg era. Rosberg outlines after, that Hamilton could always find that 'grey' area between getting a penalty and not getting a penalty, which he mentions is a very difficult thing to do. I believe, because Hamilton repeatedly pushed Rosberg off the track in their wheel-to-wheel battles, Rosberg wanted to reciprocate this. However, unlike Rosberg, Hamilton doesn't back out when a gap is closing. The incidents (Spain, Belgium) in which Rosberg becomes a bit more aggressive also happened to have much worse consequences.

This has been something I've talked about a decent amount and maybe a couple of forumers here know me for it. The idea behind 'let them race' is counterintuitive. If we don't penalise drivers for pushing the other off the track, it disincentivises the drivers on the outside line from engaging in wheel to wheel driving. This is becoming more and more of a problem as we move towards tarmac runoffs.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rosberg does literally say "I took him out" but it's kind of a jokey comment.

Personally I've always felt that crash was largely Rosberg's fault.

At the time I commented that whilst neither had behaved perfectly the worst stuff always came from Rosberg. And yes, that would get you called a fan boy on here at the time but Nico has said basically as much on numerous occasions.

It's sad that they started as friends but it ended up being the most toxic teammate pairing ever.

I agree, I've never really understood the arguments that pinned that Barcelona crash on Hamilton.

Nico put it quite well in that interview that Lewis is very good at placing his car in that grey area where a crash is never 100% his fault. Or another way of looking at it, he generally won't initiate contact (the clip from turn 1 in Austin in the video is an exception) but nor will he be inclined to avoid it if a rival tries to bully him off the road. Nico on the other hand was often a bit clumsy in his attempts to "race hard".


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:57 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Herb wrote:
JN23 wrote:
I’ve never heard the toilet story before!

I’m not sure that Rosberg has admitted that he took Hamilton out in Spain 2016 though?



Hmm, he pretty much does.

"There I got him back you see, I drove him off the road"

Paraphrasing a little there, and I think it was in a bit of a jokey manner.


Yeah, that's how it came across to me as well. He pushed me off here, hahaha, I got him there. Not 100% sure if he is admitting guilt or not


Many a true word is spoken in jest.....


That's true, but it doesn't mean this was such a case


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:08 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

That's true, but it doesn't mean this was such a case


It doesn't translate well, but I was being as facetious as Roberg was with that comment. I think he knows that even alluding to that being the case was going to cause controversy (and the more cynical among us may see the additional clicks for his channel if ends up doing a video expanding on those comments).

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:25 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

That's true, but it doesn't mean this was such a case


It doesn't translate well, but I was being as facetious as Roberg was with that comment. I think he knows that even alluding to that being the case was going to cause controversy (and the more cynical among us may see the additional clicks for his channel if ends up doing a video expanding on those comments).


I know, I got your tone. I was just trying to be clear on what I meant!


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:39 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Just quickly watched his view on the Hamilton incident. As you can see, he jokes about Hamilton pushing him off the road on T1 at Austin. This is the dominant feature of the Hamilton vs Rosberg era. Rosberg outlines after, that Hamilton could always find that 'grey' area between getting a penalty and not getting a penalty, which he mentions is a very difficult thing to do. I believe, because Hamilton repeatedly pushed Rosberg off the track in their wheel-to-wheel battles, Rosberg wanted to reciprocate this. However, unlike Rosberg, Hamilton doesn't back out when a gap is closing. The incidents (Spain, Belgium) in which Rosberg becomes a bit more aggressive also happened to have much worse consequences.

This has been something I've talked about a decent amount and maybe a couple of forumers here know me for it. The idea behind 'let them race' is counterintuitive. If we don't penalise drivers for pushing the other off the track, it disincentivises the drivers on the outside line from engaging in wheel to wheel driving. This is becoming more and more of a problem as we move towards tarmac runoffs.


That is simply untrue, very rarely or ever did Hamilton close a gap on Rosberg. If he took a liberty it was was on corner exit and pushed him onto paved run off.

Rosberg was the one that wouldn’t back down, Spain, Spa and Austria. All Rosberg going over board. All result in lost places, lost wins and car damage.

The times when Hamilton pushed the limits - Bahrain 14, Hungary 14, Austin 15, Japan 15, they 1-2 three of those races without any damage in any incident or even a loss of a single place for either car.

Hamilton was just vastly superior in wheel to wheel combat and knew how to position his car in a safe way and minimise the risk. Barcelona was a joke, Rosberg defended a car that was going over 20 mph faster. Try weaving in front of a car on the motorway that’s going 90mph when you are going 70mph, it’s a huge speed differential.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:41 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Just quickly watched his view on the Hamilton incident. As you can see, he jokes about Hamilton pushing him off the road on T1 at Austin. This is the dominant feature of the Hamilton vs Rosberg era. Rosberg outlines after, that Hamilton could always find that 'grey' area between getting a penalty and not getting a penalty, which he mentions is a very difficult thing to do. I believe, because Hamilton repeatedly pushed Rosberg off the track in their wheel-to-wheel battles, Rosberg wanted to reciprocate this. However, unlike Rosberg, Hamilton doesn't back out when a gap is closing. The incidents (Spain, Belgium) in which Rosberg becomes a bit more aggressive also happened to have much worse consequences.

This has been something I've talked about a decent amount and maybe a couple of forumers here know me for it. The idea behind 'let them race' is counterintuitive. If we don't penalise drivers for pushing the other off the track, it disincentivises the drivers on the outside line from engaging in wheel to wheel driving. This is becoming more and more of a problem as we move towards tarmac runoffs.


That is simply untrue, very rarely or ever did Hamilton close a gap on Rosberg. If he took a liberty it was was on corner exit and pushed him onto paved run off.

Rosberg was the one that wouldn’t back down, Spain, Spa and Austria. All Rosberg going over board. All result in lost places, lost wins and car damage.

The times when Hamilton pushed the limits - Bahrain 14, Hungary 14, Austin 15, Japan 15, they 1-2 three of those races without any damage in any incident or even a loss of a single place for either car.

Hamilton was just vastly superior in wheel to wheel combat and knew how to position his car in a safe way and minimise the risk. Barcelona was a joke, Rosberg defended a car that was going over 20 mph faster. Try weaving in front of a car on the motorway that’s going 90mph when you are going 70mph, it’s a huge speed differential.


He took a 'liberty' on corner exit, and sometimes mid-corner yes. That is closing a gap.

I agree, as I said, the times in which Rosberg chose to be more aggressive, it had negative consequences. In Belgium, I would agree the blame is on his side. In Spain, it is up for debate. But who is at fault or not in this incident is not the issue I'm addressing.

If Rosberg did not yield in the incidents you've mentioned above, and in other similar incidents, maybe we would have seen outcomes as bad as Belgium or Spain. Rosberg did yield however, because he had to avoid a collision. In Spain, Rosberg chose to be so aggressive because of his experience of being pushed off the track by Hamilton. And in this case, Hamilton did not yield, and therefore did not avoid the collision. Regardless of who was at fault or not, in their battles, for the vast majority of times, it was Rosberg who had to yield to avoid a collision.

And I would save the motorway comparisons. These are highly skilled drivers, driving cars with extreme amounts of downforce (apart from when they run directly behind another car).

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:49 pm 
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Rosberg did not yield in most of those incidents except Bahrain. That is my point. In Japan, Austin, Hungary he did not yield and they either made contact (wheel to wheel) or Rosberg had no option but to crash ... an option not available to Hamilton when they did crash.

Hamilton didn’t have those options at Spa, Nico drove into him. Spain, Hamilton did completely avoid him but it was grass.. lucky for Hamilton / unlucky for Rosberg, Hamilton collected him in the resulting spin. But Hamilton actually completely takes to the grass to avoid an accident. Austria, Hamilton had to turn in at some point.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:07 pm 
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Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:11 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:02 pm 
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You can’t call it dirty when they are driving to the rules as they called come race day. The drivers with the best race craft will adapt, and they will draw the line based on what is deemed acceptable to the marshals. We even saw that with comments from LeClerc on how he would approach certain scenarios, although I strongly hope that is put to rest in future races (assuming we have some) and they continue to penalize when a driver is forced of the road in a braking area.

The best drivers will generally do their best to avoid contact where they would be deemed at fault, and hold their line where they are not. And the absolute best will also weigh up whether they are up against a rival in the championship and feel it is worth the risk.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:19 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If he isn't overstepping the mark is it dirty? Hamilton pushed Rosberg off on corner exit a fair few times but everyone does that and it never gets punished so it must be permitted.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:04 pm 
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Austin 2015 was not on corner exit. He opened up his steering wheel mid-corner to bump wheels with Rosberg and shunt him wide. That was deliberate, calculated and dirty. That said, it wasn’t illegal (more in the grey area). As Rosberg said, Hamilton is very good at driving in the grey area without going completely over the limit of what is acceptable. Rosberg did not have the same feel, and that is why when Nico tried to be aggressive he often overstepped the mark entirely.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 1:37 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.


TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 7:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 7:50 am 
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.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13299&hilit=official+barcelona+2016+thread

.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 7:56 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.


What examples of Hamilton vs Verstappen would you use to support that opinion?


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 10:21 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


Hamilton never intentionally crashed into Rosberg, that puts Rosberg on a different level. Hamilton also never parked his car like Monaco 14. Rosberg was clearly dirtier. There is hard racing and then there is cheating and outright unfair play. Hamilton only ever raced hard.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 10:26 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.


TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.


That isn’t really true because Rosberg only attempted to overtake Hamilton once over all of 2015 and 2016 and it was clean pass at Austin... So how can you say Hamilton would rather crash that let him by?


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 10:29 am 
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Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.


TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.


That isn’t really true because Rosberg only attempted to overtake Hamilton once over all of 2015 and 2016 and it was clean pass at Austin... So how can you say Hamilton would rather crash that let him by?


Even at the start? I think I remember Hamilton pushing Rosberg off at turn 1 at some point but I could be wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 10:39 am 
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JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.


What examples of Hamilton vs Verstappen would you use to support that opinion?

Austin 2018. Verstappen was on very old and dead tyres. Hamilton was on much newer tyres and also had an innately faster car. Hamilton drove off the track when going wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen in the closing stages of the race. Hamilton himself later admitted that he races Verstappen differently to other drivers. Straight from the horse’s mouth.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 11:03 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:

If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.


What examples of Hamilton vs Verstappen would you use to support that opinion?

Austin 2018. Verstappen was on very old and dead tyres. Hamilton was on much newer tyres and also had an innately faster car. Hamilton drove off the track when going wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen in the closing stages of the race. Hamilton himself later admitted that he races Verstappen differently to other drivers. Straight from the horse’s mouth.


Is that because Hamilton was wary of Verstappen’s reputation (At that point) of not having the best race craft and being a bit crash happy though? Remember that was the same season where Verstappen had all those incidents early on.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 11:04 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:

If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.


TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.


That isn’t really true because Rosberg only attempted to overtake Hamilton once over all of 2015 and 2016 and it was clean pass at Austin... So how can you say Hamilton would rather crash that let him by?


Even at the start? I think I remember Hamilton pushing Rosberg off at turn 1 at some point but I could be wrong.


Canada 2016 I think you’re thinking of.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:03 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.


What examples of Hamilton vs Verstappen would you use to support that opinion?

Austin 2018. Verstappen was on very old and dead tyres. Hamilton was on much newer tyres and also had an innately faster car. Hamilton drove off the track when going wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen in the closing stages of the race. Hamilton himself later admitted that he races Verstappen differently to other drivers. Straight from the horse’s mouth.[/quote]

So one example and was that when Hamilton was racing for the title and Verstappen has nothing to lose? That's the problem your comparing one young driver who hasn't really given a dam about crashing the last few years against a older more experienced driver who is looking to win the title.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.


TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.

Well there's been 3 crashes, Spa, Spain and Austria, Rosberg got the blame for Austria and Spa, the one in the air was Barcelona hence the point of the thread, I read it as an admission of guilt.

Verstappen has got better like you say he's less likely to run someone off on the straight and that's how Hamilton passed Verstappen in Hungary with the help of DRS. However such dissapointment in the pass and the condemnation of DRS, I think most people appreciated it might have been popcorn time if the pass had to be decided in the corner.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:11 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was no less dirty than Rosberg. The difference between them was innate ability and racecraft. Hamilton knew how to be dirty without overstepping the mark too much and costing his team serious points (Austin 2015). Rosberg did not have the same level of racecraft and hence, when Rosberg tried to be dirty, it often came across as clumsy (Barcelona and Austria 2016).

This is one of the main reasons why I really want Red Bull to create a car that is a match for Mercedes. I believe that Verstappen is the only driver on the grid who knows how to bully Hamilton at wheel to wheel combat.


If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.

The difference between Rosberg and Verstappen is that Rosberg lost almost all of his direct on-track duels against Hamilton. Bahrain 2014 was a textbook example of this. Rosberg simply got schooled. Hamilton’s racecraft was a level above and it showed.

On the other hand, any time Hamilton comes up against Verstappen in wheel-to-wheel combat, it is usually Verstappen who wins. From the outside, it often feels like Hamilton tenses up when he has to go wheel-to-wheel against Verstappen. He’s not his normal self.

That's because Hamilton was driving for a title whilst Verstappen had nothing to lose, Hamilton knew the situation, if I try to pass him there's going to be contact and I might not finish the race, it's sort of strange how Verstappen gets some kudos for what at times has been a bit like Maldonado level driving.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
If Lewis and Max ever end up constantly going at it I can see it either being some of the best wheel to wheel stuff of all time or just constantly ending in large repair bills. Neither of them will give an inch and both clearly like leaving a wheel in just to hammer home dominance. It'd be fireworks, thats for sure.

Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.


TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.


That isn’t really true because Rosberg only attempted to overtake Hamilton once over all of 2015 and 2016 and it was clean pass at Austin... So how can you say Hamilton would rather crash that let him by?


Even at the start? I think I remember Hamilton pushing Rosberg off at turn 1 at some point but I could be wrong.

I think we need to distinguish between slight contact and contact at a level that causes serious damage.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah Verstappen's racecraft seems to be if you try to pass me then there's going to be contact so not too dissmilar to what Rosberg did at times.


TBF at least by 2016 that was both Hamilton and Rosberg. Both would clearly rather crash than let the other pass.

Verstappen on the other hand has been overtaken without incident quite a few times. Now he's stopped all the weaving down the straight his race craft has gotten pretty good. I would say he's reasonably clean these days. TBH I'd feel more comfortable of not being involved in a crash racing Verstappen than either Vettel or Leclerc.


That isn’t really true because Rosberg only attempted to overtake Hamilton once over all of 2015 and 2016 and it was clean pass at Austin... So how can you say Hamilton would rather crash that let him by?


Even at the start? I think I remember Hamilton pushing Rosberg off at turn 1 at some point but I could be wrong.

I think we need to distinguish between slight contact and contact at a level that causes serious damage.


A lot of the time though can be incidental.

Look at the Ferrari's in Brazil. Very slight contact that caused both to retire. Any contact is a big risk. Sometimes you get away with it sometimes you don't.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:37 pm 
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I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the race track in an unsafe manner. But for some reason, this didn't get looked at. He also overtook Rosberg in sector 2 that had yellow flags where Perez had his issue. Why didn't they look at either of these things? But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:53 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the racetrack in an unsafe menner - but for some reason, this didn't get looked at. But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.


Pushing a driver off on corner entry has generally been treated differently to corner exit. I think it's basically because if you allow a move like Rosberg's in Austria then that basically ends overtaking in corners full stop. The driver on the inside just doesn't turn until he pushes the guy on the outside off. That could be done by any driver who is overtaking or defending up the inside. It would make DRS passes on the straight the only viable way to overtake somebody. Worth noting as well that Hamilton was ahead of Rosberg at corner entry so allowing it would effectively give carte blanche to however managed to get the inside line in any racing situation.

I would like to see pushing drivers off on the outside as Hamilton did in the US stamped out as well. The problem is we see it all the time and the stewards never ever penalise it. So how could they in that one particular case? It would go against every precedent.

So while I would like to see a penalty applied for that type of manoeuvre It would hardly be fair to call for one in that particular case whilst everyone else has got off scot free.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 1:05 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I am almost wondering if first lap in Austin 2015 and last lap in Austria 2016 could be compared.


In Austin, I think Rosberg was certainly alongside Hamilton enough for it to be expected that Hamilton should have given him a bit more room. In Austria the next year, admittedly Rosberg didn't even attempt to steer into the corner, so from this aspect, it looked worse. But Hamilton still turned into him despite it being clear that he would contact Rosberg and then wouldn't make the corner. This incident was Rosberg's fault, but i still question why Hamilton didn't just go off track in the first place like Rosberg did in the USA 2015. On the start of this race, if Rosberg chose to still keep turning in and staying on track, there will have been contact. Will Hamilton have got a penalty then?

I can say that I think Austria was more Rosbergs fault than Hamilton was at fault in the USA, but I still think both should have got some penalty. And Rosberg dealt with the fact that it was obvious a crash was coming better than Hamilton. Even after the contact in Austria, Hamilton didn't slow down when he came back on track, and came back on contacting Rosberg's right rear tyre. I think this was poor judgement from him in terms of rejoining the race track in an unsafe manner. But for some reason, this didn't get looked at. He also overtook Rosberg in sector 2 that had yellow flags where Perez had his issue. Why didn't they look at either of these things? But rightly so, Rosberg did get a penalty for what he did. Did Rosberg going off track avoiding damage in the this possibly effects the stewards decision on any punishment for Hamilton in the USA? I really do think that if Rosberg had stayed on track, Hamilton could have been punished as it would have been a messy outcome too here.


Austin was worse, the reason for not punishing there was ridiculous, it was a deliberate attempt by Hamilton opening the steering mid corner.

Had it been a driver from another team, the team manager would have been on the radio to the race director straightaway.

Rosberg listening to Ross Brawn in Malaysia cooked his goose throughout his stay at Mercedes, as Hamilton's infringement is seen as him pushing the limit whereas Rosberg's is seen as crossing the line see Bahrain and Spa in Bahrain Rosberg didn't stand his ground n Hamilton got away with whereas at Spa he decided to not avoid the collision by standing his ground.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 2:16 pm 
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Greenman wrote:
.

You can always read what "you" said at the time ;

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13299&hilit=official+barcelona+2016+thread

.

Seems like people were generally congratulating him on a strong drive in which he beat Lewis fair and square.

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