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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:53 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.


I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:45 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:

I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?

The much more important distinction to be made regarding 2012 vs 2018 is that the W09 was a far better car than the F2012 by a clear margin.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:30 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?

I think it's fairly clear that Vettel of 2018 did not perform to the same level as Vettel of 2012, mostly in the key area of mistakes.

Note that I do still think Hamilton is at a level as high as Alonso ever reached right now. I just don't think he's having as hard a time of it, as evidenced by the fact that he's winning instead of coming up just short.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.


I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?


Hamilton was in a far more competitive car against a Vettel making far more mistakes.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Those scenarios are not the same for me.

Kimi and Massa were basically equal over 2007 and 2009 with Kimi better in the Wet. 2008 Massa was overall better. Overall pretty equal.

Hamilton was better than Button in all areas for 2.5 seasons with the exception of knowing the best time to change tyres in changing conditions. Button was better for half a season only, which coincided with Hamilton having 6 collisions in 9 races and a host of penalties and a mystery “illness” that he will spill the beans on after he retires. Everybody knows Hamilton was clearly better than Button, it was clear. Jenson grab a bunch of race wins by changing tyres at the exact right time.

The problem with Kimi is that 2003-2005 are the anomaly now, Webber beat Coulthard in the same way Kimi did in 03 and 04. Kimis 2005 was super impressive but JPM was new to the team, didn’t suit the car and injured himself.

The speed of 2003-2005 wasn’t visible at Sauber 01, Ferrari 07-09, Lotus 12-13, Ferrari 14, Ferrari 15-18 or Alfa 19. That’s 3 great seasons and 12 at a lower level in 3 different regulations and tyre types.


I know and I was clearly exaggerating regarding Button... It should have been clear.

Regarding Kimi, we are talking about 2003, which was the season mikeyg chose in his post. And in 2003, he was one of the best 3 drivers of the grid, unquestionably. To talk about his later career is pretty much shifting the goal posts in the context of that conversation, the focus was in 2002 and 2003. I agree that in the grand scheme that period is more of an anomaly now

Nobody would argue at that time Kimi was viewed in the top 3, the conversation was that the 2003 grid was brought forward as being better than the grid we weill see in 2021, in fact it went further than that with all the grids from 2003-2020 being better than the 2021 grid.


This is not what I said though, I do not share mikeyg's opinion of what grid is better, nor commented at that. I just commented on your view that because Kimi wasn't good in 2008 or so, then we are making excuses for him and a supposedly better driver. I think that it doesn't matter if Kimi did not perform well in 2008 or later, we had other drivers emerging to fill the position by that time. In 2003 he was performing like a top driver, and along with Montoya, Barrichello, Trulli, DC, and the young pretenders starting up, it was a good grid; it remains arguable if it was better or worse than today's. I do not object that by 2008 Kimi had entered a decline, but that's beyond the point of my post, which was that Kimi in 2003 was performing like a top driver.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:26 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:

I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?

The much more important distinction to be made regarding 2012 vs 2018 is that the W09 was a far better car than the F2012 by a clear margin.


Vettels car too though? 2018 Ferrari was also better than the 2012 Red Bull by a clear margin. In speed and reliability


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:45 am 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?

The much more important distinction to be made regarding 2012 vs 2018 is that the W09 was a far better car than the F2012 by a clear margin.


Vettels car too though? 2018 Ferrari was also better than the 2012 Red Bull by a clear margin. In speed and reliability


In speed compared to the opposition? The 2012 Red Bull had a much bigger speed margin over the Ferrari than the 2018 Ferrari had over the Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Hamilton was intrisically faster than Button, Kimi and Massa were equal season after season, the only variance was luck.
No, luck is always a factor and especially so in a mechanical sport. But luck was most certainly not the only variance when Massa and Räikkönen were the Ferrari drivers. As we've discussed on this forum so many times, Ferrari were actively chasing Alonso from as early as spring 2008. Intrinsic speed was not the reason; Alonso wasn't faster than Hamilton. His incredible adaptability coupled with competitive speed was. The reason not a single title was won while they had him on their books shows the car wasn't good enough. There's a limit to what an adaptable driver can wring out of a poorer car.

I would like to point out that in 2003, there was a tyre war on. Which was the reason Ferrari had 5 drivers testing round the clock to try and catch up with Michelin-shod teams, ending up with bespoke tyres for one of their drivers only.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 8:52 am 
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I think the reality is that at any one time you've only got 3 maybe 4 drivers on the grid that will really leave their mark on the history books. Most of the rest make up the numbers or are the could-have and what-if brigade and a few are the lucky-to-be-theres. Look at how Alesi was viewed after 1-2 seasons and compare that with what he actually achived. Fisi was was another and maybe even the Hulk.


Hamilton' pedigree isn't in doubt
I don't think Verstappens is either but he needs that WDC to cement
Leclerc is still a bit too early however promising the signs are
Ricciardo.. maybe but we've not seen him have to handle the pressure of carrying a leading team to a title

I honestly don't think it's a "weak" grid. One driver taking a lot of wins over a period will mean there are less winners of course, but I don't think that necessarily reflects on the abilities of the others.

Look at it this way, some suggest Shu's dominant years occurred with a relatively week grid because he won so many of the races. Imagine if he hadn't been there and the wins had been shared out amongst say Barrichello, Raikkonen, Montoya, Hakkinen, Button etc. Same drivers but we probably would be saying what a vintage line up it was as they had so many wins amongst them.

Another way to get the past the achievement vs potential. Hamiltons ability showed immediately and his presence strengthened the grid from day 1, before she started racking up the titles.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:21 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:

I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?

The much more important distinction to be made regarding 2012 vs 2018 is that the W09 was a far better car than the F2012 by a clear margin.

It was but Vettel won in 2012 but lost easily in 2018, both Alonso and Hamilton were better.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?


Hamilton was in a far more competitive car against a Vettel making far more mistakes.

Still up against the same driver and unlike Alonso he won easily, how can such things be measured?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?


Hamilton was in a far more competitive car against a Vettel making far more mistakes.

Still up against the same driver and unlike Alonso he won easily, how can such things be measured?


Quite easily tbf. Count the mistakes Vettel made and the points that cost in 2018 and do the same for 2012.

What do you think? Which year do you think Vettel drove better. 2012 or 2018?


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:54 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Those scenarios are not the same for me.

Kimi and Massa were basically equal over 2007 and 2009 with Kimi better in the Wet. 2008 Massa was overall better. Overall pretty equal.

Hamilton was better than Button in all areas for 2.5 seasons with the exception of knowing the best time to change tyres in changing conditions. Button was better for half a season only, which coincided with Hamilton having 6 collisions in 9 races and a host of penalties and a mystery “illness” that he will spill the beans on after he retires. Everybody knows Hamilton was clearly better than Button, it was clear. Jenson grab a bunch of race wins by changing tyres at the exact right time.

The problem with Kimi is that 2003-2005 are the anomaly now, Webber beat Coulthard in the same way Kimi did in 03 and 04. Kimis 2005 was super impressive but JPM was new to the team, didn’t suit the car and injured himself.

The speed of 2003-2005 wasn’t visible at Sauber 01, Ferrari 07-09, Lotus 12-13, Ferrari 14, Ferrari 15-18 or Alfa 19. That’s 3 great seasons and 12 at a lower level in 3 different regulations and tyre types.


I know and I was clearly exaggerating regarding Button... It should have been clear.

Regarding Kimi, we are talking about 2003, which was the season mikeyg chose in his post. And in 2003, he was one of the best 3 drivers of the grid, unquestionably. To talk about his later career is pretty much shifting the goal posts in the context of that conversation, the focus was in 2002 and 2003. I agree that in the grand scheme that period is more of an anomaly now

Nobody would argue at that time Kimi was viewed in the top 3, the conversation was that the 2003 grid was brought forward as being better than the grid we weill see in 2021, in fact it went further than that with all the grids from 2003-2020 being better than the 2021 grid.


This is not what I said though, I do not share mikeyg's opinion of what grid is better, nor commented at that. I just commented on your view that because Kimi wasn't good in 2008 or so, then we are making excuses for him and a supposedly better driver. I think that it doesn't matter if Kimi did not perform well in 2008 or later, we had other drivers emerging to fill the position by that time. In 2003 he was performing like a top driver, and along with Montoya, Barrichello, Trulli, DC, and the young pretenders starting up, it was a good grid; it remains arguable if it was better or worse than today's. I do not object that by 2008 Kimi had entered a decline, but that's beyond the point of my post, which was that Kimi in 2003 was performing like a top driver.

Those drivers you mention though were not top tier drivers but you can still say it was a good grid were Mikey is sayng that the 2021 grid will be weak, that's the main point of the thread.

In respect to Kimi I see a similar thing said about Vettel in this thread, at his best he would beat these young drivers, what happens is simply that they found tougher competition.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:00 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton was intrisically faster than Button, Kimi and Massa were equal season after season, the only variance was luck.
No, luck is always a factor and especially so in a mechanical sport. But luck was most certainly not the only variance when Massa and Räikkönen were the Ferrari drivers. As we've discussed on this forum so many times, Ferrari were actively chasing Alonso from as early as spring 2008. Intrinsic speed was not the reason; Alonso wasn't faster than Hamilton. His incredible adaptability coupled with competitive speed was. The reason not a single title was won while they had him on their books shows the car wasn't good enough. There's a limit to what an adaptable driver can wring out of a poorer car.

I would like to point out that in 2003, there was a tyre war on. Which was the reason Ferrari had 5 drivers testing round the clock to try and catch up with Michelin-shod teams, ending up with bespoke tyres for one of their drivers only.

I was comparing between teammates and not the competitiveness of the cars, of course Kimi and Massa were succesful because they had the best car, that wasn't given to Alonso.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:31 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
I think the reality is that at any one time you've only got 3 maybe 4 drivers on the grid that will really leave their mark on the history books. Most of the rest make up the numbers or are the could-have and what-if brigade and a few are the lucky-to-be-theres. Look at how Alesi was viewed after 1-2 seasons and compare that with what he actually achived. Fisi was was another and maybe even the Hulk.


Hamilton' pedigree isn't in doubt
I don't think Verstappens is either but he needs that WDC to cement
Leclerc is still a bit too early however promising the signs are
Ricciardo.. maybe but we've not seen him have to handle the pressure of carrying a leading team to a title

I honestly don't think it's a "weak" grid. One driver taking a lot of wins over a period will mean there are less winners of course, but I don't think that necessarily reflects on the abilities of the others.

Look at it this way, some suggest Shu's dominant years occurred with a relatively week grid because he won so many of the races. Imagine if he hadn't been there and the wins had been shared out amongst say Barrichello, Raikkonen, Montoya, Hakkinen, Button etc. Same drivers but we probably would be saying what a vintage line up it was as they had so many wins amongst them.

Another way to get the past the achievement vs potential. Hamiltons ability showed immediately and his presence strengthened the grid from day 1, before she started racking up the titles.

Indeed there was an obvious baton that got passed between 2006 and 2007, Alonso matched up well against Schumacher in 2006 then Hamilton matched up well against Alonso in 2007, then we have Verstappen who can take the baton even further.

Schumacher's toughest battle was against Alonso, all the other drivers that beat him had better cars, I would say the Schumacher decade of dominance was a weak period in F1.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?


Hamilton was in a far more competitive car against a Vettel making far more mistakes.

Still up against the same driver and unlike Alonso he won easily, how can such things be measured?


Quite easily tbf. Count the mistakes Vettel made and the points that cost in 2018 and do the same for 2012.

What do you think? Which year do you think Vettel drove better. 2012 or 2018?

Wasn't Vettel struggling to get into Q3 in the early part of the season and was being regularly out qualified by Webber?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well they were up against the same driver Vettel but I guess we will perceive that Hamilton was up against a weaker version of Vettel?


Hamilton was in a far more competitive car against a Vettel making far more mistakes.

Still up against the same driver and unlike Alonso he won easily, how can such things be measured?


Quite easily tbf. Count the mistakes Vettel made and the points that cost in 2018 and do the same for 2012.

What do you think? Which year do you think Vettel drove better. 2012 or 2018?

Wasn't Vettel struggling to get into Q3 in the early part of the season and was being regularly out qualified by Webber?


Yes, you've not answered the question?

I'll through another at you. Hamilton in 2011 or 2018? Still the same driver... so no difference?


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:55 am 
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I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the grid - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:35 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the gri
d - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.

Schrodinger's Grid? It is both strong and weak until observed? I actually agree, there aren't enough potential race winning cars to see if good drivers can be great with the pressure of leading races. We might actually have the best grid in years but we'll probably never know, such is the state of F1.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 1:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Hamilton was in a far more competitive car against a Vettel making far more mistakes.

Still up against the same driver and unlike Alonso he won easily, how can such things be measured?


Quite easily tbf. Count the mistakes Vettel made and the points that cost in 2018 and do the same for 2012.

What do you think? Which year do you think Vettel drove better. 2012 or 2018?

Wasn't Vettel struggling to get into Q3 in the early part of the season and was being regularly out qualified by Webber?


Yes, you've not answered the question?

I'll through another at you. Hamilton in 2011 or 2018? Still the same driver... so no difference?

Speed wise yes, mentally no, but then it's normal for drivers to improve on that aspect with experience.

Back to Vettel and the mistakes he's been making I would venture that today's cars are harder to drive on the limit, back then the cars allowed you to get back on the power before the apex, blown diffusers and gutless engines will allow for that, do that today and will either fly off the track or spin, I'd venture that's been half the mistakes he's made.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:09 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the grid - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.

In 2007 we just had one world champion on the grid and he had just the 2 titles, we had only two recognised top drivers Alonso and Kimi, two teams won all the races.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:24 pm 
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jono794 wrote:
Schrodinger's Grid? It is both strong and weak until observed? I actually agree, there aren't enough potential race winning cars to see if good drivers can be great with the pressure of leading races. We might actually have the best grid in years but we'll probably never know, such is the state of F1.
Remember when we had "post of the year" and similar categories? I would definitely vote for this one!

The only thing I would add is that not only aren't there enough race winning cars, but we aren't sufficiently aware which of the available cars are suited to which driver. It all begins and ends with "the car", but also what the teams do with it and who they're doing it for.

This week I read with some satisfaction that I'm not the only one who questions just how good last year's (and potentially 2018's) Ferrari really was. https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/10211/why-leclercsainz-lineup-wont-solve-ferrari-biggest-problem

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the grid - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.

In 2007 we just had one world champion on the grid and he had just the 2 titles, we had only two recognised top drivers Alonso and Kimi, two teams won all the races.


The difference is different teams won in 06 and different teams won in 08.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Schumacher's toughest battle was against Alonso, all the other drivers that beat him had better cars, I would say the Schumacher decade of dominance was a weak period in F1.


Well it's all subjective but just for fun here's a list of drivers that shared the podium with Schu across all his 91 wins:

Rubens Barrichello (32)
David Coulthard (21)
Juan Pablo Montoya (14)
Mika Häkkinen (13)
Damon Hill (10)
Eddie Irvine (10)
Fernando Alonso (9)
Kimi Räikkönen (9)

Ralf Schumacher (9)
Giancarlo Fisichella (8)
Gerhard Berger (7)
Jenson Button (7)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen (6)
Jean Alesi (6)
Felipe Massa (4)
Jacques Villeneuve (4)
Johnny Herbert (2)
Martin Brundle (2)
Alain Prost (1)
Jarno Trulli (1)
Jos Verstappen (1)
Nicola Larini (1)
Nigel Mansell (1)
Riccardo Patrese (1)
Robert Kubica (1)
Takuma Sato (1)
Tiago Monteiro (1)

I think the "problem" if that's the right word is Ferrari's dominance and their clear use of a No 2. I've always felt Schu's stats benefit massively from those things. 2 well know expressions from racing
1) "To finish first, first you have to finish" - well he enjoyed previously unheard of reliability across this period
2) "The first driver you have to beat his your team mate" - contracts signed, job done before the lights even go out

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 12:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the grid - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.

In 2007 we just had one world champion on the grid and he had just the 2 titles, we had only two recognised top drivers Alonso and Kimi, two teams won all the races.


The difference is different teams won in 06 and different teams won in 08.

3 teams won in 2019, 3 teams may win in 2021?

However this is about weak grids and we had a lack of champions and a lack of top drivers going into the 2007 season.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 12:43 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher's toughest battle was against Alonso, all the other drivers that beat him had better cars, I would say the Schumacher decade of dominance was a weak period in F1.


Well it's all subjective but just for fun here's a list of drivers that shared the podium with Schu across all his 91 wins:

Rubens Barrichello (32)
David Coulthard (21)
Juan Pablo Montoya (14)
Mika Häkkinen (13)
Damon Hill (10)
Eddie Irvine (10)
Fernando Alonso (9)
Kimi Räikkönen (9)

Ralf Schumacher (9)
Giancarlo Fisichella (8)
Gerhard Berger (7)
Jenson Button (7)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen (6)
Jean Alesi (6)
Felipe Massa (4)
Jacques Villeneuve (4)
Johnny Herbert (2)
Martin Brundle (2)
Alain Prost (1)
Jarno Trulli (1)
Jos Verstappen (1)
Nicola Larini (1)
Nigel Mansell (1)
Riccardo Patrese (1)
Robert Kubica (1)
Takuma Sato (1)
Tiago Monteiro (1)

I think the "problem" if that's the right word is Ferrari's dominance and their clear use of a No 2. I've always felt Schu's stats benefit massively from those things. 2 well know expressions from racing
1) "To finish first, first you have to finish" - well he enjoyed previously unheard of reliability across this period
2) "The first driver you have to beat his your team mate" - contracts signed, job done before the lights even go out

Yes and look at the top of the list, two career #2 drivers.

I've always viewed the Schumacher years as a weak period of F1 but that's not to infere that Schumacher wasn't a great driver.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the grid - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.

In 2007 we just had one world champion on the grid and he had just the 2 titles, we had only two recognised top drivers Alonso and Kimi, two teams won all the races.


The difference is different teams won in 06 and different teams won in 08.

3 teams won in 2019, 3 teams may win in 2021?

However this is about weak grids and we had a lack of champions and a lack of top drivers going into the 2007 season.


I agree, the grid wasn't at it's strongest going into 2007 either. Stronger than it was going into 2019 or 2020? Probably in my view.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:42 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the grid - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.

In 2007 we just had one world champion on the grid and he had just the 2 titles, we had only two recognised top drivers Alonso and Kimi, two teams won all the races.


The difference is different teams won in 06 and different teams won in 08.

3 teams won in 2019, 3 teams may win in 2021?

However this is about weak grids and we had a lack of champions and a lack of top drivers going into the 2007 season.


I agree, the grid wasn't at it's strongest going into 2007 either. Stronger than it was going into 2019 or 2020? Probably in my view.

3 WDC's with 10/11 titles against I WDC with just 2 titles, for me that doesn't stack up.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:04 pm 
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That's cool. You're allowed to disagree.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:48 am 
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So beyone the subjective, what is your measure of a strong grid? Number of Champions? Number of Championships? No of Winners? No of Wins etc
Would you inlcude past and present in the numbers?

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:51 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
That's cool. You're allowed to disagree.

Yes of course, there would be no debate if we all thought the same. :)

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:52 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
So beyone the subjective, what is your measure of a strong grid? Number of Champions? Number of Championships? No of Winners? No of Wins etc
Would you inlcude past and present in the numbers?

You're asking mikey?

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:05 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
So beyone the subjective, what is your measure of a strong grid? Number of Champions? Number of Championships? No of Winners? No of Wins etc
Would you inlcude past and present in the numbers?


I think it is entirely subjective. It's just about how you see the quality of the drivers at that time. I think the drivers we had in 2019 could be a big part of a very strong grid in a few years but that wouldn't make the 2019 grid stronger. Using 2003 as an example it would be how good Raikkonen was at that not 2019 that would matter.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
So beyone the subjective, what is your measure of a strong grid? Number of Champions? Number of Championships? No of Winners? No of Wins etc
Would you inlcude past and present in the numbers?

You're asking mikey?


just a general open question - interested to anyone's thoughts.

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:56 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
pokerman wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
So beyone the subjective, what is your measure of a strong grid? Number of Champions? Number of Championships? No of Winners? No of Wins etc
Would you inlcude past and present in the numbers?

You're asking mikey?


just a general open question - interested to anyone's thoughts.

For me it's how do you rate the driver at the top of the sport and what level of competition does he have.

Interesting in respect to this thread I've just watched the Missed Apex Podcast which mentions todays grid and the Dutch journalist nods in agreement, go to 22:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMGjOtqKJXM

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 12:04 pm 
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This is an interesting topic. Can I suggest OP adds a Poll?

As a numbers person I'm particularly keen to see what metrics people might use to try and quantify this and back their opinion up.

But even without that, if people feel it's weak/not weak - why? Presence of "proven" drivers seems to be biggest factor - particularly Champs. But then you get into to the benefit of viewing previous years grids with hindsight - i.e knowing what the drivers went on to achieve. 2001 always comes up in these discussions - you had Alonso, Raikkonen and Montoya as rookies, and Schu, Hakkinen and Villeneuve already on the grid.

Also, maybe another question, does a "weak" grid necessarily make for a less interesting season or less exciting racing?

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 12:32 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
This is an interesting topic. Can I suggest OP adds a Poll?

As a numbers person I'm particularly keen to see what metrics people might use to try and quantify this and back their opinion up.

But even without that, if people feel it's weak/not weak - why? Presence of "proven" drivers seems to be biggest factor - particularly Champs. But then you get into to the benefit of viewing previous years grids with hindsight - i.e knowing what the drivers went on to achieve. 2001 always comes up in these discussions - you had Alonso, Raikkonen and Montoya as rookies, and Schu, Hakkinen and Villeneuve already on the grid.

Also, maybe another question, does a "weak" grid necessarily make for a less interesting season or less exciting racing?


I just simply don't think there are many that are that good at the moment. I struggle to come up with a top 10 without picking some drivers where I don't really feel that's justified.

There is a lot of drivers on the grid that could go on to be parts of great grids in the future though. A week grid can make things less exciting or more exciting depending on where the best drivers end up.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 12:39 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
This is an interesting topic. Can I suggest OP adds a Poll?

As a numbers person I'm particularly keen to see what metrics people might use to try and quantify this and back their opinion up.

But even without that, if people feel it's weak/not weak - why? Presence of "proven" drivers seems to be biggest factor - particularly Champs. But then you get into to the benefit of viewing previous years grids with hindsight - i.e knowing what the drivers went on to achieve. 2001 always comes up in these discussions - you had Alonso, Raikkonen and Montoya as rookies, and Schu, Hakkinen and Villeneuve already on the grid.

Also, maybe another question, does a "weak" grid necessarily make for a less interesting season or less exciting racing?


Pertinent comment.

We're often told that we can't compare drivers from different eras. Problem with this "era" is that we can't even compare the field from one year to another during the same "era".
Put one driver the caliber of Hamilton in the first seat of every team and one the caliber of Bottas in the second seat of every team, that would be a very strong grid but nevertheless the order at the end of every season would be exactly the same as it was... With Mercedes' Hamilton topping the WDC. (and no, I don't want to discuss what would have done the Ferrari's Hamilton clone that Vettel didn't do).
Now replace all the Hamiltons and Bottases in every other team than Mercedes, by a "weaker" pair of first and second driver, the results would still remain the same. With Mercedes' Hamilton topping the WDC. Good luck to compare the relative quality of the 2 grids.

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 12:53 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
This is an interesting topic. Can I suggest OP adds a Poll?

As a numbers person I'm particularly keen to see what metrics people might use to try and quantify this and back their opinion up.

But even without that, if people feel it's weak/not weak - why? Presence of "proven" drivers seems to be biggest factor - particularly Champs. But then you get into to the benefit of viewing previous years grids with hindsight - i.e knowing what the drivers went on to achieve. 2001 always comes up in these discussions - you had Alonso, Raikkonen and Montoya as rookies, and Schu, Hakkinen and Villeneuve already on the grid.

Also, maybe another question, does a "weak" grid necessarily make for a less interesting season or less exciting racing?

I think you will find it a bit bereft of actual facts and it being solely personal opinion.

I think you have to have a certain amount of belief in the drivers, the Schumacher years for me were the dark years of F1, one outstanding driver amongst some second rate champions and I would only give Hakkinen a pass.

All the drivers from the 80s were gone, Piquet, Villenueve, Lauda, Prost, Rosberg, Mansell, Senna was virtually the last man standing, he died and we were left trying to find credible opposition for Schumacher.

I must admit it's a period of time when I zoned out of F1 a bit, these years were known as the Schumacher/Newey years, a driver competing against a designer because there was no credible driver to pitch up against Schumacher, Hakkinen was only credible for 2 years, when he didn't have the best car DC would often have the beating of him, he would sort of lose interest and no surprise to see him retire at 32.

It wasn't until the 2000s that we started to see the influx of promising young drivers, remember Senna died in 1994. Kimi, Montoya, I was never a fan of Kimi, he wasn't dynamic enough, I was a fan of Montoya but he really only had a few years when he looked to be any good.

However Alonso came along and finally a driver that looked to have something special and carried that forward, 2 world titles, the second an epic battle against Schumacher, I had a standard bearer for the future.

Unfortunately the admiration lasted for just one season when he showed just how toxic he could be, that however didn't take away what an outstanding driver he was and still is, and then when you see how today's drivers compare to Alonso then how can this be a weak grid just because the 5th best driver Vettel may retire this year?

When people say in 2021 we are going to have a weak grid then I have to wonder how long they've been watching F1 or what version of F1 have they been watching?

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 3:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I agree the grid is young and unproven and therefore, it is weak. When Vettel leaves, and assuming Alonso does not return, then you have 2 WDCs on the grid - and that is assuming Kimi stays (and he won't be challenging with his team). Of the remaining, Verstappen and Riccardo could possibly challenge. But I don't trust McLaren to really give Dan the ride he needs to pull it off. That leaves Max. Bottas could challenge, I think, but I think Lewis will have priority. So that leaves us with a fairly weak field. The young drivers have potential, but they need time. We've never seen Any of the non WDCs legitimately fight for the title and so, we have no idea how they will respond to that very special/particular pressure.

In 2007 we just had one world champion on the grid and he had just the 2 titles, we had only two recognised top drivers Alonso and Kimi, two teams won all the races.


A similarly weak season. Hopefully it ends up the same eventually. It could end up even stronger if McLaren, Ferrari and RBR consistenly challenge Merc. That was the thing about 2007 onward, we eventually had 6 strong cars in the field with McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari. So we had 6 drivers with a chance to show their ability - teams willing.


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