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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:34 am 
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Mod Note: These posts were split from the thread Vettel: What do you think he should do next? as the topic is worthy of discussion but was detracting from the main topic of the original thread - there were posts earlier in that thread that this relates to, but this was the best point to branch the topic off from, as those earlier posts also belonged in the original


I am getting a little bit tired of this "weak grid" narrative, especially as I don't think it's a fair reflection of the current grid.

It's a young grid, it's an unproven grid, sure - but that doesn't mean weak. Two of the young drivers are now multiple race winners, two of the others (Norris and Russell) allowed genuine star quality in their path to F1. It's too early to call any of them greats yet - although I think most will be shocked if Max doesn't go on to be a multi WDC.

Mercedes have the second most successful driver in F1 history in one of their seats with a high performing second driver. Are there better drivers than Bottas available? Yes. How many times in F1 history have teams paired two absolute top talents? Very rarely and it always ended up in chaos.

So saying that because there are better drivers than Bottas available is not an argument for this being a weak grid, when Bottas is fairly typical quality for the partner driver to a great.

Ferrari have got rid of Vettel, yes. But he was a driver approaching the end of the career and the driver they have retained beat him over the course of their sole season together. Given Ferrari are looking to the future, and the problems the pairing caused them in 2019, one of them had to go and 2019 showed they were of roughly equal speed. Vettel had 5 seasons with the team, at least two of which he had a championship capable car, and he didn't deliver. Leclerc is yet to get that chance, is at the start of his journey and has a better relationship with the team.

As for Red Bull - they believe Max is better than Vettel and most rate him as being at the same level as Hamilton.

Sainz is not a weak driver. Here's definitely typical of top team support driver level like Bottas in Mercedes.

Ricciardo beat Vettel and depending on how you view their time together, equal or almost equal to Max. He's not been in contention for a WDC yet, but he's been best of the rest in 2014 and 2016 and even started off strongly in 2018 before his relationship with Red Bull broke down.

Of course with Vettel pushed out at Ferrari, and possibly the sport, and Alonso without a drive these are two big names not racing. Both could have drives if they wanted, but they want to challenge for wins and titles. There has always been a limited number of race winning seats available - and of rumours are true then Alonso is angling for a return at Renault if they agree to his terms. However, it's very likely that Max, Charles, Lando and George will wind up with more than 6 titles between them so it's not like we are trading down.

Alonso and Vettel are not 25 any more. Alonso is almost 40. Yes he's better than the average 30 year old F1 driver, but the average 30 year old F1 driver is driving in the midfield. And that's not where he wants to be.



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 8:07 am 
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I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:09 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am getting a little bit tired of this "weak grid" narrative, especially as I don't think it's a fair reflection of the current grid.

It's a young grid, it's an unproven grid, sure - but that doesn't mean weak. Two of the young drivers are now multiple race winners, two of the others (Norris and Russell) allowed genuine star quality in their path to F1. It's too early to call any of them greats yet - although I think most will be shocked if Max doesn't go on to be a multi WDC.

Mercedes have the second most successful driver in F1 history in one of their seats with a high performing second driver. Are there better drivers than Bottas available? Yes. How many times in F1 history have teams paired two absolute top talents? Very rarely and it always ended up in chaos.

So saying that because there are better drivers than Bottas available is not an argument for this being a weak grid, when Bottas is fairly typical quality for the partner driver to a great.

Ferrari have got rid of Vettel, yes. But he was a driver approaching the end of the career and the driver they have retained beat him over the course of their sole season together. Given Ferrari are looking to the future, and the problems the pairing caused them in 2019, one of them had to go and 2019 showed they were of roughly equal speed. Vettel had 5 seasons with the team, at least two of which he had a championship capable car, and he didn't deliver. Leclerc is yet to get that chance, is at the start of his journey and has a better relationship with the team.

As for Red Bull - they believe Max is better than Vettel and most rate him as being at the same level as Hamilton.

Sainz is not a weak driver. Here's definitely typical of top team support driver level like Bottas in Mercedes.

Ricciardo beat Vettel and depending on how you view their time together, equal or almost equal to Max. He's not been in contention for a WDC yet, but he's been best of the rest in 2014 and 2016 and even started off strongly in 2018 before his relationship with Red Bull broke down.

Of course with Vettel pushed out at Ferrari, and possibly the sport, and Alonso without a drive these are two big names not racing. Both could have drives if they wanted, but they want to challenge for wins and titles. There has always been a limited number of race winning seats available - and of rumours are true then Alonso is angling for a return at Renault if they agree to his terms. However, it's very likely that Max, Charles, Lando and George will wind up with more than 6 titles between them so it's not like we are trading down.

Alonso and Vettel are not 25 any more. Alonso is almost 40. Yes he's better than the average 30 year old F1 driver, but the average 30 year old F1 driver is driving in the midfield. And that's not where he wants to be.


It's kind of strange that one driver put forward as a paragon of the strength of the 2010 grid because he was a multiple winner and a WDC challenger, Massa, got rinsed by Bottas but Bottas is seen as a weak driver in a top team.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:12 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 12:17 am 
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Invade wrote:
I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

I think you've hit upon the distinction, and why some might think this grid is weak. In terms of accomplishment, Vettel and Hamilton are the only two who are established as top drivers. But I don't see that as the same thing as ability at all. The fact that the likes of Massa, Webber and Coulthard were all serial race winners to me implies a weakness in their era, not a weakness in the current one for having fewer winners.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 6:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 9:02 am 
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As per the comment I inserted at the top - this has been split from the Vettel: What do you think he should do next? thread so it can talk about this topic without detracting from the original thread.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 9:08 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.

A grid getting weaker does not mean the grid is weak, let alone one of the weakest. And a 2018 Alonso was not as strong as a 2012 Alonso. When Schumacher retired the 2007 grid wasn't weak.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 9:20 am 
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I don't think the grid is weak, but it is weakening - at least on paper. 10yrs time, you might look back very different.

I think my biggest frustration is that we are in the dying embers of what should have been a golden era in terms of talent, but for reasons of the way the sport is now..... it ever happened.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 10:06 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.

A grid getting weaker does not mean the grid is weak, let alone one of the weakest. And a 2018 Alonso was not as strong as a 2012 Alonso. When Schumacher retired the 2007 grid wasn't weak.


I agree weak is obviously relative. When I said weak I meant weak in the context of modern F1. I think I said weakest since 2002 which I stand by. Over the last few years we keep losing drivers that would be in the top half before there times really up which is taking away from the depth on show.

I think the grid has potential. The drivers currently involved could form the main part of a very strong grid in years to come but as of right now I don't think it is as strong as years gone by. As I say it has potential so I don't think it's anything we really need to worry about.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 10:41 am 
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It's a period of transition. The next generation of top drivers are starting to move into the top seats, and there are some really top talents among them. I don't see how the likes of Verstappen, Leclerc, Sainz, Norris, Russell etc could possibly be considered to be "weaker" than the top drivers of the past. Ricciardo is a little older but he is good enough to be mentioned in that category as well.

We've had an unprecedented period of stability in terms of the teams and drivers filling the front slots of the grid, and once those drivers start to move aside that leaves very few drivers with any notable career stats or achievements. If Vettel retires from the sport at the end of the season, and it's conceivable that Kimi may well do as well, then that could leave us with just 5 Grand Prix winners on the grid for 2021. Have there ever been that few race winners around since the championship started in 1950? Even so, I don't think it is fair to equate that with a weak grid. "Unproven" might be a more accurate word to use. But even then I think these drivers have proven their talent enough already, all they're really missing is a car good enough to rack up the statistics that a top driver should have.

It's an exciting time for the sport if you ask me. It's a changing of the guard, we have some new names at the front all jostling to prove themselves the best of the new generation.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 11:47 am 
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j man wrote:
It's a period of transition. The next generation of top drivers are starting to move into the top seats, and there are some really top talents among them. I don't see how the likes of Verstappen, Leclerc, Sainz, Norris, Russell etc could possibly be considered to be "weaker" than the top drivers of the past. Ricciardo is a little older but he is good enough to be mentioned in that category as well.

We've had an unprecedented period of stability in terms of the teams and drivers filling the front slots of the grid, and once those drivers start to move aside that leaves very few drivers with any notable career stats or achievements. If Vettel retires from the sport at the end of the season, and it's conceivable that Kimi may well do as well, then that could leave us with just 5 Grand Prix winners on the grid for 2021. Have there ever been that few race winners around since the championship started in 1950? Even so, I don't think it is fair to equate that with a weak grid. "Unproven" might be a more accurate word to use. But even then I think these drivers have proven their talent enough already, all they're really missing is a car good enough to rack up the statistics that a top driver should have.

It's an exciting time for the sport if you ask me. It's a changing of the guard, we have some new names at the front all jostling to prove themselves the best of the new generation.


The opening race in 95 can't have had many. Hill, Schumacher, Berger... That season had echo's of the position we might be coming into now. Prost, Senna and Mansell gone. Schumacher and Hill seen as the new big names. Coulthard, Barrichello, Hakkinen, Alesi the exciting prospects that needed to step up.

I agree it's exciting.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.

I think no one would disagree that losing such drivers makes the grid weaker but that doesn't necessarily make the grid weak, on the contrary I would say it speaks volumes of the current grid that Alonso and Vettel can't get top drives because of the quality of the #1 drivers in the top teams.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 5:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.

I think no one would disagree that losing such drivers makes the grid weaker but that doesn't necessarily make the grid weak, on the contrary I would say it speaks volumes of the current grid that Alonso and Vettel can't get top drives because of the quality of the #1 drivers in the top teams.


Weak is obviously a relative term. As I said I think it's the weakest since 2002 so weak in a contemparary sense.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 10:11 am 
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I think most would agree the strongest grid we've had, certainly in recent memory, was 2012. If Kubica hadn't been injured and taken Massa's seat at Ferrari, that really would have been the icing on the cake. I'd say right now we are weaker than that, certainly but not weak overall. Compare this to the mid 90s when I started watching and we had the likes of Inoue, Katayama, J Mag... even drivers like Andretti and Capelli ending up in McLarens and Ferraris.

I think we'll look back on this era in 15 years and say, "wow, remember when we had Max, Norris, LeClerc, Ocon and Gasly on the grid, racing against Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen and Ricciardo."

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 10:31 am 
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I think it's pretty strong. There's an element of feeling that there's a lot of young and relatively inexperienced drivers and therefore this could mean it's weak. Of course, none of us actually know, but it could be that having so many young and talented drivers brought in, rather than keeping experienced drivers simply because they are a known name. means we have drivers who are on the whole faster.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 11:51 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.

I think no one would disagree that losing such drivers makes the grid weaker but that doesn't necessarily make the grid weak, on the contrary I would say it speaks volumes of the current grid that Alonso and Vettel can't get top drives because of the quality of the #1 drivers in the top teams.


Weak is obviously a relative term. As I said I think it's the weakest since 2002 so weak in a contemparary sense.

Sorry but it's noticeable how much of this revolves aound Alonso, 2002 was the year he didn't race after racing in 2001 and then he returned in 2003 then all of a sudden F1 was strong again.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 2:08 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Compare this to the mid 90s when I started watching and we had the likes of Inoue, Katayama, J Mag... even drivers like Andretti and Capelli ending up in McLarens and Ferraris.
I happen to think that the team/environment a driver happens to come into can be decisive for how he develops as a F1 driver. It is possible to see too much potential in a driver, just as it may be underestimated. Even these past few years have shown us that F2 is not the best indicator of who to go with. Take Leclerc as an example; he seemed destined for great things, and yet he wasn't taken straight into a top team. Some may point to Verstappen and I would agree. Red Bull seem to have the luxury of doing away with contract difficulties, through the advantage of having two teams. Edit: but I do find it necessary to point out a team should take responsibility for a driver, and refuse to let him barge into everybody with the excuse of saying he will improve later, when a title may be at stake. That, in my opinion, clearly points to the role a team has on helping a driver reach his clear potential. And it is where Red Bull have failed with Verstappen, and possibly Webber and Ricciardo too -though in their case in not allowing them to blossom.

I don't agree with the apparent criticism of Capelli and Andretti. There was more there than the teams/cars were able to unlock. Especially Ferrari seem to have allowed lots of talent to fall by the wayside in their era. (Prost, anyone?)

Banana Man wrote:
I think we'll look back on this era in 15 years and say, "wow, remember when we had Max, Norris, LeClerc, Ocon and Gasly on the grid, racing against Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen and Ricciardo."
I can only agree.

The grid isn't weak, it is simply far too small. So far, selling F1 has not made much sense, has it? Then again, Bernie was unable to make the business take a correcting turn to the sporting side of things, so what chance does anyone else have?

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 2:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.

I think no one would disagree that losing such drivers makes the grid weaker but that doesn't necessarily make the grid weak, on the contrary I would say it speaks volumes of the current grid that Alonso and Vettel can't get top drives because of the quality of the #1 drivers in the top teams.


Weak is obviously a relative term. As I said I think it's the weakest since 2002 so weak in a contemparary sense.

Sorry but it's noticeable how much of this revolves aound Alonso, 2002 was the year he didn't race after racing in 2001 and then he returned in 2003 then all of a sudden F1 was strong again.


You really need to park your Alonso obsession. He plays a part obviously but only a small part.

Besides Alonso coming into his own I picked 2003 because Raikkonen was hitting his peak, as was Montoya and Button was just finding top gear and Webber was performing well and looking like a prospect. At the same time we still had drivers of the previous generation at their peaks. I think the current field is stronger than any pre 2003.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 4:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.

I think no one would disagree that losing such drivers makes the grid weaker but that doesn't necessarily make the grid weak, on the contrary I would say it speaks volumes of the current grid that Alonso and Vettel can't get top drives because of the quality of the #1 drivers in the top teams.


Weak is obviously a relative term. As I said I think it's the weakest since 2002 so weak in a contemparary sense.

Sorry but it's noticeable how much of this revolves aound Alonso, 2002 was the year he didn't race after racing in 2001 and then he returned in 2003 then all of a sudden F1 was strong again.


You really need to park your Alonso obsession. He plays a part obviously but only a small part.

Besides Alonso coming into his own I picked 2003 because Raikkonen was hitting his peak, as was Montoya and Button was just finding top gear and Webber was performing well and looking like a prospect. At the same time we still had drivers of the previous generation at their peaks. I think the current field is stronger than any pre 2003.

What peaks are these, some of these drivers got found out somewhat, wasn't it either 2002 or 2003 that Fisichella was seen as the second best driver, he was certainly seen as a top driver.

Kimi and Webber were easily beat by Vettel, Montoya basically left because he was getting beat by Kimi, the best drivers that emerged from that time were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, Button at best would make the top 6 on todays grid.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 5:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think no one would disagree that losing such drivers makes the grid weaker but that doesn't necessarily make the grid weak, on the contrary I would say it speaks volumes of the current grid that Alonso and Vettel can't get top drives because of the quality of the #1 drivers in the top teams.


Weak is obviously a relative term. As I said I think it's the weakest since 2002 so weak in a contemparary sense.

Sorry but it's noticeable how much of this revolves aound Alonso, 2002 was the year he didn't race after racing in 2001 and then he returned in 2003 then all of a sudden F1 was strong again.


You really need to park your Alonso obsession. He plays a part obviously but only a small part.

Besides Alonso coming into his own I picked 2003 because Raikkonen was hitting his peak, as was Montoya and Button was just finding top gear and Webber was performing well and looking like a prospect. At the same time we still had drivers of the previous generation at their peaks. I think the current field is stronger than any pre 2003.

What peaks are these, some of these drivers got found out somewhat, wasn't it either 2002 or 2003 that Fisichella was seen as the second best driver, he was certainly seen as a top driver.

Kimi and Webber were easily beat by Vettel, Montoya basically left because he was getting beat by Kimi, the best drivers that emerged from that time were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, Button at best would make the top 6 on todays grid.


2002. Which is another reason I picked out 2003. I think it's clear to everyone the Kimi of 2003 was not the Kimi getting beat by Vettel. IMO opinion the grid is definitely weaker now than in 03. As I have said though we have the making of a good grid in a few years so not much to worry about. We've just been losing a few top 10 drivers in recent years.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:19 am 
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I think stability in driver line ups, the performance lock in at the front and one team winning 70% odd of races for the last 6yrs has given a far more skewed perception of weak grid.

Sainz is the first driver in an age to land a race winning seat without affiliation to the team or.... already being a champion.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:24 am 
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I believe it was Pedro De La Rosa who said that each generation of Formula 1 drivers are better and more prepared than the previous generation. He used this logic to justify his claim on why he believes that Hamilton-Alonso is the best driver pairing ever, better than Senna-Prost.

We can use Leclerc-Vettel-Kimi-Alonso as a cross comparison. This cross comparison suggests that Leclerc is as quick over one lap as Alonso was, Vettel about a tenth slower, and Raikkonen another two tenths slower than Vettel.

Ricciardo’s performances against Hulkenberg suggest that Verstappen has at least a 3 tenths speed advantage over a Hulkenberg/Perez level driver. That puts him well inside Hamilton territory if not slightly quicker.

The grid looks weak right now because neither Verstappen or Leclerc (and also Russell I think) are unproven. If you give them the right car, that perception will change.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:43 am 
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I think the average skill level is higher than ever, 80% of the grid are within 0.4-0.5 of the fastest driver I would say. How can it be a weak grid if it has 2 all time greats and another 2-3 that look certain to go down as greats.

The end of 2006 grid was weaker having just lost Schumacher and Montoya, Alonso was the only world class driver (although we had Kimi in that bracket at the time). But then Hamilton and Vettel arrived the same year.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:47 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Weak is obviously a relative term. As I said I think it's the weakest since 2002 so weak in a contemparary sense.

Sorry but it's noticeable how much of this revolves aound Alonso, 2002 was the year he didn't race after racing in 2001 and then he returned in 2003 then all of a sudden F1 was strong again.


You really need to park your Alonso obsession. He plays a part obviously but only a small part.

Besides Alonso coming into his own I picked 2003 because Raikkonen was hitting his peak, as was Montoya and Button was just finding top gear and Webber was performing well and looking like a prospect. At the same time we still had drivers of the previous generation at their peaks. I think the current field is stronger than any pre 2003.

What peaks are these, some of these drivers got found out somewhat, wasn't it either 2002 or 2003 that Fisichella was seen as the second best driver, he was certainly seen as a top driver.

Kimi and Webber were easily beat by Vettel, Montoya basically left because he was getting beat by Kimi, the best drivers that emerged from that time were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, Button at best would make the top 6 on todays grid.


2002. Which is another reason I picked out 2003. I think it's clear to everyone the Kimi of 2003 was not the Kimi getting beat by Vettel. IMO opinion the grid is definitely weaker now than in 03. As I have said though we have the making of a good grid in a few years so not much to worry about. We've just been losing a few top 10 drivers in recent years.

4 Years later aged about 27 Kimi showed himself to be no quicker than Massa, we seem to have the need to make excuses for these supposedly better drivers.

Like I said the standouts were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, the 2021 grid will have Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo and that's a minimum of stand out drivers on the grid there could be and are probably more.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:49 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
I believe it was Pedro De La Rosa who said that each generation of Formula 1 drivers are better and more prepared than the previous generation. He used this logic to justify his claim on why he believes that Hamilton-Alonso is the best driver pairing ever, better than Senna-Prost.

We can use Leclerc-Vettel-Kimi-Alonso as a cross comparison. This cross comparison suggests that Leclerc is as quick over one lap as Alonso was, Vettel about a tenth slower, and Raikkonen another two tenths slower than Vettel.

Ricciardo’s performances against Hulkenberg suggest that Verstappen has at least a 3 tenths speed advantage over a Hulkenberg/Perez level driver. That puts him well inside Hamilton territory if not slightly quicker.

The grid looks weak right now because neither Verstappen or Leclerc (and also Russell I think) are unproven. If you give them the right car, that perception will change.

Your numbers tally with mine. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:22 pm 
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Looks like we might be getting Alonso back... provided that Vettel stays, could it be one of the strongest grids of all time now?

Alonso 2, Hamilton 6, Vettel 4, Kimi 1 and then surely another 5-6 WDC spread between Verstappen, Leclerc, Russell and Ricciardo.

It could be looked back at as having 20 WDC’s in a field. I know that is just looking at WDC.

Alonso, Verstappen and Hamilton are the best 3 drivers to debut in the last 30 years for me. Ok,29 years.. provided Alonso isn’t past his best we are back to A very strong grid?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sorry but it's noticeable how much of this revolves aound Alonso, 2002 was the year he didn't race after racing in 2001 and then he returned in 2003 then all of a sudden F1 was strong again.


You really need to park your Alonso obsession. He plays a part obviously but only a small part.

Besides Alonso coming into his own I picked 2003 because Raikkonen was hitting his peak, as was Montoya and Button was just finding top gear and Webber was performing well and looking like a prospect. At the same time we still had drivers of the previous generation at their peaks. I think the current field is stronger than any pre 2003.

What peaks are these, some of these drivers got found out somewhat, wasn't it either 2002 or 2003 that Fisichella was seen as the second best driver, he was certainly seen as a top driver.

Kimi and Webber were easily beat by Vettel, Montoya basically left because he was getting beat by Kimi, the best drivers that emerged from that time were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, Button at best would make the top 6 on todays grid.


2002. Which is another reason I picked out 2003. I think it's clear to everyone the Kimi of 2003 was not the Kimi getting beat by Vettel. IMO opinion the grid is definitely weaker now than in 03. As I have said though we have the making of a good grid in a few years so not much to worry about. We've just been losing a few top 10 drivers in recent years.

4 Years later aged about 27 Kimi showed himself to be no quicker than Massa, we seem to have the need to make excuses for these supposedly better drivers.

Like I said the standouts were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, the 2021 grid will have Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo and that's a minimum of stand out drivers on the grid there could be and are probably more.


Come on, 2003 Kimi was really fast, probably I'd pick him over Ricciardo, it is absurd to suggest that Kimi was weak that year because he lost to Massa in 2008. With a bit of luck he could have been the 2003 WDC (beating a certain Schumacher) and no one would have any objections. The fact that Massa bested him later on is much like Button besting Hamilton in 2011, it does not make Hamilton a worse driver than him in general.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:59 pm 
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Those scenarios are not the same for me.

Kimi and Massa were basically equal over 2007 and 2009 with Kimi better in the Wet. 2008 Massa was overall better. Overall pretty equal.

Hamilton was better than Button in all areas for 2.5 seasons with the exception of knowing the best time to change tyres in changing conditions. Button was better for half a season only, which coincided with Hamilton having 6 collisions in 9 races and a host of penalties and a mystery “illness” that he will spill the beans on after he retires. Everybody knows Hamilton was clearly better than Button, it was clear. Jenson grab a bunch of race wins by changing tyres at the exact right time.

The problem with Kimi is that 2003-2005 are the anomaly now, Webber beat Coulthard in the same way Kimi did in 03 and 04. Kimis 2005 was super impressive but JPM was new to the team, didn’t suit the car and injured himself.

The speed of 2003-2005 wasn’t visible at Sauber 01, Ferrari 07-09, Lotus 12-13, Ferrari 14, Ferrari 15-18 or Alfa 19. That’s 3 great seasons and 12 at a lower level in 3 different regulations and tyre types.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:31 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Those scenarios are not the same for me.

Kimi and Massa were basically equal over 2007 and 2009 with Kimi better in the Wet. 2008 Massa was overall better. Overall pretty equal.

Hamilton was better than Button in all areas for 2.5 seasons with the exception of knowing the best time to change tyres in changing conditions. Button was better for half a season only, which coincided with Hamilton having 6 collisions in 9 races and a host of penalties and a mystery “illness” that he will spill the beans on after he retires. Everybody knows Hamilton was clearly better than Button, it was clear. Jenson grab a bunch of race wins by changing tyres at the exact right time.

The problem with Kimi is that 2003-2005 are the anomaly now, Webber beat Coulthard in the same way Kimi did in 03 and 04. Kimis 2005 was super impressive but JPM was new to the team, didn’t suit the car and injured himself.

The speed of 2003-2005 wasn’t visible at Sauber 01, Ferrari 07-09, Lotus 12-13, Ferrari 14, Ferrari 15-18 or Alfa 19. That’s 3 great seasons and 12 at a lower level in 3 different regulations and tyre types.


I know and I was clearly exaggerating regarding Button... It should have been clear.

Regarding Kimi, we are talking about 2003, which was the season mikeyg chose in his post. And in 2003, he was one of the best 3 drivers of the grid, unquestionably. To talk about his later career is pretty much shifting the goal posts in the context of that conversation, the focus was in 2002 and 2003. I agree that in the grand scheme that period is more of an anomaly now


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:50 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Those scenarios are not the same for me.

Kimi and Massa were basically equal over 2007 and 2009 with Kimi better in the Wet. 2008 Massa was overall better. Overall pretty equal.

Hamilton was better than Button in all areas for 2.5 seasons with the exception of knowing the best time to change tyres in changing conditions. Button was better for half a season only, which coincided with Hamilton having 6 collisions in 9 races and a host of penalties and a mystery “illness” that he will spill the beans on after he retires. Everybody knows Hamilton was clearly better than Button, it was clear. Jenson grab a bunch of race wins by changing tyres at the exact right time.

The problem with Kimi is that 2003-2005 are the anomaly now, Webber beat Coulthard in the same way Kimi did in 03 and 04. Kimis 2005 was super impressive but JPM was new to the team, didn’t suit the car and injured himself.

The speed of 2003-2005 wasn’t visible at Sauber 01, Ferrari 07-09, Lotus 12-13, Ferrari 14, Ferrari 15-18 or Alfa 19. That’s 3 great seasons and 12 at a lower level in 3 different regulations and tyre types.


I know and I was clearly exaggerating regarding Button... It should have been clear.

Regarding Kimi, we are talking about 2003, which was the season mikeyg chose in his post. And in 2003, he was one of the best 3 drivers of the grid, unquestionably. To talk about his later career is pretty much shifting the goal posts in the context of that conversation, the focus was in 2002 and 2003. I agree that in the grand scheme that period is more of an anomaly now


My point would be that not only would the 03 version of Kimi be in the top 3 on the 2003 grid he would be better than anyone bar Hamilton on the 2019 grid.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:39 pm 
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From a very non-scientific point of view I don’t remember the last time I was so excited about the overall field of young/rookie drivers. To the point I’ll probably be supporting 7 drivers this year 8O I’m loving the current grid weak or otherwise!


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:14 pm 
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Biffa wrote:
From a very non-scientific point of view I don’t remember the last time I was so excited about the overall field of young/rookie drivers. To the point I’ll probably be supporting 7 drivers this year 8O I’m loving the current grid weak or otherwise!


Verstappen, Leclerc, Ocon, Russell, Sainz, Norris, Albon... we're really spoilt for choice as to which driver we want to support in the next era. One could argue each driver has their own personality as well.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.


I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.


I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.


I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.


I think you'd have to be a very harsh judge to not think Hamilton is at that level now. He's been superb in 2018/19. Given the circumstances he's in (very competitive car) their really isn't anything more he could have done. I still rate Alonso higher when comparing both their careers, but Hamilton is now as good IMO.


Just because there is an upper bound to achievements doesn't mean you can justify rating Hamilton's WDC winning performances equal or greater than Alonso's 2012 performance. It's been relatively plain sailing for him, and has been far less of a challenge than Alonso's position in 2012.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:27 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
You really need to park your Alonso obsession. He plays a part obviously but only a small part.

Besides Alonso coming into his own I picked 2003 because Raikkonen was hitting his peak, as was Montoya and Button was just finding top gear and Webber was performing well and looking like a prospect. At the same time we still had drivers of the previous generation at their peaks. I think the current field is stronger than any pre 2003.

What peaks are these, some of these drivers got found out somewhat, wasn't it either 2002 or 2003 that Fisichella was seen as the second best driver, he was certainly seen as a top driver.

Kimi and Webber were easily beat by Vettel, Montoya basically left because he was getting beat by Kimi, the best drivers that emerged from that time were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, Button at best would make the top 6 on todays grid.


2002. Which is another reason I picked out 2003. I think it's clear to everyone the Kimi of 2003 was not the Kimi getting beat by Vettel. IMO opinion the grid is definitely weaker now than in 03. As I have said though we have the making of a good grid in a few years so not much to worry about. We've just been losing a few top 10 drivers in recent years.

4 Years later aged about 27 Kimi showed himself to be no quicker than Massa, we seem to have the need to make excuses for these supposedly better drivers.

Like I said the standouts were Schumacher, Alonso and Button, the 2021 grid will have Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo and that's a minimum of stand out drivers on the grid there could be and are probably more.


Come on, 2003 Kimi was really fast, probably I'd pick him over Ricciardo, it is absurd to suggest that Kimi was weak that year because he lost to Massa in 2008. With a bit of luck he could have been the 2003 WDC (beating a certain Schumacher) and no one would have any objections. The fact that Massa bested him later on is much like Button besting Hamilton in 2011, it does not make Hamilton a worse driver than him in general.

I think best to judge a driver over a career then a short period of time when circumstances happened to suit the driver.

For the rest I'm not sure that's how you compare drivers, is Rosberg the equal of Hamilton because he beat him one season out of 4?

Hamilton was intrisically faster than Button, Kimi and Massa were equal season after season, the only variance was luck.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:34 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Those scenarios are not the same for me.

Kimi and Massa were basically equal over 2007 and 2009 with Kimi better in the Wet. 2008 Massa was overall better. Overall pretty equal.

Hamilton was better than Button in all areas for 2.5 seasons with the exception of knowing the best time to change tyres in changing conditions. Button was better for half a season only, which coincided with Hamilton having 6 collisions in 9 races and a host of penalties and a mystery “illness” that he will spill the beans on after he retires. Everybody knows Hamilton was clearly better than Button, it was clear. Jenson grab a bunch of race wins by changing tyres at the exact right time.

The problem with Kimi is that 2003-2005 are the anomaly now, Webber beat Coulthard in the same way Kimi did in 03 and 04. Kimis 2005 was super impressive but JPM was new to the team, didn’t suit the car and injured himself.

The speed of 2003-2005 wasn’t visible at Sauber 01, Ferrari 07-09, Lotus 12-13, Ferrari 14, Ferrari 15-18 or Alfa 19. That’s 3 great seasons and 12 at a lower level in 3 different regulations and tyre types.


I know and I was clearly exaggerating regarding Button... It should have been clear.

Regarding Kimi, we are talking about 2003, which was the season mikeyg chose in his post. And in 2003, he was one of the best 3 drivers of the grid, unquestionably. To talk about his later career is pretty much shifting the goal posts in the context of that conversation, the focus was in 2002 and 2003. I agree that in the grand scheme that period is more of an anomaly now

Nobody would argue at that time Kimi was viewed in the top 3, the conversation was that the 2003 grid was brought forward as being better than the grid we weill see in 2021, in fact it went further than that with all the grids from 2003-2020 being better than the 2021 grid.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Those scenarios are not the same for me.

Kimi and Massa were basically equal over 2007 and 2009 with Kimi better in the Wet. 2008 Massa was overall better. Overall pretty equal.

Hamilton was better than Button in all areas for 2.5 seasons with the exception of knowing the best time to change tyres in changing conditions. Button was better for half a season only, which coincided with Hamilton having 6 collisions in 9 races and a host of penalties and a mystery “illness” that he will spill the beans on after he retires. Everybody knows Hamilton was clearly better than Button, it was clear. Jenson grab a bunch of race wins by changing tyres at the exact right time.

The problem with Kimi is that 2003-2005 are the anomaly now, Webber beat Coulthard in the same way Kimi did in 03 and 04. Kimis 2005 was super impressive but JPM was new to the team, didn’t suit the car and injured himself.

The speed of 2003-2005 wasn’t visible at Sauber 01, Ferrari 07-09, Lotus 12-13, Ferrari 14, Ferrari 15-18 or Alfa 19. That’s 3 great seasons and 12 at a lower level in 3 different regulations and tyre types.


I know and I was clearly exaggerating regarding Button... It should have been clear.

Regarding Kimi, we are talking about 2003, which was the season mikeyg chose in his post. And in 2003, he was one of the best 3 drivers of the grid, unquestionably. To talk about his later career is pretty much shifting the goal posts in the context of that conversation, the focus was in 2002 and 2003. I agree that in the grand scheme that period is more of an anomaly now


My point would be that not only would the 03 version of Kimi be in the top 3 on the 2003 grid he would be better than anyone bar Hamilton on the 2019 grid.

I think Verstappen would like a word, also it's a bit like saying the Vettel of 2010-2013 would still be dominating F1 unlike this different version we see now, it's a strange concept.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:48 pm 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I've only seen one person drive this narrative strongly and that's Mikey.


I agree that the grid is young and unproven, but hardly weak or one of the weakest since the dinosaurs. The general argumentation hasn't been very satisfying and is too results oriented. I'd sum up the grid (assuming Vettel is out) as somewhat unproven but dynamic and talented. There is already very little to doubt about the often outstanding qualities of Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc and, as stated, Norris and Russell forged their paths to F1 through some serious star quality through junior formulae.

What I would say is that not all the potential has been unlocked from a very young and talented crop of drivers, and that given a few years there could be a tremendous amount of top level talent on the grid, as other than perhaps Max and Carlos, these younger talents are yet to reach their prime. Perhaps Leclerc is close and can make more impressive strides in 2020...

But given the time for the younger generation to fully blossom, will the sport be without Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton? Hopefully Lewis sticks around and forces the young guns (or in a more distant vision, Ricciardo or Bottas) to rip the mantle away from him.

Mikey's been saying this since Alonso left F1, his feeling seems to be that no one on the present grid can shine his boots.


Hamilton is probably as good as Alonso at his best now. Obviously losing Alonso is going to make the grid weaker who could deny it? Same with Vettel.


I almost agree with this...with one caveat. I don't believe that there is an Alonso equal as a driver in the field today... not Hamilton, not Vettel, not Max. So of course, the field is somewhat weaker than it was with the Nando & Seb at strength. That is not to say that none of the youngsters will develop to a high level, only that they are not there now.

Those two drivers couldn't beat Hamilton, Leclerc and Ricciardo when given the chance, as for Ricciardo himself he basically ran away from Verstappen.

Alonso is not a Senna or Schumacher who basically could walk into any team because they were seen as a cut above the best.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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