planetf1.com

https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/05/14/br ... n-mclaren/

The season hasn’t started, and silly season has already begun!

I hope the rule changes give McLaren a winning car.

I never really follow a driver, but Ricciardo is just a likable driver both in and out of the car. He is a driver with enough talent to say that I wouldn't like to see him go through a career and never get a shot in championship capable machinery. Sadly, with the way F1 is now, it looks more likely than unlikely to happen.

There is the argument he should have stayed at Red Bull, but I think he was at risk of being Webber'd and jumped at the right time. I think it's clear (and not without merit) Red Bull have put most of their chips on Verstappen.

Amazing how Mclaren keep pleading poverty in order to gain government backing then sign one of the most expensive drivers on the grid

Zazu wrote:Amazing how Mclaren keep pleading poverty in order to gain government backing then sign one of the most expensive drivers on the grid

I would be guessing that it will be on reduced terms?

Could be a very good move for Dan.

The Ferrari seat would have been as a number 2, given how much Leclerc is being cemented as Ferrari's future. While their car will be capable of winning races some days, overall they have been inconsistent for a very long time.

McLaren made a huge leap in 2019, maybe they have done it again in 2020 (we are yet to find out). They will have Mercedes engines in 2021, so I could see them being a clear number 4 and potentially battling for podiums if not better next year. Speculation maybe, but it's a better shot than Renault in any case.

Then there are the rumours about Mercedes future. If they do exit the sport in a couple of years, McLaren could be a very good place to be.

How many years has danny ric signed upto at McLaren i wonder

ozf1nut1972 wrote:How many years has danny ric signed upto at McLaren i wonder

Daily mail reporting a 2 yr deal worth £15.5m a season.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... -deal.html

Jezza13 wrote:

ozf1nut1972 wrote:How many years has danny ric signed upto at McLaren i wonder

Daily mail reporting a 2 yr deal worth £15.5m a season.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... -deal.html

I just don't understand why McLaren are going to give Ricciardo that kind of money especially as I'm hearing that they are mortgaging some of their assets.

Rumours are that Vettel was only being offered $9M by Ferrari, maybe there's some truth in what some people say that Ricciardo tends to follow the money?

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

ozf1nut1972 wrote:How many years has danny ric signed upto at McLaren i wonder

Daily mail reporting a 2 yr deal worth £15.5m a season.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... -deal.html

I just don't understand why McLaren are going to give Ricciardo that kind of money especially as I'm hearing that they are mortgaging some of their assets.

Rumours are that Vettel was only being offered $9M by Ferrari, maybe there's some truth in what some people say that Ricciardo tends to follow the money?

I think that's a bit harsh. McLaren is a good move at the moment. At least you know they aren't just going to pull out.

I will say that as a British taxpayer, currently subsidising McLaren that it does somewhat stick in the throat that they don't have enough money to pay their staff without state aid but somehow have found the spare cash to pay Ricciardo 15 mill a year.

I mean, you could have perhaps been ethical and used that 30 mill to pay your staff and bring in someone like Hulkenberg for a fraction of the price.

Just good business decision though isn't it, since when has morality ever been displayed by multi million corporations. If it were Facebook, Google etc would be paying far more appropriate tax levels.

Option or Prime wrote:Just good business decision though isn't it, since when has morality ever been displayed by multi million corporations. If it were Facebook, Google etc would be paying far more appropriate tax levels.

I agree with you but notably other sports teams have been shamed out of it.

I guess that while I understand it happens I don't have to like it.

Option or Prime wrote:Just good business decision though isn't it, since when has morality ever been displayed by multi million corporations. If it were Facebook, Google etc would be paying far more appropriate tax levels.

Not sure it's that good a business... Looking at the current state of F1, the current (and future) economical state of the world and the fog the whole world is facing, McLaren could have got Ricciardo for less than 1/5 of the sum (supposing the numbers are true), may be even a lot less.
Especially if Ricciardo was that eager to leave Renault (well if he was really desperate to join McLaren, they could get him for free if not as pay driver ).

mikeyg123 wrote:I will say that as a British taxpayer, currently subsidising McLaren that it does somewhat stick in the throat that they don't have enough money to pay their staff without state aid but somehow have found the spare cash to pay Ricciardo 15 mill a year.

I mean, you could have perhaps been ethical and used that 30 mill to pay your staff and bring in someone like Hulkenberg for a fraction of the price.

I doubt that $30m was just sitting around and available to be spent however they wanted. More likely their backers agreed to pump in an extra $30m if they could get Ricciardo, but would certainly not have written that check for the workers or Hulk.

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:I will say that as a British taxpayer, currently subsidising McLaren that it does somewhat stick in the throat that they don't have enough money to pay their staff without state aid but somehow have found the spare cash to pay Ricciardo 15 mill a year.

I mean, you could have perhaps been ethical and used that 30 mill to pay your staff and bring in someone like Hulkenberg for a fraction of the price.

I doubt that $30m was just sitting around and available to be spent however they wanted. More likely their backers agreed to pump in an extra $30m if they could get Ricciardo, but would certainly not have written that check for the workers or Hulk.

That is kind of my point.

99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

When Verstappen was a child with just a single season of car racing under his belt.

Why look at baby Verstappen when we can compare them against more recently against fully developed Hulk?

mikeyg123 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

When Verstappen was a child with just a single season of car racing under his belt.

Why look at baby Verstappen when we can compare them against more recently against fully developed Hulk?

His (family's) choice.
F1 is not kindergarten.
It is not like Sainz is 40, is he? He was still a F1 rookie or that tag is only valid for Norris to devalue Sainz Jr. Performance?

HUL was always there with RIC.. Everybody expected a gap between them during the races but there was none.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

ozf1nut1972 wrote:How many years has danny ric signed upto at McLaren i wonder

Daily mail reporting a 2 yr deal worth £15.5m a season.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... -deal.html

I just don't understand why McLaren are going to give Ricciardo that kind of money especially as I'm hearing that they are mortgaging some of their assets.

Rumours are that Vettel was only being offered $9M by Ferrari, maybe there's some truth in what some people say that Ricciardo tends to follow the money?

I think that's a bit harsh. McLaren is a good move at the moment. At least you know they aren't just going to pull out.

I will say that as a British taxpayer, currently subsidising McLaren that it does somewhat stick in the throat that they don't have enough money to pay their staff without state aid but somehow have found the spare cash to pay Ricciardo 15 mill a year.

I mean, you could have perhaps been ethical and used that 30 mill to pay your staff and bring in someone like Hulkenberg for a fraction of the price.

No I didn't say it wasn't a good move for Ricciardo, I was just questioning the amount of money he's going to be paid.

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

Sainz looked better against a 17 year old Verstappen, more recently he looked worse against the Hulk.

What's interesting is that McLaren were in discusions with Ricciardo for months, so who were they going to drop Sainz or Norris?

Pullrod wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

When Verstappen was a child with just a single season of car racing under his belt.

Why look at baby Verstappen when we can compare them against more recently against fully developed Hulk?

His (family's) choice.
F1 is not kindergarten.
It is not like Sainz is 40, is he? He was still a F1 rookie or that tag is only valid for Norris to devalue Sainz Jr. Performance?

HUL was always there with RIC.. Everybody expected a gap between them during the races but there was none.

I'm just wondering on what planet did Ricciardo not convincingly beat the Hulk?

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

Sainz looked better against a 17 year old Verstappen, more recently he looked worse against the Hulk.

What's interesting is that McLaren were in discusions with Ricciardo for months, so who were they going to drop Sainz or Norris?

I am confident you got it wrong mate.
McLaren knew months ago that Ferrari was talking to Sainz Jr., so they talked to Ricciardo to take Sainz's seat IF he was going to Ferrari.

Yes, they also had talks with Ricciardo years ago, but that's when he was leaving RedBull, but the Australian didn't buy into the McLaren project and instead picked Renault. Only then, McLaren signed Sainz. This is the only time Ricciardo was McLaren 1st choice, so around 2018.

The fact is they were not expecting Sainz to be this fast and reliable. Seidl, Brown said this months ago. They were happy with him as a driver and wanted to extend his contract.

Just check on Youtube, all the interviews with Brown are there.

Pullrod wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

Sainz looked better against a 17 year old Verstappen, more recently he looked worse against the Hulk.

What's interesting is that McLaren were in discusions with Ricciardo for months, so who were they going to drop Sainz or Norris?

I am confident you got it wrong mate.
McLaren knew months ago that Ferrari was talking to Sainz Jr., so they talked to Ricciardo to take Sainz's seat IF he was going to Ferrari.

Yes, they also had talks with Ricciardo years ago, but that's when he was leaving RedBull, but the Australian didn't buy into the McLaren project and instead picked Renault. Only then, McLaren signed Sainz. This is the only time Ricciardo was McLaren 1st choice, so around 2018.

The fact is they were not expecting Sainz to be this fast and reliable. Seidl, Brown said this months ago. They were happy with him as a driver and wanted to extend his contract.

Just check on Youtube, all the interviews with Brown are there.

I've heard 2 versions but on reflection the version you put forward is probably the correct one.

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

When Verstappen was a child with just a single season of car racing under his belt.

Why look at baby Verstappen when we can compare them against more recently against fully developed Hulk?

His (family's) choice.
F1 is not kindergarten.
It is not like Sainz is 40, is he? He was still a F1 rookie or that tag is only valid for Norris to devalue Sainz Jr. Performance?

HUL was always there with RIC.. Everybody expected a gap between them during the races but there was none.

I'm just wondering on what planet did Ricciardo not convincingly beat the Hulk?

Just check the points right at the middle of the season.
They were the most evenly matched pair of the grid. Also check the gap they had at the end of the races to each other.
He didn't convincingly beat Hulkenberg. The whole thing fell apart for Hulkenberg when it was clear it was his last year.

I already knew Ricciardo was not as talented as people wanted us to believe so I was not surprised. And his failed dive bombs attempts just reminded us how good was the RedBull downforce and handling, the type of car Sainz has NEVER driven in his life.

So before passing judgement on the Spaniard, give him a few seasons in a Top Team.

Pullrod wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

When Verstappen was a child with just a single season of car racing under his belt.

Why look at baby Verstappen when we can compare them against more recently against fully developed Hulk?

His (family's) choice.
F1 is not kindergarten.
It is not like Sainz is 40, is he? He was still a F1 rookie or that tag is only valid for Norris to devalue Sainz Jr. Performance?

HUL was always there with RIC.. Everybody expected a gap between them during the races but there was none.

I'm just wondering on what planet did Ricciardo not convincingly beat the Hulk?

Just check the points right at the middle of the season.
They were the most evenly matched pair of the grid. Also check the gap they had at the end of the races to each other.
He didn't convincingly beat Hulkenberg. The whole thing fell apart for Hulkenberg when it was clear it was his last year.

I already knew Ricciardo was not as talented as people wanted us to believe so I was not surprised. And his failed dive bombs attempts just reminded us how good was the RedBull downforce and handling, the type of car Sainz has NEVER driven in his life.

So before passing judgement on the Spaniard, give him a few seasons in a Top Team.

The points would have been close in part to Ricciardo making a slow start to the season and the cars were initially unreliable, the stats are as such:-

WDC Points
9. Ricciardo 54 > 37 Hulk 14.

Qualifying
Ricciardo 13 > 7 Hulk

Head 2 Head when both finished
Ricciardo 10 > 4 Hulk

Onto Sainz:-

WDC Points
7. Hulk 69 > 53 Sainz 10.

Qualifying
Hulk 12 > 5 Sainz

Head 2 Head when both finished
Hulk 7 > 5 Sainz

We can see that Sainz was stronger in the races than qualifying like we saw last year against Norris. Arguments about the car being harder to score points with towards the end of the season make no difference to qualifying.

Also when you look at the 2 sets of results it doesn't really look like Ricciardo is the overated driver and Sainz the upcoming star of F1.

He goes up against Leclerc who just beat a 4xWDC in qualifying and you think this will not be an issue for him?

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: When Verstappen was a child with just a single season of car racing under his belt.

Why look at baby Verstappen when we can compare them against more recently against fully developed Hulk?

His (family's) choice.
F1 is not kindergarten.
It is not like Sainz is 40, is he? He was still a F1 rookie or that tag is only valid for Norris to devalue Sainz Jr. Performance?

HUL was always there with RIC.. Everybody expected a gap between them during the races but there was none.

I'm just wondering on what planet did Ricciardo not convincingly beat the Hulk?

Just check the points right at the middle of the season.
They were the most evenly matched pair of the grid. Also check the gap they had at the end of the races to each other.
He didn't convincingly beat Hulkenberg. The whole thing fell apart for Hulkenberg when it was clear it was his last year.

I already knew Ricciardo was not as talented as people wanted us to believe so I was not surprised. And his failed dive bombs attempts just reminded us how good was the RedBull downforce and handling, the type of car Sainz has NEVER driven in his life.

So before passing judgement on the Spaniard, give him a few seasons in a Top Team.

The points would have been close in part to Ricciardo making a slow start to the season and the cars were initially unreliable, the stats are as such:-

WDC Points
9. Ricciardo 54 > 37 Hulk 14.

Qualifying
Ricciardo 13 > 7 Hulk

Head 2 Head when both finished
Ricciardo 10 > 4 Hulk

Onto Sainz:-

WDC Points
7. Hulk 69 > 53 Sainz 10.

Qualifying
Hulk 12 > 5 Sainz

Head 2 Head when both finished
Hulk 7 > 5 Sainz

We can see that Sainz was stronger in the races than qualifying like we saw last year against Norris. Arguments about the car being harder to score points with towards the end of the season make no difference to qualifying.

Also when you look at the 2 sets of results it doesn't really look like Ricciardo is the overated driver and Sainz the upcoming star of F1.

He goes up against Leclerc who just beat a 4xWDC in qualifying and you think this will not be an issue for him?

Good effort.

There are many drivers who are much stronger in races than in qualifying. It's Lewis Hamilton's secret weapon despite his many poles, and Valentino Rossi is/was just the same.

After 3 races, Sainz already had a deficit of 19 points(!!) and by mid season(after Hungary) the deficit to Hulkenberg was 22 points.

If you consider that he managed to claw back a few points to finish at -16 despite his realibility problems(Hulkenberg had problems too but Sainz's were worse) it can only means that his 2nd half was stronger. This while he was leaving the team so he surely was not the one with favourable strategies, at best equal.

What I wanted to say was that the speed RIC showed in qualifying was not there in the races and many times he was caught by Hulkenberg.
Sainz was the opposite. He was much faster in the races and when it happened Hulkenberg could not keep up.

2018 Sainz's season was easily his worst. It is a shame there could not be a repeat as I am sure he would have performed much better.

Pullrod wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:99% of the F1 world is convinced RIC is an upgrade.

Disregarding points, but looking only at raw speed and race pace, SAI has been more impressive vs VER than RIC.
Qualifying, race and wet.

We will understand many things at the end of the 2021 season. And I personally think It will not be what many people suspect.

When Verstappen was a child with just a single season of car racing under his belt.

Why look at baby Verstappen when we can compare them against more recently against fully developed Hulk?

His (family's) choice.
F1 is not kindergarten.
It is not like Sainz is 40, is he? He was still a F1 rookie or that tag is only valid for Norris to devalue Sainz Jr. Performance?

HUL was always there with RIC.. Everybody expected a gap between them during the races but there was none.

The point is Sainz was vastly more experienced than Verstappen. Had he not been at least equal to him it would have been utterly damming. Drivers almost always improve from their rookie seasons. Norris was already as quick as him in 2019. If we get a 2020 I would expect Norris to look the better driver.

Pullrod wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Pullrod wrote: His (family's) choice.
F1 is not kindergarten.
It is not like Sainz is 40, is he? He was still a F1 rookie or that tag is only valid for Norris to devalue Sainz Jr. Performance?

HUL was always there with RIC.. Everybody expected a gap between them during the races but there was none.

I'm just wondering on what planet did Ricciardo not convincingly beat the Hulk?

Just check the points right at the middle of the season.
They were the most evenly matched pair of the grid. Also check the gap they had at the end of the races to each other.
He didn't convincingly beat Hulkenberg. The whole thing fell apart for Hulkenberg when it was clear it was his last year.

I already knew Ricciardo was not as talented as people wanted us to believe so I was not surprised. And his failed dive bombs attempts just reminded us how good was the RedBull downforce and handling, the type of car Sainz has NEVER driven in his life.

So before passing judgement on the Spaniard, give him a few seasons in a Top Team.

The points would have been close in part to Ricciardo making a slow start to the season and the cars were initially unreliable, the stats are as such:-

WDC Points
9. Ricciardo 54 > 37 Hulk 14.

Qualifying
Ricciardo 13 > 7 Hulk

Head 2 Head when both finished
Ricciardo 10 > 4 Hulk

Onto Sainz:-

WDC Points
7. Hulk 69 > 53 Sainz 10.

Qualifying
Hulk 12 > 5 Sainz

Head 2 Head when both finished
Hulk 7 > 5 Sainz

We can see that Sainz was stronger in the races than qualifying like we saw last year against Norris. Arguments about the car being harder to score points with towards the end of the season make no difference to qualifying.

Also when you look at the 2 sets of results it doesn't really look like Ricciardo is the overated driver and Sainz the upcoming star of F1.

He goes up against Leclerc who just beat a 4xWDC in qualifying and you think this will not be an issue for him?

Good effort.

There are many drivers who are much stronger in races than in qualifying. It's Lewis Hamilton's secret weapon despite his many poles, and Valentino Rossi is/was just the same.

After 3 races, Sainz already had a deficit of 19 points(!!) and by mid season(after Hungary) the deficit to Hulkenberg was 22 points.

If you consider that he managed to claw back a few points to finish at -16 despite his realibility problems(Hulkenberg had problems too but Sainz's were worse) it can only means that his 2nd half was stronger. This while he was leaving the team so he surely was not the one with favourable strategies, at best equal.

What I wanted to say was that the speed RIC showed in qualifying was not there in the races and many times he was caught by Hulkenberg.
Sainz was the opposite. He was much faster in the races and when it happened Hulkenberg could not keep up.

2018 Sainz's season was easily his worst. It is a shame there could not be a repeat as I am sure he would have performed much better.

I didn't watch the match ups as closely as you did but in essence you've just explained the problems of playing catch up when you don't qualify well, you're always playing catch up and if you don't catch and pass then you lose.

In 2018 it was the first time Sainz got matched up against a tier 2 driver and isn't it strange how it gets explained as Sainz's worse season, Vettel looked like a world beater until he got matched up against Ricciardo and Leclerc.

The issue on value for money is also about whether the driver scores points - which can be worth a lot to teams

It's clear DR was the priority for McLaren in 2016 - but their history for the years prior was what made DR go for the works team

It's not clear Renault (or Merc) will stay the course - and while I think that DR would do better for Ferrari than CS - I do think Carlos is a solid driver - but will be consigned to second place by Le Clerk - whereas DR may have been able to change that dynamic - by pure perfomance - anyway, we'll never know

In an interview with CNN Sport's Amanda Davies, Ricciardo says he'd been having ongoing talks with Ferrari up until the decision to join McLaren. Throughout his career the 30-year-old Australian has continually been linked with a move to the Italian team.
"There have been discussions already from a few years back. And that continued all the way through to now," said Ricciardo. "So yeah, I won't deny that. But obviously it's never really come to fruition."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/moto ... index.html

Covalent wrote:In an interview with CNN Sport's Amanda Davies, Ricciardo says he'd been having ongoing talks with Ferrari up until the decision to join McLaren. Throughout his career the 30-year-old Australian has continually been linked with a move to the Italian team.
"There have been discussions already from a few years back. And that continued all the way through to now," said Ricciardo. "So yeah, I won't deny that. But obviously it's never really come to fruition."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/moto ... index.html

What a missed opportunity for Ferrari, to have an experienced and relatively young top drawer driver along Leclerc. Obviously we do not know the specifics and how the talks went (well, South obviously!), but I'd prefer him for the other Ferrari seat.

But let's give Sainz a chance too, it is also exciting to have him fill the other seat

F1Oz wrote:The issue on value for money is also about whether the driver scores points - which can be worth a lot to teams

It's clear DR was the priority for McLaren in 2016 - but their history for the years prior was what made DR go for the works team

It's not clear Renault (or Merc) will stay the course - and while I think that DR would do better for Ferrari than CS - I do think Carlos is a solid driver - but will be consigned to second place by Le Clerk - whereas DR may have been able to change that dynamic - by pure perfomance - anyway, we'll never know

Indeed the only reason you sign a weaker driver is for a #1 and #2 driver policy.