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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:04 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel supposedly turned down a McLaren offer. It's Mercedes or retirement for him allegedly.

All I can think is that, what would Mclaren gain by replacing Sainz with Vettel? In Sainz & Norris Mclaren clearly have had a pair that gets along well together. Who knows what happens, if you put Vettel against Norris. Also, surely signing Vettel will not be cheap, and Mclaren's budget is not anymore what it used to be.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:04 am 
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froze wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel supposedly turned down a McLaren offer. It's Mercedes or retirement for him allegedly.

All I can think is that, what would Mclaren gain by replacing Sainz with Vettel? In Sainz & Norris Mclaren clearly have had a pair that gets along well together. Who knows what happens, if you put Vettel against Norris. Also, surely signing Vettel will not be cheap, and Mclaren's budget is not anymore what it used to be.


It looks like McLaren will no longer have Sainz.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:07 am 
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.

ANY idea that Mercedes would want Vettel alongside Hamilton is lunacy. Vettel has shown himself petty when it comes to both teammate and opponents, including a direct attack on Hamilton and lots of attacks on Mercedes suspensions.

After Alonso, Vettel is just NOT a sensible option.

--------

As for LeClerc, I am surprised with almost all people commenting are indicating that he has to be THE nominated number One. As a young, ambitious driver I would have thought that he would have welcomed having direct competition.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:10 am 
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McLaren confirm Ricciardo for next season. Ferrari haven't yet announced Sainz. I think they're having a lie in this morning.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:13 am 
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Here's the confirmation:



I've very happy, one of my favourite drivers at my favourite team.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:22 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I'm a bit surprised Sainz would accept the number 2 role, but perhaps he sees possibilities I don't. Good luck to him though!

My feeling was that Ricciardo was going to learn to speak Italian. Clearly CoViD-19 is playing havoc with me. :)


I thought he does speak Italian, isn't he part Italian or something?


He clearly demonstrated it to Max in the past though:

https://www.facebook.com/F1trollsandnew ... 553098666/

(It is a joke of course!)
:lol: He is of Italian descent, but I remember someone asking him why he mispronounced his own name. It's not uncommon of course, saying it the way all those around you do. Perhaps he has been working on his Italian, the readiness is all, as Hamlet said.*

Best wishes to Sainz and to Ricciardo. May they both do well!

(No, I don't mean Magnussen this time! :D )

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:35 am 
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Ferrari have confirmed Sainz.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 10:30 am 
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The most underwhelming mass driver switch I can ever remember... unless Vettel goes to Mercedes that is.
Ricciardo should have been in the Ferrari


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 10:44 am 
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Barring Leclerc or miraculously Sainz pinching the 2020 title (if we end up getting a season), 2021 will be the first time since 2007 that Ferrari starts a season with no world championship winning driver in the team.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:15 am 
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Curious how good Sainz actually is. Whilst I think he has a reputation as being a good midfielder, I could see him turning out to be a bit of a Rosberg (ie somebody who whilst not absolutely top tier, showed that he wasn't far away from that level when he had the chance to prove it), but I guess 2021 will answer some questions there.

Certainly for Vettel, if Sainz goes to Ferrari and matches or near matches Leclerc, well that isn't good for his legacy.

Vettel looks and sounds like a driver who needs a fresh start somewhere, either that or retirement beckons. The relationship with Ferrari has ran its course, and doing neither any favours.

I still think if you can give Seb the car and environment where he can flourish, he will flourish - but he is now standing in a corridor with a lot of closed doors, and I am not sure that any of the few that are open lead anywhere but to a dead end. That situation may well change, but it isn't looking great for Sebs career as a tier 1 driver.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:15 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The most underwhelming mass driver switch I can ever remember... unless Vettel goes to Mercedes that is.
Ricciardo should have been in the Ferrari


Maybe, just maybe, top teams are looking more at current and future potential over someone who has 1 or more WDCs and demands a crazy amount of money, even if they're not at the top of their game at present.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:56 pm 
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On a separate note, it seems that it was Vettel that leaked the story and forced Ferrari's hand to make this public at this point:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59462/-v ... ease-.html

Obviously the talks with Sainz were happening for months now, but the timing was forced by Vettel. Only he knows why and what he is going to do now


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:57 pm 
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i just don't get sainz. maybe he is cheap, maybe ferrari want a clear 1 and 2, i don't know ?

i, like others, thought vettel was ready for a new team and vibe. now, he may just disappear at home, where he seems to like to live a quiet life. will miss him on the grid, but if retirement is what he wants, good for him.

interesting that verstappen was never really mentioned as a possibility at ferrari. that ought to sting ferrari a bit and make someone finally realize they need to step it up.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:59 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Barring Leclerc or miraculously Sainz pinching the 2020 title (if we end up getting a season), 2021 will be the first time since 2007 that Ferrari starts a season with no world championship winning driver in the team.

Remember what happened that year?

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 1:14 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Barring Leclerc or miraculously Sainz pinching the 2020 title (if we end up getting a season), 2021 will be the first time since 2007 that Ferrari starts a season with no world championship winning driver in the team.

Remember what happened that year?


Soooo, Alonso to Mercedes and implosion???

:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 6:37 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
On a separate note, it seems that it was Vettel that leaked the story and forced Ferrari's hand to make this public at this point: .....

.

Petulant doesn't do him justice.

.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 6:58 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
On a separate note, it seems that it was Vettel that leaked the story and forced Ferrari's hand to make this public at this point:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59462/-v ... ease-.html

Obviously the talks with Sainz were happening for months now, but the timing was forced by Vettel. Only he knows why and what he is going to do now


I guess it's his announcement to make as much as Ferrari's really.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Charles LeBrad wrote:
Found this comparison interesting

Image
Source: Reddit

Yeah I was aware the stats were very similar, but then factor in that Vettel had the better cars and Alonso came a hair's breadth fom winning 2 titles whilst Vettel came nowhere close, I think Alonso did the better job.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:31 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
It has become increasingly clear that Ferrari is incapable of putting together a winning car. Charles won 2 races last year and that is held up as the brilliant standard for Ferrari. I have no regrets about Seb leaving the Italian team behind. McLaren is due for a rise, I hope he pops over there if he actually leaves.

On the other hand, I would not be at all shocked if Vettel retires. And that sad part about that is, if he did, I doubt he'd ever be persuaded to return. And why should he? 4 time world champion is nothing to sniff at. I'm good whatever he decides, though of course, I hope he continues.


Yes, Ferrari have gone one full season (2019) without producing a car capable of the title.

Short memory, the 2018 Ferrari won 6 races and should have won nearly as many again if not for mainly driver errors on Vettels part, bad luck and team errors.

pokerman wrote:
There wasn't that much wrong with the Ferrari cars in 2017 and 2018, we seem to be totally forgetting all of Vettel's mistakes.


Bad luck, team errors and driver mistakes are a part of F1. Let's face it, when you are a champion nobody remembers your errors, the bad luck of the team or your car troubles. That only happens when you lose. In any case....that's racing.

Anyway, I don't want to have a long discussion on the topic. I don't really mind if people blame Seb and hold Ferrari less blameworthy than I do. In the end, I dig watching Seb race - always have. But if he leaves, he will leave his fans with some kick memories. 2008, 2010-2013 were awesome fun. I would that every year was like 2010, whoever the winner.

Indeed but when a driver throws away 100 points in a season with driver errors that's enough in itself to derail a season.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:43 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
This article is a pretty complete history of Vettel at Ferrari. When strung together you realise there was a history of slip ups.

Excellent article. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:48 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I'm a bit surprised Sainz would accept the number 2 role, but perhaps he sees possibilities I don't. Good luck to him though!

My feeling was that Ricciardo was going to learn to speak Italian. Clearly CoViD-19 is playing havoc with me. :)


I thought he does speak Italian, isn't he part Italian or something?


He clearly demonstrated it to Max in the past though:

https://www.facebook.com/F1trollsandnew ... 553098666/

(It is a joke of course!)

His parents are Italian I believe?

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:50 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel supposedly turned down a McLaren offer. It's Mercedes or retirement for him allegedly.

I ventured that myself, I can't see him wanting to drive for a midfield team.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:54 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The most underwhelming mass driver switch I can ever remember... unless Vettel goes to Mercedes that is.
Ricciardo should have been in the Ferrari

#1 and #2 driver policy similar to Mercedes and Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:57 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Barring Leclerc or miraculously Sainz pinching the 2020 title (if we end up getting a season), 2021 will be the first time since 2007 that Ferrari starts a season with no world championship winning driver in the team.

Remember what happened that year?

Yeah Ferrari built the best car.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel supposedly turned down a McLaren offer. It's Mercedes or retirement for him allegedly.

I ventured that myself, I can't see him wanting to drive for a midfield team.


Yup. Mercedes or out...with a 10% chance on Alfa Romeo.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:45 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
On a separate note, it seems that it was Vettel that leaked the story and forced Ferrari's hand to make this public at this point:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59462/-v ... ease-.html

Obviously the talks with Sainz were happening for months now, but the timing was forced by Vettel. Only he knows why and what he is going to do now


I guess it's his announcement to make as much as Ferrari's really.


Of course, but if he didn't announce it, rather leaked it to the press, then it seems a bit petulant. Especially as he mentioned that they made him a sh*t offer, a joke (I can't remember the wording, but to that effect), instead of being the bigger person and just say thank you and part ways.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:08 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
On a separate note, it seems that it was Vettel that leaked the story and forced Ferrari's hand to make this public at this point:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59462/-v ... ease-.html

Obviously the talks with Sainz were happening for months now, but the timing was forced by Vettel. Only he knows why and what he is going to do now


I guess it's his announcement to make as much as Ferrari's really.


Of course, but if he didn't announce it, rather leaked it to the press, then it seems a bit petulant. Especially as he mentioned that they made him a sh*t offer, a joke (I can't remember the wording, but to that effect), instead of being the bigger person and just say thank you and part ways.


Yeah, I agree it depends but I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. If a journalist happened to call him and ask him the question then I don't blame him for answering it honestly. If he deliberately approached the journalist to try and cause trouble then that is a different story.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:50 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel supposedly turned down a McLaren offer. It's Mercedes or retirement for him allegedly.

I ventured that myself, I can't see him wanting to drive for a midfield team.


Yup. Mercedes or out...with a 10% chance on Alfa Romeo.


Would you rule out Alpha Tauri? Their driver line-up isn't great, and I'm sure they'd love to have Seb back in the team. It would give Vettel a good chance of remaining in the fringes of the top teams, in what was actually a very decent car last year.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 9:13 am 
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There is talk that one of the reasons for Vettel leaving is that he'd have been asked to take on more of a second driver role, but what if the offer was merely performance based and Vettel simply didn't want to fight on even footing?


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:06 am 
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Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.

Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.

Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?


He was not sacked. His ending contract was now renewed, which is not the same thing.
I always considered Vettel as overrated, so I may not be the right person to comment this, but why should Ferrari offer another contract to an expensive driver they may consider as "not necessary anymore" ?

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.

Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?


It might not be this simple as he might be keeping his options open, but if Vettel wanted to retire he could have just announced that.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.

Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?


He was not sacked. His ending contract was now renewed, which is not the same thing.
I always considered Vettel as overrated, so I may not be the right person to comment this, but why should Ferrari offer another contract to an expensive driver they may consider as "not necessary anymore" ?

This has to be semantics about the word sacked, you can only be sacked mid contract?

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 2:49 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.

Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?


It might not be this simple as he might be keeping his options open, but if Vettel wanted to retire he could have just announced that.

Given that reports say he has since been turned down by Red Bull and McLaren I would say he's probably not looking to retire.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.

Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?


He was not sacked. His ending contract was now renewed, which is not the same thing.
I always considered Vettel as overrated, so I may not be the right person to comment this, but why should Ferrari offer another contract to an expensive driver they may consider as "not necessary anymore" ?

This has to be semantics about the word sacked, you can only be sacked mid contract?


Obviously. You can't be sacked from a job you didn't have. Even in sports the terminology "sacked" isn't used for someone out of contract.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well forget that...

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... -contract/

Vettel was never offered a contract and terms with Sainz were agreed well in advance, according to this article.

Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?


He was not sacked. His ending contract was now renewed, which is not the same thing.
I always considered Vettel as overrated, so I may not be the right person to comment this, but why should Ferrari offer another contract to an expensive driver they may consider as "not necessary anymore" ?

This has to be semantics about the word sacked, you can only be sacked mid contract?


Obviously. You can't be sacked from a job you didn't have. Even in sports the terminology "sacked" isn't used for someone out of contract.

What I see is using the term like you might in an every day job, not having your contract renewed in F1 is the equivalent to being sacked.

However with Vettel I hear conflicting stories whether Ferrari let him go or he simply left.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 12:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
What I see is using the term like you might in an every day job, not having your contract renewed in F1 is the equivalent to being sacked.

However with Vettel I hear conflicting stories whether Ferrari let him go or he simply left.

This is giving me flashbacks to when Alonso left Ferrari and we had people claiming he was fired...

Vettel may have forced himself out by refusing to take the offer Ferrari gave him, but there's nothing to indicate he was shown the door.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 5:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I came here to post the same thing, it's looking like Vettel was sacked. 8O

That being the case it might not be Vettel's wish to retire?


He was not sacked. His ending contract was now renewed, which is not the same thing.
I always considered Vettel as overrated, so I may not be the right person to comment this, but why should Ferrari offer another contract to an expensive driver they may consider as "not necessary anymore" ?

This has to be semantics about the word sacked, you can only be sacked mid contract?


Obviously. You can't be sacked from a job you didn't have. Even in sports the terminology "sacked" isn't used for someone out of contract.

What I see is using the term like you might in an every day job, not having your contract renewed in F1 is the equivalent to being sacked.

However with Vettel I hear conflicting stories whether Ferrari let him go or he simply left.


No, it is absolutely not the equivalent of being sacked. You can be sacked in F1. If a team chooses to break contract and pay you off so they can hire someone else. A team signing a different driver to drive for them after the contract has expired can in no way be held as an equivalence to someone being sacked from a job. It's not termonalgy used in any other sport and for good reason.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 8:47 am 
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IF the reports are true, then it SEEMS that Ferrari gave Vettel a difficult choice, accept extremely reduced salary or leave.

Considering Vettel's known foibles, to me that means that Ferrari "forced" Vettel out (he would not be willing to submit to the humiliation) other may say that Ferrari just made a commercially realistic offer of employment to Vettel and he "chose" to take his services elsewhere.

So many options to choose from - so many wordings to choose from.

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